Bottlehead Forum
Bottlehead Kits => Crack => Topic started by: Dr. Toobz on April 29, 2010, 12:55:04 PM
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At the suggestion of Grainger49, let's compile a list of tubes that can be rolled in the Crack. I'll update this list periodically as more tubes are tested, and have separated the list into drop-in replacements vs. tubes that might need the heaters rewired or some other modification. Please PM me with any additions or corrections! Maybe we can eventually make this thread a sticky? (Last updated: 05/22/2010).
DROP-IN EQUIVALENTS
Input Tubes (Original: 12AU7)
12AU7(A)(WA)
ECC186
ECC82
ECC802(S)
E8025
E82CC
CV4003
CV4122
CV491
5814(A)
6189(W)(WA)
6680 (WL6680)
6067
7489
7316
5963 (computer version of 12AU7)
Sort-of-Drop-In (but not equivalent - for best results, replace plate resistors with Speedball boards)
E80CC
12BH7
Power/Output (Original: 6080)
6AS7G
6080
6H13C
5998
7236
6N13
NOT THE 6SN7!!!!!
SUBSTITUTIONS (circuit changes required)
n/a
FWIW, tube rolling can indeed make a difference in your Crack. I've had the chance to try out another power tube - a Russian 6H13C (6AS7). The amp sounds a bit warmer now, with a bigger soundstage, plenty of bass, and maybe a hair less vivid treble. A good investment at about $20 - I bought mine online from the TubeStore. This definitely sounds a little sweeter and more "tubey" than the 6080 in there before. YMMV, of course.
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Well, I just couldn't resist any longer.
I replaced the Toshiba 5963 that was included in my kit with a mid 50's CBS Hytron 5814a BP, 2mica with the tilted square getter. I still have the supplied RCA 6080 installed but I replaced the stock signal wire with Cardas 24awg shielded between the RCA's and the pot and 21awg solid silver (from M Percy) for the rest.
It's just been a couple of hours but I'm lovin' it! Great imaging, deep soundstage, fantastic bass, very nice snap, and the highs aren't nearly as forward as with the Toshiba. Very musical!
I almost don't have the heart to try the rest of my stash,.. I said almost.
I'll live with this set up for a while though,.. of course there's that new TKD pot staring me in the face too.
I just have no self control anymore!
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Steve,
Is that CBS Hytron the red label version? If the braille on the tube box is correct, I think I just found one of those in my tube box. I thought I had got rid of all my 12au7 variants, but I'm stil finding one or two here and there, and so far they have all been pretty nice. I'll ask my wife to verify that it is indeed the 1955 red label. Glad to hear it sounds so good in the Crack.
-- Jim
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Yup, that's the one. IIRC, it wasn't too expensive either.
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I've so voided my warranty: All of the signal path wire is multiple-strand silver-plated Teflon mil-spec, the RCA jacks feed the pot via Canare shielded quad, the pot's from DIY-HiFi (their Alps clone), the headphone jack is a Neutrik locking jack, the caps are those huge Axon films, and I've rolled in a RCA 6AS7.
What an amazing amp! Dead quiet, the bass has incredible slam and definition. Brushes against a drumhead are stunning. It does a better job with my HD-650's than my K-702's but not by much. Right now I'm feeding it Apple Lossless via a RWA modified iPod. Blows away my DarkVoice 336 and my Woo Wa3. In fact I just gave the DV to my son-in-law.
Dead simple to build and incredible sound. Doc, you guys rock!
Well, I just couldn't resist any longer.
I replaced the Toshiba 5963 that was included in my kit with a mid 50's CBS Hytron 5814a BP, 2mica with the tilted square getter. I still have the supplied RCA 6080 installed but I replaced the stock signal wire with Cardas 24awg shielded between the RCA's and the pot and 21awg solid silver (from M Percy) for the rest.
It's just been a couple of hours but I'm lovin' it! Great imaging, deep soundstage, fantastic bass, very nice snap, and the highs are nearly as forward as with the Toshiba. Very musical!
I almost don't have the heart to try the rest of my stash,.. I said almost.
I'll live with this set up for a while though,.. of course there's that new TKD pot staring me in the face too.
I just have no self control anymore!
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.... It does a better job with my HD-650's than my K-702's but not by much.
Just how good is it with the AKGs? A couple of us have been wondering if the impedance is too low on those. How about bass?
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Roger,
How did you implement the Neutrik locking jack with the 2.49k resistors? I have a couple of those jacks and they don't apppear to have any switched terminals.
Thanks,
Jim
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Overall they're quite good. Bass doesn't measure up to what the higher impedance Senns provides but the soundstage and imaging are on a par. Bear in mind I don't have a lot of hours on the Crack and am still in the process of trying different phones--still need to plug in some Grados--expect some different impressions over time. However, I suspect that the Senns won't give up their lead.
.... It does a better job with my HD-650's than my K-702's but not by much.
Just how good is it with the AKGs? A couple of us have been wondering if the impedance is too low on those. How about bass?
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Ran them from tip and ring to sleeve. It's not pretty, the holes are too small for wire+resistors. I ended up soldering the wires in place, placing the resistors on top and soldering them in place. It works but I'll likely re-doing it for a cleaner and more mechanically sound installation.
Near as I can tell the switch function of the stock jack isn't being used.
Roger,
How did you implement the Neutrik locking jack with the 2.49k resistors? I have a couple of those jacks and they don't apppear to have any switched terminals.
Thanks,
Jim
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Roger,
Ok, I'll ring out the jack today as I thought those resistors were switched in when the headphone plug was removed, and for what I guessed to bleed down the coupling caps, but I guess they'd do the same thing and prevent power-up transient suppression if just soldered directly as you did.
-- Jim
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Ok figured out the TRS jack resistors. Found the step that says to solder a ground wire between both inboard and outboard sleeve terminals (and which also goes to the volume pot.) Easy enough.
-- Jim
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The jack should work just fine, Jim. You might try soldering the resistors to the jack and using the resistor leads to connect the various wires. Should be a much better installation--things get pretty crowded on the back of the jack.
Roger
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Could someone maybe list the different variants of the two tubes that can be used?
I'm familiar with some of the 12AU7 versions, but I guess I don't know all of them (5963? 5814a?) and I know nothing about the 6080/6AS7's.
Thanks!
And yes, I only just ordered my kit today and I'm already looking for tubes :)
All I have are 12AT7s in my speaker rig
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You can use the 6CG7 with the Crack also. Just separate the jumper between pins 4 and 5, then run a wire from pin 9 to whicheven pin (4 or 5) has no wire running to it. The E80CC is another decent choice.
As for the 6080/6AS7 variants, you really need to stay within the heater current limits, that's the key. Tubes like the 6336 will overtax the power transformer. I will test the 6BL7 sometime this week with my Speedball Crack and see how it lines up with the stock operating points.
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PJ did a list the other day regarding the 6080 type tubes in the thread "New Production 6AS7/6080 tubes".
There's a bunch of 12au7 subs that can be used in some gear. Here's a link to a tube sellers site with a good number of the more common subs. Like a lot of online tube shops, sometimes the info's good and sometime it's just self serving. Please don't take my link as being an endorsement of this seller.
But, if I'm heading into unknown territory tube wise, I always surf around to the seller sites that have some good info with their ads. You'll find a gazillion 12au7 threads on the Asylum too.
http://www.vacuumtubes.com/12au7.html
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Could someone maybe list the different variants of the two tubes that can be used?
I'm familiar with some of the 12AU7 versions, but I guess I don't know all of them (5963? 5814a?) and I know nothing about the 6080/6AS7's.
Thanks!
And yes, I only just ordered my kit today and I'm already looking for tubes :)
All I have are 12AT7s in my speaker rig
Wouldn't a straight swap tube substitute list make a good sticky in each product area?
A list below that could be those that require pin changes and or circuit changes. Certainly not instructions just a list.
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agreed!
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I would like to see a beginners guide to tube rolling. I dont have a background in electronics so most of this is foreign to me.
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Buy tube,remove old tube, plug new tube in, listen to tube. Rinse and repeat...
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Just like headphones, what's worth the money is in the eye of the beholder.
There's always plenty of folks who'll be happy to spend your money by stating that this tube or that tube is the only one to use in a particular amp and it's difficult when you're new at this to separate the wheat from the chaff.
My advice is to start by buying from a good dealer and avoid the auctions till you have a better idea what you're looking for. An established dealer has a stake in keeping his customers happy and well informed. They may be a little more money for a given tube, but they stand behind what they sell and do proper testing. Some even do some grading for low noise if you need some tubes for something like a phono preamp.
So, start small and don't be reluctant to buy used tubes from a trusted seller. When I start with a tube type that I'm unfamiliar with, I try not to spent top dollar on new old stock when there's a chance that that tube won't be the "holy grail" that other's seem to think it is (at least half the time, but that's just me). And if I do end up loving it, I can spend the money then. But there are lots of used, tested tubes that'll sound fantastic for years that you can get for a fraction of the cost of NOS.
Another thing to bear in mind is that current production tubes seem to be getting better and better. Some cost almost as much as fabled NOS tubes but don't overlook them just because they aren't as hip.
Finally, give tubes a chance to settle in. I know that it's hard to resist switching tubes after just a few hours, but I always give every tube at least 25 hours of burn in before I start to listen critically. Then I'll give it several days of regular listening with different sources and music genres. If I can't hear a difference without A/B'ing, the cheaper, easier to find tube wins.
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I would like to see a beginners guide to tube rolling. I dont have a background in electronics so most of this is foreign to me.
Paul Birkeland's explanation covers most of it. If you buy a tube with the exact same tube number you are fine.
This is a quote from the Product Page, "And of course you can tweak to your hearts content tube rolling different 12AU7 and 6080/6AS7 variants." What Doc means is that there are "equivalent" tubes out there. Some are a drop in replacement, like the CV4003 Mullard is exactly the same as a 12AU7 but sounds nicer. Others are very similar but won't work for some reason or another. In the case of the 6DJ8/6922/7308 that is used in the Seduction the Russian 6N1P is the same except it needs more current for the heater. Using it in the Seduction will either blow the fuse, we hope, or burn out the heater winding in the transformer, we hope not.
Look two posts above yours, I suggest that usable tubes like the CV4007 be listed as a "Sticky" for each product. That would take the guessing out of it. And maybe I will start a thread that others can correct and add to and Doc can make it a Sticky.
The OP, Dr Toobz could collect the equivalents for the crack and edit ("Modify") his first post for the Crack.
For the input tube, the 12AU7 I have a list of tubes that I believe are usable equivalents. I do not know that all use the same or lower heater current, a common problem is higher current. But this is a start for the 12AU7:
12AU7(A)(WA)
ECC186
ECC82
ECC802(S)
E8025
E82CC
CV4003
CV4122
CV491
5814(A)
6189(W)(WA)
6680 (WL6680)
6067
7489
7316
I will be happy to correct this list if anyone can help.
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Has anyone tried using a Western Electric 421A? I saw some for sale but they are quite pricey.
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How about the 5670/2c51? Will this tube work in the amp if the front socket is rewired? I don't have a pinout chart so I can't tell if it is the same as a 6cg7. I also don't have access to the curves so I can't tell if any changes to bias would be needed at the 75v operating voltage. I realize there will be 5 dB more gain, but is there anything else I should be considering?
Thanks,
Jim
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You could indeed use this tube, but it would be easier to do with the Speedball upgrade. If you're planning to go that route, I can post the R1 value for the driver C4S boards.
Honestly, I'd go for the 5687 instead.
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A good site to find information on tubes and their equivalets is: http://tdsl.duncanamps.com/tubesearch.php
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Thanks, Paul. If you can post the resistor value, that would be great as I may just give this a try at some point. I only thought of the 5670 because I have a few of the super nice, 1950s Ericsson/simens gold pins and no 5687s in house, and no money to buy more tubes right now. Any particular reason for one over the other? The interelectrode capacitance values of the 5670 seem decent to me.
Marroyo, I do use that site, but I'm blind so the graphs and graphical pinouts are of no use to me, but the TDSKL page often gives me links to other html pages where the electrical data is published in text. I still haven't found one that identifies pinouts though.
Thanks anyway,
Jim
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Hey Jim,
The pin assignments for the 5670 are;
1-heater
2-cathode (2)
3-grid (2)
4-plate (2)
5-shield
6-plate (1)
7-grid (1)
8-cathode (1)
9-heater
Heater-6.3V, 350mA
Class A
plate voltage 150V
cathode bias resistor 240 ohm
amplification factor 35
plate resistance 6400 ohm
transconductance 5500 micromho
plate current 8.2 milliamperes
grid current -8V (Ib=10 milliamperes)
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Ok, here's a theoretical question, just out of curiosity: is the lowly 6AS7 and its many variants we're playing around with like a sort of indirectly-heated twin 2A3? I remember somebody claiming someplace else that a 6AS7 is similar to two 6B4's, or at least close. 6B4's are the octal version of the 6A3, which is a 6-volt heater version of the 2A3. Correct? So, might a 6AS7, the lowly regulator tube now finding use in many headphone and P-P amps, actually be an indirectly-heated cousin of the 2A3? This tube certainly sounds a lot better than it has a right to....
(One problem I found, though, is that the 2A3's mu is higher than the 6AS7, which I think is around 2, correct? So,maybe distant cousins....).
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I've started to compile a list of tubes on the original post as a reference. Would you guys who actually know something about tubes double-check it for accuracy, and PM me with any additions/corrections? There's one input tube, for example, that I left off, the ECC80, as I don't know if it's a drop-in replacement or needs the heaters rewired (don't have specs handy ATM).
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Wow, the 5687 does indeed look like an interesting tube to try. Of course, the pinout is different, so that has to be addressed first. After that, I would change the R1 on the green PC boards to 52 ohms. This will set the forward current to around 15ma, and should keep the plate voltage around 75 volts. Of course, 150-75=75 volts across the CCS, then .017A*75v=1.275 watts, so use a small clip on heatsink for each transistor (it won't require anything significant).
The 5687 has similar gain to the AU7, and the extra plate current should really sweaten the sound! Based on the extra current drawn, I would go to a CLC power supply at the same time to ensure that the B+ rail stays up over 150v.
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Steve, thanks very much for that information -- that helps a lot, but also tells me that a dpdt won't exactly work to switch between 12au7 and 5670 configurations. Oh well, at least now I have the info for future reference.
-- Jim
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Hi Paul,
Now, that sounds tempting. I still plan to try the stock config first, but I'm thinking the additional current drive would be nice with the 650s for a bit more detail... perhaps.
Thanks again,
Jim
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Yeah, I think it really comes down to taste. Doc loves his 12AU7's, and I totally understand that when we cue up tape and listen. PJ is pretty into 6SN7's (as is Ed Fallon), and in PJ's case I think it's reflective of his preference for musicality. In my case, I might go for a 6414 or something like that, except that gain is an issue, so wiring for 5687's or ECC99's seems like a good choice.
Putting in a switch for the filaments seems easy enough and like a good plan. With the Speedball installed, you should be able to switch between 6CG7/6FQ7, 12AU7, and 12BH7 without tremendous voltage mismatch between the driver tube and the output tube.
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Yes, it really does all come down to personal taste, and that's why I at least originally wanted to have the ability to use the 6cg7 (and because I have a few very nice examples of those on hand), but also because I too really like the musicality of the 6sn7 even though I do find that the ability to render dynamic contrasts to be high on my preferences list and the 6sn7 is really not the ideal tube for this. On the other hand, (and I see you anticipated my next questions) is that with the direct coupling and no cap between driver and output, dynamic contrasts are much better than in cap coupled amps anyway.
So, all these unknowns and experiments to be done, but at least with my original plan to have a switchable filament arrangement, I can play with enough variations to keep me happy for a while and not worry about putting undue stress on the amp.
This is the kind of thing that makes BH kits so much fun!
-- Jim
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Hey Jim,
The pin assignments for the 5670 are;
1-heater
2-cathode (2)
3-grid (2)
4-plate (2)
5-shield
6-plate (1)
7-grid (1)
8-cathode (1)
9-heater
Heater-6.3V, 350mA
Class A
plate voltage 150V
cathode bias resistor 240 ohm
amplification factor 35
plate resistance 6400 ohm
transconductance 5500 micromho
plate current 8.2 milliamperes
grid current -8V (Ib=10 milliamperes)
If you are re-wiring the driver 9 pin socket for 5670, then it will also be compatible with 2C51 and the ever popular and lovely WE 396A.
If 12BH7s are to your liking, then the 6GU7 is the 6V filament near equivalent, just wire the filament power to pins 4 and 5 and leave 9 open. Same pinout as 6CG7 / 6FQ7.
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With the Speedball installed, you should be able to switch between 6CG7/6FQ7, 12AU7, and 12BH7 without tremendous voltage mismatch between the driver tube and the output tube.
12BH7's come highly recommended to me as suitable 12AU7 subs. With Speedball you're saying there'll be no concerns? Would a particular model of output tube be better suited for use w/ a 12BH7?
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With the Speedball a 5-10v difference in driver plate voltage won't really affect the output tube.
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Yeah, I think it really comes down to taste. Doc loves his 12AU7's, and I totally understand that when we cue up tape and listen. PJ is pretty into 6SN7's (as is Ed Fallon), and in PJ's case I think it's reflective of his preference for musicality. In my case, I might go for a 6414 or something like that, except that gain is an issue, so wiring for 5687's or ECC99's seems like a good choice.
Putting in a switch for the filaments seems easy enough and like a good plan. With the Speedball installed, you should be able to switch between 6CG7/6FQ7, 12AU7, and 12BH7 without tremendous voltage mismatch between the driver tube and the output tube.
Sorry if this has been asked before. Isn't the 12SN7 the same as a 6SN7 with different heater voltages (12V vs 6V)? Wouldn't this make a more suitable replacement for the 12AU7 since the filament voltage is the same? 12SN7's tend to be a lot cheaper too.
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The actual filament voltage in the Crack, as in the s.e.x. amp (same power transformer) is 6.3v and you can run some of the 12v tubes on this by running the heaters in a parallel, rather than serial configuration.
Hope this helps,
Jim
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12SN7 has a 12.6 volt (only) filament, it is not tapped like the 12AU7 or 12BH7 which allows those tubes to run on either 6.3 or 12.6V. Crack would need a 6SN7 (and an enlarged chassis hole to accomodate the octal socket. "Hole Shrinkers" in reverse, anybody ? ;^) Yah, they're called Greenlee Punches ;-)
FWIW, though it doesn't really mean anything useful for "The Crack", there is also an 8SN7. Like my erstwhile experiment with the 8CG7, it will work, but gain will be low, and sound "subdued" as the operating voltages will be skewed from the 8CG7's reduced emission.
/ed B
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. . . Crack would need a 6SN7 (and an enlarged chassis hole to accomodate the octal socket. "Hole Shrinkers" in reerse, anybody ? ;^)
/ed B
Knockout, see this link:
Project Tools (http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,173.0.html)
See the first post under More Advanced Tools, and the second post for a link to Harbor Freight where you can buy a set cheap! I have used my set often.
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Hmmm... now you got me thinking. I still haven't started building my kit yet. Maybe I'll punch the hole out and call up BH for some hole shrinkers. That way I can build the amp stock, get familiar with the way it sounds and then maybe drop in an octal socket and try the 6SN7 later. Are there any other component changes if I go this route?
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Go with the octal socket right off the bat and buy some 6SN7 to 12AU7 adapters online. Getting in there to enlarge the hole later will be pretty hard. When you enlarge the 9 pin hole, be sure the socket mounting hole closest to the cooling vents is still a socket mounting hole (so position your punch appropriately), otherwise the speedball upgrade will give you problems.
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Go with the octal socket right off the bat and buy some 6SN7 to 12AU7 adapters online. Getting in there to enlarge the hole later will be pretty hard. When you enlarge the 9 pin hole, be sure the socket mounting hole closest to the cooling vents is still a socket mounting hole (so position your punch appropriately), otherwise the speedball upgrade will give you problems.
Thanks! Are there any other component changes when going from the 12AU7 to the 6SN7?
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Nope, no component changes, just the pinout/socket change.
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So I found a few tubes in an old radio I was pulling apart today. The tube all look to be in good condition, no corrosion or cracks. I dont think I have a way to test them but I though I would list what they are and someone might know if they are worth hanging on to.
1 - 12BA6 unbranded
1 - Sylvania 12AV6
1 - Sylvania 12BE6
1 - RCA 35C5
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If you Google the designations, chances are very good that you will find the data for these types, including what service they were manufactured for. Remember that in the US designation system, that first number indicates the heater Voltage, so the 35C5 will require a 35 Volt heater supply to operate.
If you happen to live somewhere near a guitar shop that services vintage amps, chances are good that they will be able to test your tubes for you. If there are any that you can't find on the web, post back; I have a few tube manual reprints that will have them.
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So I found a few tubes in an old radio I was pulling apart today. The tube all look to be in good condition, no corrosion or cracks. I dont think I have a way to test them but I though I would list what they are and someone might know if they are worth hanging on to.
1 - 12BA6 unbranded
1 - Sylvania 12AV6
1 - Sylvania 12BE6
1 - RCA 35C5
I'm guessing it was missing a tube? You can always go to a tube vendor and see what the prices are on these. I wouldn't necessarily throw them away, but there isn't anything super useful in there.
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The normal tube lineup for this kind of "All American Five" AC/DC radio is 12BE6 (pentagrid converter) 12BA6 (IF amplifier) 12AT6 or 12AV6 (Detector, AVC and first audio) 50C5 (output stage) and 35W4 (rectifier).
The filament voltages add up to approximately 121 VAC. So you are missing the rectifier tube, and may have a wrong output tube, unless there is a dropping resistor in the series-conencted filament string.
The only tube that has useful audio uses would be the 12AV6, it is essentially half of a 12AX7 and two detector diodes. FWIW, 12AT7 is equivalent to half of a 5751 (plus the two diodes). These also come in 6.3V filament versions, 6AV6 and 6AT6. Generally at dirt-cheap "plinker" prices.
/ed B in NC
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Rolling which tubes (input or power) have the most impact on the sound signature? Or do both equally impact the sound signature?
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The general rule of thumb (IMO) is that the more gain, the more influence.
Since the 6080 is wired for unity gain, the 12AU7 should have a vastly greater influence on the sound, though there are some special 6080 variants that may suggest otherwise.
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Thanks Paul...I've ordered a few tubes for my Crack and haven't even rec'd it yet!
12AU7 - NOS Tung Sol, JJ Electronic ECC802-S gold pins and CIFTE (made in France)
7236 Sylvania
6AS7G British Tube CV2523
6AS7G Tung Sol
6as7G RCA
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Speedball arrived on Wednesday June 23rd, I stuffed and soldered the boards, and then did the "demolition" and SB installation Thursday AM June 24th. Of course, I can never leave anything strictly "stock" so I ended up using 47K, 2W resistors in place of the series connected 22.1 K resistors (they will serve in a future linestage build). I also mounted the small red LEDs with the dome side facing away from the boards, as I like to see all ten of them cheerily glowing when I take a look under the chassis ;-) The 3K WW resistors still have sufficient remaining lead length, so they will also have a future life in some other project (never waste anything).
One other minor "twist", due to the way that I mounted the 100 uF output caps, was to flip them down into the space vacated by the 3K WW resistors, and under the 6080 cathode SB PCB. There is still plenty of airflow, and the caps don't get too much extra heat. Also gives it a nice "clean" look under the chassis plate.
I also noticed the MJE350s didn't have a metal side, so I did a couple quick B to E and B to C "diode checks", in order to verify their proper lead positioning. Everything came up running with no problems,
Those ten little red LEDs all light up nicely.
With the previously mentioned 6CG7 driver, I get 81V on the VA plates and 6080 grids, and 106V on the 6080 cathodes.
I'm loath to use audio adjectives, but indeed, the sound is nicer! I'll leave the "flowery" terminology to those with more poetic license than I posess. I'll just say, it sounds excellent with the Senn HD600s.
/ed B in NC
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I found a 12BE6 in an old radio. Would this tube work in my amp with the speedball upgrade?
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The 12BE6 is a single heptode. Not really suitable for audio service; at least I can't think of any audio application for it.
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12BE6 is a pentagrid converter, a seven pin miniature. Has absolutely no possible use with a Crack, equipped with Speedball or not... It won't even fit into the tube socket.
What a pentagrid converter does in a tubed AM radio is to take the incoming signal, mix it against the radio's local oscillator which is tuned to operate 455 KHz above the received frequency, and that then gets amplified in the (you guessed it) 455 KHz Intermediate (12BA6) amplifier, then on to the detector and first audio amplitier (12AV6 or 12AT6) then to to the single ended pentode power amplifier (generally 50B5 or 50C5). The fifth tube would be a 35W4 half wave rectifier.
