Help deciding between Moreplay and BeePre2

[ambd1]

Hi all,

I am newbie in this forum, I am from VA. I would like to ask your help deciding between these two very well regarded tube preamplifiers, Moreplay and BeePre2.

My current system is a digital streamer going into a Mini DSP Flex, and the Mini DSP sending a full signal to a Rythmik subwoofer and sending a high pass signal with PEQ to a Apollon NCx500 amplifier, and then to a pair of NHT C3 speakers (6 ohm, 84 db). I also have a technics turntable with a phono preamplifier going into the Mini DSP via RCA.

My speaker cable is Duelund DCA16Ga
My ICS are all Belden 8492 (Yazaki style)

My plan is to place either the Moreplay or the BeePre2 between the Mini DSP and the Apollon amplifier, in that case the signal going to the subwoofer will not be affected by the tube preamplifier. Or, not ideal, I could place the tube preamplifier right before the Mini DSP (working as a proper preamplifier) and sending one pair of RCAs to the Mini DSP and then into the Apollon amplifier.

The input impedance of the Apollon amplifier is 50K
The input impedance of the Mini DSP Flex via RCA is 100K
The Apollon has 4 gain settings, I use it in third setting, but with the gain of the tube preamplifier I could use the second gain setting.

What I am looking for is to add a good amount of tube sound to this system. The Apollon Class D amplifier presents a wide solid soundstage, but vocals and strings do not have the best tone, neither 3d presence, and the sound all in all, is somehow cold and sometimes harsh in the midrange.

So, I would like what preamplifier, between the Moreplay or the BeePre2, would provide more of that tube sound and presence?

I can surely put together any of those two kits, with patience and time. I can solder, I do my own cables and I have done other type of more simple kits before.

As context, my experience with tube amplifiers is not small. I used to have a Conrad Johnson MV50, a 300B SET custom made amp, a 45 SET custom made amp, and a custom made DHT preamplifier around 6v6 (which unfortunately had some microphonic issues).

I just would like to bring some of that 3d imaging and amazing tube midrange to my current setup.

Thanks a lot for your time!!

Alan Brain

[Paul Birkeland]

Ideally you would present either of these preamps with your full source signal for optimal SNR.  I'm guessing you plan to continue using the Mini DSP for level control?

If you put the preamp where you are wanting to, you'll lose the source selection ability, so that could be a major downside. 

I think I'd lean toward the Moreplay for what you're talking about, as it's going to give a stronger tube flavoring and be easier to move around in your system.  You also don't have to feed anything that's a particularly demanding load, so the advantages of the BeePre upgrades there aren't as meaningful.

[ambd1]

Ideally you would present either of these preamps with your full source signal for optimal SNR.  I'm guessing you plan to continue using the Mini DSP for level control?

If you put the preamp where you are wanting to, you'll lose the source selection ability, so that could be a major downside. 

I think I'd lean toward the Moreplay for what you're talking about, as it's going to give a stronger tube flavoring and be easier to move around in your system.  You also don't have to feed anything that's a particularly demanding load, so the advantages of the BeePre upgrades there aren't as meaningful.

Thanks. I think you are right in that I do not need to feed anything with a demanding load. Also, in terms of gain, the Mini DSP Flex (working as preamp and crossover now) puts out 2 volts. And with that, and the third gain setting in the Apollon amplifier I am more than fine. So, taking this into account, your rationale about the Moreplay being a better fit for my needs makes sense.

I use the Mini DSP for several functions. I use it as crossover to send a high pass signal to amplifier for mains and full signal to the active subwoofer. I also use it to do some parametric EQ to the signal going to the mains, and also as a DAC. Since the Mini DSP has also a remote that control the 2V output, I use it as a preamplifier.

If I put the tube preamplifier before the Mini DSP which, as you suggest, I would need to connect a DAC to the tube preamplifier and remove the Mini DSP from DAC functions. If I put the tube preamplifier after the Mini DSP, since the Mini DSP is sending a high pass signal to amplifier for mains and a full signal to subwoofer, then the signal for the subwoofer will not be affected by the tube preamplifier.

