CCS Loaded Parafeed Output - Design Considerations?

L0rdGwyn · 16116

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Offline 2wo

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Reply #15 on: March 16, 2020, 05:33:03 PM
I am enjoying this thread as well. Plant some seeds for a future project...John

John Scanlon


Offline Paul Birkeland

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Reply #16 on: March 17, 2020, 06:01:01 AM
Thanks for showing me, PB, I'll save for formula for next time.
Thanks for doing the leg work! 


Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Offline L0rdGwyn

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Reply #17 on: April 17, 2020, 11:22:56 AM
Hey Paul/PB - hope I can bug you guys again.  My 45 parafeed headphone amp is pretty close to being build, just waiting on some transformers to arrive.  I have a bunch of Solen films to figure out the value of the parafeed cap.

When it comes to deciding the parafeed cap value with a CCS load, what other measurements are useful other than a Bode plot / frequency response?  I'll be doing subjective listening tests as well.

Once the cap value is determined, I'll probably upgrade to something fancy, I've carved out a sizable chunk of space in the chassis for some huge capacitors.  Surprisingly, the Solens are quite small.

Thanks!

Keenan McKnight


Offline Paul Birkeland

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Reply #18 on: April 17, 2020, 11:42:09 AM
I would sweep the amp with a variety of headphone impedances (try to get a 16 or 32 ohm headphone and a 300 or 600 ohm headphone) and look at what the amp spits out.  There's probably some middle ground value that will make the most sense.

Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Offline L0rdGwyn

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Reply #19 on: April 17, 2020, 12:06:39 PM
Awesome, thanks,  I'll let you know how it goes!

Keenan McKnight


Offline Paul Birkeland

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Reply #20 on: April 17, 2020, 12:09:44 PM
Yeah, do post your results, it's a useful reference.

Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Offline L0rdGwyn

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Reply #21 on: April 17, 2020, 03:37:52 PM
Will do, I will screenshot the plots with supporting information and post them here.

Keenan McKnight


Offline L0rdGwyn

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Reply #22 on: May 02, 2020, 04:13:09 AM
Okay PB, I have been quite the busy bee...here is where we are at with the parafeed caps in this amp, which is otherwise complete :)

I took FR sweeps of five different capacitances: 3.3uF, 4.7uF, 6.8uF, 8.2uF, and 10uF.  Not sure how to insert attachments on the BH forum, but I have included them in a GIF format attached below, easier to see the relative change of low end response this way, but let me know if you would like the individual plots.

As you can see the effect on low end response from 20-30Hz is pretty subtle, we are talking about a difference of ~0.3dB when tripling the capacitance from 3.3uF to 10uF.

*I am copy/pasting/reformatting from another forum, subjective impressions were done in two different sittings.

Part 1:


Okay, so we've established there is a very small difference in frequency response from 20-30Hz. But how does the sound change subjectively?  I first decided to compare at the extremes, 3.3uF and 10uF. The results were somewhat unexpected...

I much preferred the sound of the 3.3uF. Even if the low-frequency extension is marginally improved with the 10uF caps in, there is a very noticeable loss of soundstage, airiness, and detail. The treble sounds a bit more harsh to my ears as well with 10uF. The 3.3uF sound is much more spacious and cohesive. Up to this point I had mostly been listening with the higher capacitance caps (6.8uF and 10uF), but the sound is much improved with 3.3uF. In fact, the bass sounds better! Better definition even if the extension is objectively slightly worse.

So there are clearly two competing factors in play here that will need to be balanced when assessing the other three caps. I can say without a doubt I will not be using the 10uF, bigger does not necessarily appear to be better.

This is an interesting finding since using a lower value cap opens up many more possibilities in terms of the quality of caps that can be used. I had somewhat assumed I would need a value higher than 5.6uF, so my top choice was the Rike Audio S-Cap 2 (aluminum foil paper in oil) as these caps are the appropriate size, value, and are well-reviewed for their "neutral" sound. They are also quite affordable.

So, there is more listening to be done.