/ed B
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To add a bit, a pentagrid (five grids! A triode has only one...) converter is a single tube with a single plate, but which is an oscillator as well as a mixer. This was a very clever bit of high technology, some 70 years ago ...
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Thank you so much for the info! I think all that stuff is fascinating to learn about.
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I read somewhere that a Tung-sol 5687 would work. Has anyone heard this tube?
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I read somewhere that a Tung-sol 5687 would work. Has anyone heard this tube?
The 5687 could be used with the Speedball, but it would require more than just changing R1 on the C4S boards. The LED's would need to be removed, then replaced with resistors and bypass capacitors. 5ma and 3v under the cathode should give ~70v on the plates, so that means a cathode resistor of 600 ohms, which should be bypassed by something around 150uf (you could get away with the stock coupling caps). R1 on the C4S boards should be set for 5ma, I don't have the value sitting her at the moment, but I'm sure PJ can chime in or someone with a C4S manual handy (or the formula handy).
The pinout of the 5687 is also different.
-PB
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thanks for the response blackplate. I'd rather not mess with the wiring as things sound great already. The next tube on my list is the 5998 which seems to be the best all-rounder. Possibly a 7236 if I find one at a decent price.
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I used a Sylvania 7236 for a couple of weeks and then switched to a Tung-Sol 5998. The 5998 wins hands down to my ears.
The 7236 was easier to find and cheaper than the 5998, apparently for a reason.
thanks for the response blackplate. I'd rather not mess with the wiring as things sound great already. The next tube on my list is the 5998 which seems to be the best all-rounder. Possibly a 7236 if I find one at a decent price.
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What modifications would be required to run a 12BH7 or a JJ ECC99 in a Speedball Crack?
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no mod for 12BH7
I don't know about the JJ ECC99, anyone else know?
I see claims that it is the "same pin out" and can be used in some of the same circuits..
EDIT: link to manuf. spec sheet http://www.jj-electronic.sk/pdf/ECC99.pdf
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Shouldn't the 12BH7 be added in the list in the OP? Or is it a drop in replacement? I looked and it is not a drop in replacement for the 12AU7.
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Shouldn't the 12BH7 be added in the list in the OP? Or is it a drop in replacement? I looked and it is not a drop in replacement for the 12AU7.
I've just added it (and its similar, taller cousin, the E80CC) under a new section - basically, an "it works with the Speedball, but can't vouch for the standard circuit with plate resistors" category.
I think the main difference between the 12BH7 and 12AU7 is the doubling of heater current for the former; otherwise, the differences in Rp, mu, etc. seem to be slight enough as not to make a huge difference in volume or frequency balance (well, at least not with my Sennheiser HD650s). The power transformer seems happy as ever, even with the somewhat higher (+300mA?) total current draw. I'm sure the Speedball has a lot to do with the seemingly effortless change of tubes.
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That makes sense. I added a section in the Eros tube list for works with tube socket rewiring. There are 2 or 3 that have been discussed in that forum. Paully is using an adapter that was custom made for him to change the socket pin assignments.
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Hello all, I'm new and just ordered the Crack as well as an 57 Hamburg made bugle boy 12au7 d-getter longplate as well as sveral other notable 12au7's to try out.
Then I read this...
Many tube amplifiers use the common 12AU7 and various simular versions such as the 5814, 5963 and 6189 tubes. A lower distortion replacement is the E80CC with slightly different operating parameters and double the filament current requirements. Be careful regarding the installed height of this tube, about equal to a 6BQ5 & taller than 12AU7 tubes. Regarding the higher filament current, make sure your amplifier has the extra current capacity. Most amplifiers have plenty of reserve capacity. One way to view it is a 250va or say 250 watt power transformer will require an additional 1.9 watts per tube. That is a very small percentage increase in power demand on a 250 watt transformer. My example above with regard to power transformer additional loading is only a very rough guide. A small preamp without a power tube output section can overstress the power transformer filament with E80CC tubes. In this case, Brimar 13D5 or CBS Hytron or CBS 5814 or 5814A are your only option for best quality sonics and are far superior to the standard 12AU7. I also read Sylvania early 1950s tall black plate are of superior sonics, but never heard these tubes.
The Amperex E80CC also labeled at times as 6085. Many persons performing a search miss that 6085 only listing and buyers can get a super deal. Various labels of Amperex manufactured tubes are Valvo, Telefunken, Siemens, etc. Another brand is the Tungsram E80CC. Both are great performing tubes. The Amperex produces a warmer midrange and slightly darker high frequencies compared to the Tungsram manufacture. The Tungsram are brighter on the high frequencies and a little cooler regarding the midrange producing accurate sonics without being the least bit sterile sounding in my applications. I truely enjoy either manufacture.
Both brands of tubes are highly recommended and in most cases will greatly outperform the 12AU7 in home entertainment amplifiers. However, a few audiophiles do like the much high distortion of the 12AU7 for whatever reason. (Be advised my guide is more addressing home entertainment amplifiers vs guitar amplifiers for accurate & neutral playback sonics). The 5814 series was actually a redesigned by RCA 12AU7 due to a few complaints of the 12AU7 distortion figures when introduced in the late 1940s. The 12AU7 tube was not meeting some manufactures requirements such as Collins Radio now called Rockwell Collins
Sooo.. Is this right? was it a bad choice to spend big dollars on 12au7's before trying this type? What are the unheralded advantages to the 12au7's that the reviewer above does not define? Also BTW...What gauge hook-up wire in silver and/or copper do I need to order? THANKS
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That commentary doesn't consider circuit types, operating points, gain structures, etc., nor does he talk about tuning the tube sound to the rest of the gear in the system. There are other tubes to consider like the 12BH7. And a typical 5814 is not superior to the likes of Mullard CV4003 or Telefunken ECC82 to this old manufacturer's ears.
Just like your nose, when it comes to tubes you have to pick your own to get the utmost satisfaction.
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jrihs,
There is no thread here for the drop in equivalents for Crack. I posted a list in the Legacy forum for the FP 1 and FP 2. They use the 12AU7. This is that thread:
http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,1027.0.html
Of course Crack has a 6080 tube also. I don't have one so I didn't post for it. I think that most of the
In the FP 2 I have found the Mullard CV4003 to be top notch and really enjoy the Sylvania JAN 6189W/WA.
But each tube might appeal to different tastes.
YMMV
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What would be a good tube configuration for lower impedance headphones? I'm interested in buying some grados and would like them to sound their best on my Crack + speedball.
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First post here - thought I'd share my tube rolling crack experience.
Original tubes supplied were a GE 12AS7G and what I assume is a 12AU7 (couldn't read the writing on the glass). The amp has the speedball upgrade and smaller output caps (220uF Black Gates) which seem OK with my old Sennheiser HD580s.
I had an irritating intermittent hum and low level buzz which sometimes went away when I tapped the chassis plate with a finger. Tapping the chassis plate was clearly audible through the cans so something was obviously very microphonic. Quick visual double check of build and voltages suggested all OK there so time to try different tubes.
First up was a NOS Mullard 6080. Not as pretty as the coke-bottle GE but what an improvement in sound! All microphonics gone, no buzz, no hum, quiet background. Images are more solid, sound is cleaner at all frequencies. A splendid purchase for ten quid (that's UK pounds).
Next in was a NOS Brimar 12BH7. Nothing like the improvement from the 6080 (which is counter-intuitive, I know) but worthwhile all the same. This was twice the price of the 6080.
I also have a second GE 12AS7G (but a parallel shaped envelope, not the coke-bottle style) which I haven't tried yet (once I got the above improvements, I settled down with the music...). Will post again when I've tried it.
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Since this is your first post I don't know if this is your first kit, so bear with me. I am only trying to help with your problems with the Crack.
. . . smaller output caps (220uF Black Gates) which seem OK with my old Sennheiser HD580s.
I don't have much experience with such high dollar caps. I have used them once but it took weeks for them to break in. I wondered if you had, or are having the same experience?
I had an irritating intermittent hum and low level buzz which sometimes went away when I tapped the chassis plate with a finger. Tapping the chassis plate was clearly audible through the cans so something was obviously very microphonic. Quick visual double check of build and voltages suggested all OK there so time to try different tubes.
This brings to mind an old vaudeville routine, "Doc, it hurts when I do this..." So don't tap the top plate. Microphonics are a tube problem. You don't get the best quality tube with the kits, Doc et al leave that up to us to play with.
The buzz being intermittent would normally point to a bad connection, cold solder joint. Rewet as many solder joints as you can find. If it is in one channel then it is after the power supply. If in both it is most likely in the power supply.
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Since this is your first post I don't know if this is your first kit, so bear with me. I am only trying to help with your problems with the Crack.
Many thanks. Not my first kit (all suggestions welcome, though). Have been building S/S gear over 30 years. First tube kit was a (now much tweaked) parasex back in the 90's.
. . . smaller output caps (220uF Black Gates) which seem OK with my old Sennheiser HD580s.
I don't have much experience with such high dollar caps. I have used them once but it took weeks for them to break in. I wondered if you had, or are having the same experience?
They do sound better after a few hundred hours but they sound good straight away and then get better. They don't like to be powered down for a long time though, so don't bother with them if you leave your gear switched off for weeks at a time (my stuff is used every day).
I had an irritating intermittent hum and low level buzz which sometimes went away when I tapped the chassis plate with a finger. Tapping the chassis plate was clearly audible through the cans so something was obviously very microphonic. Quick visual double check of build and voltages suggested all OK there so time to try different tubes.
This brings to mind an old vaudeville routine, "Doc, it hurts when I do this..." So don't tap the top plate. Microphonics are a tube problem. You don't get the best quality tube with the kits, Doc et al leave that up to us to play with.
The buzz being intermittent would normally point to a bad connection, cold solder joint. Rewet as many solder joints as you can find. If it is in one channel then it is after the power supply. If in both it is most likely in the power supply.
One channel, all joints looked good. Still suspect the tube as it went away with the tube swap but time will tell...
Thanks again for your suggestions and interest.
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Ok! You have been at it a long time, me too!
Sounds like the tube swap may have made the difference.
I have my Black Gates in a GainClone that doesn't have a power switch. I'm burning in some Teflon Kommie Kaps on it right now. But I do listen to it because the GC is my work room system.
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I got my 5998 yesterday and I have been running along with a 5814. Its a good combo and the 5998 definitely has a positive impact on the sound.
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... smaller output caps (220uF Black Gates) ...
Oops. Should read 22uF. This lightens the bass a bit but the 580s aren't short on bass.
Just tried the second example of the GE 6AS7GA, much better than the first one. No microphonics and very close to the sound of the Mullard 6080. The Mullard has a slight edge in solidity and detail resolution though.
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The E80CC looks appealing to me and I do have the speedball in my amp so I'm guessing its safe to try it out. I use the 5998 mostly as a power tube so ideally the E80CC would work well in combination. I really like the fast, detail oriented tubes that will run well with my 120ohm AKGs.
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Another driver tube experiment to report on, and a weird one at that: a Chatham 2399. This oddball tube doesn't appear to be that common in the literature, but from what I read, it's basically a re-badged Tung-Sol 5998. I've seen a few people question whether this is the case, or that the 2399 might be sort of "in between" a 6080 and 5998. From the 5998-type dotted plates to the noticeably lower output impedance the tube yields in the cathode follower arrangement (32 ohm phones that sounded like crap on the stock circuit sound much better and balanced with the 2399), it is obviously more like a 5998 than a 6080. In fact, I have no reason to believe it is not just a 5998 in different clothing.
I have found that the 2399 is a bit brighter (or more clinical?) than the 6N13S I was using before, so the driver tube was changed to temper the overall sound. The 12BH7 sounded much worse (sharp and dry, almost sold-state sounding) with the 2399 than a 5963/12AU7, so I went back to the former. Tube rolling seems to be all about balance - a dry sounding, bright power tube may have great synergy with a softer driver tube, and vice versa. Granted, I think this also has to do with the impedance that my 300 ohm HD-650's "like to see" - lower isn't necessarily better. In this case, I seem to like the 2399/5963 combo a bit better than the 6N13S/12BH7 one used before, so I'm going to stick with that setup for a while.
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question for anyone, I have a pinacle audio 12au7 that flashes (one filament only) when I power up the amp, none of my other 12au7's or variants do this. It seems to sound ok. Is this anything I should worry about?
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Sounds like it might be of European heritage. The flashing filaments were, for some years, part of their version of "controlled warm-up" for their heaters. I've seen it most often in 12Axx series tubes, but they used it in others as well.
If this is the case, it is nothing to be concerned about.
Edit: I now see that Angela Instruments had some 12AU7s on E-Bay listed as "Pinnacle European Audio Tube", so I'd say the odds are better that you have a Euro-tube.
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JC, thanks for the info! Yes this is in fact one of Angela's ebay tubes. I've purchased lots of random items from them over the years and the tube was pretty reasonable, $10 shipped I think so not much of a risk to give one a try. It seems to sound pretty good, at least as good as the other 12au7's I have.
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That certainly seems very reasonable, considering what new-manufacture ones go for retail.
As I've mentioned before, my first experience with this flashing phenomenon was in a vintage British guitar amp that just been purchased by the shop I was doing some repair work for. We knew nothing about it at the time, so I think you can imagine the owner's face when four of those little flashes went off when he turned the amp on for the first time! I don't think he could have got to that plug any faster on a bet!
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Waiting for Crack to arrive, stuck in customs I think.
But have bought some 13D5 think these are 6.3V
Do I have to do any mods to the heater wiring, or will they just go straight in?
If have to mod, will a 12au7 work all right afterwards, don't want to have to keep swapping the wiring, I know you lot would put in a switch somehow, but I am afraid my buildings not up to that.
Thanks in advance for any help, did not think about this when I bought them, oh hum.
Cheers Paul
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Is the 6528 a plug in replacement for the 6080 and usable in the stock Crack? I don't see it listed at the start of this thread.
http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6528.html (http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6528.html)
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No, a 6528 won't work - draws twice the heater current.
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No, a 6528 won't work - draws twice the heater current.
Dang, it apparently helps to lower impedance. Thought it'd be interesting to try it with my Grado headphones.
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You can't lower the impedance of Crack close enough to the 32 ohm range to sound as good as it does with higher impedance headphones. IMO it will be nice, but not fantastic, even with a 5998 (which sounds great with Senns, Beyers, etc). However we are working on a new, different amp circuit that would specifically address 32 ohm headphones.
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You can't lower the impedance of Crack close enough to the 32 ohm range to sound as good as it does with higher impedance headphones. IMO it will be nice, but not fantastic, even with a 5998 (which sounds great with Senns, Beyers, etc). However we are working on a new, different amp circuit that would specifically address 32 ohm headphones.
A modification to the Crack or a new product?
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ok Doc you've let the cat out of the bag...
However we are working on a new, different amp circuit that would specifically address 32 ohm headphones.
Any idea when this might arrive? care to share any details? :D
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The hope is to have a prototype running for the March 5 HeadFi meeting at BHQ. At this point I don't know if it will happen that fast, or even if it does, whether the amp will be broken in. It certainly won't be refined yet - we usually screw around with the design and parts a bit before releasing a product.
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well that's awesome... my birthday is in march ;) I look forward to hearing more as it develops, who knows maybe I'll have something to compare to the Crack soon :D
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Sadly, my 5998 went out on me today. I lost the right channel after I powered the amp on after switching the 12AU7 to a 5814. I was scared at first but I pulled out the 5998 and put in an a 6AS7G and got both channels back. Sounds good now but I find there to be a noticeable difference in quality with the 5998 being very dark and detailed.
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that's too bad :( at least it was the tube and not some other component but those 5998's are hard to come by unless you can afford what people are asking. I've been trying to get one off ebay but they're never cheap and always people wanting them... someday!
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question, I saw in another thread PJ mentioned a tube I hadn't seen listed before 7802 as a sub for the 6080/6AS7, I happened a cross a NOS Tung-Sol 7802 pretty cheap so I picked it up, should this just drop in or will it need any changes, I've been looking for a 5998 to try and still haven't seen anything that didn't qualify as "stupid expensive" and I'm not going to spend the kind of money those tubes are going for, I figure if this guy is a drop in and I don't like the sound I won't have any trouble getting my money out of it, assuming it's fully serviceable.
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well according to the data sheet I couldn't see a reason the 7802 isn't a drop in sub so I plugged it in and it's got about 28hrs on it now and sounds great.
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You can add the CV2984 to the output tube alternative lists, it's a drop in replacement. I just picked a GEC one up to have as a spare. It seems good nothing really between it and my Mullard 6080 anyway.
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Thanks! Isn't CV2984 just the euro designation for 6080 though? Or am I misunderstanding something?
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It's the uk military spec version of the 6080 which as far as I know is known as a 6080 here.
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Hi guys.
Im not jacked on tube's at all. So if I had to get a suggestion of a drop in tube to try what should I look at??
thanks!!
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Can anyone advise as to whether a Shuguang cv181-z is a safe 6sn7 alternative in the crack?
I've read conflicting comments on the net - one site claiming the cv181-z is a safe 6sn7 replacement "in any circuit" (http://thetubestore.com/sh-cv181-z.html), while another gives it rave reviews while also emphasizing the heightened current draw from the heaters of the cv181-z (http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/shuguang_treasures_cv181_e.html). Has anyone tried this tube in their crack, and is it okay to do so?
Thanks in advance for any comments any of your can offer!
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Neither of the suggested web sites has much actual data, and I'm afraid the tnt-audio one has a fair amount of misinformation. (I am not questioning his listening report, just some of the technical aspects.) Do read his follow-up article. But Grant Fidelity has a spec sheet for the tube:
http://grantfidelity.com/site/files/shuguang%20treasure%20tube%20spec%20cv-181_0.pdf
From these specs, it is equivalent to a 6SN7-GTA, including the same 600mA heater current, the same mu of 20 and transconductance of 2.6mA/volt, and the same 450v maximum plate voltage. In fact the specs are so identical that it is clear they are copies of the 6SN7 specs. A couple of them are mis-labeled but the intention is clear. Not surprisingly, no information is available that I could find reporting how close to these specs the average tube might actually be.
A real CV181 (no -Z, not from Shuguang) is said to be equivalent to an ECC32, but the available information is small and inconsistent - I found one report of 600mA and another of 950mA heater current, for example. Why they would mark a tube with the designation of another is beyond me - unless they mean to indicate the size and shape of the envelope rather than the operating parameters. Kind of like a $20 "Rolex" watch, I guess. :^)
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Much appreciated Paul! Setting aside the needlessly confusing naming scheme, it sounds like they should at least be safe to try in the crack - at least based on the paper specs. I've heard generally good things about the "treasures" on head-fi - although I believe most of the chatter was about their 300b variant.
I just might give one a try. If I do, I'll make sure to chime back in and let you all know how it worked out.
Thanks again for breaking this all down for me!
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To follow up on my last post, upon further reading, it looks like the verdict on head-fi is that Shuguang Treasures are just "alright" but nothing to write home about.
If anyone else is interested in reading all or part of a 60 page thread devoted to 6sn7 tubes, here's the link: https://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts/735 (https://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts/735)
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Yes, after my initial enthusiasm for the 2a3z Treasures, they didn't live up to the hype for me -- very smooth sound, but not very good on the top end.
I really like the Russian military 6h8c 6sn7 equivalents (well, almost equivalents) -- the military version with the metal base -- the regular run of the mill ones are again, nothing to write home about. Of course the real ones are hard to get and expensive.
-- Jim
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This thread has gotten quite long, so I'm not sure where the crept in - but a 6SN7 is a viable substitute for the 12AU7 (with a socket adapter). It is NOT a substitute for the 6080/6AS7/etc! You can plug it in and you'll get some sound out - for a while - but it will throw the operating points way out and will increase distortion a lot.
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I have one of those adapters on the way and a box of red base 6sn7's Ken-Rad's etc. I can't wait to tube roll. I've promised my self to give it a week before I start rolling
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What type of adapter does one need to use different tubes? Sorry for the uneducated question.
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I purchased an adapter from ebay :http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320659633166&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320659633166&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT). I am very happy with it. I think I have notice a very very small amount of hum but it could be the tube. Anyway for $14.00 USD you can't beat it, except to be warned it opens the gates to more options to spend money on tubes!!!
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I just put in the JJ 12AU7 just to see if it was any better than the EH and I think it's more musical and I can hear better seperation in between the instruments. For a ten dollar new production tube it's worth a roll.
Next is the groove tubes 12au7 ( I think I saw one in my tube box). I'm waiting for at least 24 hours of break in before I try my telefunken and clear top rca's
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This thread has gotten quite long, so I'm not sure where the crept in - but a 6SN7 is a viable substitute for the 12AU7 (with a socket adapter). It is NOT a substitute for the 6080/6AS7/etc! You can plug it in and you'll get some sound out - for a while - but it will throw the operating points way out and will increase distortion a lot.
Thanks for the further clarification Paul! I had gotten the naming schemes mixed up in suggesting that I might use a Shuguang in place of my 5998. I have edited my prior post accordingly to minimize the confusion.
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I couldn't resist.... After 15 - 20 Hrs. of break in I put in a 50's NOS Sylvania 6AS7G (black plates) and a Telefunken 12AU7.
All I have to say is holy crap! That is the closest I've ever felt to "being there" while listening to my gear. My Crack is totally stock and I did this on purpose this time so that I could see what changes made the biggest difference.
I can't wait until it breaks in!
My source is a heavily modified Philips DVD 963 SA.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/19911-upgrading-philips-dvd-963-sa.html
The key mods were:
Replacing opamps in output stage with BB OPA627's
Coupling caps are Blackgate NX
Main PSU cap is a Blackgate VK (or STD, I can't remember )
Nichicon Muse KZ's in all the key locations
Seperate Bi Polar regulated supply for the output stage ( bumped up to 24V, if I remember )
Replaced DAC chip with next model up in the same line, and then stacked another one on top ( That was not for the faint at heart )
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Does anyone know if oxidized pins can result in hum?
I recently picked up 2 supposedly nos RCA 12bh7a's on the cheap on ebay. Unfortunately, the black plate tube (1959), supposedly the better of the 2, produces a pretty noticeable hum when plugged into my crack. The grey plate tube (1963), by contrast, sounds quite good and is perfectly quiet. For purposes of comparison, I wouldn't say that I clearly prefer the grey plate to the 12au7 bugle boy I was previously running, but I do like it better than the RCA "clear top" 12au7 I also have on hand.
The black plate tube definitely has dirtier pins than the others and was harder to slide into the socket. Could this possibly relate to the hum I'm hearing. Would it be worth my picking up some contact cleaner to see if this possibly improves the situation? Alternatively, do brass or copper dampers like these (http://www.audiotubes.com/damper.htm ) actually help to reduce hum?
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Just buffing the pins with fine steel wool can work wonders. If you want to get hardcore you can chuck a Q tip in a Dremel and polish the pins with something like Simichrome.
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Thanks Doc!
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I used to use Caig de-Oxit and then some Pro Gold... I'll have to find it and try some out. I had forgotten about it.
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What about the 6520 on the output? Supposed to be a better version of a 6as7G?
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I hosed one side of my precious 5998 by being too hasty with an input tube roll, I didn't give it nearly enough time to cool down before powering back up...I wanted to cry.
I did a little research and decided to try 7236, which is basically a souped-up computer-rated version of a 5998. To my ears, I actually think it sounds a little better than a 5998! It's at least as good. I would have to highly recommend checking one out if you are having trouble getting your hands on a real 5998. Yes, they aren't the sexy ST style bottle, but I think they still look pretty darn cool on the Crack.
Brendan @ tubeworld has a NOS pile of these right now for a very reasonable price. I'm fortunate (my wallet says unfortunate) to be local to tubeworld.com HQ!
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I should probably ask this on the tube forum at the Asylum but I'll give it a shot here. I was digging through my stash and found two tubes that I bought a decade ago off of ebay. They were sold as Philips ECC82's. Both tubes are completely wiped except for some etched codes near the bottoms. One has the Herleen Delta followed by 2B3 and the other the Herleen Delta followed by 2B4. Also, looking at the bottoms, each has a single letter etched inside the glass. One with a capital H and another with a capital E.
