Bottlehead Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: audiophileboss on September 09, 2013, 01:31:24 PM
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Is there a difference between a $300 coaxial cable and a $1500 one? Both same length. I am talking about an audible difference?
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Buy them and find out for yourself. :)
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This is a hot key for some folks. I know that there is a sonic difference between $3 cables and $300 cables. I wouldn't know anything about $1500 cables. I don't own any, probably never will.
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Anyone else with the experience of owning one? But guys thanks for your reply
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I don't want to get into whether there are audible differences between high-end audio cables (I don't have experience with cables of that caliber, so can't speak from first-hand experience). But it does raise something I have often wondered about. The market for $1,500 cables must be very, very small. While I'm sure each individual cable is very profitable, the total annual profit to the manufacturer must be very small in terms of the overall cable market. Moreover, one or both of two things must be true: (1) the manufacturer is not making the raw cable itself and/or (2) the raw cable is not unique to the $1,500 cable. It simply wouldn't be profitable to produce high-end, unique raw cable in runs of...what? 200ft? 500ft?
That means that the raw cable is almost certainly being used in other products. And those other products are likely to be significantly cheaper. So what accounts for the premium in the $1,500 cable? Presumably it is the hand assembly and overall build quality. I'm not saying those things don't contribute to the signal-carrying capability, but I wonder what portion of the overall signal-carrying ability they represent vs. the conductor, which must be the most expensive part of it.
Moreover, the R&D budget for a $1,500 cable must be tiny to non-existent. So how did the manufacturer determine that the $1,500 cable is the optimum design? Did they just pile premium components into it and charge more? I don't assume that more expensive raw materials necessarily perform better. Did they test the cable? Do they have any data to show that it performs better? We're talking about a digital cable: presumably you could feed a signal in, then check to make sure that the signal on the other side is identical, then show how other cables introduce a greater number of errors, or result in higher jitter or whatever. Companies like Canare or Belden or Mogami have real R&D programs and budgets. They have high-tech manufacturing facilities with tight tolerances. Does that mean that someone else can't produce a hand-crafted product that performs better? Of course not. But the odds are against it.
I don't mean to pick on cables in particular here. This is generally true of any product where:
- product cost is high
- quantities are low
- hand-crafted product is competing against a product made in a modern, automated, high-end manufacturing environment (not something made by injecting plastic into a mold, or stamping metal sheets)
- R&D is key
- a small-time manufacturer couldn't possibly produce all of the components themselves
As several people here know, I have had my headphones recabled at considerable cost with custom cables. But I don't have any illusions that the guy who makes those cables is making his own wire, weaving his own cable sleeving, making his own connectors, etc. He is buying various, common components and assembling them with care. The cost of the cables reflects his cost for the raw materials, and his skilled labor in assembling them (not to mention his advice and experience during the cable design process). It does NOT reflect the value of some magical incantation that imbues his cables with the sonic benefits of eye of newt. And to take it a step further, I have no reason to believe that when soldering the wire to the connectors, he does a better job doing this by hand than, say, Sennheiser did when manufacturing the stock HD800 cable in their automated facilities.
Again, this is NOT about cables. My point is just that as the cost of a product gets higher and volumes get lower, it seems to me that from a practical perspective, it actually gets HARDER, not easier, to produce a better product. Think about this: if I offered to pay you $1,000,000 for a handmade, custom-designed hard drive, could you build something better than what I can buy at Best Buy for $100?
No need to respond to this post. Nothing in here says that any specific $1,500 cable cannot perform better than another specific $300 cable. You would have to test those specific cables to see if there was a difference in performance, and as I don't even know what cables you are talking about, I obviously haven't done that. I'm just thinking out loud here...
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My 2 cents... I would NOT spend that much on wire. Diminishing returns. If that brand has some good shit to sell, then they should have an AFFORDABLE example to try. Go from there... I admit. I am 'guilty' of indulging in the ultra high end boutique. But, I did it at the 'entry level'. What I can say is... its real. Challenge them. Only buy the affordable stuff.....
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All I have to say is before I knew there was a controversy about it, I tried better cables and easily heard a difference.
