Bottlehead Crack - Illustrated write-up

lokesen · 8558

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Offline Guy 13

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Reply #15 on: February 27, 2014, 04:07:21 PM
Hi galyons.
Thanks for sharing with us your experience.
Everything you wrote make sense.
I think Bottlehead should offer (As an option) up-grade kits to the DIYers.
Some DIYers don't want to chase around parts and/or don't have to experience to choose
the right up-grade parts that really makes a difference.
Is Doc reading this?
Doc, you could make extra $$$ on this.

Guy 13


Rega P3/Exact MM / Rega Apollo / Decware SE84C+ / Bottlehead Crack / Sennheiser HD650 / Grace Mondo RIT/ Omega 7F OB dipole / Double Eminence 12" Acoustinator OB dipole.


Offline Doc B.

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Reply #16 on: February 27, 2014, 05:09:51 PM
Retailing parts is a different business than manufacturing and supporting kits, and we have found that it is better for us to focus on our core proficiency. The parts that are included in the kit have been chosen based upon 20 years of experience doing this stuff. Any talk about "designing to a price point" is going down a slippery slope. 

We went thru this deal with attenuators when we developed the BeePre. We started with the stock pots, tried Alps Blue, PECs, S&B TVCs, Goldpoints, and probably a few other very highly regarded attenuators I don't recall. They were somewhat better than the stock pot, but when it came down to it we had to design our own attenuator to get something significantly better sounding than stock. Hence we sell the Bee Quiet kit. If you want to hear a Crack sound significantly better put a Submissive in front of it wth very short interconnects and replace the stock pot with 100K grid loading resistors.

Along these lines I spend a fair amount of time trying to explain to people that a stock Mainline is going to sound better than throwing $1500 worth of parts at a Crack, not because it has more expensive parts - which it does- but primarily because the circuit just plain sounds better.


Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President For Life
Bottlehead Corp.


Offline galyons

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Reply #17 on: February 27, 2014, 05:21:55 PM
Any talk about "designing to a price point" is going down a slippery slope. 

Along these lines I spend a fair amount of time trying to explain to people that a stock Mainline is going to sound better than throwing $1500 worth of parts at a Crack, not because it has more expensive parts - which it does- but primarily because the circuit just plain sounds better.

Doc,
This was the exact context of "designing to a price point".   Slippery slope or not,  the Crack is not the Mainline!! It wasn't designed to be.  If the Mainline could be produced to retail at the price point of the Crack, there would be no commercial need for the Crack.

Cheers,
Geary

VPI TNT IV/JMW 3D 12+Benz LP-S>  Eros + Auralic Aries + ANK Dac 4.1 >Eros TH+ Otari MX5050 IIIB2 > BeePre >Paramount 300B 7N7 > EV Sentry IV-A

Thorens TD124/Ortofon RMG-212/SPU >Seduction > Smash^Up> Paramour 45 MQ >K12's


Offline Grainger49

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Reply #18 on: February 28, 2014, 12:13:07 AM
    .  .  .    Changing caps is not good value for money.  .  .  .   

If you are going to pay over $100 for capacitors I agree.  But there are more moderate priced caps out there.  For the output caps you are replacing electrolytics.  They are polarized and are intended for a power supply not the audio path. 

At 100uF I fully understand why Bottlehead doesn't use a film here.



Offline mcandmar

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Reply #19 on: February 28, 2014, 05:58:16 AM
I do think an attenuator upgrade kit is a good idea, i had suggested that before. But thats about it, for anything else you really need to DIY.

For example i found upgrading the Solen output cap on my S.E.X. made a very nice difference, the Solen is a $3 part, vs the Mundorf which is a $72 part. Its not 24 times better, nor can anybody reasonably expect Doc to stock them in case anybody should decide they want them.  The Solen cap is however fantastic for the price, and i think that's the key here with the parts Bottlehead uses, the perfect balance of cost vs performance.

Or to put it another way, if they were to start using $70 capacitors and $200 attenuators it would be a long way from a $500 kit.

M.McCandless


Online Paul Birkeland

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Reply #20 on: February 28, 2014, 07:03:56 AM
We also need to be able to purchase the parts we need in a timely fashion without dealing with a bunch of delays. 

If we take the 100K pot for example, our normal vendors typically run out of the 100K RK-27 Alps pot before reordering, and there is a 4-6 week gap between when they have 0 available and when they get in the next batch of 1000.  This is typically unacceptable to our customers to add 4-6 weeks to our normal 3-6 week delivery time. 

In addition, the RK-27 is being discontinued, so if we had elected to use this part in any of our manuals, we would need to reshoot all those manuals and edit the instructions for the new part.

This is not an issue that we would expect to run into with the current 100K pots that we use. 

As far as caps go, I would encourage folks to educate themselves a lot more on what is standard practice in high end audio.  There are plenty of $5000+ components on the market that are LOADED with electrolytic caps and even *gasp* tantalum caps in the signal path, and these components receive rave reviews and significant praise.  Just because a cap is polarized doesn't mean that it isn't intended for use in the signal path of an amplifier. 

Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Offline Doc B.

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Reply #21 on: February 28, 2014, 09:25:31 AM
Yeah, there is a strange transition some times where what starts as basic, logical engineering practice (like Teflon is a very good dielectric) somehow turns into religion (therefore the biggest, most expensive Teflon cap is the best and only cap to use anywhere, anytime). 

I have no issue with people experimenting with various parts, in fact I encourage it. We feel that kind of play should be left to the end user to enjoy, rather than us trying to force feed everyone our favorite part flavors of the week.

Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President For Life
Bottlehead Corp.


Offline lokesen

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Reply #22 on: March 03, 2014, 02:20:16 AM
I just ordered a stepped attenuator (24 steps ladder type, 100 k), some 22 AWG teflon silver coated OFC wire and 2 new RCA plugs. It's hard to stop upgrading :)



Offline lokesen

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Reply #23 on: March 17, 2014, 11:55:22 PM
I finally got my stepped attenuator and a G.E.C CV 2523 tube.

Read about it here:
http://diy.koenigs.dk/2014/03/18/stepped-attenuator-legendary-g-e-c-cv-2523-tube/

(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic5.oneclick.koenigs.dk%2F2014%2F03%2F04ef6e5e17eac3ff8b04663e8cfe4d3454a76dc5-820x1024.jpg&hash=77ec7d6eb947f5d4ebe83eb0f29e4231a91097c6)



Offline JamieMcC

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Reply #24 on: March 18, 2014, 12:22:32 AM
The GEC is a great sounding tube I am running a Crack with a similar set up

Nice work and a good read and a great resource for anyone considering making a mod or two.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2014, 01:08:19 AM by JamieMcC »

Shoot for the moon if you miss you will still be amongst the stars!


Offline Grainger49

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Reply #25 on: March 18, 2014, 05:19:04 AM
Excellent update!

Could you include a soldering tutorial?  It is probably the most needed instruction for first timer DIY guys, and gals.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 11:39:21 AM by Grainger49 »



Offline lokesen

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Reply #26 on: March 18, 2014, 05:41:03 AM
Excellent update!

Could you include a soldering tutorial?  It is probably the most needed instruction for first timer DIY guys, and gals.


Thanks guys. Good idea. I'll consider making that.



Offline lokesen

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Reply #27 on: March 28, 2014, 09:24:40 AM
I just received a NOS ECC82 Valvo tube and it sounds unbelievable good in combination with my G.E.C CV 2523. What a combo.