I never used them because I was never 100% sure if they were 12AU7's or 12AX7's or one of the 9 pins with similiar internal construction. I havent been able to correlate the code with a tube type, I think its just manufacturing plant and date code but I dont know much about code. They have Halo getters and the half circle through one side of the plates and look like Amperex 12AU7 / ECC82's but I have 12AX7's that look the same. They are flashers, but I think a lot of the Amperex and other euro 9 pins were flashers. I tested them as 12AU7's and they test as such (relative to my known 12AU7's) but it's just an old heathkit emissions tester that I use to give me a very general idea of whether the tube is strong (atleast out of circuit) and mainly to test for shorts.
I didnt try testing a 12AX7 using 12AU7 settings (or vice versa) in the tester, I assume that I could try that without damaging the tester or the tube, but Im not positive. If I plugged them into one of my hi-fi amps that uses a 12AX7 preamp tube, I suppose I would easily notice the lower gain in the decreased output from the amp if they are indeed 12AU7's, right? I just dont want to roll one into Crack and do any damage if it's not a 12AU7/ECC82.
Any advice appreciated. Thanks.
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Ive had fun rolling a few tubes through the Crack. I have a friend who does Gov't work who is also a guitar amp builder and he comes across some nice tubes from time to time and had a pretty modest stash (compared to Doc anyways) I rolled the following all NOS except the Mullard which tested very strong
RCA 12AU7 black plate
RCA 12AU7 grey plate
RCA 5814a black plate
Mullard 12AU7
Tung Sol 12BH7A black plate
Amperex 12AU7 orange globe
RCA 12BH7 black plate
EH 12AU7
GE 5814A grey plate
Havent had a chance to try anything other than the Raytheon 6080WA that came with it but I did manage to pick up a NOS GEC 6080 on ebay ...I have no idea what to expect but for $20 i figured its worth a roll....
Im really liking the Tungsol 12bh7a the best right now and the RCA 5814A is just slightly behind it.
Tube rolling is really fun
Anyone tried an Amperex 7316?
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Just buffing the pins with fine steel wool can work wonders. If you want to get hardcore you can chuck a Q tip in a Dremel and polish the pins with something like Simichrome.
Happy to report that after taking some fine grain sandpaper to the pins, and then inserting, removing and reinserting the tube a half dozen or so times, my 1959 rca blackplate (12bh7a) is now singing beautifully in my crack without the slightest hum.
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So I'm set for signal tubes for the near future (other than wanting to play with a 6SN7) but I'm having a devil of a time finding some alternative power tubes.
Specially, does anyone know where I could buy a 5998 (NOT 5998A)? Other than a pair on eBay, I can't find any to be bought at all.
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I take it that you only want the ST shaped 5998 (Tungsol). Not the straight glass which, I think are 5998A's (usually anyway).
There is one member here who may have one for sale but I'll have to let him speak for himself. I'll PM him for you. I picked one up from him.
Other than that, they will pop up on ebay fairly frequently. You can also inquire in the tubes asylum at AA. And check Audiogon. But watch this thread or you Bottlehead PM, I may have a line on one for you.
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Thanks Laudanum.
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My pleasure.
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Im really liking the Tungsol 12bh7a the best right now and the RCA 5814A is just slightly behind it.
Thanks for recommending the TS 12bh7a! I stumbled on a deal on one (nos from 1959) on ebay a week or so ago, and it arrived last night. I am really enjoying what I'm hearing so far. This may well be a new favorite for me.
My early impression (via HD800's) is that the trebles have the same texture and timbre that I like so much from my 12au7 bugle boy but with the added fullness of sound (perhaps slightly elevated mids/mid-bass?) that seems typical of the difference between 12bh7a's and 12au7's.
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thats what i was hearing too. im not sure what the specs are on them...they could have more gain giving the illusion of that though. whatever the case i really like them. glad you are enjoying them too. being relatively new to tube audio tube rolling is fun but i'd rather not throw good money after bad.
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I just picked up a couple (RCA?) "JAN" 6AS7G. Yesterday. Hopefully they arrive sometime next week. I'm looking forward to doing a little rolling.
What seems to make the biggest difference in SQ with the Crack? Output tube or driver tube?
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IMHO it is a waste of money to purchase any addition 6080 or 6AS7's for tube rolling over the stock tube, save your money and put it towards a 5998 or 2399, if one can not afford the 5998 then definitely try the 6AS7 over any 6080. I have not heard the 421A, 5998A, or 7236, all variations in the 5998 family.
Tubes that I have rolled through my Crack (I had 17 6080/6AS7 tubes before purchasing the Crack, the 2399/5998 were the only tubes that I purchased):
6080WB: Raytheon, Sylvania, Tung-Sol, GE, and Chatham
6AS7G: RCA, Raytheon, and Tung-Sol
2399/5998: Chatham and Tung-Sol.
Again IMHO in general the 6AS7 is better sounding than any 6080 tube. The 6080 is an extremely rugged tube (really like the looks of this tubes internal structure), but just like the 5691/5692 tube in the 6SL7/6SN7 family, tubes build for long life and rugged uses are usually not the best sounding tube.
Driver Tube: Way too many to list, but my preference is the 6SN7GT. Tung-Sol round plate 6SN7GT, or RCA VT-231/6SN7GT, leaning towards the RCA in the Crack.
The 5998 is a large improvement over the 6080, not as big an improvement over the 6AS7 but still the better sounding tube.
I believe that the largest improvement in sound quality comes from the driver tube. But, finding the best sounding driver tube for a 6080, does not mean that it would be the best sounding tube with the 6AS7 or 5998. One must roll tubes for each individual Output tube to find the optimal sound.
Caution!! The level of modification also greatly effects the quality of sound of any piece of equipment. My Crack has the Speedball upgrade, 104 uf film OP Caps (parallel 52uf), last Power Supply cap is a 52uf film, and last PS resister replaced with a choke, and all PS and OP caps bypassed with .01 uf teflon caps. If you have a stock Crack or have only the Speedball upgrade my recommendations may not apply, just a rough starting point.
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In my humble experience, switching the output tube to a 5998 yielded better gains than several different 12AU7's or a 12BH7 (although the 12BH7 is still very early listening).
*
On a semi-related note, one of the pins fell off one of the 12BH7's I bought. Huge shame, because it was a beautiful looking long-plate version :(
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I'd agree that going from a 6080 to a 5998 was a much bigger change than messing around with different 12AU7s and 12BH7s. I have to wonder, though, if the primary reason for that is changing to the 5998 significantly lowers the output impedance. Even with high-impedance cans, that's still a good thing.
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I have to wonder, though, if the primary reason for that is changing to the 5998 significantly lowers the output impedance. Even with high-impedance cans, that's still a good thing.
As good an explanation as any!
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Lee knows his tubes and has helped me with some 6SN7 info (thanks again, Lee).
I think it's worth picking up a socket adapter and trying some of the 6SN7's. Outside of the more expensive top 5 6SN7's the Sylvania Chrome Top/Dome 6SN7's (GTA, GTB) are pretty nice sounding tubes and can be found for not much money, especially re-branded (Baldwin, Silvertone etc). I was able to pick up a Sylvania Jan CHS 6SN7GT / VT231 (bottom getter) which I think is one of the top 5's on most lists. This is a really nice tube. So is the brown base sylvania 6SN7WGTA that I picked up in a lot of several 6SN7's. But I could be very happy with the Chrome Domes and, atleast to my non-golden ears, they arent that far behind. Of course, YMMV. I plan on building a FPIII with octal sockets for 6SN7's.
I also have a Tungsol 5998 (and rebranded spare) that I picked up mainly to try with my AKG 601's. The 5998 was reportedly of particular benefit with the 601's leaner bass because of the lowered output imp. of Crack when using this tube. I cannot say that the bass is increased in quantity over the 6AS7 but it is tightened up and the added gain is of benefit for less efficient phones. I agree that most will probably find it to be the better sounding tube overall, which is the most important thing. I dont know if I would jump to buy a 5998 if money was tight and one was happy with the 6AS7 which really are nice sounding tubes. But definitely worth a buy and try if the budget allows. Again, YMMV.
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The 5998 was reportedly of particular benefit with the 601's leaner bass because of the lowered output imp. of Crack when using this tube.
I may be wrong here, but it is my understanding that a lower output impedance will actually reduce the bass. When calculating the cutoff frequency, the output impedance is in series with the load - and lower impedance increases the cutoff. The benefit from a lower output impedance is an increase in the damping factor - so whatever bass is there should be tighter.
Its a careful balancing act between these opposing effects, and really comes down to personal taste.
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I did some listening last week to try to better distinguish the differences between the Crack and the Smack with headphones of various impedances and it was clear that Crack does have nice tight bass, even on lower impedance headphones, apparently due in part to the OTL design (as long as the cans aren't power hungry like LCD-2s or K1000s). When headphones are matched with the output impedance switch on the Smack its output transformers give a sense of better (more, deeper) bass balance with low impedance cans, but the notes are a bit less sharply defined. The Smack excels in the mid and treble regions where a transformer shows an advantage over a cathode follower in terms of smoothness and resolution.
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The 5998 was reportedly of particular benefit with the 601's leaner bass because of the lowered output imp. of Crack when using this tube.
I may be wrong here, but it is my understanding that a lower output impedance will actually reduce the bass. When calculating the cutoff frequency, the output impedance is in series with the load - and lower impedance increases the cutoff. The benefit from a lower output impedance is an increase in the damping factor - so whatever bass is there should be tighter.
Its a careful balancing act between these opposing effects, and really comes down to personal taste.
That should be right according to a related response by Paul J. to a question I had a while back. I had forgotten about it. The higher damping factor would explain my hearing the tightened bass. That said, I dont think there was any real decrease in bass, not audible anyway. But being a matter of cutoff frequency being raised, not actual reduction of the entire bass frequency range, it wouldnt necessarily translate to an audible decrease in bass anyway.
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I did some calculating, based on the published curves and specs, a while back. In the stock circuit, the output impedance of a 5998 is 80% of the 6AS7 impedance - quite a small difference, in spite of what the difference might be at the operating points cited in the data sheets. I doubt the impedance is the reason for the sonic difference.
I and a few others around here have heard these tubes as straight amplifiers (preamps) with the output taken from the anode. In this case, the 5998 has a higher output impedance than the 6AS7, and the broad consensus is that it still sounds superior.
I wish I knew why.
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Hello,
I'm fond of the 5998 myself, it performed well in just about every amp I have heard one in. Folks try to tell me that the WE 421A is a better tube. They don't seem to appreciate it when I tell them that the 421As are all rebranded TS 5998s. Has anyone ever rolled an Amperex 7316 in this amp, or has anyone ever heard one in other equipment? I've heard raves about this tube but they are rare and cost half as much as the Crack. Probably won't ever buy one, just wonder if they sound as good as people say.
Cheers,
Shawn Prigmore
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Folks try to tell me that the WE 421A is a better tube. They don't seem to appreciate it when I tell them that the 421As are all rebranded TS 5998s.
To be fair, I have heard a convincing argument that 421A tubes were 5998 tubes specifically hand-selected for high transconductance. Sure as hell doesn't justify their extra price to me though......
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To be fair, I have heard a convincing argument that 421A tubes were 5998 tubes specifically hand-selected for high transconductance. Sure as hell doesn't justify their extra price to me though......
That's interesting, I hadn't heard that. Sounds feasible though, I wonder how much variation in transconductance there can be amongst tubes made with the same manufacturing methods. Maybe someone with a little experience could enlighten me. I agree that the price difference is nuts. Of course supply and demand drives that, and somebody is willing to pay otherwise they couldn't charge that much. Same with the Amperex 7316 I asked about.
Cheers,
Shawn Prigmore
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My 5998 Tung-sol Chatham came in the mail today. I'm listening to the Scorpions at the moment. Its sounds quite good. I've never heard my HD600 sound this good.
I also have a CBS 6AS7G. It sounds almost as good as the 5998. It has a little bit more bass.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-hRgIfonKVME/Tk3XUbk7E_I/AAAAAAAAAow/uI-pjXKOqQI/s800/IMG_0271.JPG)
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My 5998 Tung-sol Chatham came in the mail today. I'm listening to the Scorpions at the moment. Its sounds quite good. I've never heard my HD600 sound this good.
I also have a CBS 6AS7G. It sounds almost as good as the 5998. It has a little bit more bass.
Nice. I just received a pair of RCA 6AS7G yesterday. Not a whole lot of difference in sound over the Tung-Sol 6080 that came with it, but it sure looks cool. Makes the Crack look like a beast.
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My 5998 Tung-sol Chatham came in the mail today. I'm listening to the Scorpions at the moment. Its sounds quite good. I've never heard my HD600 sound this good.
I also have a CBS 6AS7G. It sounds almost as good as the 5998. It has a little bit more bass.
I initially thought that the 6AS7 had a bit more bass than the 5998 as well (and it may). But I wasnt so sure after listening for a while. I heard subtleties in bass lines, for example, a little bit clearer with the 5998, skin attack on drums seems a little crisper and more defined. Upper mids and treble seems a bit cleaner with a little more detail and treble maybe slightly more extended but smooth. These were pretty subtle differences but noticeable. With these differences in both the lower and upper ends of the frequency range I wasnt so sure that I was really hearing less bass but that it was a bit tighter. The 5998 has higher gain which is the most noticeable difference right off the bat. But I did not play a wide range of music to compare and I didnt spend a huge amount of time analyzing the differences which isnt something Im good at anyway. I'd rather just listen to the music and stick with a tube based on how the music "feels" rather than my actually thinking about how it sounds ... if that makes sense.
I was/am quite happy with the RCA 6AS7 and really wanted to try the 5998 more for my AKG K601's. But the 601's reportedly have a long burn in and they really have changed from out of the box. I put the 5998 aside to revisit after the 601's have had some good hours on them. It will, in all probability, end up being the tube I use in Crack. To me, it has a certain rightness to it's sound beyond the descriptions that I dont have the vocabulary to describe, assuming it's actually someting that could be put into words.
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I think your description of the 5998 is pretty darn good.
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Just a quick question from a newbie, I have built the Crack with Speedball, was wondering if by swapping out to different tubes, would that alter my voltage check numbers? Thanks.
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Yes, different tubes can change the voltages on pins A1, A6, B1, B3, B4 and B6 somewhat.
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Thanks Doc, i figured they might.
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If the gain with the stock 6080 tube is around 15dB, what's the gain once you swap in a 5998?
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HI all! Regarding soviet era tubes...I was wondering what, if any difference is between the 6H13 and 6N13. I just got a 6H5 ... not a great tube in this application imho.
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Nothing more than a translation issue -- h and n being alternate western designations for the same cyrillic letter. Likewise b and v. Source is a good friend with a Ph.D. in Russian Literature who works mostly as a translator.
In other words, it should bwe the same tube.
-- Jim
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Sure that makes sense but funny that they would use both within slavic countries. Извини, пожалуйста!
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When looking at suitable alternative tubes, what are the main points that I should look for in the datasheet. For instance I have a 12AV7 (5965) tube. Could this work in place of the 12AU7?
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For a good match, you must match gain (mu), plate resistance (rp), and transconductance (gm). They are related, and a match of any two means the third will match as well. However, rp and gm are strong functions of plate current, so make sure the parameters are quoted at similar currents. Here is an example:
12AU7 at 10.5mA mu=17, rp=7700, gm=2200
6CG7 at 9.0mA mu=20, rp=7700, gm=2600
These are within less than 20%, indicating a close enough match for most purposes. Note that the 6CG7 needs twice as much heater current, fortunately Crack has enough current available to handle this requirement. You should always check this too, though!
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While wandering through an electronics junk store while visiting my daughter for Thanksgiving I couldn't stop myself from buying a couple of tubes from their piles (literally) of tubes. I got an RCA 6ca7g that was just sitting in the bin (no box) that could be new (or not), and what appears to be a new in box GE 6ca7ga. The place (see below for those of you in the silicon valley area) had a simple pricing scheme: all tubes of a given type cost the same, independent of condition, with no testing and no guarantee!
So here's my real question: I now have two tubes that could be perfect or could have been sitting in that bin since somebody determined they didn't work 40 years ago and never got around to throwing them out. Having experienced some rather interesting tube failures over the years, I'm a little nervous to just plug them into my shiny new crack and fire it up. So nothing to worry about, just slam them in and look for fireworks in case I need to pull the plug? Or just write off this small impulse buy and get some tubes from somebody that has actually tested them before I put them in?
*http://www.yelp.com/biz/hsc-electronic-supply-santa-clara-2
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Well, the 6CA7 is a power pentode (el34 equivalent), so there's no place to use it in the Crack. Both tubes in the Crack are dual triodes -- one small signal, one power.
HTH,
Jim
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Okay, violated my "don't ever send email after midnight because bad things happen" rule.
The two tubes are, of course, really a 6AS7G and 6AS7GA. I guess I have 6CA7 seared into my brain after too many years of nursing a Dynaco Stereo 70 in my youth (showing my age!).
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Ah, well I'm sure we've all been there :-).
If it were me I'd probably start with the one in the factory box, do a visual inspection to make sure everyting looks ok internally, then make sure the filament is a low resistance and the other pins are very high -- ruling out any shorts between elements) and then give it a try.
This is assuming that you know the amp is working to begin with.
HTH,
Jim
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Thanks Jim, that sounds like good advice. It's been 25 years since I had tube technology in my system, and I've forgotten even the basics. I'll be home in a couple of days and give the tubes a try. The recently finished crack is working just fine, but all of the discussion of tube rolling made me feel like I needed to play around as well. Besides, the crack will look a lot cooler if the ST bottle tube works ;-)
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Hi
Do any of you have som link for tubes om ebay?
I would like som tubes that give more lower end/bass
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http://www.ebay.de/itm/6H13C-Svetlana-Rohre-6AS7G-6080-NOS-Rohrenverstarker-Tube-amp-/390366303246?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item5ae3a5140e (http://www.ebay.de/itm/6H13C-Svetlana-Rohre-6AS7G-6080-NOS-Rohrenverstarker-Tube-amp-/390366303246?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item5ae3a5140e)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/6N5S-6H5C-6AS7G-C-SVETLANA-USSR-TUBE-NIB-60s-/250948155938?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item3a6dacfa22
Would they be any good?
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I have one of those Svetlana 6N5S tubes, and yes the lower end is somewhat more pronounced than in a 6080.
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langendorf, If I remember correctly the RCA 6080/6AS7 tube usually has more base.
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Hi
I just orderet the 6H13C Svetlana. But i should i order the Svetlana 6N5S to?
If you have any suggestions on input tube. And links to ebay i would apriciate it
Thanks :)
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The 6N5S(6H5C) is a military version of the 6H13C. I'd guess sonic differences between the two would be very small.
As for the driver tube, I like a Philips 6189W with my 6N5S. But these are a matter of taste, really. And your choice headphone will make a big difference on tube matching aswell.
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shure it
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Further back in the thread I wrote that the 6H5C was not as good as the 6H13C. After reading Bolivars comment above I went back to give it another try. It still seems more laid back (mushy bass?) but is seemingly improving so I guess it may need more break-in. I admit that my previous comment was probably premature.
The 6H13C seemed alot like my WE 421a and perhaps not as much bass as the "military version"! if that's possible. Still the 421a rules, but not by that much.
It can be expensive to be a beginner in this hobby. For instance, everyone says that mullard 12au7's are warm (sometimes they say too warm) which did not seem appealing to me given my tastes, so I went right for the german, french, and dutch tubes (love them all), anyways I got the ones I wanted. Time to try a mullard and got a good price on a used 57? long plate, halo getter and wow...warm is not the qualifier I would use, amazing body and depth yes but not mushy at all (which is what I had assumed warm would mean). Sooo, guess I will to try a square getter long-plate, then I'll want back-ups....then I'll discover something else! Not wild about the 12bh7 (yet) but the 6sn7's with the adapter I got on ebay are looking pretty good!...love it but its adding up $$$.
One thing about these russian tubes...the quality seems to vary (regardless of source) so far. I usually buy in pairs (3 pairs so far from ebay) and invariably either one is bad or has uneven getters (which doesn't seem to affect sound). Just fyi.
Cheers
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Juts curious ... Are the 6H13C and/or 6H5C higher gain tubes like the 5998 and, I assume, the WE 421? Higher gain compared to the 6080 or 6AS7 that is.
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Hey Bolivar! Regarding my last post, I believe I know why the 6H5C is not quite as nice sounding as my 6H13C's. It is in fact, the later that is the military version. This is evidenced by the boxes the two came in (13's are plain cardboard - military, the 5's are commercial packaging). This is also evidenced by the relative availability of the 13's, which are much more common I think...due to the soviet military industrial complex? Also, the 13's have a diamond mark denoting military...AND, I now remember reading somewhere that the 13's were in fact the military rugidized version...
Thank goodness for my senior moments...hmmm...but my ears are getting better.
I can recommend the 6H5C's now (reversing previous comments up a few posts), but not as much as the 13's, and those not as much as the 421a's
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Laudanum...not sure about the gain but I thought I saw something about this earlier...maybe...but I will look!
Anybody else know?
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Thanks jrihs, I went ahead and looked up the 6H13C. It appears to be a higher gain tube like the 5998 based on a couple datasheets I found. Im not comparing sonics, just amplification factor. Couldnt find anything of confidence on the 6H5C (6N5S). I wonder if it could be a lower gain variant rather than just a non-military spec tube.
Anyway, someone with both can maybe chime in ...
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Bear in mind that in this application the output tube is operating as a cathode follower, the gain of a cathode follower stage will always be less than 1. That is to say, the 5998 doesn't really have more gain than the 6080 in this applications, it just loses less gain.
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Thanks Doc, that,s good to know!
Laudanum, What you say about the 6H5C (6N5S) makes allot of sence! I have to jack-up the vol. when that one goes in. Not so with the 13's or the 421a.
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Alright, seems I've read some misleading info regarding these russian tubes somewhere. I'm by no means an expert.
Who'd guess the internet could be wrong about anything : )
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No worries man...I'm a rookie myself...Hey it got me to go back and check that 6H5C tube, gave it a second chance. Now I think I understand it better, and to trust my ears more ;>
Nostrovia! er, um cheers!
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Not really misleading Bolivar. Both appear to be fine as direct substitutes so no problems. I didnt check all the specs and I couldnt find much of anything on the 6H5C (6N5S) except for a Russian data sheet and another sheet that had partial spec comparison between the different US and Russian tubes based on the tube numbering. If I remember, that one may have listed the 6H5C with lower amplification factor. I think that sparked my wondering if the 6H5C would really be the 6AS7 "sub" in terms of gain and the 6H13C the higher gain version ... maybe even intended as the Russian 5998 "equivalent". Of course, some of this is just a guess on my part.
Seeing how there is a sonic difference between the 6AS7 and the 5998 that goes beyond that of "gain", I am curious of your impressions, jrihs, regarding the sonic differences between the two Russian tubes.
A lot of detail isnt necessary, but if you get a chance, maybe a little more detail on the sonics of both tubes. And dont worry about "audiophile" jargon, it's not my forte either and to be quite honest, I dont really aspire to become fluent in audiophile-ese.
Thanks
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I'll get on it! As a preliminary, both have more bass (than the 421a). which may or may not be a good thing. I say that because neither have really tight, clean bass (on the crack). and the 6H5C is flabbier than that of the 13 to my ears. Good overall body which pair up well with Telefunkens...and mullard 12au7's as well. The 6H5c does require higher volume to get things focused...which does happen. Both are nice in other areas though. More on that later....To busy this weekend!
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Seems more and more like the "5" is closer to a 6AS7 and the "13" closer to a 5998. Maybe I'll pick some up down the road. In the meantime, I'll stay tuned to this thread as always. Thanks jrihs.
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Yeah that's probably the case...
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Interesting. I have a 6N13S/6H13C tube in my Crack and my perception has been that electrically, it appears identical to the 6AS7 and 6080 tubes I have, but certainly different than the 5998. I know this because when experimenting, it acted the same way into a low-impedance load (Grados) as the 6AS7 family of tubes, whereas plugging in the 5998 led to a pronounced difference in bass and upper-midrange frequencies, presumably due to the higher gain (which leads to a lower output impedance in the cathode follower). The 6N13S seems to be a warmer and less sharp-sounding tube than the 5998. I'm not sure if this is due simply to the fact that it seems to act like a 6AS7 and yield a higher output impedance, which may interact differently with my headphones, or the fact that some have stated the tube has uneven curves, which may suggest higher levels of second harmonic distortion compared to the 5998 or even a "proper" 6AS7.
In any case, I think these are a good deal, as they can be had rather cheaply compared to even a good NOS 6AS7, let alone the WE 421a.
