Taking orders :)

xcortes · 189129

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Offline denti alligator

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Reply #120 on: September 07, 2013, 05:02:07 PM
Any update?

- Sam

Rega P3-24 (w/AT 150MLX) w/Groovetracer upgrades / Eros II / FLAC >J.River >DSD256 >Gustard X20 / Moreplay > Stereomour II / Klipsch Forte II w/Crites upgrades / C4S S.E.X. 2.0 +Nickel MQ Iron / Speedball Crack / Sennheiser HD600 w/Cardas cable


Offline John Swenson

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Reply #121 on: September 15, 2013, 12:48:29 PM
The new prototype board is shipping to Doc tomorrow!

There were some very difficult tasks in the last few weeks. The S/PDIF subsystem and the USB subsystem have very different architectures, getting them merged together was a tough task.

The digital filter in the FPGA had some problems as well, I found out it took two clock cycles longer to compute the filter than a sample takes, not good! (BTW this sounds really weird!) So I had to shrink the filter a little bit, fortunately there were some zeros at the beginning and end so I could shrink it a little, but then it wasn't a power of two. Now I know why they always make these as a power of two. The memories always come in powers of two, but try getting the filter to work when you have 1776 taps, whew that was a mess, but it is all working great now.

For those few that haven't heard my thoughts on digital filters, a quick synopsis: As far as I know all digital filters inside DAC chips use special DSP "tricks" to get really good spec sheet numbers at low cost, BUT these tricks wreak havoc with the "musicality" of the sound. This is why people like NOS DACs. BUT with a NOS you still have the aliases which cause a "dirty" sound. So what I am doing is relaxing the requirements of the filter, so it doesn't have to meet those insane numbers in the DAC spec sheets, the result is I can implement a simple filter that fits in an inexpensive FPGA.

The result is something most people have never heard, the musicality of NOS without the "dirty" sound of the aliases. It's simply stunning. Listening to your favorite music with this filter is a whole new experience.

Thanks all for your patience, this is really coming together now, it should be well worth the wait.

John S.

John Swenson
DAC designer
Well Tempered Record player -> Seduction
Moded Squeezebox->DIY DAC
BDT preamp->813 monster SE amp
DIY "Bazooka" Lowther speakers


Offline denti alligator

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Reply #122 on: September 15, 2013, 12:54:25 PM
Totally psyched!

Is this it for your side of the thing, John? If so, I imagine we're very close to getting to actually order it.

- Sam

Rega P3-24 (w/AT 150MLX) w/Groovetracer upgrades / Eros II / FLAC >J.River >DSD256 >Gustard X20 / Moreplay > Stereomour II / Klipsch Forte II w/Crites upgrades / C4S S.E.X. 2.0 +Nickel MQ Iron / Speedball Crack / Sennheiser HD600 w/Cardas cable


Offline earwaxxer

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Reply #123 on: September 15, 2013, 01:15:24 PM
It will be refreshing to have someone like John to give our curious minds something to chew on. Not just cliche sounding talking points.. Ex. min phase, dither?

Eric
Emotiva XPA-2, Magnepan MMG (mod), Quickie (mod), JRiver, Wyrd4sound uLink, Schiit Gungnir, JPS Digital power cord, MIT power cord, JPS Labs ultraconductor wire throughout, HSU sub. powered by Crown.


Offline John Swenson

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Reply #124 on: September 15, 2013, 03:07:42 PM
There is still more to do. This was a prototype board, I found six hardware issues which took a number of "red wires" on the prototype, I have to redo the board to incorporate these. One of the big problems was the startup of the XMOS processor, it turns out you have to have a specific sequence of voltages coming up and reset pulse. Unfortunately these requirements are not listed in the spec sheet, they are in a separate app note. Unfortunately I missed that when I designed the board. It's very easy to design a circuit to implement the requirements so it's not a problem.

