Tube Rolling w/Crack

Dr. Toobz · 1224083

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Offline Paul Joppa

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Reply #210 on: January 28, 2012, 07:18:20 PM
Because of the cathode follower output, Crack is relatively tolerant of "similar" tubes - I really should have said something about that, I was just focused on the broader claim that you can use one tube in place of another when they are that different. A lot of tube sellers do this and it really bugs me. But I apologize for getting off the Crack topic.

When you change the tube parameters, the operating points (voltages and currents) will normally change.  The Speedball will eliminate the current differences, but the voltage differences may be larger. If you would post the voltages on the tubes, I can make some comments on why it might sound different - from a technical perspective of course. But there is more than simple technology at work in the way a tube sounds. If you hear a difference, there almost certainly is a difference!

What are you using for the output tube?

Paul Joppa


Offline jrihs

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Reply #211 on: January 28, 2012, 09:07:38 PM
Thanks Paul, I can see now why u might be peeved at that. I've seen other outlandish claims on e-bay as well. Down right entertaining - u guys just starting out should be very wary of the tube museum guy, why he's still up I just don't understand. Hope I won't get in trouble for that comment. Just check it out, the audiogon forum has allot on him, and his listing that I last saw (was it last week?) is another head scratcher.

Anyways,

I usually run a power/output tube-WE 421a...but when the E80CC was in I was running a svetlana 6H13 (I think they are similar, except that you can get 15 svetlana's for the price of 421a). I'm keeping that in while I do some heavy input tube rotations/comparisons for consistency. I'm about through this round and will put the WE-421a back in and start over again! Good thing there are only 2 tubes on this puppy.

PS: Now I'm having trouble swapping-out the bugle boy 7316....another winner  <:-)
« Last Edit: January 28, 2012, 10:13:43 PM by jrihs »

John Rihs


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Reply #212 on: January 31, 2012, 11:13:41 AM
Hi All,

Still loving my Speedballed Crack with my Beyer DT 880 600 ohm Manufaktur HPs (Meier Audio Corda StageDAC from PC).

Have been using an old CBA 7236 with a CBS 12BH7A. Decided to try some of my other tubes for a change.
Listening to a Mullard CV 4003 with a Russian Winged C (OTK) 6H13C. Very nice combination.

Does anyone know anything about "running in" tubes ? Is it fact or fallacy ?

All the best,

John T (from Downunder).



Offline Paul Joppa

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Reply #213 on: January 31, 2012, 03:58:13 PM
The known technical aspects of "running in" (we call it burning in - but then, we cal it "English" too!) have to do with the cathode.

The cathode is fairly complex and dynamic at a molecular level, and was only beginning to be understood when transistors supplanted tubes and research lost interest. Two things are known though:

1) the cathode must be formed. This is done in the factory, and consists of running some current through it; sometimes at slightly elevated temperature. It normally takes some 50-100 hours. Supposedly it brings or exposes individual barium and strontium atoms at the surface. Also, some trace elements of the substrate alloy diffuse into the coating. (In fact, a bit of silicon in the nickel substrate is known to speed the forming but shorten the working lfe of the cathode.)

2) many kinds of cathode will form a resistive layer between the substrate and the coating if they are operated for a long time with no current. This layer limits the emission, and adds noise. It is plausible that it can be reversed by running some current.

I am not aware of any studies of long-term storage, but since cathodes are known to be chemically active through their life it seems reasonable that the would require re-forming if they have sat idle for decades.

For what it's worth, I measured some of the earliest modern 300Bs (I think they were Sovteks, the first production run) a long time ago and found that their cathodes were not initially capable of providing their proper current. After 24 hours they were significantly improved, and after several days they met their specs easily, and I ran one pair of them for several years with no problem.

Also for what it's worth, remember that the getter, which traps ions to maintain the vacuum, only works when it's hot. A tube that has been idle for an extended period may have become slightly gassy, and operating at temperature would allow the getter to resolve the problem.

Paul Joppa


Offline jrihs

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Reply #214 on: February 01, 2012, 03:12:20 AM
VERY informative Paul!!

John Rihs


Raksasa

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Reply #215 on: February 01, 2012, 03:32:38 PM
Thanks very much Paul. Good to see some technical explaination.

I had heard references to old tubes getting "gassy" previously.

Cheers,

John T.



