Were the speakers of the 40's better than they are today?

tdogzthmn · 7165

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Offline tdogzthmn

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on: September 19, 2015, 11:46:04 AM
Came across this interesting article on Cnet talking about the merits of some of the older speaker designs such as the Western Electic 575A monitors.

http://www.cnet.com/news/did-the-best-speakers-of-the-1940s-sound-better-than-your-speakers/

I'm not familiar with compression drivers and horn speakers but I'm sure there are some bottle heads here that have some experience or opinions on how these compare to modern day designs.



Offline galyons

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Reply #1 on: September 19, 2015, 01:09:47 PM

I'm not familiar with compression drivers and horn speakers but I'm sure there are some bottle heads here that have some experience or opinions on how these compare to modern day designs.

Compression drivers and horns ARE used in modern day designs.  Compression drivers and horns are still designed and manufactured  in commercially significant quantities.  I use CD's  from the '60's  because I prefer the sound of phenolic diaphragms and Alnico magnets.  Much the same as my preference for SE DHT amplification.  IMO, there is synergy in those materials/technologies above and beyond the high efficiency of horns.

Modern day designs of CD's tend to use metallic diaphragms which imparts a sonic signature on the music that,  to my ears, is not as pleasant and/or musical.

Horn designs are no less "modern" than dynamic, planar or electrostatic speakers.  Materials may change, but the basics are still basic.

Cheers,
Geary

VPI TNT IV/JMW 3D 12+Benz LP-S>  Eros + Auralic Aries + ANK Dac 4.1 >Eros TH+ Otari MX5050 IIIB2 > BeePre >Paramount 300B 7N7 > EV Sentry IV-A

Thorens TD124/Ortofon RMG-212/SPU >Seduction > Smash^Up> Paramour 45 MQ >K12's


Offline xcortes

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Reply #2 on: September 19, 2015, 01:46:34 PM
There's no absolute best. Some like some things and some others like others. Today I listen to 755A drivers and have not heard speakers that could satisfy my taste better. If I ever require more spls and dynamics I would return to my horns built around my RCA 1443 field coils with fabric diaphragms. "Modern" speakers that I like as much are Doc's and John Tucker Exemplars.

Xavier Cortes


Offline Gerry E.

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Reply #3 on: September 21, 2015, 05:02:12 AM
Some of those WE speakers are way over-hyped with crazy off-the-chart prices!  Others, can actually be underpriced.  My speaker system borrows from both Geary and Xavier.

Like Geary, I don't like metallic diaphragms, so I use vintage Jensen RP302 tweeters.  They use phenolic coated cloth diaphragms.  Similar to Xavier, I use ALTEC/WE 756B 10" drivers. 

It's not just the ALNICO magnets that make the WE 700 series of cone drivers special.  The cone material was made using a special formula and process.  The process included "cooking", a washing machine and silk! 

Gerry                         



Offline tsingle999

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Reply #4 on: September 22, 2015, 01:57:15 PM
How do you guys box up your vintage we speakers? ( You are violating the posting without pics policy:-)! )  I do have vintage pioneer 10" in baffles that I like a lot but I prefer the fostex 6.5" esr series in Abby's. But I'm listening to the pioneers now. They do some things I like better like crystal clear highs. I use the buf subs from blumenstein for both.

SGS iTransporter with Qobuz & Roon to Optical Rendu to BH DAC (Battery) / Wavelegth Cosecant to BeePre to 300b(ehemoths) to Jagers.
Bottlehead Stat headphone amp with Wavelength Brick DAC


Offline xcortes

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Reply #5 on: September 22, 2015, 04:16:34 PM
Mine are in the "WE designed" 2 cu ft sealed boxes. I am about to try JE Labs type OBs.

I've tried woofers and they take more than what they add. There's nothing like a single driver. Even if it's compromised at the extremes. To me it's about the music. Have friends that are more into the show. To each his own I guess.

Xavier Cortes


Offline Clark B.