That being said, I'm not rich. The most I've ever spent on a cable was around $260 and that was for something like 16' of Kimber 8TC. I used most of it for a stereo pair of speaker cables and the rest turned into interconnects and hook-up wire for various projects over the last 10 years.
I've heard Kimber's Select cables and while they were in a system that probably exceeded $50K, the combination sounded pretty damn good. I've also heard a $50K system with Kimber's 4TC and it still sounded spooky-good.
I once had a car with a stereo in it that exceeded the value of the car. I started with Kimber 4PR between a 4x50 watt amp and infinity and Boston acoustic speakers. It was marginally better than the shitty stock wiring the car came with. Then i ripped it all out and tried 4TC. The clarity was undeniable to everyone that listened to it. Over the years I found the 4VS is around 90% as good as the TC cables for half the price. 8TC is pretty awesome too and slightly warmer than the 4TC but at twice the price. I want to try the 12TC but $31/ft makes me uncomfortable. Maybe come bonus time.
I have a lot more to say about this topic but have other pressing concerns.
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Hey Rob, that Kimber 8TC/4TC level is what I'm talking about. "Affordable" boutique. All these companies know that there are MANY more of us out there looking for a reasonable, high performing piece of wire, than those with the big wallets. With that said... I can pitch the JPS Labs ultaconductor 2 series. IMO, a good value. Nothing fancy. Ziplock bag and the whole deal. No white gloves. What I have noticed with the JPS stuff is "coherence". Its all together and natural. YMMV.
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I am a skeptic - let's get that out of the way right off the bat.
That being said, and to add to that, I'm a firm believer in the "expectation effect." In other words, why the same wine in a $25 bottle tastes better than the same wine in a $5 bottle and label.
IoW, of course a $1,500 coax cable sounds betters...after all, it has to, doesn't it? Why else would it cost $1,500?
My suggestion is to graduate up slowly...try things one at a time...make each prove their merit and decide for yourself. My tin ear has a much lower gradient in terms of dollar per quantum of improvement...yours may be different, though...
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Hey caffeinator - I can SO relate! I was a TOTAL wire agnostic for many years. Its nuts! But, my friend, unfortunately, its real. I wish it wasn't. With that said, IMO, there are more COST EFFECTIVE ways to improve your sound than spending a ton on wire. Again, thats my opinion. I have not heard the multi $K wire. Never will.
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I think there is a lot of hype about cables and the law of diminishing returns kick in pretty early. I also believe that most companies just
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Ok, i forgot to mention I only need a meter run. Will that cable quality differ at that length?
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Is there a difference between a $300 coaxial cable and a $1500 one? Both same length. I am talking about an audible difference?
Which $1500 cable and which $300 cable? I've got a metre of cable you can have for $1500 if you want.
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Michael,
Thanks for those suggestions and links. Can you provide a link to the 4mm medical-certified bananas you use?
I'm personally a fan of Blue Jeans Cable.
Click here (http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/humrejection.htm) for a description of their test of various cables for interconnect use. (Note that since that test was conducted, they found an even better cable, LC-1, which they now recommend. The test is still an educational read, however.
Click here (http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/audio/index.htm) for their RCA interconnects (and related discussion of technical requirements and performance considerations).
Click here (http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/speaker/index.htm) for their speaker cables (and related discussion).
Click here (http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/digital-audio/index.htm) for their digital coax and toslink cables (and related discussion).
FWIW, the last time I spoke to them, they didn't see any value in creating custom USB cables. They sell USB cables, but they are just cheap cables they buy off-the-shelf from China. Their 6-foot USB 2.0 cable costs....a whopping $2. No, it isn't any better than any other USB cable that came packaged with your printer. They sell them as a convenience item for their customers, not because they think they perform better.
Best regards,
Adam
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Ok, i forgot to mention I only need a meter run. Will that cable quality differ at that length?
I have so many questions.
What cables are you currently using?
What brands are you asking about?
Where are you planning to use this cable?
Are you seriously considering buying a $1500 cable or just curious about them?
Somethings to consider:
Many "high-end" cables are sold through dealers who get a nice cut of the price and provide a more reliable conduit to the manufacturer.