Offline crackuser

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Reply #216 on: February 03, 2012, 02:32:01 PM
Hi all, I just changed from a 5998 to a GEC 6AS7 brown base. The GEC sounds good, but I am satisfied with using either one of the tubes. They both sound great in there own way. Suggest either one.



Offline crackuser

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Reply #217 on: February 03, 2012, 03:03:13 PM
The GEC is warming up now and sounding better all the time. It was NOS so it may take some time, the first post about it was only about 10 minutes in the amp. I have to do some direct comparisons, but the GEC 6AS7 Brown Base sounds like the one I keep in it. Nice sounding tube if you can find one. Took me months.



Offline jrihs

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Reply #218 on: February 04, 2012, 08:16:06 PM
There are about 16 listed on ebay. Most (Pan Getters) well over $200! I'd be interested in hearing your impressions. Have you a 421a to compare with? is yours a pan or halo getter?
Thanks
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 08:52:23 PM by jrihs »

John Rihs


Offline ELBEBE1000

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Reply #219 on: February 05, 2012, 12:40:16 PM
Hi,

I quick question. What would be better on crack with speedball telefunken ECC82 or Mullard 12AU7?
Thank you.



Offline jrihs

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Reply #220 on: February 06, 2012, 03:01:15 PM
That's a big question! Which mullard 12au7? The CV4003 is the most linear of the mullards with amazing staging and depth, though to my ears the lower midrange seems a tad muted sometimes. They are also resonably priced if you shop around (30-50 bucks). A mullard long-plate, D getter is fantastic in other ways...and my Mullard long-plate, double post halo getter is one of my favs.

The telefunken smooth plate is also a favorite. can seem somewhat "thin" compared to the mullard but has amazing hi-end sparkle, clarity air and detail, and great soundstage too. You really need to get both!!!! but if push came to shove...wow...I have 4 of each (cv4003 and smooth plate Teles)...do the Telefunkens first, then get a CV4003!?

PS...There are others out there (of coarse), like 50's bugle boys, siemens chrome plates, and amperex 7136's that you may like even more!!!
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 04:48:42 PM by jrihs »

John Rihs


Offline BNAL

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Reply #221 on: February 06, 2012, 04:55:19 PM
I have been using the Mullard CV4003 and Mazda/Cifte 12AU7. I like the Mullard a lot nice full 3 dimensional sound, but I have been spending more time with the Mazda. I find the sound more linear and natural to my ears, but I could live with either. I think they are both great tubes.

Now I want to see about a different power triode.

Brad Nalitt
Iron Upgraded S.E.X. Amp 2.0
Foreplay III
Quickie w/PJCCS
Eros Phono
Blumenstein Orca Speakers, Baby Benthic Subs
S.E.X.y Speakers W/FT17H Horn Tweeters
Thorens TD 125 MkII W/ Shure M97xE JICO SAS Stylus


Offline jrihs

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Reply #222 on: February 06, 2012, 06:32:36 PM
I have been using the Mullard CV4003 and Mazda/Cifte 12AU7. I like the Mullard a lot nice full 3 dimensional sound, but I have been spending more time with the Mazda. I find the sound more linear and natural to my ears, but I could live with either. I think they are both great tubes.

Now I want to see about a different power triode.

I have a Cifte 12AU7 comming. Can't wait. What power triode are u using?

John Rihs


Offline BNAL

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Reply #223 on: February 06, 2012, 06:41:49 PM
I'm still using the GE 6080 that came with the kit. Not sure what to try next. I have been looking at the RCA 6as7g black plate, but really want to get the 5998. I'm keeping my eyes open for a good deal on either.

Brad Nalitt
Iron Upgraded S.E.X. Amp 2.0
Foreplay III
Quickie w/PJCCS
Eros Phono
Blumenstein Orca Speakers, Baby Benthic Subs
S.E.X.y Speakers W/FT17H Horn Tweeters
Thorens TD 125 MkII W/ Shure M97xE JICO SAS Stylus


Offline Laudanum

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Reply #224 on: February 07, 2012, 02:10:17 AM
Unless things have changed drastically in the last 8 or 9 months, the RCA 6AS7's should be pretty plentiful and inexpensive.  I picked up a couple NOS back then and I dont think they were more than $15, if that.  I also picked up a 2 or 3 more used under 10 bucks (GE Jan and RCA).  One used RCA was a bit weak but aside from that ...  they seemed pretty plentiful and were inexpensive.  All were from ebay where I dont mind buying and taking the chance if they dont cost much.   

Desmond G.