I could try both positions and see how it sounds better. But I surely would prefer to have less components in the system.

[hmbscott]

My current system is similar to yours in a couple of respects, and maybe my experience will be of some value. My digital steamer is feeding a DAC and my turntable feeds a phono-pre. The DAC and phono-pre both feed my Moreplay. The Moreplay outs feeds a 6-channel EQ. Everything up to this point is single-ended. The EQ's balanced outs feed a Hypex Nilai 500 Stereo Amp, which only has balanced input. The Nilai speaker outs feed my subwoofers speaker level inputs, and its speaker outs feed my speakers.

Regarding the pairing of the Moreplay with Class D, well it's superb. I also have a pair of ACA Class A monoblocks, 15W/channel. I prefer the Nilia to the ACA's.

[ambd1]

My current system is similar to yours in a couple of respects, and maybe my experience will be of some value. My digital steamer is feeding a DAC and my turntable feeds a phono-pre. The DAC and phono-pre both feed my Moreplay. The Moreplay outs feeds a 6-channel EQ. Everything up to this point is single-ended. The EQ's balanced outs feed a Hypex Nilai 500 Stereo Amp, which only has balanced input. The Nilai speaker outs feed my subwoofers speaker level inputs, and its speaker outs feed my speakers.

Regarding the pairing of the Moreplay with Class D, well it's superb. I also have a pair of ACA Class A monoblocks, 15W/channel. I prefer the Nilia to the ACA's.

Thanks for sharing your experience! I appreciate it and it is very helpful.

We, indeed, have a similar system in some elements in the chain. As I mentioned in my last post, I can try both ways and see what sounds better: either place the Moreplay (as you have it) before the EQ (in my case that would be before the Mini DSP Flex), or place it right after the Mini DSP. Each option has its own pros and cons that I would need to explore once the Moreplay is ready.

So, it seems, according to your experience, that the Moreplay is the way to go. In your case, was the Nilai a bit harsh without the Moreplay in the chain? How much did the sound change with the Moreplay in chain? and how did it change?

Thanks,

Alan

[hmbscott]

Well, the Nilia is the latest addition so it's only seen duty with the Moreplay Preamp. While the Nilia has yet to be widely reviewed, it's gaining a reputation for being relatively laid back and smooth, for a Class D. I was interested in trying Class D with my Moreplay based on this thread, which might be of interest to you: https://forum.bottlehead.com/index.php?topic=15040.msg136232#msg136232 . I started looking for a good but not crazy expensive (<$1500) class D amp and ran across Alpha Audio's shoot out video that included the Nilia: https://www.youtube.com/live/NdZFAWe1Nxo?si=M8GmQq_vLfJuMTLX . Based on that video, listening to it using headphones, I felt the Nilia had the better sound, fairly close to Alpha Audio's reference amp, the Pass Labs X150.8. Listening to it might give you a sense of the Nilia's character compared to the much more expensive Pass Labs class A/B, and to class D Purifi and ICEpower.

I do have a solid state Schiit Saga preamp that was replaced by the Moreplay. I have been meaning to put it back in for comparison with my Moreplay. I will set that up in the next day or two and report back.

As a side note, I happen to have two Moreplays that I built at the same time, as an experiment to try to determine whether or not the upgrades are audible. One is stock and the other is heavily upgraded (pics attached). I have compared them and I have to admit that the stock unit is difficult to distinguish from the upgrade.

[ambd1]

Well, the Nilia is the latest addition so it's only seen duty with the Moreplay Preamp. While the Nilia has yet to be widely reviewed, it's gaining a reputation for being relatively laid back and smooth, for a Class D. I was interested in trying Class D with my Moreplay based on this thread, which might be of interest to you: https://forum.bottlehead.com/index.php?topic=15040.msg136232#msg136232 . I started looking for a good but not crazy expensive (<$1500) class D amp and ran across Alpha Audio's shoot out video that included the Nilia: https://www.youtube.com/live/NdZFAWe1Nxo?si=M8GmQq_vLfJuMTLX . Based on that video, listening to it using headphones, I felt the Nilia had the better sound, fairly close to Alpha Audio's reference amp, the Pass Labs X150.8. Listening to it might give you a sense of the Nilia's character compared to the much more expensive Pass Labs class A/B, and to class D Purifi and ICEpower.

