Looking for an open-minded discussion of 192/24 audio

Loquah · 4152

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Offline Loquah

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This link was brought to my attention recently:

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

Although the article seems to make sense, I have tried ABX testing using the Foobar utility and can accurately pick the higher resolution file (192/24 vs 48/16) 90% of the time (although I notice that accuracy decreases rapidly with ear fatigue).

This leaves me wondering what is always true in the article versus what might be more complicated/variable. I'm not looking for black and white debate over dogma and opinions here; rather I am hoping to hear the perspectives of level headed and open-minded people who know more about this topic than me. Is hi res audio an unnecessary and detrimental waste of space or is it worth using?

Check out my reviews on YouTube - https://youtube.com/c/passionforsound


Offline mcandmar

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Reply #1 on: June 02, 2014, 04:01:16 AM
I look at digital audio recordings the same was a digital photography, or computer graphics.  The higher the resolution (or sampling rate) the better as you end up with a smoother and crisper image all around.

However the one thing vary few people take into consideration is the source, its only ever going to be as good as its source.  For example you can rip a CD into 192k/24bit all day long and it wont make the slightest bit of difference..

Sampling rate aside, using 24bit gives you more vertical real estate if you like which can translate into a lower noise floor, and also benefits the use of digital volume attenuation without impacting the recording so its not all as black/white as doing a simple A/B listening tests to see if they sound the same.

M.McCandless


Offline Doc B.

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Reply #2 on: June 02, 2014, 06:28:08 AM
Ah, good old persuasive writing 101.

Red cars - why they make no sense

Red cars do not get better gas mileage than other colors. And in fact they may be more dangerous than white cars.
This is because red cars are not really faster, it's just your brain fooling you.
The basic flaw is this - it has been written in a paper that if a red car goes by you fast enough it will appear blue. So far so good. But - the downside to this is that as the car goes away from you the color will change to infrared, and no matter how many people think they have golden eyes, they won't be able to see the car. And of course the car would have to be going nearly light speed, so it would need a huge gas tank, wasting storage space.
Luckily, better headphones will make any car seem more red.

I'm not saying I'm smarter than you (OK, maybe I am) But I hope I have sold you on my side of the argument. Because arguing about this stuff is a lot more fun than actually driving a red car. Especially if you are wearing a double blindfold.

Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President For Life
Bottlehead Corp.


Offline denti alligator

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Reply #3 on: June 02, 2014, 07:21:55 AM
Wait, if I I only think it sounds better, even if it doesn't, then doesn't it actually sound better, since I can only hear what I think I can hear?

Oh, never mind....

- Sam

Rega P3-24 (w/AT 150MLX) w/Groovetracer upgrades / Eros II / FLAC >J.River >DSD256 >Gustard X20 / Moreplay > Stereomour II / Klipsch Forte II w/Crites upgrades / C4S S.E.X. 2.0 +Nickel MQ Iron / Speedball Crack / Sennheiser HD600 w/Cardas cable


Offline thdewitt

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Reply #4 on: June 02, 2014, 08:09:32 AM
Waitt, what just happened??  Mind Blown  ::)

Eros Telefunken EF806S and Telefunken E88CC
BeePre JJ 300B
Paramount 1.1 EH 300B
Stereomour JJ 2a3-40 and Mullard CV4024
Crack Tung Sol 5998  Mullard CV 4003
Thorens TD 160 Super (Vinyl Nirvana)
Blumenstein Orca Deluxe/Dungenus Sub
Blumenstein Mako Floorstanders Chocolate Bamboo


Offline denti alligator

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Reply #5 on: June 02, 2014, 09:04:18 AM
I don't mean to belittle the topic. I'd love to hear some good discussion, and I'm definitely one of the believers.

But the cynic in me thinks: a placebo effect is still an "effect." You can't deny that.

As for harming your hearing, that's BS.

- Sam

Rega P3-24 (w/AT 150MLX) w/Groovetracer upgrades / Eros II / FLAC >J.River >DSD256 >Gustard X20 / Moreplay > Stereomour II / Klipsch Forte II w/Crites upgrades / C4S S.E.X. 2.0 +Nickel MQ Iron / Speedball Crack / Sennheiser HD600 w/Cardas cable


Offline Grainger49

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Reply #6 on: June 02, 2014, 09:14:04 AM
Ah, good old persuasive writing 101.  .  . 


This is because red cars are not really faster, it's just your brain fooling you.  .  .  .   

See, looks fast while standing still.  Red is the fastest color:

(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi244.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fgg7%2FGrainger49%2FCars%2FS2kc_zpsc5cbd944.jpg&hash=01cef99ce4d639f4f4397f94b23c93db26bacb38)

Notice that the clouds are in focus at the front edge of the hood.  The hood, not so much.  A real deep shine.

Thanks for noticing Dan.



Offline mcandmar

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Reply #7 on: June 02, 2014, 09:50:43 AM
Ooh an S2000, very nice 8)

M.McCandless


Offline Grainger49

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Reply #8 on: June 02, 2014, 10:22:08 AM
Thank you!  She is 15 years old in July this year.  I just wet sanded a minor problem on the front left fender this afternoon.  I take care of it.

(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi244.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fgg7%2FGrainger49%2FSmiles%2FTipHat.gif&hash=e6ef7f0d5488d01ff7ef90294fc834dbd255538c)

Our old friend "Gaspode" bought a new one (in Windsor England) a few years back.  I miss his posts.  Good man, Gaspode!