While some cables are clearly made by someone else (Blue Jeans cables = Belden) some are not.
While there are some standards for what and how we all hear things, not everyone has the same hearing ability. Put another way, everyone has a different amount of damage done to their hearing. It's unrealistic to expect everyone to hear the same way.
Bias for and against the audible differences of cables exist. There are dedicated camps for each side. This is why I always say forget what others think, keep an open mind, and try and listen yourself. Some dealers will loan you an expensive cable to try before buying.
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Which $1500 cable and which $300 cable? I've got a metre of cable you can have for $1500 if you want.
You know Dan doesn't allow for sale ads here. :) ;D :P That was my best try at a tongue in cheek smiley trio.
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To support Rob's point, when I've looked into high-end cables in the past, it seemed like all dealers (or manufacturers, if they sell direct) would either loan you a cable or had a generous return policy.
Regards,
Adam
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My experience tells me that the boutique stuff is better. But you get to the point that the differences become subtle. I would guess that the $1500 cable is "better" (different might be a better word) than the $300 cable. However I would guess that you would not find them 5x better, and the betterness (differentness) might come down to a matter of taste (ie the better or different may not sound as good to you).
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I am using the wireworld super nova 6 reference optical cable. But I lay convert to coaxial. The wireworld starlight premium 1 meter.
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My concern is at 1 meter length, how much quality with $1500 cable really make? I jist want to know if its worth it
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My concern is at 1 meter length, how much quality with $1500 cable really make? I jist want to know if its worth it
Ok, so we're talking digital cables.
Based on everything I've read over the years as well as my own observations, coax sounds slightly better than optical. If you're not that discerning stick with what you got.
If you're really sweating the cost of a $1500 cable then maybe you should consider something else.
When I spend $1500, I'm getting a hell of a lot more than 1 cable. Like a whole tube amp with tubes!
But to each their own. Try one if you can before buying. You never know what might just take your system to the next level.
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Rob makes an excellent point. I don't know what you currently have in your system, but for $1,500, you could buy a BeePre or a Mainline and have money left over. And for a little more, you could have a pair of Paramounts.
What do you think will make a more noticeable improvement in your system: a digital cable, or upgrading a major component?
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Good point. Maybe I wont get the $1500 cable. 1meter is just to short to make a difference in theory
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I wouldnt spend $1500 on any cable, no matter the length! Thats just me, and with the economics of my system it simple does not make sense. It has to make sense IMO. If a person has 10's to 100's of thousands in their system then it kind of makes sense. Why wouldnt you?
Makes no sense to have $25K in the digital or vinyl front end, another $25K in amp preamp etc, another $25K in speakers, and then spend a few hundred on the wire! That would be insane! If I had that kind of kit I would consider a JPS Labs aluminata set. Prob. another $30K....
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IME, cables are the last couple percent of change and by the time that you dial in the rest of the components, the cable is the least of your concerns. Focus on the rest and the cables will be the least of your concerns.
You seem to have money to blow by reading your prior posts. Have a little patience and slowly develop your system focusing on your source, pre, amp, speaker/cans. It's a fine tuning match to get that right (and right is for your listening preference!). Once accomplished, you can fine tune with caps, cables, iron and tubes.
For example, yesterday I put in a new pair of tubes (tubes and device withheld for now :) These tubes are expensive but made a significant improvement to my listening pleasure on the scale of 10% in a very well matched system (mine). These tubes cost less than 50% of your cables.
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I have been making up my own cables for a few months now. I use RG8X which is RF power cable, way overkill for signal cable and solder on some nice RCA's. A 1 meter cable costs me $5, a 2 meter costs $6.
They sound good. Have fun!
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My system is worth $200k plus right now, this is one of the last things to upgrade before i start pointlessly buying gear for the hell of it. Fyi i ordered the cable. $1150 with shipping and tax. In a week or so I will tell you what I think
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Why are you on this forum? This is my last reply to any of your posts.
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Ok, with $200K in a system, that leaves some options... What is interesting to me is that after spending THAT kind of cash one would not be at least somewhat exposed to the 'high end' and know what one is buying? - It leaves me a bit 'skeptical'.