Part 2 (after the suggestion was made that differences heard between 3.3uF and 10uF may not have been all due to the capacitance - try the caps in parallel for lower ESR/ESL):

Worked on getting the parafeed capacitance nailed down this morning. I started by comparing the 4.7uF and 3.3uF in parallel vs. the single 8.2uF cap. I can say without a doubt the two parallel caps sounded better. Better sounstage, air, and detail. Similar to what I said about the 3.3uF vs. 10uF, the singular higher capacitance cap causing something of a collapse of soundstage and more harsh treble.

Next, I compared the 4.7uF cap to the 4.7uF and 3.3uF in parallel to compare a singular lower capacitance cap with the higher capacitance combination. Again, I felt the two parallel caps gave better detail, soundstage separation, and this is the first time I felt the bass was significantly improved between two sets of caps. Fuller, tighter, more body.

Next, I compared two sets of parallel caps with different capacitances. With what I had on hand, I went for the two lowest capacitance combos for the sake of practicality, 4.7uF + 3.3uF and 6.8uF + 3.3uF. This is where differences started to get more difficult to detect...however, I did feel vocals started to get smeared a bit with the higher capacitance and focusing on other aspects of my test tracks revealed a loss of microdetail.

So, with the parallel combination of around 8uF, I was getting the best sound. But what about the relative values of the two capacitors? I then compared the 4.7uF + 3.3uF combination with an 8.2uF + 0.22uF combination. Not an exact capacitive match, but close enough with the 5% tolerances. I felt the two caps of similar size gave better nuance and vocal detail.

If two paralleled caps is good, is three better? I put the 0.22uF cap in parallel with the 4.7uF and 3.3uF for a total of 8.22uF. Adding this 0.22uF cap undeniably reduced the fullness and quality of the bass.

So my winning combination was the 4.7uF cap and 3.3uF cap in parallel. From the measurements, I know that diminishing returns in the bass response start at around 6.8uF, so I will be looking to find a parallel set of caps with similar values that add to ~6.8uF, perhaps 3.3uF + 3.3uF or 3.9uF + 3.9uF. Obviously this will make the size restriction more stringent, but I think the performance is worth it. It's pretty incredible the gains that can be made in this topology by tuning the parafeed caps.

I did briefly drop the 0.22uF cap in parallel with my 0.47uF coupling cap to see if similar gains could be had there. A few back-to-back comparisons was not enough to say definitively, and I was pretty fatigued at that point, so I'll revisit it.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2020, 04:29:43 AM by L0rdGwyn »

Keenan McKnight


Offline Thermioniclife

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Reply #23 on: May 02, 2020, 04:40:26 AM
Beautiful response!

Lee R.


Offline Paul Birkeland

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Reply #24 on: May 02, 2020, 04:45:34 AM
Cool!

Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Offline Doc B.

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Reply #25 on: May 02, 2020, 06:14:16 AM
Were the caps all the same brand and type?

Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President For Life
Bottlehead Corp.


Offline L0rdGwyn

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Reply #26 on: May 02, 2020, 06:17:12 AM
Yessir, all Solen 630V metallized polypropylene, purchased a set for the purpose of this experiment before committing to more expensive caps.

Keenan McKnight


Offline L0rdGwyn

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Reply #27 on: May 02, 2020, 06:29:30 AM
Also probably worth mentioning - on this amplifier, I ultimately abandoned the EL83 pentode CCS on the 45 in favor of a second cascode MOSFET CCS with ground-isolated heat sinks on the exterior of the chassis.

After crunching the numbers, I was only going to get something like 30dB PSRR from the EL83, so the performance hit was just too much.

So sorry PB!  Didn't mean to waste your time, but thank you for helping me understand the particulars of a pentode CCS.

Keenan McKnight


Deke609

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Reply #28 on: May 02, 2020, 06:57:26 AM
This is fascinating stuff. Thanks for sharing your measurements and impressions of different cap values and combinations.

Does anyone know or have theory-/experience-based speculations about whether larger cap values take longer to break in than smaller ones? Just curious about whether some part of Keenan's initial preference for a small cap over a big one, and subsequent liking of two smaller caps in parallel might be explained by this. 

Keenan: were all the caps new, or had they had equal hours of use, before you tested them?

cheers and many thanks, Derek



Offline Paul Birkeland

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Reply #29 on: May 02, 2020, 07:01:06 AM
30dB of PSRR isn't so bad if your power supply ripple is already low. 

Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man