Eros Output Caps

[Grainger49]

Alex,

Let's start with my personal mantra (often posted in the Bottlehead threads).  Capacitors, wire and tubes are a matter of personal taste.  Capacitors are much like spicing.  Do you like habanero peppers, bell peppers or ancho peppers?  We each look for different things in our playback.

The #1 thing for me is soundstage followed by clear clean highs.  But the highs are where I have my hearing loss (isn't it always in the highs?).  Ask PJ who worked around jet engines!  We, he and I, know what loud is!

My system is in my signature, no reason to duplicate it here.  My room is 24' long and 14' wide.  The speakers are about 1/3 of the way into the room and my chair about 1/3 of the way from the back wall.  So a rule of thirds.  The speakers are well away from any wall.  I use a BA sub and fill in my hearing loss with super tweeters.  Software, the music I'm listening to is detailed in the posts (I think, isn't it?).

I have soldered a pair of wires on the terminals where each of the Solen caps were.  Those wires come out and I attach the capacitors with the jumpers.  Look at the picture in reply #10.  I know what I am listening to but I'm pretty experienced at listening.  I started this in the 60s.  I can only report what I hear, not what anyone else hears.

Going back this is what I have said about the KK PIO:

"...they are surprisingly good sounding.  Definitely better for me than the stock Solen."

"Comparing to the KK K75-24 that were playing the Solen is not as clear in the mids and highs."  Not that the highs were the best, just better and more detailed than the Solen.

If I have conveyed that the KK PIO are as good as the Mundorf, that is wrong.  The Mundorf caps sound the best.  But the PIO are not as bad as I had assumed they would be.  The stock Solen were run in for 2 or 3 weeks while I leisurely built the Eros.  And have remained in there till I started this thread.  So they were completely broken in, as were the KK Teflons.  I think the Teflons sit at second place.

I just went from KK Teflon to KK PIO.  The top end doesn't shimmer like the Teflon.  The midrange is warm and present.  It is kind of seductive.  The bass is good but now as well delineated as with more expensive caps.  But they are very "Tubey" sounding.  Like I say, seductive.

Have I answered all your questions?

[ALEXZ]

Thank you.  The reason why I asked about environment is the following, k75 cap is popular remedy to mitigate hardness of SS electronics and digital records. That is right in sync with your description of the "tubes" sound. Objective parameters  of  K75 is plainly awfull, this a 50hz capacitor by design. In my experience, Solen is much more accurately sounding capacitor.
Totally different story with the FT caps, great caps all around.. Well...except size. 
Of course you are right it is all very subjective topics, but I guess the reference point is the sound of the live acoustic instrument, never mind how romantic and golden is the sound of the component, but if it makes cello sounds like it warped in a towel, than probably something's wrong. That was my impression from the k75 capacitors.  Btw, there are also number of reasonably (well...for audio) priced caps in the price range between solens and mundorfs s/g that could give great results, for example dynamicaps, mundorf ZN.

[Paul Joppa]

This might be better served in it's own thread, but I will ask anyway. What is the science behind the long burn-in for caps with Teflon dielectric?

Cheers,
Shawn

When you find out, please let everyone else know!  :^)

Seriously, there are a few theories out there, none of which are plausible, and few of which are even testable in any reasonable way. "Reasonable" means without a huge $$$ grant, and with results while we are still around to see them.

My perception, of course!

[ALEXZ]

Paul,
Are there any explanations for caps break-in effect ( not teflon, but in general)? For some of them (mundorf s/g  for example)  magnitude of changes is not subtle at all, almost like a speakers.

[Noskipallwd]

Considering some of the 'research' that our government has awarded grants for maybe we should apply. Maybe if we tied it in to the research on this field mouse here in Colorado, they got 20 mil. for that.

Cheers,
Shawn

[Grainger49]

   .  .  .    Heh heh, yeah the Solens can creep up on you. Some say they take as long as the teflons to sound their best; in any case the process (after the first 20 hours or so) is slow and undramatic.

The Solens got a long burn in.  I finished my ALL STOCK build this fall and I have just begun to tweak the Eros.  The Solens have had several hundred hours break in.

The Mundorf S/G/O went in permanently today.

[Paul Joppa]

Paul,
Are there any explanations for caps break-in effect ( not teflon, but in general)? For some of them (mundorf s/g  for example)  magnitude of changes is not subtle at all, almost like a speakers.