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They certainly are a good deal on ebay, even if quality is a 50/50 proposition. Avoid the guy from lithuania on ebay, his current stock is sketchy. The guy from bulgaria is fine though, I've had good luck with though he just has the 6H5C's...NOS,NIB
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Interesting. I have a 6N13S/6H13C tube in my Crack and my perception has been that electrically, it appears identical to the 6AS7 and 6080 tubes I have, but certainly different than the 5998. I know this because when experimenting, it acted the same way into a low-impedance load (Grados) as the 6AS7 family of tubes, whereas plugging in the 5998 led to a pronounced difference in bass and upper-midrange frequencies, presumably due to the higher gain (which leads to a lower output impedance in the cathode follower). The 6N13S seems to be a warmer and less sharp-sounding tube than the 5998. I'm not sure if this is due simply to the fact that it seems to act like a 6AS7 and yield a higher output impedance, which may interact differently with my headphones, or the fact that some have stated the tube has uneven curves, which may suggest higher levels of second harmonic distortion compared to the 5998 or even a "proper" 6AS7.
In any case, I think these are a good deal, as they can be had rather cheaply compared to even a good NOS 6AS7, let alone the WE 421a.
Not hearing either of the Russian tubes, I was comparing mainly the gain differences and, to a small degree, the description of the bass being apparently accentuated with the 6H5 compared to the 6H13. However, if I recall properly, when discussing the differences in bass response related to lower output impedance of the 5998, Paul J mentioned that the differences between the 6AS7 and 5998 were unlikely to do with the lower output impedance of the 5998 and rather due simply to the sonic difference between the tubes themselves. THis discusssion should be a page or 2 or 3 back in this very thread.
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Hi
Do any of you have experience with upscaleaudio? As far as i can see, they are cheaper and maybe a more reliable souce for tubes, than ebay? And I thougt that i may buy 2 really good tubes first, instead of buying many random tubes. I can properly not hold back anyways, but i can try ;) I know tubes are a matter of taste. But some tubes a generaly regarded better than others. As far as i have written they should be top notch. And i am a bit unsure if it is necessary to pick the highest grade or if it is beneficial to do so. I would assume that it depends on the amp. But any input on sound and general info is most welcome :)
Mullard CV4003 $30 to $50 depending on grade
http://www.upscaleaudio.com/products/Mullard-CV4003-%7B47%7D-12AU7-Vintage-New-Old-Stock.html
Mazda / Cifte 12AU7 $45 to $50
http://www.upscaleaudio.com/mazda-cifte-12au7/
And they can cryogenically treat them for 8$. That sounds cheap to.
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I bought my CV4003 from them, and several years ago my PrimaLuna Prologue II. Good service all around.
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Got my Telefunken 12AU7 in the other day. It seems to have tightened everything up over the Electro-Harmonix that came with my Crack. The bass response also seems a little bit punchier.
Have a Sylvania 6AS7G from the 40's on its way right now. Hopefully I'll enjoy it, and it will remove the buzz this 6080 gives :X
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Upsacle has been around a long time and had a very good reputation last time I checked, which was years ago. I did buy a few tubes from them back then and all was fine. That they are still around is probably a very positive sign.
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I've dealt with Upscale before and we will again. Good company.
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I'm a repeat offender at upscale. Will go back again! Try Brent Jesse as well...he knows his tubes and has a big selection...nothing cryo'd though.
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Bought a few tubes from Upscale, good NOS selection, fast shipping. Picked up 2 CBS Hytron 5814a-BPs, per Ironbut's advice on pg. 1 of this thread. Sounds great in the Crack. I recently bought some tubes from TC tubes, really happy with this transaction.
Cheers,
Shawn P.
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I like Tube World as well but Im selective (read: cheap). I like to browse through his used tubes, he has some pretty good prices at times on tested, good, used tubes. Got a couple 5998's from him a few months back for about 30 bucks each when ebay search kept coming up empty. That's my pet peeve on tubes I think. I gotta have spares of tubes I like and I gotta have them quick. Just seeing where prices have gone on some of the rare and not in high supply tubes over the past decade, it's probably not a bad pet peeve to have. But it tends to overstock me to the point of having more than I will ever use in several lifetimes when it comes to the less expensive tubes. Oh well.
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I have used Upscale Audio and Tube World. If you are looking for the right NOS tube for something special, Desmond/Laudanum hit the nail on the head, Tube World is great.
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I always thought tube world was good as well (top dollar though). Shop around! Don't rule out ebay but know what the brick-and-mortar guys are charging before you start bidding. Also, I think Brent Jesse is a straight shooter despite an apparent smear campaign by some (or someone I think). I meant to post his link above...
http://www.audiotubes.com/
PS, guess I better order those tubes from Upscale (linked above) before they are all gone!
PSS. Audiogon is a great place to get used and NOS tubes...better than ebay
http://www.audiogon.com/
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I get most of my tubes from ebay. Again, I find the deals and take the risk but have been ok on the vast majority. I have bought from Brent Jesse before but he aint cheap either. Tube World is top dollar on the highly sought stuff. But he does have some good deals on some used tubes here and there. I also got a couple old RCA OD3's from him for like 3 bucks each. You can trust that he tests and how he tests used tubes moreso than most on ebay, that's for sure. And he's great to deal with if there is a problem.
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I have to say I get most of mine (90%) on ebay as well. It's so very fun and highly addicting to hunt/discover new things, anticipate a good price and compete, and get packages from all over the world! And as you say, for the most part, I've had good luck as well. I'm so addicted that I buy way more than I should, and should be sent to tubes anonymous. I suspect all collectors go through this ebay addiction. But who can turn down an opportunity to get a smooth-plate telefunken NOS-NIB from Hamburg for $20! or a triple mica nickle plate Mazda from the south of France for little more than shipping x 2!
I've bought most of my audio gear on audiogon though...mostly because I cannot pay full price (or even half) for all these cables, tweeks and components.
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Does anyone have experience with CV4003's made by the English Electric Valve Co. Chelmsford? They look like the Mullard version. Do they sound as good though?
Thanks!!!
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Thank you all for the feedback.
I ordered the mullard and cifte tubes in platinum grade. But not with cryo threatment, i want to hear the original sound. May order some later to hear the difference
Know i just hope the crack will respond well to good tubes :)
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Got my Sylvania 6AS7G in today, and I still hear some noise, could it perhaps be from the driver tube? I'll have an RCA soon to compare it to. Also, it was making a noise outside of my headphones when heating up, which I'm supposing is just it heating up, but I want to make sure :P
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If it's the same noise, then yes, very possibly the driver. Are you sure that the external noise is originating from the tube and not the amp itself?
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Well, I went from annoying to bad. Looking under the hood, I found I didn't solder B7L or B8L, so I did. And now it won't power on -_- Back to the troubleshooting......
EDIT: Fixed it, and I swapped tubes again. The 6080 is significantly more noisy than this 6AS7, so I'll see if the RCA I have coming will remedy it.
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Sorry to repeat but I got bumped and rather urgent...
Does anyone have experience with CV4003's made by the English Electric Valve Co. Chelmsford? They look like the Mullard version. Do they sound as good though?
Anyone have anything by the English Electric Valve Co.? Perhaps rebranded mullards?
Thanks again!!!
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just threw a cheapo perma-test 12bh7 off ebay in my crack, initial impression is of a markedly more restrained and less fatiguing presentation, heavily compressed electronic music recordings are now much more listenable through my 'phones
ear fatigue is a big thing for me so I'm liking this so far
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How about a 6520 in an non-speadball Crack? I don't see it on the list, but it appears to be an alternative.
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6520 is - supposedly - a well balanced 6AS7G. The only one I ever saw was not at all well balanced between sections, so caveat emptor, but it should be otherwise identical to a 6AS7G.
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Thanks Paul. Sorry for the elementary question, but this imbalance translates to a stereo imbalance between the headphones drivers?
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Because the Crack output is a cathode follower, the gain difference will be much smaller than any difference in mu or gm (tube parameters). All tubes will have some difference in gain due to manufacturing variations, which though possibly audible are much much smaller than differences among solid-state devices. This is one of the things that makes it possible to forgo negative feedback in tube devices.
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Hi! Anybody have any opinions on Valvo 12au7's...not so much the 30 degree getters, which I hear are similar to telefunkens.
Thanks in advance.
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Hi all,
I am enjoying my E80CC very much. Juicy sounding, like an old english radio, and very detailed/clear. Percussion and wind Instruments are grand with this tube. Soundstage nearly as good...or maybe as good, as the Mullard CV4003...
Had a question though, I see the E80CC's advertised as both replacements for 12au7's and in yet other ads, as replacements for 12ax7's. Can the later be true? If so I'll try them in my phono stage as well...
Thanks in advance!
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They are lying. E80CC takes twice the heater current of either 12AX7 or 12AU7, and has a gain of 27, not very close to 100 or 17 respectively. It will "work" in some circuits, that is sound will come out, but not the way the designer intended. In some cases it can do some damage. I think this has been covered in another thread ...
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Thank you all for the feedback.
I ordered the mullard and cifte tubes in platinum grade. But not with cryo threatment, i want to hear the original sound. May order some later to hear the difference
Know i just hope the crack will respond well to good tubes :)
Langendorf,
I did the same. I just put the Mullard in after listening to the CIFTE for a couple of weeks. I really like the CIFTE, becuase of its detailed sound and nice exstention. I have only listened to the Mullard for a couple of hours, but this is a very nice sounding tube as well. It seems to have a warmer sound. Not sure which I like better, but can say that this has been the biggest improvement in sound.
What do you think of the Mullard and CIFTE tubes?
Now I'm looking at what I want to try in place of the 6080.
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Have an NOS RCA 12BH7 on the way, got a decent deal on it so couldn't resist :) What would the negatives of running it in a stock Crack be as opposed to the Speedball? Wirewounds perhaps?
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They are lying. E80CC takes twice the heater current of either 12AX7 or 12AU7, and has a gain of 27, not very close to 100 or 17 respectively. It will "work" in some circuits, that is sound will come out, but not the way the designer intended. In some cases it can do some damage. I think this has been covered in another thread ...
Thanks Paul, it sounds very different (better to my ears) with the speedball than it did before. Why is that? Please excuse if this was covered elsewhere...
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Because of the cathode follower output, Crack is relatively tolerant of "similar" tubes - I really should have said something about that, I was just focused on the broader claim that you can use one tube in place of another when they are that different. A lot of tube sellers do this and it really bugs me. But I apologize for getting off the Crack topic.
When you change the tube parameters, the operating points (voltages and currents) will normally change. The Speedball will eliminate the current differences, but the voltage differences may be larger. If you would post the voltages on the tubes, I can make some comments on why it might sound different - from a technical perspective of course. But there is more than simple technology at work in the way a tube sounds. If you hear a difference, there almost certainly is a difference!
What are you using for the output tube?
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Thanks Paul, I can see now why u might be peeved at that. I've seen other outlandish claims on e-bay as well. Down right entertaining - u guys just starting out should be very wary of the tube museum guy, why he's still up I just don't understand. Hope I won't get in trouble for that comment. Just check it out, the audiogon forum has allot on him, and his listing that I last saw (was it last week?) is another head scratcher.
Anyways,
I usually run a power/output tube-WE 421a...but when the E80CC was in I was running a svetlana 6H13 (I think they are similar, except that you can get 15 svetlana's for the price of 421a). I'm keeping that in while I do some heavy input tube rotations/comparisons for consistency. I'm about through this round and will put the WE-421a back in and start over again! Good thing there are only 2 tubes on this puppy.
PS: Now I'm having trouble swapping-out the bugle boy 7316....another winner <:-)
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Hi All,
Still loving my Speedballed Crack with my Beyer DT 880 600 ohm Manufaktur HPs (Meier Audio Corda StageDAC from PC).
Have been using an old CBA 7236 with a CBS 12BH7A. Decided to try some of my other tubes for a change.
Listening to a Mullard CV 4003 with a Russian Winged C (OTK) 6H13C. Very nice combination.
Does anyone know anything about "running in" tubes ? Is it fact or fallacy ?
All the best,
John T (from Downunder).
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The known technical aspects of "running in" (we call it burning in - but then, we cal it "English" too!) have to do with the cathode.
The cathode is fairly complex and dynamic at a molecular level, and was only beginning to be understood when transistors supplanted tubes and research lost interest. Two things are known though:
1) the cathode must be formed. This is done in the factory, and consists of running some current through it; sometimes at slightly elevated temperature. It normally takes some 50-100 hours. Supposedly it brings or exposes individual barium and strontium atoms at the surface. Also, some trace elements of the substrate alloy diffuse into the coating. (In fact, a bit of silicon in the nickel substrate is known to speed the forming but shorten the working lfe of the cathode.)
2) many kinds of cathode will form a resistive layer between the substrate and the coating if they are operated for a long time with no current. This layer limits the emission, and adds noise. It is plausible that it can be reversed by running some current.
I am not aware of any studies of long-term storage, but since cathodes are known to be chemically active through their life it seems reasonable that the would require re-forming if they have sat idle for decades.
For what it's worth, I measured some of the earliest modern 300Bs (I think they were Sovteks, the first production run) a long time ago and found that their cathodes were not initially capable of providing their proper current. After 24 hours they were significantly improved, and after several days they met their specs easily, and I ran one pair of them for several years with no problem.
Also for what it's worth, remember that the getter, which traps ions to maintain the vacuum, only works when it's hot. A tube that has been idle for an extended period may have become slightly gassy, and operating at temperature would allow the getter to resolve the problem.
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VERY informative Paul!!
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Thanks very much Paul. Good to see some technical explaination.
I had heard references to old tubes getting "gassy" previously.
Cheers,
John T.
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Hi all, I just changed from a 5998 to a GEC 6AS7 brown base. The GEC sounds good, but I am satisfied with using either one of the tubes. They both sound great in there own way. Suggest either one.
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The GEC is warming up now and sounding better all the time. It was NOS so it may take some time, the first post about it was only about 10 minutes in the amp. I have to do some direct comparisons, but the GEC 6AS7 Brown Base sounds like the one I keep in it. Nice sounding tube if you can find one. Took me months.
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There are about 16 listed on ebay. Most (Pan Getters) well over $200! I'd be interested in hearing your impressions. Have you a 421a to compare with? is yours a pan or halo getter?
Thanks
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Hi,
I quick question. What would be better on crack with speedball telefunken ECC82 or Mullard 12AU7?
Thank you.
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That's a big question! Which mullard 12au7? The CV4003 is the most linear of the mullards with amazing staging and depth, though to my ears the lower midrange seems a tad muted sometimes. They are also resonably priced if you shop around (30-50 bucks). A mullard long-plate, D getter is fantastic in other ways...and my Mullard long-plate, double post halo getter is one of my favs.
The telefunken smooth plate is also a favorite. can seem somewhat "thin" compared to the mullard but has amazing hi-end sparkle, clarity air and detail, and great soundstage too. You really need to get both!!!! but if push came to shove...wow...I have 4 of each (cv4003 and smooth plate Teles)...do the Telefunkens first, then get a CV4003!?
PS...There are others out there (of coarse), like 50's bugle boys, siemens chrome plates, and amperex 7136's that you may like even more!!!
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I have been using the Mullard CV4003 and Mazda/Cifte 12AU7. I like the Mullard a lot nice full 3 dimensional sound, but I have been spending more time with the Mazda. I find the sound more linear and natural to my ears, but I could live with either. I think they are both great tubes.
Now I want to see about a different power triode.
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I have been using the Mullard CV4003 and Mazda/Cifte 12AU7. I like the Mullard a lot nice full 3 dimensional sound, but I have been spending more time with the Mazda. I find the sound more linear and natural to my ears, but I could live with either. I think they are both great tubes.
Now I want to see about a different power triode.
I have a Cifte 12AU7 comming. Can't wait. What power triode are u using?
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I'm still using the GE 6080 that came with the kit. Not sure what to try next. I have been looking at the RCA 6as7g black plate, but really want to get the 5998. I'm keeping my eyes open for a good deal on either.
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Unless things have changed drastically in the last 8 or 9 months, the RCA 6AS7's should be pretty plentiful and inexpensive. I picked up a couple NOS back then and I dont think they were more than $15, if that. I also picked up a 2 or 3 more used under 10 bucks (GE Jan and RCA). One used RCA was a bit weak but aside from that ... they seemed pretty plentiful and were inexpensive. All were from ebay where I dont mind buying and taking the chance if they dont cost much.
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For what it's worth, and based on the specs, the 6080-WA, WB, and WC are longer-life, vibration resistant, and better balanced between sections. I've seen specs from Raytheon and Tung-Sol but don't know who else might have made them.
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I have a Mullard 6080 on the way. Can't wait.
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Nice choice! Can't wait to hear your impressions, especially when compared with stock.
BTW, My crack came with a Bendix. It is one solid tank of a toob, and sounds solid and detailed (with my 57 Mullard 12au7).
But a little harsh and fatiguing on top at moderate to high volumes. Maybe a bit thin too...?
Anyone compare 6080's much? would love to hear what others might have heard when comparing the stock Bendix with a
6080WA JAN Tung Sol, nickel base vs. GB6080 Sylvania Gold Brand, ceramic base, or 6080 Genalex CV2984 military type, or any other
6080!
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Hiya All,
Have just tried a Philips Miniwatt 12AU7 (no idea how old it is, or what condition) with my Russian Winged C 6H13C (OTK 76).
The getter looks sorta like a small split keyring on an angle.
This Philips tube sounds great. Preferring it to my Mullard CV 4003.
It's very slightly brighter, but sounds more open and more "real" to my ears.
Seems to be more "real" detail in the sound of acoustic bass (ie texture is clearer).
Nice tube.
Cheers,
John T
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Hi, Is the getter at a 30 degree angle? Might be a Valvo in disguise ?? Which are highly regarded and similar sonics to telefunkens.
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Hi, Is the getter at a 30 degree angle? Might be a Valvo in disguise ?? Which are highly regarded and similar sonics to telefunkens.
Hi John,
It looks like this:
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi204.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb272%2Fraksasajohn%2FaaaaPro%2FPhotos%2FHi%2520Fi%2FBH%2520CRACK%2FPhilips-Miniwatt-12AU7-001.jpg&hash=1e6359b3eef1d2fdca7471897cdbca64f595fa5e)
I got it with a batch of other 12AU7s (Tungsrams, a GE, an EH & a Sylvania 12AU7A) from a guitarist mate who builds / restores valve guitar amps.
He got them off some old techo guy who didn't want them anymore. My mate is into old Fender circuits - they don't use 12AU7s so he gave them to me.
Also included an old Mullard, which was found to be stuffed when used in my Crack so it got tossed (https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi204.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb272%2Fraksasajohn%2FSmilies%2Fcry_1.gif&hash=7a84ee03e0bbef2bdbbfc19affb87b714a5eb3dd).
Listening to these albums tonight (actually Sunday morning in Oz):
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi204.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb272%2Fraksasajohn%2FaaaaPro%2FPhotos%2FMUSIC%2FFolder-1.jpg&hash=7470a38bea6afb1a656595724a07a721adb2e382) (https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi204.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb272%2Fraksasajohn%2FaaaaPro%2FPhotos%2FMUSIC%2FFolder.jpg&hash=6f069094a9cd860d59c9e3f8b66cb79798eb0ad0)
The Mahler esp. sounds sublime. Very sweet on the strings, beautiful natural ambience bloom on the horns, and non-bright detail everywhere.
0 FLAC 44.1 -> FooBar WASAPI -> USB input of Meier Audio StageDAC -> BH Crack, via Blue Jeans top of the line Belden I/C -> Beyer DT 880 600 ohm Manufakturs.
Crack has TKD pot, Kimber input wire and upgraded RCAs.
Also just put a Mundorf .01 uf Supreme silver/gold/oil cap on the last PS electro in the Crack as a bypass.
Just coz I had it lyin' around (forgot what it was meant for).
No idea if it really does anything, but the amp is sounding great to me at the moment.
Cheers,
John
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Sweet! Looks like a 45 (not 30 degree, I meant 45) angle from here. I keep getting outbid on em at ebay. try try again!
A little off post but hows the mundorf workin out ? much effect?
PS, I'm envious of your picture posting abilities...
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Sweet! Looks like a 45 (not 30 degree, I meant 45) angle from here. I keep getting outbid on em at ebay. try try again!
Here's a better shot for working out angle - looks like 45 degrees to me:
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi204.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb272%2Fraksasajohn%2FaaaaPro%2FPhotos%2FHi%2520Fi%2FBH%2520CRACK%2FPhilips-Miniwatt-12AU7-002.jpg&hash=995e1d2707eefaf4bf58d7874bb4afbbda0697dd)
A little off post but hows the mundorf workin out ? much effect?
TBH, I don't know if I'll ever know. All I know the amp is sounding great at present. (https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi204.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb272%2Fraksasajohn%2FSmilies%2Fredface.gif&hash=1122a9a28e2d1698a691faece008d93cda37c602)
I only did it coz I had the part lyin' around, and I thought it couldn't hurt as someone else tried a similar thing and thought it improved things.
PS, I'm envious of your picture posting abilities...
That's very kind of you to say so. I use Photobucket for image hosting.
The valve shots are mine, the album covers are just the folder images I got from an online DB that is used by my ripping S/W (dBPoweramp).
I just use a DSLR in Auto (coz I'm lazy). Also use graphics S/W for cropping, sharpening and adjusting.
Cheers,
John
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Which tube the input or power tube make the most impact on sound? I've played around with the input one. Tried a Mullard, Amperex Bugle Boy, RCA and stock. They all sound very, good.
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Lextek,
I have not had much Chance to test a lot of different tubes with the amp, but it seems to me that the 12AU7 seems to make the biggest difference. My amp came with an EH 12AU7, which I believe is the standard tube and a Westinghouse 6080. These tubes produce a very nice sound that blows most headphone amps away. The first tube I changed was the EH 12AU7 since I have used it in my Foreplay III and found that it made a big difference using a good NOS tube. For the Crack I have tried the Mullard 4003 and CITFE 12AU7. Both are great tubes and sound great, but for some reason that I can't explain I've been using the CITFE. I think that I find it to be a little cleaner sounding. What I mean is that to my ears it does not seem to put any extra emphasis on the sound. It is a little flatter across the frequency spectrum that appeals to me. Don't get me Wrong I could live very easily with either of these tubes.
As for the 6080, I have only heard 2 6080s. The Westinghouse and now a Mullard. I like the Mullard a little better, but it is not by much, and could be that I just got it in and it is new. The one thing that I know for sure is that upgrading the EH 12AU7 is going to give you the biggest improvement.
That is my two cents so take it for what it is worth.
Brad
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I was looking around for tubes and came across this site http://www.vacuumtubes.com/12au7.html (http://www.vacuumtubes.com/12au7.html) and they say that a 7730 is a replacement for the 12au7 but after a quick search here I found nothing and it is not listed as a drop in on OP. Is it or not? I'm just starting with tubes really and don't know how to judge if it (7730) will work in the Crack. Thanks.
Peter
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I wouldnt swear on it but I believe that the 7730 is a sub. This was a tube that I has some interest in about 10 years ago when I first built a couple components that used 12AU7's. Based on the relatively few listening impressions I did find on these tubes, I decided not to chase them. Doesnt meant they are poor, just didnt seem to be my cup of tea. If I recall correctly, they were pretty hard to find back then, I imagine it's harder now.
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If I recall correctly, they were pretty hard to find back then, I imagine it's harder now.
Oh man, I don't even mention publicly what tubes I like anymore. Next thing I know they are unobtainium.
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There are about 16 listed on ebay. Most (Pan Getters) well over $200! I'd be interested in hearing your impressions. Have you a 421a to compare with? is yours a pan or halo getter?
Thanks
GEC 6AS7 A1834, I think I should of said the tube was hard to find on an auction. I paid a lot less than the dealer prices, 60 dollars. Its a little cleaner(less distortion) to my ear and the sound stage sounds deeper, more 3d to me. It also still retains the punch of the 5998. I noticed that others like the Russian ones, sounded clear, but feeble, less punch, than the 5998's. Sorry it took so long to answer.
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I would like to thank Bottlehead for this amp. I have modified it quite a bit, but the kit gave me somewhere to start. The only reason I modified was because of the tubes I already have. A bunch of 12sn7's. Now that I have about 7-800 hours on it, it sounds great. I am not disappointed in the least. Also saved a bunch of money over what this would of cost from someone like Manley.
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I just got some RCA 6AS7G black plates and on initial listening I find it to be a nice improvement over the 6080. I want to do some more listening, but for the price it seems like a no brainier.
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I just got some RCA 6AS7G black plates and on initial listening I find it to be a nice improvement over the 6080. I want to do some more listening, but for the price it seems like a no brainier.