One thing I'm changing is the "aux interface". I originally had a hardware interface using the FPGA and I was writing a protocol to send stuff over it. But Once I got working with the XMOS processors I'm throwing that out and using their Xlink interface which is specifically design to talk between chips. The interface and protocols are already built into all their processors. This makes it really easy to implement add on boards to do all kinds of things. One neat aspect of this is the remote processors can booth themselves over the Xlink from the "master" so you don't even have a way to program the remotes, they just program themselves over the link.

So there is some work still that I have to do, but all the basic functionality is in this prototype so Doc and company can start working on the tube output stage and floorplanning the top plate etc.

As to buzz words, the filter is intermediate phase. A linear phase filter has equal amounts of pre and post ringing but fairly short amount of time in each. The minimum phase has no pre ringing, but in order to get the same over all similar functionality it has to have a much longer amount of post ringing. The intermediate phase splits the difference and has a small amount of pre ringing and post ringing that is a little bit longer than linear phase but much less than minimum phase. This is also deliberately a short filter, that means the amount of time it spends ringing is a very short amount of time compared to other filters. The tradeoff is that the ultimate amount of alias reduction is only about 80db, whereas those in modern DAC chips are going to 130 db or more. This is the tradeoff I mentioned, by not aiming for nearly as much ultimate image rejection I get a filter that sounds much better.

There is no dither involved, it simply i not needed in the DAC.

Lets see, other buzz words, it has ground plane isolation with special high quality isolators on the signals. This does a very good job minimizing the ground plane noise from the digital chips from getting into the analog side of things. This gives a marvelous very "black" background. It also significantly cuts down on the outside world affects such as source component interaction and cable affects. It doesn't completely eliminate them, but it does significantly reduce these interactions. For example I have been listening to all three inputs (S/PDIF coax and TOSLINK and USB) and cannot tell hardly any difference between them. There are some very slight differences, but they are very small and hard to determine. There is only a very tiny difference in sound with different source components (different computers, OS etc, at least the ones I have on hand) I've spent a lot of work trying to decrease these sensitivities and I think I've done a pretty good job.

John S.

John Swenson
DAC designer
Well Tempered Record player -> Seduction
Moded Squeezebox->DIY DAC
BDT preamp->813 monster SE amp
DIY "Bazooka" Lowther speakers


Offline earwaxxer

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Reply #125 on: September 15, 2013, 06:42:06 PM
Much appreciated John! - all imputs sounding similar is quite an accomplishment. Will look forward to the final product!

Eric
Emotiva XPA-2, Magnepan MMG (mod), Quickie (mod), JRiver, Wyrd4sound uLink, Schiit Gungnir, JPS Digital power cord, MIT power cord, JPS Labs ultraconductor wire throughout, HSU sub. powered by Crown.


Offline Doc B.

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Reply #126 on: September 20, 2013, 07:46:05 AM
The latest DAC arrived safe and sound day before yesterday. We have a little work to do to figure out what happened to the TOSLINK receiver (or maybe the TOSLINK output from my Mac Mini), and thus I have been listening exclusively via the most important input - USB.

My initial reaction was - YES! It is a very good DAC. The midrange clarity and depth was the first thing that struck me. John is very generous in his complements of the built in filter included with the DAC chip (which is in fact quite good) but his filter pretty soundly whups it in terms of easy presentation and a sense of dynamics. Bass kicks ass and treble is very smooth and open.

The DAC also seems to shift sample rates with ease. I have listened up to 192kHz so far and it's all really nice sounding with 44K sounding super clean and dynamic too.

Note that this is all without a tube output. It does of course really have a tube output, in the form of the tube preamp it is playing into. Thus we will probably offer the DAC without a tube stage initially to keep the price as reasonable as possible and maybe offer a tube stage later as an upgrade - if it is deemed an upgrade....

Nope, don't have a release date. Nope, don't know the price yet. Nope, not ready to share in-depth details of the components used. We need to work out layout, power etc. But I will share a release date and pricing as soon as we are ready to.

Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President For Life
Bottlehead Corp.


Offline denti alligator

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Reply #127 on: September 20, 2013, 08:16:30 AM
Cool!

