In search of why vinyl lovers love vinyl

[ssssly]

I was not able to find much about the p300 but from what I could gather it is a pretty standard 80s automatic TT. I was trying to find some info on the arm for you, but was unable to come up with much. Some of those 80s TTs have proprietary cartridges on them so you have to buy replacement styluses direct from the manufacturer. Which in this case isn't a huge deal, they still sell them for about $30, but probably not the best sounding out there. I was unfortunately unable to find if the arm can be adjusted for tracing force and angle. Some of those auto tables are not.

The biggest issue with that era of decks is the heavy use of plastic in both the tables and arms. Makes things sound hollow and like someone is playing music at the end of a tunnel. Can be attenuated with proper damping and mass loading but almost impossible to get rid of.

And I think that once you start really looking you will be surprised at the amount of audio geeks in that area. If you were in Okinawa for some reason I would invite you over to listen to my rig (HW-19 MKV, BEZ, Eros, Paramour, Aiko Horns)but that would be a hell of a flight to listen to some records.

On a side not I would not suggest putting a $300 cart on that table. The entry level Shure and Denon carts sound good enough that most anybody will immediately see how good vinyl can sound for a fraction of the price. And until you get the hang of setting up an arm and cart you could very well destroy a stylus or two in the process (I know I did, but I can be pretty ham fisted sometimes).

If you send me some pics of the arm and table I can help you get the best out of what you have (wish google was of more help). And check out vinylengine. Lots of good info there.

[Grainger49]

I got a brain wave reading Paul's post.  If there is a vinyl shop there, there is a vinyl market.  Whoever buys there has a table!  There have to be closet vinyl-philes around.

[ChrisM]

Paully, a terriffic suggestion.  Thanks a ton.  I will follow up on this.  Yes, I am starved of interaction with other enthusists of hifi out here in the hinterland.  But as you have illustrated, there are some more of us.  I just have to do some research and poke around a bit to find them.

Chris

[ChrisM]

First, thanks to all who have replied, and given thought and advise.

I had a small detour recently when a *new in box* purchase of a MH 2.2 turned out not to be new, missing the manual, anti-skate counter weight, a scratched up cover, and debris on the TT felt.  I sent it back and the seller refunded in full.  Life is full of detours.

I decided to try a less all-or-nothing approach and ordered a Shure M97XE cartridge to see if I could make the playback more pleasing.  The long time it took to get hear gave me time to reseach how to align a cartridge on a TT, something I've never done before.  It finally came, I did my best for a firstime alignment and off I went listing to the 5 vinyl albums I have. 

The sound has improved a lot.  I can say genuinely say the music has become more involving.  I haven't done any A-B vinyl to digital yet but eventually will.  I don't know how much time to allow the cartridge to break in.  And I playing this thing though the built in phono preamp input of a low end pre-pro is not ideal.  Nevertheless, progress has been made.

I droped in on my neighbor last evening to get instructions for feeding their cats while on vacation.  He showed me a box of vinyl he's about to get rid of and a Technic's SL-D2 TT from thirty years ago.  I took the vinyl, most pop and rock stuff I never listen to anymore and the TT.  I don't know if the TT is any better than my similar vintage Yamaha P-300.  Right now I listening to an Eagle live album.  I in the way-back-machine currently at a point about my sophmore year in college.

[Paully]

Obviously you have a lot of things on your list you want to upgrade eventually.  The Shure cartridge was a good buy.  But when you are ready for the next level, the Jico replacement / upgrade styli for the Shure get a lot of really, really good reviews over on audioasylum so you don't have to buy a full on new cartridge, just upgrade the one you've got.  Just a suggestion so you have options.

[Grainger49]

Chris,

Us old guys upgrade in steps to hide what we are up to.  For anyone getting the cash for a top notch turntable (these don't often include arms and never cartridges) is a major outlay.  I'm still hanging on my old mantra that the cartridge makes the greatest difference in sound.  I mean, the cartridge creates (generates) the voltage signal that gets amplified.  So, obviously, it is the most additive part of the vinyl playback.  The turntable and arm are mostly subtractive in their effects.  So if you don't start with it in your cartridge the arm and table can not put it back.

Gee, that is almost a pearl of wisdom.

[ChrisM]

This is an interesting journey.  It's going to be a challenging process for me to decipher what the weakest links in the chain are and decide which one's I'm prepared to tackle.  For instance, right now I'm well aware that this setup doesn't yet produce a sound stage nearly as good as I get with my digital setup.  The center of the sound stage seems very dense to my ear. How much is the result of the cartridge, a first time cartridge alignment, the quality of the stylus, the phono preamp, a cheap TT, or something else?  How long should I be allowing the cartridge to break-in before judging the sound critically to the degree to change something else in the chain?  These are some of the things I guess I'll be wondering about for a while. 

[ChrisM]

Actually, I can tell right now what the weakest link in the chain is - that's the condition of the vinyl.  I'm need to come up with a cleaning system for these things.  I'll have a hard time noticing other improvements unless I fix this first.