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Me too, I was going to say the dude keeps referring to money not being a problem, yet he asks us about a $1500 cable...?? I say, just go buy the dang thing and let US know what you think....you and your Dad can sit on your bed together and evaluate it.... (NOT trying to be a smartass) just sayin........ We would be interested in what you find out....
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I think he has come to trust the opinions heard here. Where else would you ask and expect civil responses?
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I find that using DHLabs silver sonic coax is pretty cost effective ($6ish a foot) and it has some of the best materials of any cable, foamed Teflon and a thick silver plated copper center conductor. Not too sure what you'd get that's better for a higher price. Maybe some polymorphic endopolymer dielectric that connects to your toenail for a better listening experience ;)
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The most expensive cable I have purchased (per foot) is Kimber's cheapest. 4PR. So I am clearly not experienced to talk differences between cables that nice. An electrician I know was explaining to me and a buddy about studies saying electrons eventually find the shortest distance between two points. Does that make braided or stranded wire a waste? I don't know. But I have heard differences in my cable explorations but diminishing returns seems obvious at a certain point.
ben
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Kimber braids their cables as a form of EMI and RFI sheilding. The wires in the braid are never parallel therefore they don't act like an antenna.
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I'm going to confess. I have Cardas Natural (?) Reference cables from my Eros to my FP. For the 1/2 meter that listed for about $800.
It sounded, to me, better than anything else I put there.
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No one here needs to feel compelled to offer judgment about what someone else decides to spend on something. I have had customers with systems that cost them $200K and more. I also have customers that have simply bought a Crack that they use with an iPod and some used Sennheisers. I have heard systems at both levels that knocked me out and others at both levels that drove me away.
Searching for some kind of standard that says spending X dollars will always give me X results is IME, pointless. I guess I am supposed to be some sort of champion of bang for the buck, but consider for a moment that I was willing to spend crazy amounts of money to start up a record label that puts music out on reel to reel tape. We all have different priorities. Some of you guys who might lament a cable that costs $1500, or $15000 or even $15 might be sitting in a room with 14 different headphone amps or have a $150,000 car in your garage.
No matter what the hobby is, try to make sure that the obsession remains a sweet one.
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Cardas wire does sound nice. The wire I've used by them has a nice warm tone. The interior geometry is made up of a bunch of different sizes of enameled conductors, surrounded by a Teflon / PTFE dielectric. Usually their fancier cables have a number of Teflon tubes isolating the conductor. I generally just use the off-the-shelf, per the foot Cardas wire and skip all the air tubes when building interconnects, but I'd imagine the fancier cables could offer better isolation.
No matter what the hobby is, try to make sure that the obsession remains a sweet one.
Good point :)
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I think it all depends on your priorities. Given the choice between buying a $1500 cable or $1500 of music, I would pick the latter. Others might differ.
To change the subject slightly. I tend to think of the music itself as another link in the chain. I have found in the past with my tube taster line stage that I prreferred certain types of music with one tube and other music with a different tube. I suspect the same might be true for cables but have never bothered to try it out. If it were true then you might prefer the $1.50 cable to the $1500 cable depending on the music.
ray
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Of course. The real cost of anything is not having something else.
I don't care what anyone spends for anything, just what I spend.
Cause buying something means I can't buy something else.
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Back to the OP's question. I couldn't tell him what something will sound like to him because we all hear differently. What I think is important may not be what he thinks is important. Not to mention the different music, system, ways we listen, volume level etc.
The best, probably only way to know is hear it with your own ears, brain, system, room etc. Even if a cable were called out that 20 of us used we could at best offer some generalization.
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Earwaxxer I am sorry, but I have been a bit busy. Please re ask any questions and I will answer them. Dont stop posting on my thread. Well gentleman, I ordered it today, it cost me about $1200, so $300 less than I thought. Wireworld Platnium Starlight 0.5m coaxial cable. I will let you all know whats up with it when I get it.
And someone made crack at my bed and me and my pops listening to the cable there. I still cant stop laughing. Keep it up. Anyone who asked a question that didnt get a response please be so gracious as to repost and I will answer
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Well, down to $1200, its a no brainer ;D
Seriously, even if I had the means, I don't know if I could do it. Being fundamentally a cheapskate ;) Plus I have more wire and plugs on hand that I could do nothing but DIY interconnects for some time.