So the tube output stage would be a kind of pre-amplification? Why or why not would this be inessential? Can you explain what the difference with and without would be, especially if one already has a tube line stage such as the Quickie.

- Sam

Rega P3-24 (w/AT 150MLX) w/Groovetracer upgrades / Eros II / FLAC >J.River >DSD256 >Gustard X20 / Moreplay > Stereomour II / Klipsch Forte II w/Crites upgrades / C4S S.E.X. 2.0 +Nickel MQ Iron / Speedball Crack / Sennheiser HD600 w/Cardas cable


Offline Paul Birkeland

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Reply #128 on: September 20, 2013, 08:29:58 AM
Doc B. is saying that the DAC doesn't need a tube output stage, that's all.  (You plug the DAC into your preamp/integrated)

Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Offline denti alligator

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Reply #129 on: September 20, 2013, 09:06:37 AM
Doc B. is saying that the DAC doesn't need a tube output stage, that's all.  (You plug the DAC into your preamp/integrated)

I understand, but if it's not needed why was it initially planned with one? Would it also have doubled as a headphone amp or would it have been to compensate for those who would only be using a Crack or SEX?

- Sam

Rega P3-24 (w/AT 150MLX) w/Groovetracer upgrades / Eros II / FLAC >J.River >DSD256 >Gustard X20 / Moreplay > Stereomour II / Klipsch Forte II w/Crites upgrades / C4S S.E.X. 2.0 +Nickel MQ Iron / Speedball Crack / Sennheiser HD600 w/Cardas cable


Offline Paul Birkeland

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Reply #130 on: September 20, 2013, 09:21:42 AM
Originally, the first couple of prototypes needed the extra gain, this one doesn't. 

Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Offline denti alligator

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Reply #131 on: September 20, 2013, 09:30:25 AM
Originally, the first couple of prototypes needed the extra gain, this one doesn't.

Got it. Definitely good news if it means just as good and at a lower price!

- Sam

Rega P3-24 (w/AT 150MLX) w/Groovetracer upgrades / Eros II / FLAC >J.River >DSD256 >Gustard X20 / Moreplay > Stereomour II / Klipsch Forte II w/Crites upgrades / C4S S.E.X. 2.0 +Nickel MQ Iron / Speedball Crack / Sennheiser HD600 w/Cardas cable


Offline xcortes

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Reply #132 on: September 20, 2013, 09:38:58 AM
The Bottlehead Dac evolved into the Bottle-less Dac :)

Xavier Cortes


Offline Doc B.

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Reply #133 on: September 26, 2013, 01:04:40 PM
Just a small update - we have started to compare running the DAC protoype with an inexpensive wall wart vs. battery vs. a pretty hefty linear supply. Still need to do some more evaluation before I have a definite plan in mind, but it's quite possible that we will suggest battery power as one good sounding option, supply parts with the kit to make your own power cable to hook the battery up to the DAC and suggest some sources for a 6V SLA battery and charger (we don't want to deal with the regulations regarding shipping batteries). The current draw of the DAC is estimated at around 400mA, so a $10-$15 12AH SLA might last 30 hours per charge. That's all hand waving, not hard numbers.

We're also working on the layout. Hope to have more to offer about that in the next week or two. As the DAC is breaking in it's sounding very, very nice, and John's digital filter sounds great.

Due to the level of circuit sophistication the pre stuffed boards for this DAC are complex and quite expensive. I'm wrestling a bit with the pricing now that we have the project fairly well developed and I think the price will be under $1000. Probably not much under but we're squeezing it as hard as we can, short of hurting the sound.

Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President For Life
Bottlehead Corp.


Offline denti alligator

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Reply #134 on: September 26, 2013, 01:22:18 PM
Do you think it might be ready for Christmas?

- Sam

Rega P3-24 (w/AT 150MLX) w/Groovetracer upgrades / Eros II / FLAC >J.River >DSD256 >Gustard X20 / Moreplay > Stereomour II / Klipsch Forte II w/Crites upgrades / C4S S.E.X. 2.0 +Nickel MQ Iron / Speedball Crack / Sennheiser HD600 w/Cardas cable