E80CC/6085

[Dr. Toobz]

I know that some people here are running E80CC's in the driver socket in place of the stock 12AU7/5963. From what I read, these are storied tubes, as are the prices I see on eBay and online tube stores for decent examples. I'm curious as to people's actual observations about this tube vs. the 12AU7 in the Crack. Is it worth it? I would imagine perhaps a bit more "forward" sound, given that the gain is higher (27 vs 17 for the 12AU7). Otherwise, they look very similar on paper, save for the higher heater current.

What (subtle) differences in sound can one expect from the E80CC?

[ironbut]

I was running a Tungsram E80cc for a while in my stock Crack. Like you said, it has a little more forward midrange, slightly more gain and kind of an "audiophile" presentation to it. The sound is fast and detailed but it might be a little too clinical sounding for some headphones. I would tend to agree with those who say it's a "must try" tube and needs to be in your 12au7 stash.
Personally, the tube set I use is very headphone-centric. I guess that's one of the attractions of headphone audio for me. I can "roll" everything around the source. The amp, tubes, cables and headphones are generally cheap and easy enough so I can get to a setup that I want to live with for a while.

I picked these Tungsrams up on eBay as NIB from a seller in Germany IIRC. They weren't crazy $$$ either (I'm sure they were under $100 a pair).

[Dr. Toobz]

Interesting! Thanks for your observations.

Now, am I correct in that the purported benefits of the 6085 actually mirror those of using a CCS vs. a static plate load like a resistor? I mean, lower distortion, a more linear response, and higher gain are cited as benefits of the C4S. So, I guess that if I'm itching to see what the E80cc sounds like, I might achieve some similar benefits from the Speedball...

I've noticed that I seem not to prefer C4S vs. chokes (both are better than resistors) but I do note that I think much of this had to do with my Beyers. Now that I have Senns (HD650) I can see where lower distortion and linearity would be useful, whereas with the Beyers, the mids are so cold and clinical that I actually seemed to seek out distortion to fill things in, contraindicating the use of tubes like the 6085 or things like CCS loads. I think the Crack sounds great as-is, but I'm always looking to squeeze out the last 1%....

Is this a logical line of thinking?

[ironbut]

I agree,.. I spent a year or so listening to Beyers and they operate so close to the edge of edgyness that it really doesn't take much to put them into the clinical, cold category.

The e80cc/6080 combo I was using did take the Crack in the same general direction as the Speedball does but the CCS' brings more to the table IMHO. The lower noise floor made a nice improvement in things like soundstage and imaging plus the bass extension seems improved too.
I have to admit that the e80cc seemed like too much of a good thing at first, but it kinda grew on me and up until I installed the Speedball, that's what I was listening to the most.

[tdogzthmn]

I am also interested in the E80CC which seems to reflect my preferences which are speed, detail, and accuracy.  Same as the 5998 from what I can tell.  Anyone want to sell me a TUNGSRAM E80CC?

[levlhed]

I just returned a really sweet Amperex PQ 6085 (E800CC) to my tube dealer tonight.  I tried it a few times, and while the sound was great it just had too much gain.  I could barely get the volume knob past the point of being balanced and it would sit right on the edge of being too loud.  I tried to just deal with it, but I found it too fatiguing with my HD650s.  I'm pretty sure with different cans you'd have a better experience. 

as a side note, a few months ago I discovered tubeworld.com is just down the road from me!  He has all the tubes, and while his prices are pretty much top dollar I don't mind buying "local".  In fact I prefer it.  The other benefit was his giving full credit for the 6085 towards a sweet Telefunken 12AU7!  I bought a really nice 5998 from him too, again not cheap...but I KNEW it was a great tube.  No internet gambling for me, no waiting for the damn post man or UPS either.  I just drive over, ring the bell, he hands me a tube and I hand him his cash.....I can go from taking off my headphones to trying out a sweet new tube inside of 45 minutes.....

I haven't decided yet if it's ultimately a good thing or a bad thing to have a crack-tube dealer living 10 miles away...

[ironbut]

Branden's always been good to me.
Thank god he isn't just 10 miles from me! But he gets me my orders in just a couple of days anyway.
I bet the Tele and the 5998 will pair up real nice.

[Dr. Toobz]

I just returned a really sweet Amperex PQ 6085 (E800CC) to my tube dealer tonight.  I tried it a few times, and while the sound was great it just had too much gain.  I could barely get the volume knob past the point of being balanced and it would sit right on the edge of being too loud.  I tried to just deal with it, but I found it too fatiguing with my HD650s.  I'm pretty sure with different cans you'd have a better experience. 