A Raytheon 6080 was included with my kit. It's a nice sounding tube but I too immediately preferred the RCA 6AS7. I also have a GE JAN labeled 6AS7 with copper shield (?) that sounds good too. It's a smaller ST shaped bottle and that copper looks really cool/different. But I thought that the RCA was a bit better. Still running the 5998 though with a Sylvania 12BH7. I think it's a nice combo. I have a couple of the Russian 6H13's coming. They were pretty cheap and I am curious as to how they sound. Should have them in another week or so.
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I'm running the 5998 with a Mullard 4003 and like the combo. I tried the 5998 with a CIFTE 12AU7 and did not care for it. The CIFTE worked well with the 6080 though. I would like to get a CBS 5814A or even a 12BH7.
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Brad, I think you would be happy with the CBS Hytron 5814a, I have one in my crack and my Cornet2 phonostage. It mates well with the 5998. It seems to smooth out some of the rough edges from the 5998s extra gain. I ordered the Eros, it uses the 12BH7 as a regulator, my friends that build guitar amps all said their favorite is the Sylvania 12BH7A from the 50s. While I am waiting on the Eros maybe I'll roll it into the Crack and give it a listen. If you go for the CBS make sure to get the red label version.
Cheers,
Shawn
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Brad, I think you would be happy with the CBS Hytron 5814a, I have one in my crack and my Cornet2 phonostage. It mates well with the 5998. It seems to smooth out some of the rough edges from the 5998s extra gain.
Shawn,
Now that you mention it, that is what I thing was happening with the CIFTE. The Mullard seems to tame the 5998. I will has to give the CBS 5814A and Sylvania 12BH7 a try.
By the way I put the RCA 6AS7G and CIFTE back in and they pair nicely together.
Brad
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Got two 6H13C's yesterday. Grainy (maybe grungy is a better term) up top and mids are a bit recessed ... compared to 5998 which is clear as a bell. Pretty decent bass though. Both sound the same so it's not a bad tube. These are NOS so they havent had any burn in. Well, maybe 8 hours on one of them now. Gave a quick listen again late last night and it's still about the same. Tried a few different drivers 12AU7's and variants as well. Im gonna give these a bit more time but Im pretty sure they arent my cup of tea. I could happily live with any of the 6080's and 6AS7's that I have ... despite the 5998's being my favs. And the few NOS that I have sounded good right out of the box. These Russian tubes either need more burn-in or they are just kinda blah, atleast in my system. Of course, YMMV.
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Got a Phillips Mini Watt ECC 82 today. Very nice sounding tube. Seems the bottom end is a little tighter and a small amount of improvement on the top end compaired to the EH 12AU7. Have a NOS RCA 6AS7 and Tung Sol 5998 on the way.
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Got two 6H13C's yesterday. Grainy (maybe grungy is a better term) up top and mids are a bit recessed ... compared to 5998 which is clear as a bell. Pretty decent bass though. Both sound the same so it's not a bad tube. These are NOS so they havent had any burn in. Well, maybe 8 hours on one of them now. Gave a quick listen again late last night and it's still about the same. Tried a few different drivers 12AU7's and variants as well. Im gonna give these a bit more time but Im pretty sure they arent my cup of tea. I could happily live with any of the 6080's and 6AS7's that I have ... despite the 5998's being my favs. And the few NOS that I have sounded good right out of the box. These Russian tubes either need more burn-in or they are just kinda blah, atleast in my system. Of course, YMMV.
I have one of those 6H13C's in my stash, and can confirm your observations: they sound much warmer and grungier than a 5998 or even the usual 6080 that came with the kit. It's perhaps a good tube to balance a driver with a hot top end (like some 12BH7's or the RCA clear-top 12AU7), but otherwise, I find it rather lackluster compared to the 5998. Too bad those are getting so expensive as of late, though.....
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I should report that I now have an NOS Amperex (Holland) E80cc tube in the Crack at the moment. I like what I hear, but I can see where this tube might have its detractors: it's extended and very, very clean, almost to the point of sounding solid-state. When looking up THD figures on the internet for various 12AU7 variants, this seems to be verified by others as well: it's perhaps one of the lowest distortion small-signal triodes obtainable.
I will say that this tube has the best bass of any driver I've tried so far in the Crack.
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I posted Crack measurements eons ago and I can confirm that with the E80CC in the circuit "all" distortion disappeared. Not really, of course, but the difference was very significant. There is still a pleasant balance between the 2nd and all the higher harmonics in the distortion spectrum.
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I remember seeing those great graphs you posted, grufiti - seems my ears would agree with your measurements. What's interesting is that as the distortion has been lowered in my amp (through better tubes and the CCS boards), I've experienced a more "solid state" type of impression of the sound - dryness, for lack of a better term - but on the other hand, there's still a realism that has evaded any solid-state circuit I've used or built. My theory is that the lack of NFB is responsible for the more open sound, and that perhaps a little bit of second and third harmonic distortion (say, on the order of a tenth of one percent) is "just enough" to enrich certain frequencies and give them a bit of heft and extended transient decay. With a good tube in the driver seat, the Crack seems to hit that sweet spot really well!
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I'm inclined to agree that the proportion of 2nd to higher harmonics in an SE circuit with ZNFB could flesh out ( i.e. enhance) the tone of the original recording, but I don't see that it could be responsible for the higher resolution of the transient decay that gives one that sense of space and the venue acoustic that SE does so well. I think that is not an element related to harmonics but rather some very small signal temporal info that is somehow lost by the insertion of NFB. Of course others argue that it's simply microphony of the tubes that creates that sense of decay.
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I'm inclined to agree that the proportion of 2nd to higher harmonics in an SE circuit with ZNFB could flesh out ( i.e. enhance) the tone of the original recording, but I don't see that it could be responsible for the higher resolution of the transient decay that gives one that sense of space and the venue acoustic that SE does so well. I think that is not an element related to harmonics but rather some very small signal temporal info that is somehow lost by the insertion of NFB. Of course others argue that it's simply microphony of the tubes that creates that sense of decay.
I agree, but I still wonder about the role of harmonic content. NFB kills spatial cues, but it also reduces lower-order distortion, no?
For small, trailing-off sounds, like the last shimmers of a cymbal or high-hat, it would seem that boosting harmonic content (overtones) would raise the likelihood that the ear would still hear the sound where it otherwise would already have have disappeared under the noise floor or below the threshold of hearing. I've read somewhere that second and third harmonics are supposed to make things sound louder to the ear than the same pitch presented as a pure tone; some have claimed this is why SET amps sound louder and more dynamic than other topologies, watt for watt. The real test would be to see if a class-A solid-state amp with no NFB (like a single-ended MOSFET) produces the same effect, given the presence of a monotonically-decaying harmonic spectrum similar to that of open-loop triodes.
In any case, there seems to be no really solid explanation for why tubes sound so good! And the glow of the heaters just adds to the ambience....
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You won't find a "class-A solid-state amp with no NFB" unless you make one yourself. Solid state devices have a current output, meaning high impedance, meaning no damping factor. The either use NFB explicitly, or they are emitter or source followers - lots of negative feebback, even though it's local and often enough not acknowledged. Just sayin' ...
Negative feedback actually increases higher order distortion, especially large amounts of it. Some think this is why is kills some of the life in music. (Yes I know that "life" is not a well-defined technical term!)
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I have been listening to the Crack with a 5998 and 4003 and it sounds very good. The only thing I don't like is that it does not use a lot of the volume control, maybe 10%. Even with the 6080 and 6AS7Gs I don't need a lot of increase in volume. Not sure if I should just leave it that way or add resistors to the input. I'm not a big on adding anything to the signal path though.
My source is a modded Squeezebox2, so it only puts out about 1v. Also, I'm using the stock potentiometer, but it seems to track well at the lowest volumes.
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I have been listening to the Crack with a 5998 and 4003 and it sounds very good. The only thing I don't like is that it does not use a lot of the volume control, maybe 10%. Even with the 6080 and 6AS7Gs I don't need a lot of increase in volume. Not sure if I should just leave it that way or add resistors to the input. I'm not a big on adding anything to the signal path though.
My source is a modded Squeezebox2, so it only puts out about 1v. Also, I'm using the stock potentiometer, but it seems to track well at the lowest volumes.
Which headphones are you using?
In case you decide to attenuate the input ... This is from the Goldpoint site for their stepped attenuators, but would work with the pot just as well ... http://www.goldpt.com/mods.html
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I have been listening to the Crack with a 5998 and 4003 and it sounds very good. The only thing I don't like is that it does not use a lot of the volume control, maybe 10%. Even with the 6080 and 6AS7Gs I don't need a lot of increase in volume. Not sure if I should just leave it that way or add resistors to the input. I'm not a big on adding anything to the signal path though.
I don't see any issue whatsoever with something else in the signal path. A good quality metal film resistor will impart far less audible effect than even the best pot.
But it is not a good idea to just jack up the input impedance too far above the stock 100kohm. My solution was to use a 50kohm pot (TKD 2CP-2511) with a 50kohm resistor (PRP 1W) in series, giving the same 100kohm input impedance for the amp. This gives about 6dB of pre-attenuation.
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I'm using HD-650s.
Thanks for the link. I have to take a look and see what good resisters I have to use.
Brad
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I'm using HD-650s.
Thanks for the link. I have to take a look and see what good resisters I have to use.
Brad
I just thought of something. Probably just a shot in the dark here but ... the stock pot, I believe is an Alpha pot. Alpha makes both linear and log taper 100K dual pots. If Im not mistaken (and I may be), a linear taper pot will get "loud" very quickly compared to a log/audio taper ... most within the first 50% of it's range I think. I dont know how sensitive the HD-650's are compared to my 250 ohm Beyers, I beleve that they are moreso. But using a 5998 in my amp and Beyerdynamic 250 ohm phones, Im usually at or below 11 O'Clock (giver or take, depending) but that is with a 3.5 volt source (the Tjoeb CD player). 11 O'Clock is much closer to 50% or the pots range than 10% that you are using. So, Im wondering if it's possible that a linear taper pot was accidentally included with your Crack kit. Again, just a shot in the dark. But only having 10% of the knob to work with seems kinda extreme. There may be an identifier on the pot casing. Maybe something like "A" for audio or "L" for linear ??? Might be worth checking into just to make sure. Maybe the experts here can chime in.
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I can only comment that when this idea was first proposed we checked our 100K pot stock and they were all log taper. Not that few linears couldn't have gotten mixed in, but we couldn't find any.
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Like I said, a shot in the dark :-)
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Longest thread, by number of posts, on the board.
I think that shows the enthusiasm for the Crack, or the level of addiction. Either way!
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I have a Ratshack Alps 100k stereo potentiometer that I could through in and see if it makes a difference. Everything sounds good I just want a little more adjustment. In the future I want to upgrade the pot, but want to wait.
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Brad,
If I am following you you need to get more turn from your volume pot. It gets loud too early, right?
If so then changing the pot, or the resistance of the pot will not make a difference in the range of travel or resolution in the volume control. If you put in a nice $4 resistor before the existing pot it will make a difference.
For instance, if you had a 10k (audio taper) volume control at 9:00 you will have the same volume in your headsets as you do now with the 100k volume control.
To make a difference you have to waste some of the incoming voltage with a series resistor.
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Grainger,
I have room to change the volume to a listenable level, so I'm not that concerned. I was just wondering if others were experiencing the same thing. Now if the problem was that as soon as raised the volume it was too loud I would have a major issue.
If I do feel like I need to attenuate the volume I will probably use the Goldpoint solution that Desmond posted earlier.
Brad
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By the way I put the RCA 6AS7G and CIFTE back in and they pair nicely together.
Thanks to Brad . I too , am enjoying this pairing with a Bifrost and the HD650
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s1,
Yes the CIFTE is a very nice driver, but I think that the Mullard 4003 box plate is a little better. It adds a little more to the mid range. I have to say that the drive seems to make the biggest difference in sound as compared to any of the power tubes I have tried, i.e. 6080, 6AS7G, or 5998. I want to try a couple of different drives and see what they sound like.
Brad
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s1,
Yes the CIFTE is a very nice driver, but I think that the Mullard 4003 box plate is a little better. It adds a little more to the mid range. I have to say that the drive seems to make the biggest difference in sound as compared to any of the power tubes I have tried, i.e. 6080, 6AS7G, or 5998. I want to try a couple of different drives and see what they sound like.
Brad
+1 on this. I'm really enjoying my combination of the Speedball, RCA 6AS7G, Mullard 4003 & HD600s. I'm still frequently breaking into a smile while listening to something I haven't played before through my Crack.
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Just to add to the many variants of the Crack out there, I'm now running a 7236 in the power socket, and an E80CC in the driver position, with 330uF low-ESR Panasonic electrolytics bypassed by some 1uF Solens I had laying around. This arrangement seems to work very well into my low-ish impedance AKG's (K702; 62 ohm). The sound is very clean and well-controlled, with low apparent distortion.
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Angelo, so you like the E80CC as a driver in the Crack, what brand do you have? A friend offered a couple of phillips mini-watts, maybe I should take him up on that.
Cheers,
Shawn
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Angelo, so you like the E80CC as a driver in the Crack, what brand do you have? A friend offered a couple of phillips mini-watts, maybe I should take him up on that.
Cheers,
Shawn
It's an Amperex tube, made in Holland, per the label. It also says "premium quality" and has gold-plated pins.
I recently swapped in a 1950's Sylvania 12BH7, a 2009 Electro-Harmonix 12BH7, a 1960's 5963, and a 1960's RCA clear-top 12AU7 to see if what I am hearing is just my imagination. It's not. The E80CC has, by far, the deepest bass, biggest soundstage, and most extended treble of all. Not a bad investment!
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It's an Amperex tube, made in Holland, per the label. It also says "premium quality" and has gold-plated pins.
I recently swapped in a 1950's Sylvania 12BH7, a 2009 Electro-Harmonix 12BH7, a 1960's 5963, and a 1960's RCA clear-top 12AU7 to see if what I am hearing is just my imagination. It's not. The E80CC has, by far, the deepest bass, biggest soundstage, and most extended treble of all. Not a bad investment!
According to the list on page 1, E80CC is 'sort-of-drop-in'. Does that mean with speedball installed it's good to go without any other circuit mods? I'm about to go 7236 powertube + cleartop 12AU7 driver, but this might be a nice alternative...
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According to the list on page 1, E80CC is 'sort-of-drop-in'. Does that mean with speedball installed it's good to go without any other circuit mods? I'm about to go 7236 powertube + cleartop 12AU7 driver, but this might be a nice alternative...
Check back on page 14 for starters, Paul J addresses the E80cc thereabouts.
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I read Paul's comments, although that part of the thread seems to deviate away from being Crack-specific, or at least is inconclusive.
It sounds like a few people have used them with success, I'm just wondering if they modded their circuits to accommodate the spec differences of the E80CC or not.
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I read Paul's comments, although that part of the thread seems to deviate away from being Crack-specific, or at least is inconclusive.
It sounds like a few people have used them with success, I'm just wondering if they modded their circuits to accommodate the spec differences of the E80CC or not.
+1 I too would be interested to find out it there is any modification required . I have the speedball upgrade.
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re: E80CC ...I noticed impoved sound with the speedball installed using this tube...at least to me. It was juicier (tube-like?) and more detailed. I like it. But I still prefer most of the older euro, high dollar 12au7's...for the moment.
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Since I've had this built I've been using the Sylvania 6080WC and an Electro-Harmonix ECC82 that doc sent me. I had an RCA 6AS7G and a Tung-SOl 12AU7W that I didn't like as well. I received a Rohre Siemens E82CC and I'm not sure but I think it is brand new, not NOS. Could be wrong, don't know enough to really tell. Still, it has brought out the bass to where the RCA now sounds great with this little wonder. In fact now the RCA sounds better than the Sylvania. I'm not impressed with the bass response with the Tung-Sol or the Elctro-Harmonix with the RCA so the 6080 sounds better to me with those two.
But I am rocking to this Siemens E82CC and RCA 6AS7G sound.
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I just got the CBS 5814A in and really like it with the 5998. I like it better then the Mullard 4003 so far. This seems to be the best combo with the 5998 that I have heard. I will have to give it a try with the 6AS7G and 6080s in have.
I think the next tube I want to try is the Sylvania 12BH7.
The amp has been so much fun.
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I just got a sylvania 12bh7 and I like it ALLOT better than the RCA I have. Better in all respects, including price...
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Just rolled in a NOS RCA 12AU7 clear top. Good sounding tube with the RCA 6AS7G. Really brought out the treble and loss a little on the bottom end compaired to the EH and Phillips Mini watt. I'll give this one a little time but still think the Mini watt is my favorite so far. Want to try a 12BH7 and E80cc but keep getting out bid. Some of the prices are just crazy.
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Received the Phillips Miniwatt SQ E80CC tubes from my bud today, really like this tube in the Crack. It mates well with the 5998. Produced a small increase in gain. Probably the largest change in sound of any variant I have tried, all the rest seem very similar with small changes evident. Although this tube has high detail and resolution I don't find it cold and analytical at all. The Crack has an easier time driving the AKG K702s with this tube installed, and the HD650s really sound great. Thanks to Dr. Toobz for the tip.
Cheers,
Shawn
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Just rolled in a NOS RCA 12AU7 clear top. Good sounding tube with the RCA 6AS7G. Really brought out the treble and loss a little on the bottom end compaired to the EH and Phillips Mini watt. I'll give this one a little time but still think the Mini watt is my favorite so far. Want to try a 12BH7 and E80cc but keep getting out bid. Some of the prices are just crazy.
Ive got a bunch of the Rca 12AU7 cleartops years ago. I really liked them in one piece of gear and based on that, assumed they were great tubes so I stocked up (well maybe 10 or 12 stashed away). That ended up being the only piece of gear I use them in. Tried them in Crack but not my favs. with either 6AS7 or 5998 (although I thought better with the former). They catch some heat now as way overrated (Joes tube lore pumped them up years ago) but I still think they are a good tube in the right application and in Crack, would be dependent on the source and your phones and your ears, etc. etc. etc.
Only thing I would like to try is an E80CC but not so much as to pay the asking prices Ive seen so far. But no rush, I am very happy with several of the driver tubes I have for Crack. Plus, the relatively small fun-money budget has some wants other than small signal tubes right now :-)
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I have a pair of Tungsram E80CC's coming out of the Ukraine. Don't know how they sound but the price was right. I'm too cheap to pay a $100.00 per tube. We had what I called the Junk Store with bins of old tubes your pick 2 for a buck. The hunt for a 12BH7 continues.
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I have a pair of Tungsram E80CC's coming out of the Ukraine. Don't how they sound but the price was right. I'm too cheap to pay a $100.00 per tube. We had what I called the Junk Store with bins of old tubes your pick 2 for a buck. The hunt for a 12BH7 continues.
I guess it depends on what you want to pay, a bit of luck and even what risk is acceptable to you. Liking the 12BH7's, I recently picked up a Hammond labeled tube as a spare. Clearly Sylvania manufactured. Oval grey plates, O getter. Probably 1960's. All of 12 bucks shipped. It was listed as a used, strong testing tube. Good lettering. Probably a pull and worth the risk for me at only 12 bucks. Keep looking, you'll find one.
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just took delivery of a '60s Sylvania 7236, Sylvania 12BH7A and cleartop RCA 12AU7A to help burn in my new beyer T1s... life is good ;)
One thing that's giving me a headache though is the high gain of the setup (especially the 12BH7s if I'm not mistaken). The T1s are 600ohm, but I guess they must be fairly sensitive with it. I replaced the stock volume pot with a TKD 100K stepped pot, and my DAC has a not-especially-hot output of 2.25V RMS, but with the T1s the loudness of the steps goes something like:
1: quiet
2: normal(ish)
3: loud
4: very loud
5-21: unusable
...somewhat short of ideal. Is it acceptable to put fixed resistors before the pot to bring down the input a bit? If so, does anyone know the particulars of doing this?
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It should be the 7236 that is the source of the higher gain (or less loss of gain) compared to 6080 or 6AS7. I believe the 12BH7 is about the same as the 12AU7 or close.
I dont have much experience with them but I never thought that stepped attenuators would be a great idea for heaphone amp unless they have a lot of steps.
Anyway, this link from the Goldpoint site should take care of it .... http://www.goldpt.com/mods.html
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It should be the 7236 that is the source of the higher gain (or less loss of gain) compared to 6080 or 6AS7. I believe the 12BH7 is about the same as the 12AU7 or close.
I dont have much experience with them but I never thought that stepped attenuators would be a great idea for heaphone amp unless they have a lot of steps.
Anyway, this link from the Goldpoint site should take care of it .... http://www.goldpt.com/mods.html
good call, thanks ;)
I have a DACT stepper in my balanced beta22 which works a treat with 24 steps, but then the amp is configured for low gain, and the 'phones aren't super sensitive (LCD2). I believe the main advantage is balance and tracking across the 4 channels when using tight-tolerance SMD resistors. Less of an issue in a two-channel amp though, I just liked the look of the TKD when I was looking for a new one, I think the steps are mechanical anyway, someone might correct me, but I think it's a normal pot underneath.
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You arent the only one using a stepped attenuator in Crack so it must work fine for those using them. I would think that the pre-attenuation that I linked would take care of your touchy control, or atleast help. I know that I am always just nudging that Crack volume knob, so I figured a stepped atten. wouldnt be a great choice for me personally. I guess a lot of it would have to do with how hot your source is, how sensitive your phones are and how tweaky someone is when it comes to the volume. And probably a handful of other things I missed. :-)
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Gh0st,
The problem with the volume control can be helped using a series resistor. If you had posted before buying the TDK attenuator I would have suggested a 25k attenuator and either a 50k or 70k series resistor. This allows you to shed the extra input voltage.
Since this is not really a tube rolling issue you might start a separate thread.
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thanks Grainger, I think I'll just hook up a couple of resistors by way of pre-attenuation (-10db should do the trick). The only inconvenience is the obscure values of the resistors needed to maintain the 100k input impedance, but I should be able to get hold of some.
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gh0st, the resistor values dont have to be exact, just get them as close as available.
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OCD for resistor values is an obscure condition, but that doesn't mean it's not real ;)
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I wrote a few pages back about the volume of the amp being high then I wanted to allow me to better adjust the volume. I'm not sure if I'm going to change the potentiometer to something with a lower resistance but my have to give it a try and see. I think I my have a 50 ohm alps that I can try and see if I get my flexibility with it.
By the way I'm really enjoying the CBS 5814A with the different power tubes I have. (T-S 5998, RCA 6AS7G, and Mullard 6080). I have a Sylvania 12BH7 on the way. If figured it was cheap enough at $15 to give it a try.
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I through the Alps 50k pot in and it seems the I have more flexibility with the volume. I do have one problem and that is when I turn the volume all the way down I still have some sound coming out of the left channel. I will look at the wiring and make sure that there are no wires touching. Other wise it sounds good once I increase the volume past 10 to 15%.
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OCD for resistor values is an obscure condition, but that doesn't mean it's not real ;)
Ok then, given that ... a quick browse of Mouser shows plenty of both 68.1K and 46.4K resistors. So, assuming that both those values as available in in the same brand and series, your OCD can be satisfied. Now, if your OCD requires that they be "boutique" resistors in the exact values, then, I dont know. :-)
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OCD for resistor values is an obscure condition, but that doesn't mean it's not real ;)
I was just saying I would keep the total to 100k. With an active stage following the attenuator it shouldn't have noise problems.
In my first circuits course the teacher (he was the best educator I have ever experienced) pointed out that it didn't matter what resistance you calculated, you had to buy the standard values that were available.
As exacting as he was he wanted us to know that there were limitations beyond out control out there. I think I said 50k ohms but the value is 51k. You will find to your ears the differences make little difference.
But getting a resistor in front of the attenuator will make quite a difference in how well a nice attenuator controls.
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That "pre-attenuation" that I linked on the Goldpoint side does just that, keeps the impedance the same as the pot value. Different resistor values are chosen for different levels of attenuation based on the value of the pot. The values I stated are those for -10db with a 100K pot or stepped attenuator.
Both from the Goldpoint site :
http://www.goldpt.com/pre_ckt5.gif
http://www.goldpt.com/pre_rstrs3.gif
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I fixed the problem with the left channel. I like the fact that I have more control over the volume and it does not run out of steam. Not sure if there is a sonic disadvantage to using a 50k pot, if not I will be looking to upgrade it in the future. I still want to try it with the 5998, since that has more gain.
Since this thread is about tubes I feel an obligation to provide input on my observations with respect to combines that I have found work well together.
CIFTE 12AU7 and Mullard 6080 work very well together.
