Ultrasonic Cleaner

[Paully]

Don't know if anyone has built one here, but this just looks too cool for words.

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/106/1060774.html

[matthewmckay]

I am not convince that this is a good idea...  I remember going to a seminar a few months ago that talked about the "cavitation" effect in solvent micro-environments where tremendous heat and pressure are generated in solution from the collapse of tiny air pockets in the presence of ultrasonic waves. 

This article explains the phenomenon in detail, and states the temperatures in these micro-environments can reach 5000 K and generate 500 atm of pressure...  I would think this would be pretty hard on the surface of your vinyl.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.springer.com%2Fcda%2Fcontent%2Fdocument%2Fcda_downloaddocument%2F9789400755321-c2.pdf%3FSGWID%3D0-0-45-1355489-p174602938&ei=XiBDUvfLF_KA2QW4y4DYCA&usg=AFQjCNGybeSKIv_CqvpkTu86V8JuQfcCCw


looked into it some more, here is an interesting thread on vinyl wear at vinylengine

http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?p=79690


from one of the posts

-   10. Bastiaans, Factors effecting the stylus/groove relationship in
phonograph playback systems, J. of Audio Eng. Soc. 1967, p.389

Yield point of record plastics = 14,500 psi. He refers to older papers
saying that in the stylus/groove contact, sub surface yielding begins near a load of 0.150 gr and plastic yielding at 1 1.6 gr (for a 17.8 mil tip). Microscopic examination of a groove played with 2 gr VTF revealed a slight permanent indentation track on both groove walls.

-  All styli present pressures of 30.000 to 69.000 psi with a VTF of 1 gr.
These high pressures have led people to assume that plastic or permanent deformation occurs, the yield point of the vinyl being 14.500 psi. Static indentations in the elastic range can be described by the equation of Hertz.
It appears that no solution exists for the plastic range, especially for
sliding indentation with friction.


...not sure what to think now.  maybe it wouldn't be any worse than just playing the record.

[Paully]

I have seen some discussion on what you are saying, and certainly don't have an answer.  Some in the thread thought it would be like a sand blaster.  The cavitation effect was supposed to be greatly reduced by using a 60 vs a 40 kHz machine.  Don't know.  Before and after microscopic pictures would sure be interesting.

[Doc B.]

I suspect it's all about the watts. I've had some inexpensive low wattage ultrasonic cleaners and the last thing I worried about was damaging anything - the main concern was whether it was actually cleaning anything. In fact since I was cleaning metal parts I resorted to using naptha in the tub just to boost the solvent effect. So I would guess that as long as the wattage is not too high everything would be fine.

Klaus Heyne uses distilled water in an ultrasonic cleaner to clean very delicate microphone capsules.

[Grainger49]

Very interesting.  I have an idea of where this is going....

G.

[Paully]

Bet you do!

[4krow]

  Doc,

 Thank you for hitting the nail on the head! Now if the military were involved, I would have deep concerns! But under the right pressure/wattage, and with the right cleaner, I can think of nothing better than this concept. There are always considerations to make, but in this case, I feel that it is better than dragging a brush and grime over the grooves( I wonder what microscopic is on the bristle to groove contact?).

[Paully]

There is a specific model that everyone seeks to be using because they are gung ho on the 60kHz, will have to look at the watts which isn't something I paid attention to.  But entry isn't cheap, around $520 just for the cleaner and then you go from there for the motor to make it rotate and then the chassis for turning your records like a rotisserie chicken in the unit.  Wonder if there's enough Interest for an enterprising soul to start making these as an aftermarket add-on.  But in the end it is over the cost of the tried and true VPI 16.5 to play around with this.

This might end up being a Christmas thing, if I do it.

[Grainger49]

I think someone in the thread linked to someone selling units he makes. 

But I bet the price is high!

[Paully]

I think they range from $2K to $4K?

[4krow]

  Yah, I read somewhere about one for over $4K! No freaking way would this be a deal, whether it works or not. Come on now, what IS it worth compared to the 16.5 as previously mentioned?

[2wo]

"This article explains the phenomenon in detail, and states the temperatures in these micro-environments can reach 5000 K and generate 500 atm of pressure...  I would think this would be pretty hard on the surface of your vinyl."

Now think about the contact area of your stylus with a few grams on top of it. How does that work out in Kilos per cm2, now drag it along, get a little heat going ...John

[matthewmckay]

for sure.. now we just have to figure out how exposure time would fit into the equation.  I know that laboratory glassware will get pretty hot after after sitting for a few minutes in a low power sonicator.

so which would is more detrimental, a single pass with the needle, or six minutes of sonics? 

...  I have no idea, way out of my element here.

[Grainger49]

   .  .  .    "the temperatures in these micro-environments can reach 5000 K   .  .  .  .  .   

Hmmmm.... 5000 kelvin = 8540.33 degree Fahrenheit.  Wouldn't the LPs melt looking like the clock in a Salvador Dali print?  Or alternatively the water would instantly flash  to steam and burn your face off.

I am wondering about the quote. 

[Doc B.]

Yeah 5000K is pretty near sun hot. One has to be careful about carelessly tossed figures. It might be that there is 5000K at some intraatomic distance or something as a photon is shot off.  But I hardly think your ultrasonic cleaner will turn an LP into a black hole...