Looking For Experience With Specific Caps

[Grainger49]

I guess this is the forum since it is for Bottlehead kits in general.  And, sorry to Doc for another cap question.

I am considering a birthday present purchase.  I am looking at the Mundorf Silver/Oil and the Cardas caps.  I will use them for final output caps in a Bottlehead kit.

Anyone with experience with either or both please give me your listening opinions on them.

Thanks in advance!

[dmcgown]

I find the Mundorf Silver and Oils to be a clean sounding, detailed and very slightly on the warm side of neutral.  It is one of my personal favorites as a coupling cap without going further into exotica such as the VCap teflons.  The VCap OIMP is a personal favorite that I like better than the Mundorf SIO, once it is broken in it seems to have better low level resolution than the Mundorf, and is more open and slightly warmer sounding.  You may want to put that on your list for consideration. I have not had very good luck with Cardas caps, I tried a 0.22uF in the same place as the Mundorf SIO (a coupling cap in a 2A3 SET amp), and I found it a bit veiled and soft sounding.

I hope this helps.  Capacitors are often a personal preference, dependent on the voicing of the equipment.

[Grainger49]

Thank you.  That is exactly what I wanted to hear.

The only problem is the price of the V-Cap.

[dmannnnn]

The v-cap 2.2uf oimp are only $11.00 more than the Mundorf at Parts Connexion.   I don't have much experience with different caps, but the OIMP caps made a very nice improvement in my Foreplay (over the stock caps).

[Grainger49]

I hadn't seen V-Cap on PCX.  For some silly reason I had another supplier book marked for V-Caps. 

I was looking for a 600V cap to allow use in the Eros then rolling them through the Seduction and FP.  My Paramours need a 10uF@600V Parafeed cap so that is out in designer caps. 

So I'm looking at the0.47uF M-CAP

[JIPPER]

Grainger, here are some links to capacitor comparisons on the web.  I have not listened to these capacitors myself and I realise you wanted personal experience.  But I thought the links could help anyone looking for a read.  My apologies if these have been posted before.
http://www.laventure.net/tourist/caps.htm
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/0708/capacitor1.htm
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/0708/capacitor2.htm
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/1108/capacitor1.htm
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/1108/capacitor2.htm
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
http://www.vhaudio.com/21capacitorshootout.pdf

Here is a quote from the first link above, made by Tempo Electric (no affiliation) regarding the v-cap OIMP:
    * VCap OIMP
      Oil Impregnated Metalized Polypropylene Film
      1.0uF/250VDC = $61.99
       
      Given Dr. Loesch's bias towards oil caps, we had high hopes for this modern type, but for us it was just as disappointing as its Teflon brother was a revelation. In the positions where we used them (as coupling or output caps in the 1.1 Preamp and as a 6350 cathode-to-ground bypass in the 302 Amps), they sounded slow, stuffy, and uninteresting. They seem to need a jolt of caffeine and might be best paired with a harder, brighter cap, like the Hovland or Electrocube or perhaps used in a DAC or other digital front-end. As used in our circuits, especially in line with a TFTF, its flaws were difficult to overlook.
       
      Manufacturer Chris VenHaus comments, "Most of the applications the OIMP's are being used for are outside the scope of your testing. They're best suited for use as larger value output coupling caps (bypassed with a 0.01 TFTF -- especially in digital circuits), as a bypass for electrolytic power supply filter caps, in a cascade with smaller value TFTF's, and in loudspeaker x-overs (although TFTF tweeter bypass caps work great on all but metal domes)."
       
      Of course, what didn't work for us, may be just the ticket for you, which is why we've sorted these caps by context, rather than making a sweeping, blanket statement about each one. (Yes, I know, we just made a sweeping blanket statement about the OIMP, but we tested them in circuits which we later learned were at odds with how the manufacturer recommended they be used.)
       
      Returning to the VCap web page, there is a note that the OIMP is "for use in power supplies, speaker crossovers, and various signal applications." This being the case, then our circuits were clearly not the right ones. Since many DIYers will also overlook this note, we're leaving our impressions intact as a caveat. Where we happened to use the OIMP, the TFTF would be (and we still feel is) a much better choice.

[Grainger49]

Great!  I will do some serious reading today.  I appreciate the help.

I guess the contenders are KK Teflon 2.2uF@600V (a pair paralleled), Mundorf Supreme Silver/Oil, V-Caps and Cardas which no one has liked. 

I have purchased the KK Teflons because they are insanely cheap.  I wanted to compare with another when I buy the Eros and build it.  In the mean time I can play with them in my Seduction and FP.

Again, thanks for all the reading and your work in finding it.

[JIPPER]

Actually, Grainger, I should thank you.  I have three sets of Obbligato caps waiting to roll into an enhanced SeX amp that I picked up after reading some of your posts.  They were a great price. I have the obbligato copper caps, obbligato gold premium caps, and some of the obbligato film and oil caps. 