[Paully]

That is an absolutely accurate observation, cleaning makes a huge difference.  I am using a Nitty Gritty, Grainger is using a VPI 16.5.  I like his better but I should for 2.5 times the price.  The Nitty Gritty does a fine job and I can recommend it for a cheap entry into record cleaning.  But this is a great topic to be searching through the archives on the vinyl asylum as it has been discussed there in great detail and in depth.

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/bbs.html

[Grainger49]

And another site, AudioKarma.  This is the turntable folder, a search of "Cleaning LP" gave over 200 threads for hits, including a favorite, using wood glue to clean vinyl.  It is good for deeply soiled LPs but I don't use it on cleaner LPs.

Cleaning your LPs seems to be a hot topic for some.  I have read that one use of the old classic Disk Washer would RUIN your records (it won't, it didn't).  But there are all kinds of routines from the simple to the insane.  Believe it or not, my 10 minute routine for both sides of an LP isn't the insane, I'm about mid way between letting the stylus clean the grooves (an equipment reviewer who wrote for Listener stated that) and the truly insane.

[ChrisM]

Well, it's been an interesting month.  First, my short circuit to a entry level table from ebay backfired and I sent it back.  I ended up deciding to get a new cartridge for my nearly 30 year old, very entry level, P300 TT.  Yes, this TT worthy of no serious consideration was to be the platform I am making my judgements on vinyl on - at least for now.  I reseached cartridges.  Became overwhelmed by the variety of possible cartrideges to buy, etc. How can the variety be so large for a technology that's supposed to be dead?  Or are reports of death exagerated?  In the end I bought a Shure M97XE for reasons I don't actually remember.  I read comments for and against it.  I read up on how to align the thing for a couple of weeks before it arrived.  I finally got the courage to mount and align it.  When I started playing it I could tell it sounded a little better than that ancient and abused Ortofon LM20.  Not enough better to give serious consideration.  But I had been given this pile of vinyl from my neighbor want to get rid of his stuff.  So I used it to break in cartridge.  I've been playing album after album.  I've been playing that old vinyl for about two weeks now.  Last weekend I went to one of the few used CD/record shops and pick up a few $1 and $2 albums as well.  Most of the stuff is poor condition and needs cleaning.  However, with in the last week however the sound has improved quite dramatically.  The surface noise has diminished.  And I'm hearing music.  Actually, it sounds....... good.  I don't understand why it can sound good.  It seems like such a cro magnon technology, dragging a needle through a groove.  But I notice two things of interest to me.  One, it sounds much better than I expected.  Even some of the crappy vinyl sounds pleasing.  Second, there is an aesthetic to vinyl that belongs to that medium.  I can't put words to it yet but it's real.  I'm experiencing something new here.  I'm surprised I'm enjoying it.  I have been expecting to write off the purchase of the cartridge fully expecting that I'd conclude it's too inferior of a technology to go back and embrace once again. The cost of a cartridge would be worth it to put and end to my question.  Instead I'm looking for more places with vinyl bins that I can puruse and I'm starting to research record cleaning.  I honestly don't know where this is leading.  I wasn't supposed to get this far.  So now I'm fully off script and wondering where I go from here.  But, there's no rush.  Oh, and yes, my wife is a little worried.... again.  But then she's probably used to it by now. 

[ssssly]

Yeah but tube amps are supposed to be a dead ancient technology as well. As far as cleaning goes I use a gem dandy. Inexpensive and very effective. Does make a mess of the kitchen sink though. I clean all records with the gem dandy prior to storage. Then when I take them out I clean them off with a carbon fiber record brush and blow any remaining dust off with compressed air. Works great for me. There are as many methods and opinions on cleaning as on stylus selection. As with most other things I try to ignore both extremes and firmly occupy the middle ground. Enjoy.

[Grainger49]

Chris,

I warned you about damaging LPs with an old stylus now I need to warn you about stylus wear.  The cleaner the LP the longer your stylus lasts.  To that end look at the link below.  I have used this method on LPs that I couldn't find in "Mint" condition.  I have never damaged an LP and every LP cleaned with Titebond II has had a lot of noise and many, many of the ticks and pops removed.  It does nothing for scratches.  I have never had all the pops and clicks removed, it is probable the vinyl was damaged and that can't be "removed." 

Think of it as a vinyl facial mask, or Biore' strip for your vinyl.

But if you play dirty LPs with a nice new stylus you will be wearing the stylus prematurely. 

AudioKarma Wood Glue As A Vinyl Cleaner

[Maxwell_E]

I may sound like a broke newbie, but are there affordable services that could clean my whole lot of records, or would the price be more than the cost of a decent record cleaning system. I looked at the GEM Daddy, and at under $200 that seems to be the best deal going for something with so many positive reviews. But time is an issue too, I have never truly cleaned any of my records except with an old Discwasher I found in the attic, and I really don't feel like going through almost 200 LPs in the kitchen sink.

[Grainger49]

In order: No, Maybe.  

I know of no service for getting your LPs clean.  I have only recently heard of GEM Dandy (the Google search comes up with GEM Dandy Hydraulic Record Cleaning Apparatus).  I have a VPI 16.5 which goes used now regularly for $350 if you look for a little bit (do not buy the 16, which is older and cheaper and more awkward to use).  I will have to take a look at the GEM and get back to you.

I take it using Titebond II doesn't appeal to you.