I do have a solid state Schiit Saga preamp that was replaced by the Moreplay. I have been meaning to put it back in for comparison with my Moreplay. I will set that up in the next day or two and report back.

As a side note, I happen to have two Moreplays that I built at the same time, as an experiment to try to determine whether or not the upgrades are audible. One is stock and the other is heavily upgraded (pics attached). I have compared them and I have to admit that the stock unit is difficult to distinguish from the upgrade.

Very interesting, thanks for sharing. Where did you buy the Nilai? Did you bought it already assembled or in kit form? I am considering returning the Hypex (still have a couple of days) and ordering a Nilai, but not sure where.

[hmbscott]

I bought the Hypex Nilai 500 Stereo Amplifier DIY Kit from Deer Creek Audio. https://deercreekaudio.com/products/ols/products/hypex-nilai-500-stereo-amplifier

The kit takes maybe an hour to assemble. No soldering required.

[hmbscott]

I just remembered your first post mentioned the Apollon adjustable gain. The Nilia has three gain settings, 12, 22, and 28 dB. The Moreplay offers about 9 dB of gain if I recall correctly. I'm using the 12 dB setting on the Nilia and have built in a 3dB pad on my Moreplay to reduce its gain a bit too. My speakers are pretty high efficiency so I don't want a lot of gain.

[ambd1]

I just remembered your first post mentioned the Apollon adjustable gain. The Nilia has three gain settings, 12, 22, and 28 dB. The Moreplay offers about 9 dB of gain if I recall correctly. I'm using the 12 dB setting on the Nilia and have built in a 3dB pad on my Moreplay to reduce its gain a bit too. My speakers are pretty high efficiency so I don't want a lot of gain.

Thanks for sharing where you got the Nilai. I think that I will keep the NCx500 for now since it is pretty good at what it does. Also, in another forum, somebody who has more than 4 Class D amplifiers of this same caliber said that they all need tons of break in, at least 150 hours. And I sort of believe him. Although, I read somewhere that even Hypex said that their amplifier modules do not need break in. 

As I move along and improve the sound, I may get a kit for the Nilai from Deer Creek, but I will have to talk to them for a Dual Mono option since my current speakers are only 84db so I would need the extra power the Dual Mono has.

It is very good to know that the stock Moreplay sounds very similar to the upgraded Moreplay. Does the upgraded Moreplay has just better capacitors and resistors? or the upgraded version has a different schematic with a more complex wiring?

Thanks for sharing all this valuable information with me.

[joralieu]

Hmbscot, what are the knobs on your modded moreplay?

[Mucker]

hmbscott .... you need to enter those modded kits into some type of contest .... all are just awesome!

[Paul Birkeland]

If you want some help laying out boxes with L-brackets, that opens up a lot of possibilities.

[hmbscott]

Paul, I have been admiring your build portfolio. I've reviewed it several times after I discovered it. You sir are an artist! I may take you up on that someday. (edit: I'm a little red faced Paul, I just realized your comment probably wasn't aimed at me, nevertheless I may hit you up for advice some day).

joralieu, I bought four different types and decided I liked these the best: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08L4XYYFV/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Mucker, your kind words are much appreciated!

Thanks, Scott

[hmbscott]

In your case, was the Nilai a bit harsh without the Moreplay in the chain? How much did the sound change with the Moreplay in chain? and how did it change?

Alan,

This evening I hooked my Saga back up and did some listening comparing it and the Moreplay. Cable swapping isn't ideal, and results are interesting enough that I want set them up for up for a proper A/B test. My initial impression is that the differences are not enormous, but may be audible. With the Saga in the chain, the treble region is sharper/harder, but not exactly harsh. I noticed this with a couple of songs with high-pitched, high-volume content, Numb on Portshead's Dummy Album and Adele's Hello on her 25 album. Sound stage and imaging are similar. I was surprised that the Saga is as sweet sounding as it is, which is why I want to do proper A/B testing.