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Reply #6 on: September 27, 2015, 01:39:06 PM
I personally feel that the materials used in the 40's and earlier were probably more often than not longer lasting, easier to maintain naturally, and perhaps more gentle sounding than the majority of synthetic materials used today.  I have radio speakers and victrolas in my collection that still sound just fine.  Sometimes the cone drivers can sound quite good. 

The design methods in this first golden age of audio were far more hunt and peck than most modern design methods.  Yet, this trial and error methodology still resulted in good sounding speakers that are still frequently regarded as good sounding.

It seems that the only real currency that buys you sound quality is just effort of the designers and manufacturers that goes into the product itself. 

There are numerous more and usually smaller higher points thoughout audio history (and the present day) than a black and white blanket view of history will let you see.

I am a total sucker for history.  My present day cabinet designs use Fostex 3"ers that go back to the 1970's in the Orcas and a clone of an old pioneer 8" driver (BoFu) in the Thrasher.  The Bofu also goes back decades of consistent production and refinement as well. 

The quality of sound that this iterative refinement represents is hidden further inside the value engineering of the parts used in these drivers than can be apparent just looking at them.  This fact is and should be kindof scary to anyone out there starting up a fullrange speaker driver company.

In terms of my own company, I began working with cabinets first inside Cain and Cain and then on my own for these specific fullrange single driver models from Fostex and Pioneer 13 years ago and ever since as my production of them has grown, I have made very slight, typically unannounced, iterative refinements that take place between large production batches of those cabinet models.  Just like the Pioneer and Fostex drivers, and as those drivers have changed slightly, so too have my cabinets to make the most of their ever improving, modern-day-classic sound.  Though I have tried out hundreds of different fullrange drivers from many, many companies high end and low end, my best designs so far and therefore my role in this industry has instead been to make the classic cabinets that needed to be there for these classic drivers that are still in current production and still gradually improving. 

-Clark

« Last Edit: September 27, 2015, 01:42:39 PM by Clark B. »



Offline galyons

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Reply #7 on: September 27, 2015, 04:15:36 PM
Bigger than a breadbox, smaller than a refrigerator, (just barely  ;) )  2 x 12" Alnico cone drivers in the bass bin.  Mid & Tweeter horns are Alnico compression drivers.  These were released in the '60's to compete with the Altec Lansing Voice of the Theater speakers.  About 102dB/1W/1M.

They came stock in "gig attire", any color you want as long as it is black.  This pair was originally the studio monitors for Ampex Records, a short lived part of the Ampex Corporation.  (Or so I was told by the guy from whom I bought them.  He said he was a tech at Ampex and got the speakers for his band.)  Since he lives near the old Ampex campus, likely some truth to the story. 

I sheathed the bass bin cabinet walls with Baltic Birch play to make them about 1" thick. Really tightened up the bass definition and timbre.  The crossovers were redone and the mid horn refinished.  I really enjoy the sound.  Not much bass below 50Hz or treble above 16K Hz.

(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FB0mwMN6.jpg&hash=2d8a752a3b2fcf97b99228d5e15ce759888267eb)

Cheers,
Geary

VPI TNT IV/JMW 3D 12+Benz LP-S>  Eros + Auralic Aries + ANK Dac 4.1 >Eros TH+ Otari MX5050 IIIB2 > BeePre >Paramount 300B 7N7 > EV Sentry IV-A

Thorens TD124/Ortofon RMG-212/SPU >Seduction > Smash^Up> Paramour 45 MQ >K12's


Offline Clark B.

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Reply #8 on: October 03, 2015, 07:49:46 AM
Awesome setup, Geary.  Have been using 4 pair or 9 pair arrays of Thrashers with custom wiring harnesses to get mega efficiency like that :) 


Offline tdogzthmn

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Reply #9 on: October 10, 2015, 08:33:47 AM
Clark,

Can we see a picture of your thrasher array?  I'm interested in learning about the old voice of the theater arrays used in the past.

Seems like the thrasher can be used as a more compact version of these older PA systems.  Maybe a 5.2 Thrasher system would be a fun system for music and movies...