USB Cable

[danosol]

Do USB cable make a difference when used with a DAC?  I've read yes and no.  I just want to know what you guys think.

[earwaxxer]

I think that one has been pretty much laid to rest, and the answer is - most definitely! Gordan Rankin of Wavelength audio was one of the first 'pioneers' of USB to notice the effect of USB cable on sound quality. Fortunately for us, there are now many good options for high end USB cables at 'affordable' prices. I went with audioquest just because they reviewed well and had an affordable entry level. The funny thing is, I ordered a 15ft Forest from The Cable Company, and since they didnt have one in stock, they sent me a Carbon for no extra cost. I can dig that. I wouldnt have paid that much for a USB cable, but it does sound good. Buy it once and forget about it.

[danosol]

Cool.  Was thinking about getting a 2.5 ft forest.  Would that be sufficient or should I go with the cinnamon ( I think that's what it's called) which is the next step up.

[adamct]

I have never been able to swallow the idea that a digital cable matters to sound quality, provided it meets the minimum standards for the signal/cable format. Theoretically, a cable could matter every once in a blue moon at the margins, and prevent an isolated 0 from being read as a 1, but my understanding is that most digital signals have error correction built in, and the odds of that stray "0" or "1" being audible are about as close to zero as you can get.

I'm open to counter-arguments, but I am deeply, deeply dubious. My own, personal, empirical tests haven't shown any differences, either.

In any case, I can namely roughly a million things you would be better off spending that money on...

Now, that said, it doesn't bother me if others choose to spend their money on high-end USB cables, and I'm not trying to change anyone's mind on this subject. I only chimed in because the OP was soliciting views.

Best regards,
Adam

[danosol]

Thanks Adam.  I'm definitely going to think about this.  Hopefully a friend of mine at a local Hi-Fi shop will let me try one out so I can make an educated decision.

[KevO]

I began an IT career (Data Processing) in 1974. I too thought the digital cable between my CD player and new outboard DAC could make no difference. 1's and 0's.

That was the biggest sonic change(benefit!) of any cable in my system. I didn't have to believe it, I could easily hear it.

I've used the Cable Company over the years so I could have the chance of listening to cables in my system in my room. Sent many back and purchased the few that were excellent. A good way to learn IMHO.

-Kevin

[earwaxxer]

Yep, The Cable Company folks are great. They also give good discounts if you order there frequently.

[Jim R.]

Yes, most definitely cables in the digital realm can matter, and here's why...

In terms of digital audio, consumer level interfaces such as spdif, firewire, thunderbolt, and usb protocols do *not* have robust error detection and correction protocols.  So I like to think of these all as *hail mary* interfaces* -- they carry the data from the computer or serverr to the dac, and you hope that what was sent is what got to the other end.  So some of the tools designers use to get that as good as possible are good quality conductors and shielding, proper end to end impedance characteristics, good quality connections, separate power and signal runs, etc.  And on the computer or server side, good quality power supplies that give as clean a ground signal as is possible, galvanic isolation, and so on.

The last place in the chain where you can count on the data being exactly equal to what was on the disc drive is in the computer's buffer memory, and probably (but not always) in the usb ports i/o buffer.  These pathways do have robust error detection and correction protocols in place.  Note, this is why I think bit-perfect lights on dacs are silly -- we haven't yet invented the pre-cognitive chipset.  So probably the bit-perfect lights are there to tell you that what came in on the usb receiver is what made it to the dac, but there is no guarantee that that was what was in memory.  Asynch or not also only helps the possibillity that things will transfer more cleanly but again does not guarantee anything.

So, yes, better cables, especially when used on better dacs can and do make a difference.

-- Jim

[denti alligator]

Unlike analog, this should be measurable. Are the same 0s and 1s that are sent on one end appearing on the other? Yes or no. Isn't it that simple? And aren't there studies to show this one way or the other?

[Natural Sound]

This is one of those subjects where we will all have to agree to disagree. My only advice is to trust your ears. That being said, here is my opinion. I was fortunate to be in a position to try a few different USB cables in my system. Here is what I concluded. A $35 cable did indeed sound better than a generic $4 USB hard drive cable. But a premium $550 cable sounded about the same as the $35 cable to my ears. Again, that is my opinion and you know what they say about opinions.  

[Paul Joppa]

For myself, I think it falls into the realm of things we don't know we don't know.

The 1's and 0's are indeed highly reliable; otherwise we'd have problems loading new software all the time. So I seriously doubt that the observed sonic differences are due to failure of the digits. At one time, it looked like jitter was a good explanation - when we "discovered" it. Now there are too many solutions to the jitter question, that are not correlated well to the sonic effects. I'm confident we'll "discover" a few more things someday, we just don't know what they are yet.

Some have proposed subtle modulations of the power supplies, affected by jitter upstream of the re-clocking. It's plausible I guess - power supply improvements are almost always sonic positives.

[danosol]

Very interesting replies.  Hearing will always be believing, whether placebo or not.  Sometimes you want it to sound better to justify the purchase. 

I have some old Audioquest RCA's lying around (Ruby's and Jades) from the mid 90's, now I'm sure technology has changed a bit on cables since then, but these were kinda pricey for a guy in his mid twenties back then.

I implemented these cables in my current system with my Crack and compared them to my mogami home built cables terminated with Canare ends.  I thought for sure the Audioquest cables would sound better as they were professionally assembled and cost more even back then compared to what I paid for my home built RCA's.  Well, I prefer the cables that I built and my least favorite are the Ruby's which were the most expensive out of the bunch (probably a sound signature preference I'm sure).

I know that this doesn't correlate to the USB discussion as much, but I think what Natural Sound says holds a lot of credo with me.  When do you say when, or how deep are your pockets.  Does a $500 USB cable really outclass a $35 cable.  Personally for me  even if there was a difference it would have to be significant for me to even consider that kind cash on a USB cable, or any cable for that matter.

I guess get the best you can, for what is within your means.  I just wasn't sure, like others, as to the viability and siginificance of high end USB Cables.

[Doc B.]

There are what I find to be quite obvious differences in the sonic changes imparted by cables. I'm not sure why some people can't hear them, but it may have to do with system resolution. And price has absolutely nothing to do with the differences. Some of the worst cables I've heard were the most expensive.

[KevO]

My recommendation is to buy nothing to begin with. The Cable Company will lend you 3 o 4 cables for 30 days with a deposit. The deposit goes toward a purchase from them.

This method of testing cables turns expectation bias on its ear IMHO. I never want the expensive cable to sound best. I want the underdog to win and save some bucks. And, like Doc says, that happens. I have often sent them all back because none of them sounded correct in my system.

This is where synergy wins out. You will know it when you hear it. I also never try out cables that are way beyond my budget. I do not want the temptation.

-Kevin

[4krow]

I've got to chime in here to say that again, my opinion is that connection made by the cable ends has as much to do with the final result as anything. I know this from using one cable that had insufficient connection to my cable box. After buying a better cable, problem was solved. Beyond that, when it comes to the (digital) cable itself, I can't say that I have much reason to believe it could a notable difference. Maybe I should test my theory be fore spewing it out. Analog, well, that's quite a different story.