CBS 5814A and RCA 6AS7G is a nice combination.
CBS 5814A and T-S 5998 work very well.
I also have a.Mullard 4003 that is edged out by the CBS. Also, the only tube CIFTE works well with is the Mullard 6080. I feel that is missing something with the other power tubes.
I have a Sylvania 12BH7 coming. It sounds like a winner from what I have read.
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I just replace my EH12au7 with the Mullard 40003 and I will have to say that the difference is very noticeable in a very positive way. This is my first foray into really top notch NOS tubes. I always thought they were too expensive for whatever improvement they might provide. I now stand corrected. I chose the Crack for this experiment since I would only need one tube and that would keep my cost down. The Crack makes a nice testing ground for rolling tubes.
My crack has the speedball, Solen output caps and Khozmo attenuator installed. I'm also using an RCA Blackplate 6AS7G.
Brad, your post makes me want to try the CBS tube and I think I will keep that in mind for a future try. You have definitely tried more combinations than I have at this point.
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Randell,
The Mullard 4003 is a great sounding tube and is still at the top of my list. It works very well with the 6AS7G. I would say that to my ears the CBS seems to be a little more transparent without losing the warmth in the midrange. I find that the case with the CIFTE when using it with 6AS7G and 5998, but it pairs very well with the Mullard 6080. As a piont of reference the tubes that came with the amp EH 12AU7 and Sylvania 6080 sound very good, but the other tubes take the amp to a different level.
As far as trying different tubes, every few days or so I swap one of the tubes out to see what I think. It is easy for me to do this since the amp is in my bedroom and I like to spend 2 to 3 hours each night listening to music while I read a book. I can't think of any time where I was so disappointed that I had to change tubes.
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I just got the 12BH7 and think it is a nice sounding tube. I really have not heard any tube that makes the Crack sound bad. There are just some tubes that make it sound great. The 12BH7 reminds me of a Sony TV in that it make it gives the sound a bloom with good separation. It does nothing wrong it is just that I like,not my ears the natural sound of the CBS 5814A tube. This has been my favorite tube so far, but will be spending more time with the Sylvania 12BH7.
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Rolled in a NOS RCA 12bh7a and an Tungsram E80CC. The RCA is a great sounding tube maybe the best of those I've tried. The Tungsram E80CC not so great. It sounds a little harsh to me with HD650's. It lacks the warmth of the other tubes I've tried. I'll give it a little time before passing final judgement.
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I bought a 12BH7 for $15 including shipping. I is a nice sounding tube and for the price hard to beat.
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The last NOS RCA 12bh7a I purchased was $3.29 plus $5.00 shipping. So there are some deals out there if you can find them. I'll have to revise my opinion of the Tungsram E80CC. It just needed a little more time to burn in. Very nice sounding tube after all. Nice wide soundstage and very detailed mids. I'm running out of tubes to try and mods for the Crack. Must be time to build a different Bottlehead kit. Now which one?
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Sounds like you got a better deal on the 12BH7. Where did you get the E80CC, because I would like to give them a try?
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The E80CC come from the ebay seller Electrikua in Ukraine. Took a couple weeks to get here but no problems with the transaction. Ended up costing about $20.00 per tube with shipping.
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That is a lot better then the $75 to $85 I have seen at other sellers. Will look on ebay for them. Thanks
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Hey all, This is a dumb question but I'm desparate....I got a 5998 that glows but no sound comes out. Again, it looks fine! Any chance it might be fixed with a some home remedy/vodoo. I'm totally bummed about this. $100 off ebay and it worked an hour. I turned on the crack, and before I got the headphones on I heard a load crackling sound...then nothing.
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Presumably you have verified that the amp still works fine with the original tube. If that is the case, the only thing you can fix would be to clean the pins and check to see if the tube socket contacts are tight. If it's a problem inside the tube it's time to contact the seller.
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Oh ya...still works great with my 421a...I was hoping to compare the two, but after an hour all I could say was that they were very similar.
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Bummer John, they are hard to come by for any semblance of a reasonable price these days. Hope it's a decent seller who will do right by you and refund the money. I got 2 used from Brendan at TW a few months back. Both were listed used, tests as new. One had a white arc between plates at fire up and then intermittent arcing with static in one channel while it was occuring. Brendan exchanged the tube for the last one he had. Also a used, tests new. I was fortunate to pay $35 and $32 for the two I have from him and both tubes look pretty close to NOS. Those are my spares as Im using one that forum member Jim (Jrebman) was kind enough to let go of for a very fair price before I found those two.
I look forward to your comparison with the 421A if you get another 5998. One of my 5998's has the clear top (like the WE 421A) and I can tell you that I can hear no difference between it and the flashed top versions. Not saying that a clear top 5998 is a 421. I have read that all the slight internal variations of the Tung Sol 5998's sound the same, just confirming that with what my ears hear in case you come across one of the different versions.
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Thanks. He said on the listing that no refunds were accepted...soooo, I asked if he would consider a partial refund and he said he could. It did become clear that he was not going to suggest anything as for amount, so I kicked it off by asking if he could do a 50$ refund, which he accepted once I sent it back (posted today). He did let me keep the original Tung-Sol box though! So, I got a box for 50$...more than u paid for your tube...sad. But hey, win-some-lose-some. He could have just blown me off though, then I'd have to give him a fairly low rating.
Let me know if you find more at that price!!
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Picked up a Sylvania 12BH7A with the thick halo getter angled at about 45 degrees. Very detailed and good sounding tube.
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Hey guys, I rolled an e80cc into my crack about a month ago, and yes it was a little harsh an shrill at first. After 25-30 hours it began to smooth out, now I am loving it paired with a 5998. I also listen with HD650s. Plus it is a rather beautiful tube. So give it some time you might find you like it
Cheers,
Shawn
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Shawn,
What flavor of C80EE tube do you have in the crack?
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Brad, I have two Phillips Miniwatt SQ E80CC, they can be expensive as heck. I traded tubes and cash with a friend. Not sure where he bought them but the tubes and the origiinal boxes look like they came off the assembly line yesterday. I also put one in my Hagerman CornetII phonostage and it made a significant difference in this amp as well. Finished my eros a couple of days ago though, and after listening for quite a few hours I don't think I will be listening to the Hagerman much anymore. I saw you posted you like the CBS Hytron, it is a great tube in thee Crack, plus as a side benefit it actually glows. It was my favorite driver to date but I think the E80CC might have supplanted it.
Cheers,
Shawn
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Thanks. He said on the listing that no refunds were accepted...soooo, I asked if he would consider a partial refund and he said he could. It did become clear that he was not going to suggest anything as for amount, so I kicked it off by asking if he could do a 50$ refund, which he accepted once I sent it back (posted today). He did let me keep the original Tung-Sol box though! So, I got a box for 50$...more than u paid for your tube...sad. But hey, win-some-lose-some. He could have just blown me off though, then I'd have to give him a fairly low rating.
Let me know if you find more at that price!!
50 bucks is better than nothing. Ebay definitely can getcha. In recent memory, had a very weak 6AS7 that was supposed to be strong, a dead 12BH7 and a 6SN7 that went dead within a few minutes. They were all dirt cheap but it's still money down the drain. But many more good finds than lemons so I keep rolling the dice. I was a bit bummed on the 6SN7 because it was a relabeled Sylvania VT-231 for dirt cheap. Win some, lose some.
Will do on the 5998's.
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Hello eveybody, I'm now on Crack like a lot of you :)
I tried many tubes in the amp, but unfortunately it only works well with 12au7 family and 6sn7. Also 12bh7 and 6gu7 appear to be working well. Now to the question, I want to try 12ax7 in the amp - I have a lot of them - Telefunken, Mazda and other European brands - US brands that sound just phenomenal. What should I do to make the rolling of the tubes adjustable - I'm planning to roll a lot of them :)
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In a word, you can't.
Well, nothing is impossible, but to do so you must operate at extremely low plate current and at a bias uncomfortably close to Class A2. The low current means marginal drive at high frequencies (distortion and anemic treble) and the low bias means potential distortion as the grid current loads the volume control with a nonlinear impedance.
Starting point - replace the LED in the cathode with a silicon diode, to give around 0.7v bias. Use a small signal diode, not a rectifier diode. Then increase the plate load resistor from 22K to 220K - but experiment with that value to get ~70v on the plate. If you have the speedball, increase R1 to 1700 ohms to get 0.5mA current.
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Thank, Paul. I will stay away from this kind of mod for now - need to roll all the 12au7, 6gu7 and 6sn7 tubes first :)
BTW, I'm posting results of rolling on www.tubemaze.info
First couple of 6as7 tubes for Crack:
http://tubemaze.info/svetlana-6as7-6%D0%BD13%D1%81/
http://tubemaze.info/raytheon-jan-6080/
Will also post review of Raytheon 5814 Windmill getter today - hope it sounds as good as advertised :)
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There is some discussion of the Russian 6H13C's here. I have a pair or the 70's Svetlanas. Not as enthusiastic about them as you are. The bass is very good as you point out but I find the treble to be gritty for lack of a better word. Not my cup of tea. If you are up for tube rolling, try the RCA 6AS7. You can find them, with some persistence and patience, below $15 on epay. Actually, I found that they were easy to find on the cheap last summer. Looking lately, not as easy.
If you can find a 5998 for a fair price, you might even like those better still. They may trade some bass impact for control with improvement everywhere else. A bit higher gain as well (or less loss as I think Doc B. pointed out). Not cheap, commonly going upwards of $100 and beyond lately, when you can find them. Really nice sounding tube but as always, YMMV.
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Thanks, Laudanum. I have a few RCA & Raytheon 6as7, but didn't find them to be as transparent as the other two tubes. I was able to score them for $20 for 11!!! the dude who was selling them couldn't check the tubes - on my tube tester only one came weak the rest test great! I found that tube rolling with Crack is not as exciting as I hoped :) It appears that since voltage amplification is not needed in the amp and the 12au7 is used as driver with 6as7 used as cathode follower, it limits the effects that tubes can have on the sound - so in general everything sounds quite good. I even put in dreaded GE short gray plates, which I have to test various systems. Even they sounded quite decent in Crack compared to my McIntosh or SET 300B based amps. I even put 12at7 into the amp and DARN! it didn't squeal :D 6sn7, which usually produces much bigger sound in other systems sounded the same as 12au7s. There is a very small variation in the sound coming from different tubes, but it could be completely psychological. The same issue is with tube rolling for Driver & Cathode follower in McIntosh - there is really no point in spending large amount of money on Telefunkens for these stages - the majority of other tubes produce the same transparency and sound-stage. The two stages that affect the sound significantly are phase inverter and preamp (voltage amplifier), there you can have a lot of fun :), but with Crack both stages are absent.
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It appears that since voltage amplification is not needed in the amp and the 12au7 is used as driver......
Errrrr, the 12AU7 is indeed a voltage amplifier in this amp.
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Errrrr, the 12AU7 is indeed a voltage amplifier in this amp.
Hmm, that's very strange then - do you know what gain is in that phase? One explanation is that since I use the amp at a very low volume - it has enough power to drive HD650 at 25% of max, the stage doesn't have as much affect on the sound wave. I guess I will just enjoy the amp :) And use my Dared & McIntosh for the rolling fun.
Some of my experiences with MC rolling...
http://tubemaze.info/rolling-with-mcintosh-275/
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The 12AU7 has a gain of 17 with the current source load; closer to 12 with the stock resistor. The 6080 cathode follower is around 2/3 - it's a very low-mu tube.
Probably what you are hearing is the small output voltage of the 12AU7 - since it's a tiny fraction of the maximum, the distortion is miniscule, and what there is is almost entirely second order. In a power amp, the driver usually has to put out nearly all the voltage it is capable of, and can dominate the distortion signature unless precautions are taken.
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Thanks, Laudanum. I have a few RCA & Raytheon 6as7, but didn't find them to be as transparent as the other two tubes. I was able to score them for $20 for 11!!! the dude who was selling them couldn't check the tubes - on my tube tester only one came weak the rest test great! I found that tube rolling with Crack is not as exciting as I hoped :) It appears that since voltage amplification is not needed in the amp and the 12au7 is used as driver with 6as7 used as cathode follower, it limits the effects that tubes can have on the sound - so in general everything sounds quite good. I even put in dreaded GE short gray plates, which I have to test various systems. Even they sounded quite decent in Crack compared to my McIntosh or SET 300B based amps. I even put 12at7 into the amp and DARN! it didn't squeal :D 6sn7, which usually produces much bigger sound in other systems sounded the same as 12au7s. There is a very small variation in the sound coming from different tubes, but it could be completely psychological. The same issue is with tube rolling for Driver & Cathode follower in McIntosh - there is really no point in spending large amount of money on Telefunkens for these stages - the majority of other tubes produce the same transparency and sound-stage. The two stages that affect the sound significantly are phase inverter and preamp (voltage amplifier), there you can have a lot of fun :), but with Crack both stages are absent.
In my experience with Crack, some of the 12AU7 rolling has made for fairly subtle differences, some more distinct than others. Going to a different tube like the 12BH7 or 6SN7 for example makes for a bigger change, less subtle than some of the changes between 12AU7's. I dont have nearly as many 6080/6AS7's as I do 12AU7's but there are pretty distinct differences between all of them with one exception. The difference between the RCA and GE 6AS7's that I have are pretty subtle. But rolling between those 6AS7's or the Russian 6H13C, Raytheon 6080 or the TS 5998 all make for fairly distinct differences, not hard to discern. BTW, glad you enjoy the 6H13C. Affordable and available is always nice. I really enjoy the 5998 but could be perfectly happy with the 6AS7's I mentioned.
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Laudanum. Thanks for sharing your experience. Crack is very difficult to roll. It's great on one hand, but disappointing on the other. Great, because you can get great sound from many tubes. Disappointing, because some tubes provide a very unique sound. As you stated, 6sn7 produce fantastic sound. I changed my Crack to work with 6v family (6dj8, 6gu7), 12v family (12au7...), Octal Family (6sn7). and Yes I do have 3 sockets in my Crack :) - in addition to the 6as7 socket.
Recently, I was able to find a tube that made Crack shine. It created a huge difference, not a small one - and it was 12au7!!! I was not expecting that. I got the tube cheap on Ebay to try it out - it was Mazda 12au7 - now I bought 8 more (more expensive, but well worth it) ;D
Check out my review:
http://tubemaze.info/mazda-12au7-gray-plates/
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Nick,
What power tube are you using with the Mazda? In my Crack I like the Mazda with the Mullard 6080 best.
After reading your review I will have to give the Mazda another listen with some of my other power tubes.
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This is a man who found a way to get whatever tube he found into the Crack. Congratulations are in order.
Laudanum. Thanks for sharing your experience. Crack is very difficult to roll. It's great on one hand, but disappointing on the other. Great, because you can get great sound from many tubes. Disappointing, because some tubes provide a very unique sound. As you stated, 6sn7 produce fantastic sound. I changed my Crack to work with 6v family (6dj8, 6gu7), 12v family (12au7...), Octal Family (6sn7). and Yes I do have 3 sockets in my Crack :) - in addition to the 6as7 socket.
Recently, I was able to find a tube that made Crack shine. It created a huge difference, not a small one - and it was 12au7!!! I was not expecting that. I got the tube cheap on Ebay to try it out - it was Mazda 12au7 - now I bought 8 more (more expensive, but well worth it) ;D
Check out my review:
http://tubemaze.info/mazda-12au7-gray-plates/
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Nick,
What power tube are you using with the Mazda? In my Crack I like the Mazda with the Mullard 6080 best.
After reading your review I will have to give the Mazda another listen with some of my other power tubes.
I'm using Svetlanas. Really like the airiness they produce and mid base tightness, but at the same time maintain warmth. Or maybe because I'm from Russia and was born the same year they were born :D
I haven't tried many 6as7 tubes to be honest. Structurally the majority of them look similar, so why bother. However, WE, Mullard, Tung-sol are on my list to try. I haven't had much luck rolling power tubes - they produce practically no sonic difference, so my investment is in drivers :) - so many to try. If you go to tubemaze.info, you will find all my rolling experiences between 4 tube amps - about 60 tubes and counting. Submit your review of Mullard 6080 there - let's make it fun.
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This is a man who found a way to get whatever tube he found into the Crack. Congratulations are in order.
I wish that would be the case. The only tubes I can use in the amp are all limited by gain up to 60 work fine, but anything above doesn't work, so no 12ax7 or 5751 rolling (although Sylvania JAN 5751 worked, but JHS 5751 wouldn't :o )
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Are you checking the voltages with each of these different tube types? The nature of the direct coupled circuit is such that the bias on some tubes might be less than optimal unless some other changes are made.
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Are you checking the voltages with each of these different tube types? The nature of the direct coupled circuit is such that the bias on some tubes might be less than optimal unless some other changes are made.
Hi Doc, I'm in a monkey mode right now - I see and I do, but have no idea how to calculate things. It's been suggested to I should replace LED with Silicon Diode, but I have no idea what value that diode should be or if there are other changes I should make O_o
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In general I think one needs to be careful when publishing tube rolling reviews where you plug a tube in that was not intended to be used in the circuit. A 12AU7 and 12AX7 are not really interchangeable. Yes, they have the same pinout - you can put Vanagon wheels on an SLK, too - but they are designed for different jobs. I'm not saying don't try it, and in most cases no harm will be done. But I think it is important to note in the review that a given tube might not be operating at it's best without some changes to the circuit (or that it might not really be the best choice for the job at hand) and thus it might not be getting the fairest representation.
With this in mind I'll suggest that with the proper changes to the tube socket and heater voltage and current requirements a 6SN7 will typically work in place of a 12AU7. A 12BH7 will too, if one makes sure there is enough additional heater current available. As one gets further away from the 12AU7 spec, for example 12AT7s, 12AV7s, 12AZ7s and 12AX7s, one may need to alter the circuit anywhere from mildly to fairly radically. Also be careful with 6DJ8s, they aren't designed for as much plate voltage as a 12A_7 family tube and thus they may be subjected to too high a plate to cathode potential in some circuits.
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Understand - putting a tube that the amp is not designed for is not a fair test. Yah. I've been using my other 3 amps to do the rolling with 12at7 & 12ax7 (McIntosh 275) and 12at7 & 12au7 (300B based SET amp & my hybrid tube amp). Using Crack to roll only 12au7 family :)
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And after publicly stating that I don't use 12at7 in Crack... I just did :) Crack was the closes amp and I needed to try a new tube - it worked extremely well. I then double checked the results in other amps with very similar outcome.
Check it out - this one is out of this world:
http://tubemaze.info/sylvania-12at7-gray-plates-2-mica/
If you find it - buy it. If you don't, let me know and I'll buy it!
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I'm using Svetlanas. Really like the airiness they produce and mid base tightness, but at the same time maintain warmth. Or maybe because I'm from Russia and was born the same year they were born :D
I haven't tried many 6as7 tubes to be honest. Structurally the majority of them look similar, so why bother. However, WE, Mullard, Tung-sol are on my list to try. I haven't had much luck rolling power tubes - they produce practically no sonic difference, so my investment is in drivers :) - so many to try. If you go to tubemaze.info, you will find all my rolling experiences between 4 tube amps - about 60 tubes and counting. Submit your review of Mullard 6080 there - let's make it fun.
Im really surprised that you dont hear a difference between power tubes. I dont have a whole lot of different ones and I agree on one point that I think I mentioned ... I cant hear much between the GE 6AS7 and the RCA 6AS7. I have 3 or 4 of the RCA's and, I think 2 of the GE's one with copper shield, one without. All ST shape tubes. The GE's have a smaller bottle but the internals are very similiar. There are subtle differences that I wouldnt swear on hearing and I highly doubt that I could I pick between these two in a blind test. But that aside, between those 6AS7's I mention and the Raytheon 6080's that I have as well as the Svetlana 6H13C and the Tungsol 5998 there are distinct differences between most of them. Now to be fair, the 5998 and probably the 6H13C are slightly different specs wise. But the differences between these tubes I find to be more distinct than between most of the different 12AU7's. Give your drivers some longer listening time and then try a different one, I would be surprised if you couldnt hear differences. It would only be 3 tubes but I'd bet I could pick between the 6H13C, RCA 6AS7 and TS 5998 in a blind test ... and probably the Raytheon 6080 as well. I cant say the same for most of the 12au7's I have, those are mostly a "feel" thing. And I absolutely dont have golden ears. Give it a try with the power tubes.
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Im really surprised that you dont hear a difference between power tubes. I dont have a whole lot of different ones and I agree on one point that I think I mentioned ... I cant hear much between the GE 6AS7 and the RCA 6AS7. I have 3 or 4 of the RCA's and, I think 2 of the GE's one with copper shield, one without. All ST shape tubes. The GE's have a smaller bottle but the internals are very similiar. There are subtle differences that I wouldnt swear on hearing and I highly doubt that I could I pick between these two in a blind test. But that aside, between those 6AS7's I mention and the Raytheon 6080's that I have as well as the Svetlana 6H13C and the Tungsol 5998 there are distinct differences between most of them. Now to be fair, the 5998 and probably the 6H13C are slightly different specs wise. But the differences between these tubes I find to be more distinct than between most of the different 12AU7's. Give your drivers some longer listening time and then try a different one, I would be surprised if you couldnt hear differences. It would only be 3 tubes but I'd bet I could pick between the 6H13C, RCA 6AS7 and TS 5998 in a blind test ... and probably the Raytheon 6080 as well. I cant say the same for most of the 12au7's I have, those are mostly a "feel" thing. And I absolutely dont have golden ears. Give it a try with the power tubes.
I definitely did hear a difference, but it's not as huge as input or driver tubes. they only one I didn't hear a difference are RCA & Raytheon 6as7 - I bet they were produced in the same place. Really want to get my hands on 5998, but it has to wait right now - they are going for at least $50 a tube for a low measuring tube. It looks like WE 421 & Tung-sol 5998 have the same plate structure, so I would assume that they sound the same - any comments?
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Dan's warning about using other tube numbers that are not 12AU7s in Crack is for listening and proper performance. But if you want to test a tube and it has the right heater arrangement you might find out if it makes sound. I once used a 12AX7 in place of a 6DJ8 because I didn't have a spare when my 6DJ8 went out. It didn't sound right but did OK for background music for a few hours.
Dan is warning that you will not get the intended performance, gain, output and distortion using different tubes.
I do understand the physics that are involved in rolling different tubes - mechanical & electrical :D But 12at7 does work in Crack and works fairly well especially at low volume. If I'm not mistaken there should be enough bias to allow for a small voltage swings with 12at7. However, I tested the tube at full volume and it still sounded phenomenally - so no matter what physics mighty state, my ears state that this is one of the best tubes that I've ever rolled in Crack (and I have zero interest in it, just want to share my OPINION) and I've tried over 50 tubes (different brands and models of 12au7 & 5814 & 5963 & 6189 ... ) - I'm collecting unusual tubes, so I have all sorts of crazy tubes from the family. ;D
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Did you measure the voltages?
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"If it sounds good, it IS good" remains true, and I can't argue with it.
But drawing conclusions is a different issue. For example, a 12AT7 will have a higher plate voltage, driving the 6AS7 to a higher cathode voltage, and (without the Speedball) higher current. Our experiments have shown that increasing the current in the 6AS7 improves the sound - so ascribing the improvement to the 12AT7 by itself would be inappropriate. (With Speedball the current is constant so this effect is less significant.)
The same arrangement would increase the dissipation of the cathode resistor beyond the design condition. With the Speedball, it's the transistor dissipation that would increase. Either way, the components may have a shorter lifetime.
Both of the above are caused by the direct coupled design - sounds good but it's just less robust than cap-coupled topologies.
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The WE 421 is/is not a Tung-Sol 5998 debate will always rage on amongst very small groups of hobbyists. Do a google search, you will find tidbits of info from both sides of the debate. I dont have a WE and have no plans to spend the money on one. I'll just have to slum it with the 5998 and two spares that I do have. By the way, from everything I have found, all of the 5998's are Tung-sol made, no matter what they are branded. That's not the straight glass 5998A's (which are generally considered a lesser tube, sonically). I dont know if the A's were made by more than one manufacturer, but the ST shaped 5998 was only made by Tung-sol ... again, as far as I know.