I am really not sure which you recommended, I guess different types for different uses, but my link to Humble-Homemade-hifi refers to the copper variety.  I find it is not always an easy job to know exactly which variety people are speaking about.  Every web page and person refers to the same capcitor with a slightly different slang.  Short names like oilers, films, tinfoil, oil impregnated, metalised films, and all that are simply not used consistently enough for my liking across all the literature/boards.  Apparently the diyhifisupply page confirms that Homemade hifi was refereing to the obbligato copper caps. 

I figured that at these prices I could afford to compare these ones personally.  and learn more about the names in the process.

JP

[Grainger49]

JP,

I have recommended the film (PP) and oil Obbligatos.  I have heard the gold premium but didn't live with them.  Poster Paully has them in his ST-70.  Another poster took my suggestion (film/oil) and put them in his SEX amp and was extremely pleased.  It suited his taste very well.  And yet another poster, NiceTom, has used them (film/oil) extensively as power supply bypass caps and sends raves whenever he inserts them.  I bought 8 of the 2.2uF@630V about 6 months back, burned them in on my GainClone (workshop system) and have used 4 so far.

I know I will rotate the Obbligato Film and Oil through the Eros too.  I should have mentioned them.  

I hope you find them to your liking.  I compare cap rolling to spicing.  Some folks like garlic, some like cilantro (probably not an either/or situation in the same dish).  But it is a matter of taste and what one guy likes may not please another.  But I still like to hear the opinions.

Like you say, at these prices, just try it and you haven't lost much if it doesn't float your boat.

Thanks,

[dmcgown]

I have a problem with the Tempo Electric review, maybe because I am using the 1uF/600V version of the OIMP, not the 250V version.  Like any cap, it really needs to break in, and takes about 100 hours to do so.  I am running a small value V-Cap Teflon bypassing the OIMP, but not sure how much of a difference it makes.

I sometimes question the methodology of some of these cap shootout, some of them are in the context of speaker crossovers or power supply instead of as a coupling cap in electronics, and it is sometimes not clear how much the capacitors are allowed to break in.  Still, such comprehensive comparisons are rare, and they only thing other than experience to narrow down the cap selection.

If you are looking for a output cap, I would try to go for a high value (1.0 to 2.2 uF) for a more solid bass and better overall tonal presentation.  I typically find a 0.47uF cap to be a little lightweight.

David 

[Paul Joppa]

... maybe because I am using the 1uF/600V version of the OIMP, not the 250V version.

...

 and it is sometimes not clear how much the capacitors are allowed to break in.  ...

Very good points, in my humble opinion.

A long time ago I did a comparison of a few series feed output transformers. I was careful to give each one at least 50 hours of fairly loud music at near their rated power, into an 8 ohm resistor and drawing the rated DC current. It was such a pain to do the break in properly that I always assum no breaking was done unless the author of the study makes a special detailed point of how much breakin they did, and how. Even then, I study the break in methodology carefully to see if I personally agree that it was appropriate and fair to each candidate. Then, and only then, will I take thre results - with as they say a very large grain of salt.

I've been a wine enthusiast for many decades, and the problem is similar. Sure, it's easy to throw out the 5% of wines that are seriously flawed - for capacitors, read those that have measurable problems, like they drip gooey stuff on the table or short out spectacularly in the middle of the listening test. But after that, the differences are subtle and perceptual, and easily influenced by too many irrelevant variables. It's really odd that nobody says all wines taste the same and it's just lunacy to pay more than $3.99 for a bottle, while half the audio community feels that way about capacitors.

In both cases, what works best for me is a long-term statistical consensus of people with good ears. When a dozen of the best ears I know are all saying "I really like the XYZ (or QRL or THM or whatever that particular person is telling me about) cap, it's the best I've ever heard, but Auricaps are still pretty good" then I go buy some Auricaps for my project.

[Grainger49]

Thanks to everyone for all the suggestions and reading.  It took a while to wade through the capacitor shoot outs. 

I have ordered a number of caps now.  The Mundorf Silver/Oil are coming.  I received today a package of KK Teflons.  I'm going to burn them in and then try them in my FP 2.

Again, Thanks!

[BNAL]

Grainger,

I think that you will like the KK Teflons. They have been in my extended S.E.X. amp with the Obbligato Film and Oil for a couple of years now and I've had no desire to change them. I have Mundorf Silver and Oils in my Paramounts and like the way they sound as well. For my Foreplay III I use the supplied Auricaps, but have thought about changing them. Not sure what I would use but post like these start to get me thinking. On another forum they have been talking about the AmpOhm caps, but I have not heard them but they seem to sound good for the price.

[Grainger49]

Brad,

Yeah, I am a huge fan of the KK Teflons.  I have bought two batches of the 0.1uF@200V, as well as pairs of others that I have for special installations.  Sadly there isn't anything that would work for the Parafeed cap in my Paramours with iron upgrade.  It needs a 10uF@600V or higher.  The largest value KK Teflon I have seen was 1.0uF.

Sounds like the AmpOhm might be a sleeper like the Obbligato Film/Oil.  I'll look into them.

Thanks!

[Air]

PJ above makes an excellent point
The experience of others is relative to their environment, components and taste.
I laughed when reading his comment