But hay, let us know what you think...John
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Pure poetry from the Doc and Mr. G... Crack?? , the ONLY crack being made in this site is an amazing headphone amplifier.... I will reiterate for you... IF money isn't a problem, buy it and both you and your father can tell us what you 2 find out... We would be interested.. nothing more than this... :)
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Chris, I did buy it. Now its just waiting time.
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Cool...IF you ever want or can/have tried Harmonic Technology's Photon range, I would love to hear your thoughts on those also..Interesting design...
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What is that chris? A type of cable?
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Your post is causing me to muse. Is digital harder to transmit than analog?
Digital is a series of steps, like a square wave. Square waves start and end with an "infinite" frequency," the rise and fall of the square wave. This is hard to achieve without some delay, that is, a finite rise time.
Trying to remember some of what I learned in school, transmission lines need to be terminated properly. Any mis-match in impedance between source and cable or cable and termination (destination) causes reflections (echoes) back the opposite direction, smearing of the signal.
So IF I have had enough coffee, the source impedance and destination impedance are as critical as the velocity of propagation, intrinsic impedance (same as the source and destination impedance) and the cable capacitance.
This leads me to believe a good digital cable should be a well engineered device for proper operation. Maybe they should include their own termination device?
There was some fooling around with a slotted line and a TDR in the lab that week. It had a lot to do with standing waves. And it is time for more coffee.
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Yep, check it out on their site.. And Mr. G, I am not sure who's post you are referring to, but you prove to me just how much I don't belong here hahaha, I tried hard to follow your post with my very limited technical understanding.. I will get coffee also and try again.. :) All I can say is, you're the man!...
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They seem interresting enough. Can't say I will go for them. But if I come accross a pair I will pick them up and let you guys know
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Awesome... Thank you kindly...
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Grainger,
I don't understand the technical issues, but what you are describing matches up with why Blue Jeans Cable makes a point of using Canare RCAP plugs on their coaxial cables. Here is what Canare has to say about these plugs:
"Generic
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That's one thing I obsess about. I like to change out any 50ohm (or less) RCA style digital connections with 75ohm BNC. It's a relatively cheap process, just pull the RCA out, drill a larger hole, deburr, install and solder in a Vampire $12 BNC chassis connector (http://www.partsconnexion.com/vampire_56013.html) and now you're rocking at 75 ohms :)
There's also the 110ohm AES EBU balanced digital cables, I wrote about those here (http://www.diyaudioblog.com/2013/02/aes-ebu-110-ohm-digital-cable.html):
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Well, cabling trade-offs have always been between full+smooth or lean+detail. However, there is a different kind of animal. Liquid metal conductors are a complete shift in performance. Very costly and your ear would have to make up its own mind about them. I'm just lucky to have a pair of prototypes. :P
Unfortunately the HD800 connectors proved to be too finicky for Teo to go that route. :(
http://www.teoaudio.com/about.php
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IIRC, Paul Joppa said the RCA plug/jack was invented for connections inside a radio. It wasn't designed to carry the smallest (phono) signal within an audio system.
IMHO, The BNC connector should have been adopted by manufacturers in the 70s when high end components started to roll out.
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Well, cabling trade-offs have always been between full+smooth or lean+detail. However, there is a different kind of animal. Liquid metal conductors are a complete shift in performance. Very costly and your ear would have to make up its own mind about them. I'm just lucky to have a pair of prototypes. :P
Unfortunately the HD800 connectors proved to be too finicky for Teo to go that route. :(
http://www.teoaudio.com/about.php
Galinstan, presumably? Kind of like making an interconnect from solder? Or a thermometer?
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Interesting, liquid metal. I know of only one and it seems to be treated as a toxic chemical these days (I rolled it around on my hands for decades, but that might be a clarification). Maybe that is the reason for recycling?
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I wonder how easily the gallium could leak out...
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I remember reading about liquid cables before. Many years ago there was another company making some sort of liquid ceramic something speaker cable.