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For what it's worth, I did put a 12AT7 in the driver socket one time, just out of curiosity, as I was trying to wrap my mind around the electrical workings of a direct-coupled circuit. I don't have the voltages I measured handy, but I recall the plate voltage being definitely higher than usual, and that was with the standard LED biasing the cathode. I have the Speedball installed, so that probably put the brakes on any large changes. Needless to say, the resulting combination sounded like poo - very low volume and an anemic sound. I take it that the Speedball was doing its job by preventing large shifts in the circuit - so who knows what would happen with the standard resistive arrangement? However, I can't help but feel sticking a totally different tube in there isn't ideal. The furthest I've gone from the standard 12AU7 is an E80cc, and now a 12BH7, both of which are much closer in terms of plate impedance and mu when compared to something like a 12AT7 or 6922. I'm not even sure how the latter would work in this circuit! Wouldn't the high transconductance and low plate impedance result in altered behavior at the grid of the 6AS7?
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I have the basic version of Crack (no upgrades whatsoever). 12at7 works and sounds on the level of 12au7 (with Sylvania 12at7wa, it killed the majority of 12au7s except maybe for Mazda - I couldn't hear any sonic differences between these two tubes), but with much more volume. I know it's not suppressed to sound good - but it does (in Crack, in McIntosh, in SET 300b) - and I have experience in what a good sound is supposed to be - I tried all major brands of 12at7, 12au7 & 12ax7 - from Telefunkens selects - at $200 a tube to GE gray plates at $1 a tube)
Not sure about voltages anywhere, but it's a tube, if it works - it will continue working :) - compared to transistors. I don't see myself upgrading to anything that would involve transistors in Crack - I understand that they might make things better, but it's a transistor :) I love my Creack - pure!
Tube rolling wise, here are my favorites in Crack: Mazda 12au7, Sylvania 12at7wa, RCA 5962 (red base), Sulvania JHS 5814, Amperex 12at7 france, Amperex 7062, Westinghouse 12au7, Amperex 12au7, Westinghouse 6gu7. Some produce incredible clarity and sound stage, some produce superb warmth - depending on the mood :)
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I don't see myself upgrading to anything that would involve transistors in Crack - I understand that they might make things better, but it's a transistor :) I love my Creack - pure!
I could not disagree more with this position. Tubes must have a load and in the vast majority of cases, including the Crack, a CCS provides a *much* better load on the tube than a simple resistor. You get better PSRR, lower distortion, higher gain...... and from every single report I have read (plus my own experience) the Speedball just plain sounds better.
How is it pure to ignore these benefits? Does it make you a "better" tube guy to forego better sound quality by deliberately avoiding transistors?
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How is it pure to ignore these benefits? Does it make you a "better" tube guy to forego better sound quality by deliberately avoiding transistors?
This is absolutely just an OPINION I have. I have a hybrid headphone amp and it does sound very good - so I'm not a complete purist, but I have more PERSONAL fun by rolling tubes and discovering incredible sound than changing amp circuitry - to each its own. However, I do believe that tube amps without transistors sound perfectly . I went through many amps and still have to find something that sounds better than McIntosh 275 with Vienna Acoustics Beethoven (plus Genesys sub - so there are transistors involved :D) - at least to MY ears, this is a sonic paradise - with the right tubes.
No how about rolling one of these tubes in Crack? :D
http://www.stereomojo.com/KR%20Audio%20Kronzilla%20SX1%20Mk%20II%20Review/KRAudioKronzillaSX1MkIIAmplifierReview.htm
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So I've been rolling today :) I tried to put 6sn7 (RCA 5692 Red Base) against 12bh7 (Sylvania gray round plates) against 12au7 (Mazda). I would say these are the best of the best in each family.
Here are my findings:
6sn7 - great bass, good details, very well developed mid-range - very forward, not much air - it's all kind there in the music, but doesn't wrap you up in it.
12bh7 - great bass, great details, more air than 6sn7. mid-range is not as developed. Much more feeling of being there.
12au7 - bass is not as good as previous two, phenomenal air, superb mid-range. With this tube there is a spooky feeling of being there. It's like seating on a stage with the artist.
Did blind testing with my wife - the only thing she knows about tubes is that they take a lot of money and a lot of my time :) Out of the 3, she stated that she loved Mazda again because of the "being there" feeling.
One of the best performances for this are: Patric Bruel - L'appart - Seul Ou Presque.
Disclaimer: This is my personal OPINION. Your results may vary. 12bh7 is a great tube :)
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Nick,
You got my attention with your posts and switched out my personal favorites, CBS 5814A and 5998 for the Mazda 12AU7 and RCA 6AS7G. Listening to the later combo now and loving it. I'm not going to say witch I thinks is better, because I really don't know but really enjoying this combo.
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In spite of my technical remarks in this thread, I love it. Reminds me of the early days of the Foreplay, when people stuck pretty much anything with 9 pins into the sockets just to see what happens - hey, it's cheap fun and even if something blows up you can fix it, there aren't many parts and they are not expensive. I can gas on all day about optimal operating points, distortion, headroom, etc - but none of us would be here if it wasn't also FUN!
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In spite of my technical remarks in this thread, I love it. Reminds me of the early days of the Foreplay, when people stuck pretty much anything with 9 pins into the sockets just to see what happens - hey, it's cheap fun and even if something blows up you can fix it, there aren't many parts and they are not expensive. I can gas on all day about optimal operating points, distortion, headroom, etc - but none of us would be here if it wasn't also FUN!
Exactly!!! If you stick it and love it - "roll" with it!!!
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Nick,
You got my attention with your posts and switched out my personal favorites, CBS 5814A and 5998 for the Mazda 12AU7 and RCA 6AS7G. Listening to the later combo now and loving it. I'm not going to say witch I thinks is better, because I really don't know but really enjoying this combo.
I would love to hear your thoughts on the combo of Mazda and 5998. I was thinking about pulling the plug on 5998, but hesitate a bit. The darn thing sounds so good right now that I can't even imagine it sounding better ;) Try Svetlana, it costs very little to try (compared to 5998), it adds a bit of air compared to RCA.
Lately, I've been in love with with Mazda. Everything I try - starting from 12ax7 with silver plates (not in Crack) to 12at7 to 12au7 is absolutely phenomenal. I was impressed by the air that telefunkens can create, but telefunkens are not match to Mazda. I got a huge deal today on ebay. $100 for 5 Mazda 12au7 marked with GE brand!!! They guy wanted much more for it, but Ebay is like any other market - you can negotiate. This one is with the slit in the plate - that's the one I have right now - absolutely phenomenal. I couldn't understand what soundstage was to it's full extent until I got Mazda - I have no idea what French put in it, but darn - C'est si bon. Oh no, I've been listening to french tubes tooooo long. :D Now I'm waiting for another set of 4 Mazda - this time it's military Cifte with a round hole in the plate. I will post my impressions as soon as I get them. Ebay is a gold mine if you are willing to negotiate :) I would love to compare this to the SELECT Telefunkens that I have, these bustards sell for $225 a tube, I got it with my McIntosh, but 12au7s perform poorly in MC (Yes I did put them in MC even if the spec said that I only should put 12ax7 - whatever).
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Nick,
I think what you like about the Mazda and what makes it different from the rest of the tubes is that it has a cleaner sound and not the traditional tubie sound. That is one of the reasons I believe in your comparison a few post back that you found it did not have as much base as the other tubes.
The 6AS7G is a great tube and no brianer recommendation. The 5998 I believe takes you to that next level, but that is my opinion. From what you discribe about what you like with the sound I found that the 5998 did it for me.
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Nick,
I think what you like about the Mazda and what makes it different from the rest of the tubes is that it has a cleaner sound and not the traditional tubie sound. That is one of the reasons I believe in your comparison a few post back that you found it did not have as much base as the other tubes.
The 6AS7G is a great tube and no brianer recommendation. The 5998 I believe takes you to that next level, but that is my opinion. From what you discribe about what you like with the sound I found that the 5998 did it for me.
Agreed, that what it sounds like to me as well. I dont have a Mazda tube but Im catching a "drift" here so to speak. Nick, I think it would be worth trying the 5998 but you may need to again be prepared to roll the driver. Also, dont completely dismiss the Speedball. I believe it will give you exactly what you are trying to achieve with tube rolling. You arent breaking any "rules" with it. I was a bit resistant as well. Take advantage of what technology has to offer. You may save some money on buying all them tubes :o
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I just got two 5998 on Ebay today for $30 :o. They are weak but in working condition as the seller claims - we will see - I hope they are at least not DOA.
I'm quite sure that I will try Speedball sometime in the future. Yesterday I added Triad Choke and quite impressed with absolute silence that the amp produces. I still hear hiss, but only at extreme volume levels - I can't use the amp at that level (with Mazda for example, which is superbly quiet, I have to max the amp out to hear a hiss) - I usually push the volume up on my PC and can reduce the amp volume to a fairly low level.
I also got recently Xonar Essence STX audio card for my PC and very impressed. No more interference from PC and absolute silence during pause. The card has -124 db SNR! Very impressive. It also has a built in headphone amp - not very impressive. A standard SS sound (although a good one) - good bass, but not much air, no feeling of presence - boring. But based on specs it kills Crack :D
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I broke up and change Crack to accept 12ax7 :) Now the amp works with 12au7, 12ax7 and 6sn7 families. What can I say - I love it. The sound is superb. It's not possible to find in 12au7, which has its own stars, tubes that sound like Sylvania GB 5751 or Raytheon 5751 Windmill.
Paul, thanks for you help in making the mod. The diode & resistor did the trick.
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BTW, I got Bellari HA540 today to roll 12ax7 tubes... 30 minutes later I printed return shipment label and sent it on its happy way back to where it came from. Crack Rules!!! I don't even want to compare the two.
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Here's an old story about 12AX7s that you might not have heard - it goes back to the second (?) VSAC, somewhere in the late 90s (?).
My late friend Tim Lollar (brother of the excellent boutique guitar pickup maker Jason Lollar) built a preamp with sockets for something like ten different tubes, switch selectable. All of them were on all the time to eliminate warmup effect, and each was operated at its own optimal current, giving identical normalized operating points. So we could pretty much count on technically identical operation, leaving only tube and gain differences. We adjusted the gain for identical outputs.
We did a mass listening comparison at the show with a crowd of about 35 people, each filling out their own rating sheet. The tubes were not identified until the session was over, and I as speaker did not know in what order Time was switching them. As close to a double-blind comparison as we could manage. No discussion was permitted until we had gone through all the tubes - of course, a pretty lively discussion followed (and carried over to the bar after)!
The interesting thing was, in the discussion nobody liked the 12AX7, and hardly anyone even mentioned it. IIRC, 6SN7s and 01A's were highly regarded, with a smattering of several others. Several months later, I tried to make statistical sense of the ratings. First place was all over the map. BUT ... for a clear majority, the 12AX7 was their second-favorite. I guess it was a little too politically-incorrect among audiophiles at the time, probably because it's a guitar tube. But in blind listening, it was very popular. I never found any other statistically-meaningful result from the test, and we never published the results. But I do tell the story now and then... :^)
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Here's an old story about 12AX7s that you might not have heard - it goes back to the second (?) VSAC, somewhere in the late 90s (?).
My late friend Tim Lollar (brother of the excellent boutique guitar pickup maker Jason Lollar) built a preamp with sockets for something like ten different tubes, switch selectable. All of them were on all the time to eliminate warmup effect, and each was operated at its own optimal current, giving identical normalized operating points. So we could pretty much count on technically identical operation, leaving only tube and gain differences. We adjusted the gain for identical outputs.
We did a mass listening comparison at the show with a crowd of about 35 people, each filling out their own rating sheet. The tubes were not identified until the session was over, and I as speaker did not know in what order Time was switching them. As close to a double-blind comparison as we could manage. No discussion was permitted until we had gone through all the tubes - of course, a pretty lively discussion followed (and carried over to the bar after)!
The interesting thing was, in the discussion nobody liked the 12AX7, and hardly anyone even mentioned it. IIRC, 6SN7s and 01A's were highly regarded, with a smattering of several others. Several months later, I tried to make statistical sense of the ratings. First place was all over the map. BUT ... for a clear majority, the 12AX7 was their second-favorite. I guess it was a little too politically-incorrect among audiophiles at the time, probably because it's a guitar tube. But in blind listening, it was very popular. I never found any other statistically-meaningful result from the test, and we never published the results. But I do tell the story now and then... :^)
That is hilarious :) I love 12ax7 no matter what people are saying about them - they provide tremendous dynamic impact and superb clarity. Since it's one of the most popular tubes, I bet a lot of funds were invested in developing it. For some reason, I actually prefer the rare dark gray (kind of hazy) color 12ax7 tubes. I found them among Westinghouse and RCA brands - I bet other ones made them as well - so many tubes to try :) If I understand correctly these were created during the transition in from Black to Gray material.
To be honest, the goal of the transition was to convert the amp to support 5751 tubes. To my ears, these are one of the most incredible tubes created. I mean Sylvania 5814 GB is awesome, but the 5751 gray plates (not a big fan of black plates 5751) with 3 mica is magical. So now I have two favorites: 1) Sylvania 5751 GB - when I want to listen to something very personal - think Melody Gardot; 2) Mazda 12ax7 or 12au7 - when I'm listening to concerts or classical music.
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This is for anyone with experience using the 12AX7. Any preferred brands? NOS or Current production? Just purchased a used Jolida FX tube Dac that I am modifying and is slated for my bedroom system. It uses 12AX7s in the output.
Cheers,
Shawn
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This is for anyone with experience using the 12AX7. Any preferred brands? NOS or Current production? Just purchased a used Jolida FX tube Dac that I am modifying and is slated for my bedroom system. It uses 12AX7s in the output.
I know that the electrostatic headphone technophiles like the new production JJ. They have the very low noise and microphonics required for high gain applications.
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This is for anyone with experience using the 12AX7. Any preferred brands? NOS or Current production? Just purchased a used Jolida FX tube Dac that I am modifying and is slated for my bedroom system. It uses 12AX7s in the output.
Cheers,
Shawn
Depends on what you want to get out of your sound: Amperex - balanced & sweet; RCA - warm & rich; Mazda - bright; Mullard - warm & relaxed; Telefunken - precise.
Here is a good write up:
http://www.watfordvalves.com/cgi-bin/documents/testreport_2.pdf
You also might want to try 5751 - there are some gems in the stack - but again depends on the sound you want to get.
I have a few of them next to my amp - and swap them depending on music I want to play.
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Thanks guys, the 5751 has less gain than the 12AX7 IIRC.
Cheers,
Shawn
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Got 5998 tubes today. They tested quite good at 95%, but I have a very basic tester, but at least it tests as good as any other 6as7s that I got. Heats up quickly and doesn't have noise. So all is good.
Now, about the sound. All the "rumors" about SQ getting better with the tube are true :) It feels that another layer has been added to the sound. It sounds sweeter than Svetlana and more transparent and dynamic than the 6as7. If I can compare the 3 tubes to 12ax7: Svetlana is like Telefunken - clear etched sound, RCA is like... RCA :) warm and juicy, but not very transparent - also noisier than the other two; Tung-Sol is like Mullard - very transparent and dynamic, but relaxed.
BTW, if you are looking for a dark sounding tube with incredible warmth and juiciness that rivals even RCA, you should try Westinghouse 12au7 with carbon black plates. In the article below, I put a few steps how to ID the real WH compare to WH branded RCA tubes:
http://tubemaze.info/westinghouse-12au7-carbon-plates/
They pop up on Ebay once in a while.
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Very informative and nicely articulated, thanks! Where did you find the 5998's (pm me please)? All I find on e-bay are questionable. Fact is I just won one for 50 bucks and am very skeptical...for one, nobody else bid! There are some from England but he wouldn't give values on single tubes when asked. Only that they all range from 80-100% Maybe I should gamble once more...
By the way...those westinghouse 12au7's in your link are on e-bay...same background, same toobs. http://www.ebay.com/itm/3ea-12AU7A-1ea-12AU7-Vintage-Westinghouse-Radio-Tube-/140665492681?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item20c05114c9
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Very informative and nicely articulated, thanks! Where did you find the 5998's (pm me please)? All I find on e-bay are questionable. Fact is I just won one for 50 bucks and am very skeptical...for one, nobody else bid! There are some from England but he wouldn't give values on single tubes when asked. Only that they all range from 80-100% Maybe I should gamble once more...
By the way...those westinghouse 12au7's in your link are on e-bay...same background, same toobs. http://www.ebay.com/itm/3ea-12AU7A-1ea-12AU7-Vintage-Westinghouse-Radio-Tube-/140665492681?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item20c05114c9
I got them from Ebay - I guess I got lucky :) I put the max bid of ~$35 and won O_o. The issue with the tubes is that it's very hard to measure them with any tube tester - so the numbers you see on Ebay - I wouldn't trust - the tube could be much more performant than they state - you need to have a reference NOS tube (to get performance) and then see how they warm up. If they warm up fast and show close to the NOS tube performance, it's all good and they will likely last for a long time (hopefully). There is no guaranty even with NOS.
The Westinghouse in your link appear to be gray plates - so it's likely a rebrand. Here is the real version (not responsible if they are gone by the time you look at them ;) )
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Westinghouse-12AU7A-Tube-Pair-82-and-92-/320904055498?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item4ab75f4aca
There is also a special military version of the WH tubes - marked as CWL (these sound the same as usual version, but they are selected & ruggedized):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-NOS-Westinghouse-by-Tung-Sol-Long-Black-Plate-FAT-D-Getter-JAN-CWL-12AU7-Tubes-/120911863648?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item1c26e89f60
They are getting kind of pricey and not because of my review ;)
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So here is another interesting finding - I already discovered it with the other amps, but rediscovered it with Crack :)
Tube rolling results are very dependent on the output tube (6as7). I had the same experience with Dared 300B & McIntosh 275 (even driver tubes and cathod followers prevented a tube to shine if they were not transparent enough). If I put output tubes that are not transparent enough, all rolling experience is screwed up. All tubes sound the same because output tubes affect sound so much, so the more transparent the output tubes the better.
Now, in one of my first thought stated that rolling with Crack is hard - I have to admit I was absolutely wrong. Rolling is only hard when Raytheon (6080) or Svetlana or RCA are used as output tubes. With 5998 it's a new world, the amp is so responsive to rolling (I don't have Speedball - I have prejudges against SAND) that each new tube is like new experience.
As I mentioned before I modified my Crack to work with 6SN7, 12au7, 12ax7 family. Check out the photo :D
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftubemaze.info%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F05%2FDSC03682-1-768x1024.jpg&hash=49a006ca90cf64bd2d756e26f64e4889a6cefc38)
There is a switch now that switches between anode voltage and bios of medium-mu (12au7 & 6sn7) and high-mu tubes (12ax7). WOW!!! New tubes that I rolled were just absolutely gorgeous. I try to post my experiences on www.tubemaze.info every day.
I understand that 12ax7 is not the best tube for headphones - whatever! There are some tubes in the family that can't be matched my any other tubes. For example, I was selling my Telefunken 12ax7 Smooth plates Selects on ebay because although they were for my MC, I couldn't hear a difference between regular smooth plates and Selects - speakers, as you know, are not the best media to communicate nuances of music. With the modification I finally understood why the freaking tube costs $200 (I didn't buy it, but inherited with the MC). Anyways, if you are into discovering new dimensions of music, 12ax7 & 5751 is a must. So make the mod!!! It's super easy.
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You can hate me and say that Mazda doesn't have the real tube sound, but it doesn't sound like SS either - it has a unique sound to it and for some music I'm just absolutely in love with the tubes. JTake for example, Diana Panton - she has such an absolutely unique voice - imported from Canada :) - hard to get here CDs, but they pop up on Amazon & Ebay. Mazda makes her CDs sing like no other tubes, so... before you reject them, try them - you will be amazed, with the right music (Diana Panton for example ;). The freaking things could be expensive - but that's the beauty of Crack - it only takes one tube in preamp :)
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I try to post my experiences......
You know, I probably wouldn't mind reading your great walls of text so much, if you didn't keep pimping you own personal website all the time. You may not be selling anything, but the PPV ad at the bottom doesn't really bode well.
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:) I completely forgot about the ad. It was an experiment I did some time ago, but since it was all the way on the bottom, it completely slipped my mind. The ad is gone now.
The site is really designed with a single purpose in mind - to help others with tube selection. I think a claim that tubes sound different in different amp is somewhat misleading. There are great tubes that sound great everywhere. There are bad tubes that sound horrific everywhere. I went through the majority of the tubes through now 5 amps (building my 6th amp now) and the sonic results are quite the same. There are cases when circuitry doesn't allow the tube to shine, but it still sounds great. When I started with tubes, I was absolutely confused and lost - there are so many choices and the most obvious ones are very expensive, but there are superb tube for a reasonable price, but they are fairly unknown. So I invite everybody to contribute and help everybody else.
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I'm in the Output tube rolling mode right now :) The first one I got was Bendix 6080WB (waiting for 7236 & Sylvania GB 6080). It looks like Crack was shipped with Bendix before, but then changed to other tube - not sure what the reason was. In general, I felt that this tube provided a better balance across the spectrum compared to 5998. Tung-sol does have more powerful bass, but it comes at an expense of overemphasizing LF and making things much darker than they should be in reality - you can balance it by using brighter tubes - RCA 12au7 Long Gray Plates - without loosing creaminess. On the other hand, I felt that Bendix provided more clarity in instruments - each instrument was much easier to separate compared to 5998. There was a significant improvement in clarity when playing Chantal, Marga Etoile(Sopran)-Lulle, Lullay And Lullabye. The sound is definitely thinner than 5998, but more balanced & dynamic. One negative, the darn thing is hard to roll - it gets extremely hot!!! but it's built like a tank, the plate structure is very cool looking and a slit in the middle plates - is like a window into a soul ;)
Had anybody else try the two tubes? Any impressions?
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It's got to be a relative thing if you think that the 5998 overemphasizes the LF. I dont have a Bendix to compare but dont find that to remotely be the case comparing the 5998 with any of the 6080's or 6AS7's that I do have, including the Svetlana 6H13C.
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It's got to be a relative thing if you think that the 5998 overemphasizes the LF. I dont have a Bendix to compare but dont find that to remotely be the case comparing the 5998 with any of the 6080's or 6AS7's that I do have, including the Svetlana 6H13C.
That's quite true. When I use 5998 or 6h12c and play Melody Gardot she sounds much older than she is. Also, low notes on the piano sound much lower than they would with a real piano - I asked my wire to play a piano passage for me - and then I run to listen to the same passage on with my amp :) the results - with Bendix came much closer to the real piano. This definitely depends on the input tube, but in both cases I used Mullard 12au7 Long Plates (BTW, this is a killer tube - quite dark, but the amount of nuances it can communicate!!!). My headphones are quite balanced (Sennheiser HD650), so they shouldn't lean towards LF. BTW, my goal is to get the amp as close to real sound as possible (SS can't produce natural sound as it would be in reality -way to sharp) - which is not exactly the vintage sound that a lot of people are buying tube amps for. I do enjoy vintage sound with some music, but definitely not all. I know how to get the vintage sound :) - Westinghouse 6SN7 or 12au7 get me right there. With natural sound... I'm still looking, but Bendix gets me a step closer.
I've been using Bendix for 2 days now. The amp gets much hotter than with other tubes. So far very pleased. Anybody needs 5998??? Just kidding - I'm planning to keep the tubes. On the other note, I've heard that 7236 is very close in sound to Bendix - Very dynamic tube. I should get it this week and will report on my findings. One is selling right now on ebay for $19. I bought from the same seller, but he puts them out one at a time.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cetron-7236-Military-Vacuum-Tube-PN-3213999-/320906292086?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item4ab7816b76#ht_1254wt_1168
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7236 is supposedly a computer rated 5998A (not 5998). The 5998 and 5998A are a bit different tube. Quite a bit of info out there for both the 5998a and the 7236 and it's a mixed bag. I havent had the interest to try either and the reviews havent swayed me. But it's cool that you are trying everything that you can get your hands on. Rolling is fun but I have to set my limit. Money being spent elswhere lately on other things that, for the time being are getting seemingly scarcer (and expensive) that NOS vac tubes ... It is another Presidential election year and demand for items necessary for one of my other interests always skyrockets during election years. I'll leave it at that ;)
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I have been playing around with the 7236, 6336A, and 6528A lately. Like the sound of the 6336A/6528A over the 7236, not really much difference here, if any at all. The 6528A has become my tube of choice, but I really believe that it is because I like the looks of this extremely rugged tube over the other two (6528A is just slightly larger than the 6336A). These tubes run extremely hot!!!
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I have been playing around with the 7236, 6336A, and 6528A lately. Like the sound of the 6336A/6528A over the 7236, not really much difference here, if any at all. The 6528A has become my tube of choice, but I really believe that it is because I like the looks of this extremely rugged tube over the other two (6528A is just slightly larger than the 6336A). These tubes run extremely hot!!!