Offline Loquah

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Reply #9 on: June 02, 2014, 10:54:33 AM
So the verdict is, as far as I can tell, that Doc is a genius (knew that already), red cars are awesome (knew that already as I own a red RX-8 GT), what we hear is all that matters, S2000s are cool, and the people that write papers lie this are biased and running agendas. Is that the gist of it?  :P

Jokes aside, the discussion about ultrasonic sounds captured at higher sampling rates and creating noise in the playback systems seems all well and good (and had me wondering) except that I would assume any decent recording studio and mastering setup would have ways to filter this stuff out because someone would have heard it during the mastering process... Is that a fair assumption and close to the truth?

Check out my reviews on YouTube - https://youtube.com/c/passionforsound


Offline Doc B.

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Reply #10 on: June 02, 2014, 11:15:27 AM
The filtering issue is an interesting one, and in fact John spent a lot of time developing the filter we use in our DAC. It does have a very big influence on the sound, which you can double blind test yourself as we include a switch to go back and forth between the stock filter and John's.

Don't forget to buy better headphones.

Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President For Life
Bottlehead Corp.


Offline JamieMcC

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Reply #11 on: June 02, 2014, 11:41:06 AM
So the verdict is, as far as I can tell, that Doc is a genius (knew that already), red cars are awesome (knew that already as I own a red RX-8 GT), what we hear is all that matters, S2000s are cool, and the people that write papers lie this are biased and running agendas. Is that the gist of it?  :P

Jokes aside, the discussion about ultrasonic sounds captured at higher sampling rates and creating noise in the playback systems seems all well and good (and had me wondering) except that I would assume any decent recording studio and mastering setup would have ways to filter this stuff out because someone would have heard it during the mastering process... Is that a fair assumption and close to the truth?

All being equal the fastest of cars should be red when accelerating away from you and turn blue when coming towards you.

Jokes a side I have quiet a few recordings where whoever was doing the mastering has left in all kinds of sounds hisses pops etc I have one somewhere that even has cup of tea or coffee being stirred the spoon is tinkling away in the background! Most probably wearing some Dr Dre Beats for mastering!

Shoot for the moon if you miss you will still be amongst the stars!


Offline Loquah

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Reply #12 on: June 02, 2014, 12:55:02 PM
LOL. I have a few like that. One of them has one of the orchestra members coughing and it's not a live recording if I recall correctly (i.e. not a concert) so could have been redone if they'd wanted to. I kind of like hearing that stuff though because it adds to the overall "image".

What I'm unsure of though is the impact of inaudible sounds. The link I posted includes some recordings of ultrasonic tones which DO actually create audible sounds through my setup (PC --> X-Sabre DAC --> Mainline). That said, I have never heard any artifacts in hi-res music (even the crappily mastered stuff) so I wonder if this is a matter of creating a test file that's testing things outside of normal limits in order to create failures.

And yes, Doc, we should all buy better, faster, red headphones.  ;D

Check out my reviews on YouTube - https://youtube.com/c/passionforsound


Offline mcandmar

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Reply #13 on: June 02, 2014, 01:00:02 PM
Just what you need..

(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-GiabS6iUSK4%2FTwoJWQOMgzI%2FAAAAAAAAAho%2FdQDFyXV2mik%2Fs1600%2Flogic3-ferrari-speaker-docks-headphones-15.jpg&hash=0c17a8de03744b608d90f8c73b7257b71c3e86ca)

M.McCandless


Offline Bodyslam

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Reply #14 on: June 03, 2014, 06:04:12 AM
This link was brought to my attention recently:

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

Although the article seems to make sense, I have tried ABX testing using the Foobar utility and can accurately pick the higher resolution file (192/24 vs 48/16) 90% of the time (although I notice that accuracy decreases rapidly with ear fatigue).

This leaves me wondering what is always true in the article versus what might be more complicated/variable. I'm not looking for black and white debate over dogma and opinions here; rather I am hoping to hear the perspectives of level headed and open-minded people who know more about this topic than me. Is hi res audio an unnecessary and detrimental waste of space or is it worth using?

I don't consider Monty's article to be open-minded. His mind is clearly made up, and this is an advocacy article. OK fine, if it were presented that way, but it isn't. Anyway, I'm not going to argue all the points I disagree with in his article, but I will contribute a few perspectives that you don't find there. And you can decide for yourself whether I'm being either level-headed or open-minded.

First, the Nyquist Sampling Theorem is correct, and it will always give you the right answer. However, it has no power to tell you whether you have asked the right question. If your goal is to record and play back music that sounds natural, then "How high a sampling rate do I need to record the highest frequency of interest?" is definitely the wrong question. If instead you ask, "How high a sample rate do I need to record and play back with minimal distortion of the waveform?" you find that you need a sample rate that is quite a bit higher. To simplify a bit, any practical implementation of a sampling system is based on filters, both on the record end and the playback end, and these filters, whether they are digital or analog, affect the signal in the time domain. This is completely ignored in the Theorem, because it is only concerned with what frequencies can be recorded. But our ears certainly don't ignore it in listening.

Discussion of high sample rates always seems to center on the ability to record ultrasonic frequencies. Look, we know that doubling the sample rate raises the high frequency limit, we're not beginners here and we all understand that much about digital audio. However, the guys who are pushing digital audio to better levels of performance don't say they need to record ultrasonics. They need the high rates to get digital audio to pass the waveform with less temporal distortion. One of the best A/D/A's ever developed, the Pacific Microsonics Model Two, doesn't even record that much into the ultrasonic range at high sample rates. The designers instead used that extra bandwidth to implement gentle rolloff filters that have less temporal distortion. So please ignore all that hooey about ultrasonics; it's a smoke screen. And once you quit worrying about ultrasonics, there really isn't much left in the Xiph article.

So go ahead and do your own listening comparisons if you wish. There are perfectly valid technical reasons why you MIGHT hear differences, and if you do then you are free to have preferences as well.

Paul Stubblebine
Paul Stubblebine Mastering, San Francisco
The Tape Project, LLC
serious student of the audio arts