I hear the same thing with most capacitors, and it makes no difference whether I listen throughout the breakin process or not - I tried it and really hoped that might be the explanation but it's not. I have never found an explanation with either reliable facts to back it up, or enough physics to make it plausible. Fortunately my experience is as an engineer; if I know what works and it is repeatable, then I can design with it whether or not I understand what is going on.

[debk]

Sorry to resurrect an old post, but I have replaced the 1.0uf Mundorf silver/oil caps with  0.22uf V-cap TFTF.  The V-caps are fully broken in have come from an older project that I have cannibalized.
The first thing I notice is that the sound is much clearer, the 1.0uf Mundorf sounded somewhat "smeared" compared to V-caps.  Soundstage is somewhat more immersive and more realistic sounding. I notice no change in the bass extension with the lower value caps.  Overall much more pleasurable to listen to.

Don't know if this is do to the V-caps or the value change, probably some of both.  I know changed too many variables at once, the more scientific way would have been to use a 0.22uf Mundorf silver/oil first and then tried the V-caps, but I didn't have them to try.
The bottom line is that I am happy with the change and in the end that all that counts.

Deb

[Grainger49]

Amen Deb!  That is all that counts.  Checking I have a PM from PB saying a 400V cap is fine.  The V-Cap comes in 300V and 600V.  Hmmm, the difference is about $28.  Does an official Bottlehead want to chime in on saving $56 a pair?

I could go for either, but being the avowed cheapskate that I am I would like to save the bucks.  I could get a 1.75l bottle of Woodford reserve for that savings.

[Paul Birkeland]

Amen Deb!  That is all that counts.  Checking I have a PM from PB saying a 400V cap is fine.  The V-Cap comes in 300V and 600V.  Hmmm, the difference is about $28.  Does an official Bottlehead want to chime in on saving $56 a pair?

I could go for either, but being the avowed cheapskate that I am I would like to save the bucks.  I could get a 1.75l bottle of Woodford reserve for that savings.

I wouldn't be bothered by a 300V cap in the Eros.  An unloaded B+ rail in that power supply is going to creep up there a bit, but we have the CCS of the 6DJ8 feeding a plate load from plate to ground, so there is some built in voltage protection there that should take care of you.

-PB

[Grainger49]

Thank you Paul! 

Deb,

I was wondering about the 0.22uF value, then remembered that I put in one 0.22uF KK Teflon and it sounded more than fine on the bottom end (with Triangle Zerius and sub back then).  Into the 100k FP 2 pot that calculates as a -3dB point of 7.23 Hz and essentially flat at 72.3 Hz.  That is a faint roll off between the two frequencies.

I think Paul pushed me into it, I'll go for the high priced spread here.  And break them in on my Eagle 2C (sold the GainClone) downstairs for a month.

[debk]

Grainger

I used the 0.22uf value after reading some of your previous post in this thread.  I think it sonds better than the 1uf I had in there already.  I probably would have gone for a 0.47uf but I already had the the 0.22uf


Deb

[Grainger49]

Glad to be some help.

(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi244.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fgg7%2FGrainger49%2FSmiles%2FTipHat.gif&hash=e6ef7f0d5488d01ff7ef90294fc834dbd255538c)

[Atom Shop]

Glad to be some help.
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Your input on caps, Grainger49, is more than "help"!

BUT, if you those of you out there wanna make your head swim (or explode! ) as to what might be other options in the cap rolling department, check these out.

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
http://www.v-cap.com/pdf-files/21capacitorshootout.pdf
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/0708/capacitor1.htm - parts 1, 2 and 3
https://www.head-fi.org/t/284863/orgy-of-capacitors-the-cap-thread - very length-y
http://diy.ecpaudio.com/p/some-notes-on-coupling-capacitors.html
http://tech.juaneda.com/en/articles/electrolyticcapacitors.html - electrolytics
http://www.laventure.net/tourist/caps.htm

Even though some of this stuff may be appear dated the results make for some interesting debate, discussion, arguments, etc. My personal experience with some of the Russian goodies has been very rewarding.

[Grainger49]

I think the key difference here is that I am not paid to make these comparisons.  I have to buy the capacitors myself, mostly without a personal income.

I would really be interested to see the total cost of the capacitors in one of these reviews.