That's good to know, as I also use 650's with my Crack. I had originally thought about the e80cc, too. But, I've decided to go the route of active loads (i.e., Speedball) and will be upgrading the coupling caps to 100uF Solens. That should pretty much max out the amp, I'd think, save for eventually swapping in a 5598. I don't seem to mind the 5963 in there for the 12AU7, so I'll probably just leave the driver tube as-is. The e80cc seems like it could be too much of a good thing, from what I've been reading!

[levlhed]

How does a 5965 compare in gain?
Would a 5965 work in a Crack Speedball?

I've used them in place of 12AT7 and I know they are a little lower gain, but I'm not sure just how much lower they are and how they compare to an E80CC.

[Dr. Toobz]

IIRC, the 5965 has mu of about 48; I looked them up once. I'd think that would be way too much gain. If people are complaining that the e80cc has too much gain (mu=27) I couldn't imagine an even higher gain would be a good thing.

I think the way to go might be looking into highly-regarded variants or NOS examples of the 12AU7, like the clear-tops, or the 6CG7, which I've heard is essentially a 6SN7 in a different wrapper. I've also not heard anybody mention using a 12BH7 in place of the 12AU7. The heater draws twice as much current, IIRC, but the power transformer should have the capacity. Might there be a benefit in trying out a 12BH7, or is it too different of a tube?

[levlhed]

Actually I've been using a GE 12BH7 with great results!
Lots of airy extension and detail on the highs, but very smooth too.  Might lack ever so slightly on the bass, but not enough to say it's a problem.

[jrihs]

Well I just posted this ebay info on the tube rolling thread, but the info belongs here...

E80CC Tubes for replacing the 12AU7 or 5814
by: neffisgood( 246) 
16 out of 16 people found this guide helpful.
Guide viewed: 4131 times Tags: 12AU7 | 5814 | 6085 | 5963 | 6189

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Many tube amplifiers use the common 12AU7 and various simular versions such as the 5814, 5963 and 6189 tubes. A lower distortion replacement is the E80CC with slightly different operating parameters and double the filament current requirements. Be careful regarding the installed height of this tube, about equal to a 6BQ5 & taller than 12AU7 tubes. Regarding the higher filament current, make sure your amplifier has the extra current capacity. Most amplifiers have plenty of reserve capacity. One way to view it is a 250va or say 250 watt power transformer will require an additional 1.9 watts per tube. That is a very small percentage increase in power demand on a 250 watt transformer. My example above with regard to power transformer additional loading is only a very rough guide. A small preamp without a power tube output section can overstress the power transformer filament with E80CC tubes. In this case, Brimar 13D5 or CBS Hytron or CBS 5814 or 5814A are your only option for best quality sonics and are far superior to the standard 12AU7. I also read Sylvania early 1950s tall black plate are of superior sonics, but never heard these tubes.
The Amperex E80CC also labeled at times as 6085. Many persons performing a search miss that 6085 only listing and buyers can get a super deal. Various labels of Amperex manufactured tubes are Valvo, Telefunken, Siemens, etc. Another brand is the Tungsram E80CC. Both are great performing tubes. The Amperex produces a warmer midrange and slightly darker high frequencies compared to the Tungsram manufacture. The Tungsram are brighter on the high frequencies and a little cooler regarding the midrange producing accurate sonics without being the least bit sterile sounding in my applications. I truely enjoy either manufacture.

Both brands of tubes are highly recommended and in most cases will greatly outperform the 12AU7 in home entertainment amplifiers. However, a few audiophiles do like the much high distortion of the 12AU7 for whatever reason. (Be advised my guide is more addressing home entertainment amplifiers vs guitar amplifiers for accurate & neutral playback sonics). The 5814 series was actually a redesigned by RCA 12AU7 due to a few complaints of the 12AU7 distortion figures when introduced in the late 1940s. The 12AU7 tube was not meeting some manufactures requirements such as Collins Radio now called Rockwell Collins

Cheers!

[steel]

Hello,
My first post in here, and sorry for my poor english.
I order a crack kit and wish to rolling some tubes in the future.

If use E80CC...
The PT-3 only 6.3V 3A for Filament.
Is it can drive E80CC Correct？

[Paul Joppa]

The PT-3 will handle 3.5 amps RMS.

In the Crack circuit the E80CC will bias up at a higher voltage (mu is 27, vs. 17 for the 12AU7), changing the 6080 operating point as well. This will increase the cathode resistor or Speedball heat dissipation - I don't know by how much. It is NOT a direct replacement, even though it may work in many circuits designed for the 12AU7.

[steel]

Thank you, I will not to try.