Can I use this powered subwoofer with Sex 3.0? No high level speaker outputs

[Big Bamboo]

Hi,

I finished my Sex 3.0 and hooked it up to some Energy Take 5 speakers which I happened to have. These are small 2-way bass reflex speakers with 88db efficacy rating. I am using them in near field as computer speakers. They are plenty loud and sound pretty good.

I have an Energy ES-8 powered sub and thought about hooking that up to provide better bass.

But, when I went to hook it up, I realized the sub has high level speaker inputs but no high-level speaker outputs.

I saw an article which showed how to get around this if the amp has a second "B" speaker terminal, which of course the Sex 3.0 doesn't have.

So, is there a way to utilize this sub or do I need to go searching for one that has both high level inputs and outputs?

Thanks,
John

[Paul Birkeland]

Just run a second set of speakers cables to the sub.

[Big Bamboo]

Thank you.

So in other words I’d be running two speakers (sub and mains) in parallel off each channel by attaching two wires at each of the four speaker terminals.

I wasn’t sure if that might deleteriously change the impedance load on the Sex amp.

I’m currently using banana plugs which I like because they look tidy, and are easy to plug in and out. If I want to hook up two sets of wires I guess I’d have to use the bare wire terminals, instead of the banana plugs.

 I was trying to think about ways I could still use the banana plugs and split it in to two wires  "downstream". I was curious whether they made splitters for this, which might be more elequent and easier than making my own.

I really appreciate your time.

John

[Paul Birkeland]

Yes, you just have to run two pieces of cable.  The load on the speaker jacks of the subwoofer plate amp is probably something around 10,000 ohms, and that in parallel with a speaker will still look like an 8 ohm load to the SEX amp.

Putting bare wire into the binding posts is the way to go to get this done. 

[ccmccull]

I also connect bare wire and a banana plug to the same binding post in several places in my speaker chain. Just tighten the nut down on the bare wire like usual then push the banana plug into the center of the nut. Works like a charm. Let me know if you want a picture.

[Big Bamboo]

Thank you to those who responded.

I got the powered subwoofer hooked up to the Energy Take 5 satellites, no problem. But I was still a bit disappointed with the overall sound compared to listening with my HD600s. The mids and highs in piano music, for example, just aren't as clear, sparkling and realistic.

So, I had another small set of speakers around, Canton plus S which are 2 way 4 ohm speakers with an efficiency rating of 88db. They are sealed speakers purchased ($$$) in the 80s and were considered very good in their day.

The Canton speakers sound much better to my ears, but I stole them from use in the basement where they reside with their matched passive subwoofer. So I don't want to use them permanently with the Sex.

So, I am still in search of a better speaker solution. I am considering Blumenteins since they seem to have a good rep around here.

Question:
Is there an inherent advantage to single full range speaker driver designs, rather than the more common 2 way systems for my application? I have read much about the pros and cons of single drivers, but those discussions are general and not specific to my amp and to use in near field. My son in law built single full range speakers, the "ufonken plus" and he was happy with it.

I should mention, I've not yet done the C4S.


Any advice is appreciated.

John

[Paul Birkeland]

If you like the sound of the Canton speakers, why not just get another pair of those?

[Big Bamboo]

Thx Paul,

I just looked on eBay and there are some being sold there around $150-245/pair, so that’s an option.

But, I don’t mind spending more $$ if there are choices that would likely work better in my situation.

I will do the C4S upgrade before making any decisions.


John

[pboser]

Big Bamboo,
Getting back to your initial question, it is noteworthy that the fact that the sub doesn't have a high-pass filter (crossover) for satellite speakers means that they continue to run full-range - that is, the full signal, including the bass, also goes to them.  That might be fine - if you want to filter out the bass to the satellites, I'm sure you can get some advice on that. I'm pretty sure it's been discussed on these forums (fora?) in the past.
HTH,
Pete

[Big Bamboo]

Pete,

Your statement is contrary to my understanding of how the sub worked. (that doesn't mean I'm right)

The manual does state that if one uses the low-level RCA inputs (which I'm not), bass volume control and crossover network are bypassed. It says no such thing regarding the high level speaker inputs which I'm using. When using the high level inputs, the volume control definitely works and it seems adjusting the frequency filter makes a difference as well.


 I have attached the page from the manual which is sparse on details.

John

[Paul Joppa]

" ... which is sparse on details"

Indeed it is!

No distinction is made in the manual between the low-pass and high-pass outputs of a crossover, which leads to confusion.

If I read it right, the RCA inputs have no low-pass filter, presumably on the assumption that you are using an external crossover such as a home theater preamp might have.

The speaker level inputs do have a low-pass filter, of course. Many subs also have a simple high pass filter (often I believe just a capacitor) with speaker-level outputs separate from the (full-range) inputs. The ES-8 does not have separate speaker-level outputs, so it cannot have an internal speaker-level high-pass filter.

I believe Pete is correct - using the ES-8 does not relieve the satellites from handling the deep bass signals. To do so, you'd need a passive, speaker-level high-pass filter, the design of which would be specific to the speaker being used. A simple capacitor would not IMHO be satisfactory, because of the substantial impedance fluctuations of most speakers.

[Karl5150]

What Paul said.
I run the microfonken-plus full range off a SEX amp, with subs for the bottom end as my desk system. (Did I miss the space you are using the system in?) As far as I'm concerned I'm done - no reason for upgrades or any more tweaking. I'm betting the Orcas would deliver similar results.
The Home Despot's had/have some banana plugs with a hole that a second plug fits into - see photo.
Karl   

[Big Bamboo]

Peter,

My apologies. 

After re reading your post and thinking about it, I don't think you were saying anything contrary.

For clarification, here is how I think my setup works:

Since both speakers and sub are running in parallel from the same output, of course both sub and mains are receiving the whole signal (all frequencies). I believe this was the point you were making.

The subs adjustable filter does still function to set the high limit of what frequencies the sub produces. One then adjusts the cutoff point of the subs filter so that it blends with the natural low frequencies cut off point that the mains can produce. (In my case 90Hz)

I have seen plate amps with high level outputs, and I am guessing on those, it filters out the low frequencies to the mains (which the sub is reproducing).

So, if your point was that the mains still get all frequencies, I'd agree.

But, does it really matter if the mains do or don't get the signal for those very low frequencies that it inherently can't produce anyway?

Edit

Paul, What is the advantage of "relieving the satellites from handling the deep bass signals?"

John

[pboser]

Hi John,

No need to apologize. As PJ suggested, the information about the crossover is confusing.

I agree with what you're saying about adjusting the low pass filter on the sub. 

As to whether it matters that the main speakers are getting low frequencies they can't reproduce, the usual info opined is that the low frequencies could have a deleterious effect on the bass you do want them to reproduce, though I think that is usually considered more of an issue at higher volumes.  And of course, if you weren't using a sub at all, those frequencies would still be going to the main speakers. In my office setup, for example, I have the same situation and don't discern a problem, but it's (almost) never played loud.

Despite PJ's humble protestations, he knows more than most anyone, and it would be worthwhile having him weigh in on this question too, rather than listen to what I've heard others say.

Good luck and enjoy,
Pete

[Paul Birkeland]

But, does it really matter if the mains do or don't get the signal for those very low frequencies that it inherently can't produce anyway?

Edit

Paul, What is the advantage of "relieving the satellites from handling the deep bass signals?"

If you have a small speaker trying to play low bass loudly, you'll get high distortion, mechanical noise from the driver moving too much, and even possibly port noise.  Though it is not at all to be considered a fully developed solution, often plugging the ports on the small speakers can be extremely helpful in a setup like this.