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According to Wikipedia, which knows all, Gallium melts at 85F. Is there a heater in the cables? My house never reaches 85.
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Gallium melts at 85 deg. Fahrenheit. Galinstan is a eutectic alloy that, according to Wikipedia, has a melting point of (-2) deg. Fahrenheit in most forms (some forms apparently have a melting point of 52 deg. Fahrenheit, although it isn't clear from the article if these are actually Galinstan or some other alloy entirely).
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Why have I never hears of this element/compound before? I'm stunned!
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This is what happens when you stop subscribing to audiophile newsrags, Grainger. All of a sudden you find yourself floundering, unable to keep up to speed on the latest alloys used in 0.5M interconnects costing over $2,500...
;)
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Yea, it's right there on the periodic table - next to unobtanium!
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The MSDS sheet for the cables offers a lot of insight into what they are.
-PB
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It's most definitely liquid at room temp, buuut I'm not privy to the compound mix. Lots of RND. Years of listening to tunes, watching the occasional movie. Yes, it's hard but someone had to do it. ;D
But I have to add that you have to have a lot invested in good gear before you dump money into cables. Otherwise they are just going to reveal your crappy gear. :o Or another way to say it would be you would hear no change.
Not saying that's me. I'm a newbie audiophile just flushing out. On the other hand I was ruined for years at the hands of a evil master (before he was part of Teo Audio) and didn't have to buy my own gear.
Thus the crack OTL kit is slowly trundling across the country, slowly making its way to me. I occasionally poke at my shiny new WES51 and roll of Cardas QE solder. Can't wait to hear how it performs with 800's and hoping to be impressed. Perhaps I can tweak it to outperform my Lyr with the 6922 Siemens Cca? *shrug* It's all good fun.
http://www.teoaudio.com/about.php
Galinstan, presumably? Kind of like making an interconnect from solder? Or a thermometer?
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Not privy to the compound mix, meaning you haven't read the MSDS? It's rather clearly defined there, at least to within a few percent. We may be attaching RCA plugs to thermometers next week at BHQ.
http://youtu.be/VZC_bCwiVOA (http://youtu.be/VZC_bCwiVOA)
BTW I'm seeing a retail price of $189 for 50 grams of the stuff. It's around 7 times the specific gravity of water, so that's a pretty small quantity and a high price is at least partly justified by that. I bet some of the safety certificat ion was costly too.
Interesting also to note that the conductivity is roughly an order of magnitude lower than copper, it's even a bit lower than lead.
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No, I haven't read the MSDS. Guess I should. It's good advice I give out but don't use I see... :)
Not privy to the compound mix, meaning you haven't read the MSDS? It's rather clearly defined there, at least to within a few percent. We may be attaching RCA plugs to thermometers next week at BHQ.
http://youtu.be/VZC_bCwiVOA (http://youtu.be/VZC_bCwiVOA)
BTW I'm seeing a retail price of $189 for 50 grams of the stuff. It's around 7 times the specific gravity of water, so that's a pretty small quantity and a high price is at least partly justified by that. I bet some of the safety certificat ion was costly too.
Interesting also to note that the conductivity is roughly an order of magnitude lower than copper, it's even a bit lower than lead.
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No, I haven't read the MSDS. Guess I should. It's good advice I give out but don't use I see... :)
I'm a bit confused. I have to wonder why they released the mix in the MSDS. IMHO they didn't have to. You can point to the entire cleaning product industry who does exactly that under the guise of 'trade secret'. I guess Teo just doesn't want to be like that. IMHO that's shooting yourself in the foot if you want to sell a product.
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There's only a few of things that "room temperature liquid metal" could be, and I would think he wants to make it clear that he is not using mercury or a cesium/potassium/sodium alloy, which would definitely freak out 90% of the population.
Makes me think of Arnold saying "hemi-metal-poly-alloy" in T2.
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Yep, mercury was my first guess, especially when I heard he was shipping in hazmat containers originally...
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If anyone wants ti ask a question or see what I said about my new coaxial, go in digital and one thread I believe is called FYI about something,
D(oesnt actually say something) read and ask away
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Check the newest post here:
http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,1574.0.html