So this is interesting. 6528 * 6336 draw 5A of heater current, but structurally they looks similar to Bendix 6080 - that might explain why Bendix takes 15 seconds to start playing and gets everything hot. Although, it's very interesting that Bendix being marked as 6080 would draw more current. I would have to try 6528.
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I thought the Crack transformer was only capable of 3.5 amps, max, for filament supply for both tubes . Or is it 3 amps? Or am I just nuts. If it's what I think it is, it probably isnt much wonder why the amp is running hot.
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Desmond, you are correct, I installed an additional 3A filament transformer..
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Desmond, you are correct, I installed an additional 3A filament transformer..
I hope that's a misprint, if you're drawing over 5 amps!
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Desmond, you are correct, I installed an additional 3A filament transformer..
Got it. I was wondering how in the heck it was running at all ;D
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I got all the tubes in and did some rolling. Very short summary. All tubes are awesome and add their unique character to any music.
5998 - very relaxed, very deep. very smooth. The reference tube.
7236 - very close to 5998 at a fraction of the cost (~$20). It's not as relaxed, but at the same time more dynamic.
Sylvania Gold Brand 6080 - very liquid tube, you just want to continue listening. The price is unbelievable - $9 a tube!
Bendix 6080 - very dynamic, very detailed - superb performance during complex passages, separates instruments like no other - think Mozart Sym. 41. Very hard to find :(
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Picked up an Amperex/Valvo Bugle Boy 12AU7 made in 1957 at Hamburg according to the information I have about the date code. May be the best sounding 12au7 I've heard in the Crack with NOS RCA 6AS7 and HD 650s.
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Got a couple RCA branded 6AS7 tubes from the mid 1950's. Both are black plates. Both are great sounding tubes.. At $9.95 for the pair plus $5.50 shipping a good bargain. Looking for a 5998 and WE 421a but not willing to pay the high prices.
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This looks interesting!....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-RAREST-12AX7-TYPE-TUBE-EVER-MADE-ONLY-ONE-SAMPLE-CIRCUTTRON-OR-12AU7-NOS-NIB-/290717388630?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item43b01b4f56
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Got a couple RCA branded 6AS7 tubes from the mid 1950's. Both are black plates. Both are great sounding tubes.. At $9.95 for the pair plus $5.50 shipping a good bargain. Looking for a 5998 and WE 421a but not willing to pay the high prices.
Related to your other post as well ... I have a few Amperex Holland (Herleen) 12AU7's and they are probably my favorite 12AU7's for Crack. Maybe not exactly your Hamburg Amperex but I bet it shares similiar sonics so I think I understand your liking this tube. And I agree, they sound great with the RCA 6AS7's ... or atleast my Herleen tubes do. Also great with the 5998 so hopefully you can find one and see, or hear, for yourself. Those 5998's were always a bit elusive from what I understand but really elusive lately. I was fortunate to find the ones I have when I did. All mine were purchased as used but 2 of the 3 that I have were tested as new and even look like they could have been NOS. The 3rd had a bit of use but still tests very strong (emission tester anyway) and sounds great. They are all different ... same dimpled plates as all of them but different getter (top, bottom). They all sound the same, regardless. To my ear anyway. Im sure you'll find one or two. I got lucky when I found mine.
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I've always had good luck with ebay 12au7's but I've just had my 3rd 5998 refunded for having a weak right channel. For all the trouble I wish I had just bought a 421a from a more reliable source. The two are very similar, but to my limited experience, the 421a is slightly more transparent while the 5998 has a slightly bigger presentation (perhaps more bass impact?). Hopefully I will be comparing again soon. 4th time a charmer I hope, as its on its way!
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I've noticed that output tube rolling has tended to be more of a crapshoot than the driver. Case in point: I bought two NOS 6AS7G tubes on eBay and both hum and/or emit a high-order harmonic of 60Hz hum - one noticeably - and that was followed by a 7236 that had no cathode emission. The 5998 I owned before that was very microphonic. Turns out the quietest and most reliable tube I've found so far was the original, lowly 6080 supplied with the kit. It's dead quiet - but seems to be a bit bland or lacking in character compared to other tubes I've tried.
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I actually had a fairly good experience with output tubes on Ebay. I got all the tubes mentioned before (about 10 in total) without any problems. I was about to return GB 6080 due to crackling noise in one of the channels, but after I contacted seller, I figured out that the noise was coming from driver tube - the seller was very relieved :). Even the 5998s that I got recently which were listed as weak are performing admirably and test quite well. Ebay is definitely a lottery, but with protection :)
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Here is an interesting tube that I recently found by accident. Sylvania JHS 12au7 Black Plates. It's the 12au7 version not the 5814 - 5814 has a different plate structure. I rolled that tube yesterday and compared this to JHS 5814 & JHS 6183 - all black plates. This tube won hand down. Very creamy and lushes sound with superb bass. I couldn't find info about that tube anywhere, so want to share my finding with the community. A very cool, cheap and unique tube. I rolled with along with CBS-Hytron 5814 from 1954 - and this one won :) Not just me, but I tried this with a few friends as well, all of them agreed in the blind testing that JHS 12au7 is more creamy and has more body.
If you are interested in the full review (it has a large picture) - you know where to find it :)
http://tubemaze.info/sylvania-jhs-12au7-black-plates/
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A quick note here; many tubes are available as used, and are often tested for emission. Low emission would be a problem if you were pushing the limit on current. Specs are variable but I see 125mA for a 6080WA and 140mA for a 5998A. Crack only needs 30mA; even our experimental high-current Crack is running 60mA or less.
I'm not saying every weak tube will still sound good, just that it's always worth actually listening before making judgements.
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A quick note here; many tubes are available as used, and are often tested for emission. Low emission would be a problem if you were pushing the limit on current. Specs are variable but I see 125mA for a 6080WA and 140mA for a 5998A. Crack only needs 30mA; even our experimental high-current Crack is running 60mA or less.
I'm not saying every weak tube will still sound good, just that it's always worth actually listening before making judgements.
Ahh. So that makes a lot of sense. Even more savings with Crack!!! What about Driver tube? How hard is it being pushed? I definitely see immediate issues with tubes with emission below 85%.
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I finally got my hands on Amperex 7316 - the legend, the "holly grail", the ultimate tube, the ... Not to me. There are equal tubes and tubes that do a better job in some areas. See the full review: http://tubemaze.info/amprex-7316-short-plates
Note: This is my personal OPINION based on rolling over 110 tubes in Crack :)
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I finally got my hands on Amperex 7316 - the legend, the "holly grail", the ultimate tube, the ... Not to me. There are equal tubes and tubes that do a better job in some areas. See the full review: http://tubemaze.info/amprex-7316-short-plates
Note: This is my personal OPINION based on rolling over 110 tubes in Crack :)
I actually feel the same way, so much hype for this tube, but I don't think it's all that special. Overall too bright for my tastes, but then again I do use dt880s which are fairly bright phones to begin with.
Anyway, I only paid 5$ for my 7316, so no big loss there. ;D
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Nick,
Have you tried the E80CC in the Crack? I have been thinking about getting it for mine, because there has been favorable talk on this post about it.
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I decided to give the 12AU7 RCA clear tops a try since they are reasonably priced. From some of the reviews it seems like a good sounding tube.
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Nick,
Have you tried the E80CC in the Crack? I have been thinking about getting it for mine, because there has been favorable talk on this post about it.
I have one coming from Ukraine in about a week or two. From what I've read Tangsram is even better than Phillips. Stay tuned. I will report as soon I as I get it and go through a burn in period.
I decided to give the 12AU7 RCA clear tops a try since they are reasonably priced. From some of the reviews it seems like a good sounding tube.
Let me know if you need some, I have quite a few of them (about 20!) - got carried away :) I can sell them for $20 for 2 including shipping.
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I finally got my hands on Amperex 7316 - the legend, the "holly grail", the ultimate tube, the ... Not to me. There are equal tubes and tubes that do a better job in some areas. See the full review: http://tubemaze.info/amprex-7316-short-plates
Note: This is my personal OPINION based on rolling over 110 tubes in Crack :)
I'm with ya, this is a great tube but I prefer the late 50's amperex bb w/ long plates and foil...or the siemens chrome...
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I'm with ya, this is a great tube but I prefer the late 50's amperex bb w/ long plates and foil...or the siemens chrome...
So yesterday at around 2 am in the morning O_o, I was able to get my hands on a pair of the 50's Amperex 7316 BB Long Plates and foil !!! Can't wait to get that tube - that should be interesting... because 12au7 Amperex BB Long Plates and foil is absolutely my favorite tube. I haven't had a chance to get my hands on Siemens Chrome, but I've read a lot of very great reviews about the tube. the time will come for that tube as well :)
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Reporting back now that I had a chance to to listen to Amperex 7316 Long Plates with D-getter Foil, I have to say - DARN!!! that tube is the best thing that I've ever had a pleasure to listen to - just remember that I tried pretty much every tube type out there. I played for about 2 hours flipping between Amperex 12au7 BB Long Foil and that tube and at first it was not very obvious that 7316 was better, but the more I listened to that tube the less I wanted to listen to 12au7 (remember I was in love with 12au7 - love is such a flimsy thing :) So two hours later with my ears bleeding - wait - I meant my ears smiling with pleasure - it was hands down 7316. The amount of undertones that tube communicated was just phenomenal and the gentleness that it carried female voice with was just unbelievable - amount of details was also through the roof - there were passages in songs that I listened to for 200-300 times that I didn't hear before!!!! It appears that there is more air to the sound of 7316 and bass is more balanced than 12au7 (some of you might be disappointed by the fact, since the bass is not superbly pronounced - like it is in Mullard or RCA BP - it's lighter and IMHO is much more balanced). So there, if you come across a pair at 2 am in the morning for a great price, take it!!! This will be the last tube you will be rolling :)
Update: Interestingly enough, after the listening session, we did blind testing, between Mullard 12au7 LP, Amperex 12au7 LP and Amperex 7316 LP. It was extremely easy to separate both Amperexes and Mullard - proving that despite some opinions that 12au7 & 7316 from the same era (both tubes were from Harleen factory made in 1958) sound the same - they sound very differently.
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Just got 12au7 RCA clear tops and really like them. They let the music through. It reminds me of the Mazda tube. I also got the Control 7236. This is a nice sounding tube as well. I had it paired with the Mullard 4003 and found it to be a little to tubie. The RCA works well with the 7236, but I want to try the Mazda with it. I'm thinkling this would also be a good combination.
I want to let people understand that I'm not analytical about my observations. In the past I would listen to the same tracks over and over to determine what I thought sounded better. Now I want to see if I'm just enjoying the music. Maybe after 30 years of listening to the equipment I'm actually listening to the music.
I do so enjoy building these great bottlehead kits, and now understand that the music and the building are to different enjoyments and passions.
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Another interesting find for the amp - RCA 6189 3 mica black plates. Very open, inviting sound - the richness of black plates and superb amount of details - very low distortion. I've read somewhere that 6189 was an answer to e82cc from Europe. Can anybody confirm this?
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I thought that the 6189 was basically a ruggedized 12AU7 ... a drop-in sub with, maybe, slightly different specs. I have a few and I think most are JAN or JG tubes and/or have triple mica spacers. I dont know how that relates to the ECC82. I thought that the ECC82 was just the Euro designation for and equivalent of 12AU7. But Im not a tube historian or even a tube buff.
Have you tried any of the "lowly" GE's? Either the 12AU7's or the variants (6189, 5814). Ive been largely disenchanted with the relatively small number of different GE tube types Ive tried in general but some of the GE 12AU7's and drop in subs I really like in Crack. I dont think they would be your favorites based on what I think your sonic preferences are but just curious if you have tried any. I have a couple 12AU7's (1950's I think) and, I believe a couple GE BP 5814's that are really great. They are right there with my favorites which are the Herleen made tubes. I have 2 or 3 Amperex relabels and a couple tubes that I bought with no silk screen brand labels that were sold as Philips - Herleen tubes. I believe they are labeled ECC82 (Herleen Delta code prefix is present). I dont know exactly what they are but all of the relatively few Hollan made tubes that I have are among my favorites along with a few of those GE's I mention. Im not a tube snob at all but it still surprises me that I am fond of these GE's because of my not being impressed with the brand in other gear in the past.
All that said, Im still running and enjoying the 12BH7.
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I want to let people understand that I'm not analytical about my observations. In the past I would listen to the same tracks over and over to determine what I thought sounded better. Now I want to see if I'm just enjoying the music. Maybe after 30 years of listening to the equipment I'm actually listening to the music.
That's the only way I choose tubes these days. I'll do some pretty quick rolling at first to try and get a sense of the different tubes. But after that, I just listen. I dont listen for anything, I just listen to the music and the tube kinda chooses itself.
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I find data sheets on the web for 6189s by Philips, Mazda, Lorenz (=e82cc), Tung-Sol, and Telefunken (=ecc802s). Ruggedized (shock and vibration) and specified for many turn on/turn off cycles, but otherwise the same as a 12AU7.
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I thought that the 6189 was basically a ruggedized 12AU7 ... a drop-in sub with, maybe, slightly different specs. I have a few and I think most are JAN or JG tubes and/or have triple mica spacers. I dont know how that relates to the ECC82. I thought that the ECC82 was just the Euro designation for and equivalent of 12AU7. But Im not a tube historian or even a tube buff.
Have you tried any of the "lowly" GE's? Either the 12AU7's or the variants (6189, 5814). Ive been largely disenchanted with the relatively small number of different GE tube types Ive tried in general but some of the GE 12AU7's and drop in subs I really like in Crack. I dont think they would be your favorites based on what I think your sonic preferences are but just curious if you have tried any. I have a couple 12AU7's (1950's I think) and, I believe a couple GE BP 5814's that are really great. They are right there with my favorites which are the Herleen made tubes. I have 2 or 3 Amperex relabels and a couple tubes that I bought with no silk screen brand labels that were sold as Philips - Herleen tubes. I believe they are labeled ECC82 (Herleen Delta code prefix is present). I dont know exactly what they are but all of the relatively few Hollan made tubes that I have are among my favorites along with a few of those GE's I mention. Im not a tube snob at all but it still surprises me that I am fond of these GE's because of my not being impressed with the brand in other gear in the past.
All that said, Im still running and enjoying the 12BH7.
I tried about every conceivable variation on GE theme. I do like GE 5814 BP 3 mica. They sound very similar (practically the same) as RCA 5814 3 mica at a huge discount. Gray plates, definitely not my favorite - I find their sound sharp at the top, can't listen for long. GE 12au7 Gray Long Plates are not bad, but still the sharpness for me is there.
About 12BH7, a lot of people love the tubes, but I just can't stand them, they sound very glassy to me :( I sold every single one I had.
About 6189, I think it's like 5814 in relationship to 12au7 - the specs are the same, but more care and QA goes into selection of the tubes, so the final result is better. this is just my thought.
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Never to be one to leave well enough alone, I re-wired the noval socket to suit a handful of near-NOS 6CG7's I won on eBay for rather cheap. Since the black wire that was already there wasn't quite long enough to reach pin 4, I re-did the heater wiring with some Belden shielded cable, and took pin 9 (shield) to the chassis ground. The result? I have a new favorite. Great soundstage, warm mids, and really sweet HF that reminds me of my SEX amp. This makes sense, as the small triode on the 6DN7 is essentially half of a 6SN7, and the 6CG7 is just a 6SN7 in a different-sized bottle.
I was afraid these might sound more "tubey" than the 12BH7 or RCA clear-top 12AU7 I had been using lately, but that's not been the case. The three RCA tubes I acquired look to be from the 1950's or very early 1960's, before the "meatball" logo disappeared. The have huge, dark-colored plates and there is a shield between sections, which was taken to ground. My understanding is that the shields were added due to the sections being shoved so close together compared to the octal 6SN7, increasing the chances of crosstalk between channels.
I also stuck a 6922EH in there for kicks, since the operating point seems similar to that of the Seduction (e.g., Agilent HLMP-6000 LED bias (~1.56V) and about 75V on the plates). The sound was definitely more clinical and "modern," in addition to a smaller soundstage than the aforementioned 6CG7. Not a fan. I've found this to be the case anytime a higher-mu tube is added, such as the E80cc. The extra gain makes for a more forward (and I'd argue, fatiguing) presentation.
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Well... reporting back on the E80CC I have one from Tungsram. A fantastic tube - there were reports that it's better than short plate 7316 by Amperex and I have to agree. It's not better than the long plate version, but it's not worst - it's just very different. Compared to short plate version, it's a more capable tube - you can feel that it can carry music with such an incredible authority and ease. Very balance sound. Powerful bass, great amount of details, very good separation of instruments. All is there. If you like dynamic sound with huge transparency, try it out, it's definitely worth it.
However, I've been completely distracted by the other shipment that I got recently - Tesla E83CC the replica of Telefunkens ECC803S. When I put it into my Crack (I have a version that takes 12ax7) and started to play my jaw dropped. This was completely unbelievable - there is no talk about transparency, details, etc. The tube brings the music, the singer, the band right into your house! I later tried it in McIntosh and I couldn't believe that my amp and speakers could produce this kind of sound. I'm completely blown away. Now I must try other S versions. My poor budget.
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I've found a very nice sounding combination for my Crack in e RCA 12au7 clear top and RCA 6AS7G black plate. I tried the clear top with other power tubes and was not as engaged. This is a clear bag for
the buck combination. Both tubes can be had for a reasonable price and provide a dinamic clean detailed sound.
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I agree with BNAL the clear top and black plate is a very good combination. One I keep going back too.
Has anyone ever seen a NOS Mullard made in America 6AS7G or this just a rebranded RCA tube? It's a bottom D getter.
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I've got a bunch of the RCA Clear Top 12AU7's . Not my favorites with Crack. Not bad with the RCA or GE JAN labeled 6AS7 but definitely too much with the 5998. Not my preference either way. But I have one or two in use in the main systems. But I find the Cleartops a little too hot up top in the heaphone system. It could be the Beyerdynamics. That said, I agree that they are nice tubes in the right system and a real good bang for the buck tube.
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I've got a bunch of the RCA Clear Top 12AU7's . Not my favorites with Crack. Not bad with the RCA or GE JAN labeled 6AS7 but definitely too much with the 5998. Not my preference either way. But I have one or two in use in the main systems. But I find the Cleartops a little too hot up top in the heaphone system. It could be the Beyerdynamics. That said, I agree that they are nice tubes in the right system and a real good bang for the buck tube.
I agree. Clear Top compensates for early roll off in HF of RCA, so the combo is great, but with 5998, which already has great HF extension Cleat tops are just too much. 5998 asks for a much more balanced tube. The best combo that I found was with Amperes, either short or long plates. Mulllards are way too dark. ECC803S is phenomenal, but requires mods. E80CC or Raytheon 5814 Windmill is the middle ground and with 5998 provides incredible sound if you area looking for Dynamics. If you are into warmth, Westinghouse or RCA will give you that. If you are into feeling of presence- outside of Tele ECC803S (which cost like my first car) nothing compares to Mazda.
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I agree with BNAL the clear top and black plate is a very good combination. One I keep going back too.
Has anyone ever seen a NOS Mullard made in America 6AS7G or this just a rebranded RCA tube? It's a bottom D getter.
Got this tube today. It's a strange one but sounds great. The box has Mullard and BVA (British Valve Assocation) on the end with Mullard made in USA on the tube base. I can't find anything on USA made Mullards. I know the Mullard name has been sold a couple times to IEC and another US company who currently owns it.
It doesn't look like any RCA's I've seen, more like a Tung Sol 5998 with the bottom D getters or WE 421a. Guess it really doesn't matter as long as it sounds good. It's a little cleaner than the RCA Black Plates with a brighter top end.
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I agree with BNAL the clear top and black plate is a very good combination. One I keep going back too.
Has anyone ever seen a NOS Mullard made in America 6AS7G or this just a rebranded RCA tube? It's a bottom D getter.
Got this tube today. It's a strange one but sounds great. The box has Mullard and BVA (British Valve Assocation) on the end with Mullard made in USA on the tube base. I can't find anything on USA made Mullards. I know the Mullard name has been sold a couple times to IEC and another US company who currently owns it.
It doesn't look like any RCA's I've seen, more like a Tung Sol 5998 with the bottom D getters or WE 421a. Guess it really doesn't matter as long as it sounds good. It's a little cleaner than the RCA Black Plates with a brighter top end.
Can you post a pic? I have a few 6AS7's I could compare with.
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I'll try and get some pics of the Mullard made in USA 6AS7G up. In the mean time got a couple of NOS Tung Sol 5814a's. The box has a packaged date of 04/57. Another good sounding tube. At a fraction of the price of the Mullards, Bugle Boys, Valvo, Siemens......
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I'll try and get some pics of the Mullard made in USA 6AS7G up. In the mean time got a couple of NOS Tung Sol 5814a's. The box has a packaged date of 04/57. Another good sounding tube. At a fraction of the price of the Mullards, Bugle Boys, Valvo, Siemens......
Tung-sol 5814 as well as 5751 are superb tubes and grossly undervalued. They have a superbly liquid sound!
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Here's a pic of the tube.
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Here's a pic of the tube.
Looks like a GE ... maybe. I'll dig my 6AS7's out and look but first thought was GE. I think I have two, both smaller bottles than the RCA's.
I've linked an ebay listing with a photo of a GE. Looks similiar from quick glance. Is it a smaller bottle than your RCA 6AS7's, if you have any?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ONE-6AS7-G-GENERAL-ELECTRIC-TUBE-N-O-S-TESTED-/221043253392?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item3377346090
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Here's a pic of the tube.
Looks like a GE ... maybe. I'll dig my 6AS7's out and look but first thought was GE. I think I have two, both smaller bottles than the RCA's.
I've linked an ebay listing with a photo of a GE. Looks similiar from quick glance. Is it a smaller bottle than your RCA 6AS7's, if you have any?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ONE-6AS7-G-GENERAL-ELECTRIC-TUBE-N-O-S-TESTED-/221043253392?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item3377346090
It's the same size as my RCA's. I compaired it to a Black Plate with a code date of 58-39.
It very well might be a GE tube. With all the rebranding and lack of information now days I might never know for sure.
It's still a fun hobby learning about the old tubes and searching for that great find.
Thanks for the help.
Here's a very close match
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Got one that looks just like it. It is labeled GE but could be RCA manufactured. Same size as my RCA labeled tubes except for one which has thin copper skirts/shield at the bottom and is a little bit taller. Bottle looks a little wider as well but it may be an illusion. Anyway, they all sound good and all have slight internal variations. Havent spent enough time with them all to listen for differences that may make some signifigantly better than others.
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Hmm. I discovered in my collection something that I didn't know exists :) Tung-sol 12au7 with Black Glass & Black Plates. So I compered the gray plates version with black plates - both black glass. I honestly like black plates more, could be just psychological :) It has more body and warmer sounding, but details remained the same! Very cool tube.
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Hmm. I discovered in my collection something that I didn't know exists :) Tung-sol 12au7 with Black Glass & Black Plates. So I compered the gray plates version with black plates - both black glass. I honestly like black plates more, could be just psychological :) It has more body and warmer sounding, but details remained the same! Very cool tube.
Ok, so I'm wondering how you know its a black plate if its black glass! ???please post a pic!! ;)
gotta see this!
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Hmm. I discovered in my collection something that I didn't know exists :) Tung-sol 12au7 with Black Glass & Black Plates. So I compered the gray plates version with black plates - both black glass. I honestly like black plates more, could be just psychological :) It has more body and warmer sounding, but details remained the same! Very cool tube.
Ok, so I'm wondering how you know its a black plate if its black glass! ???please post a pic!! ;)
gotta see this!
Here you go, it's hard to see because of the black glass, but the difference is big - one is mate gray plates - the usual ones; second is SHINY black plates. Kind of cool. The 12ax7 Tung-sol with black plates has mate black plates. Anybody has any more info about the tube? I couldn't find anything.
http://tubemaze.info/tung-sol-12au7-black-plates-black-glass/dsc04220/
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Your picture shows a couple of tubes with either flashed barium gettering or aquadag interior coating, both of which Tung-Sol used. Too much of the tubes is cropped out of the picture to say for sure. There is no black glass in the picture.
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Your picture shows a couple of tubes with either flashed barium gettering or aquadag interior coating, both of which Tung-Sol used. Too much of the tubes is cropped out of the picture to say for sure. There is no black glass in the picture.
I tried to focus on the area that shows plates :) Here is the full picture
http://tubemaze.info/tung-sol-12au7-black-plates-black-glass/tung-sol-12au7-black-plates-black-glass/
Both have []-getter and otherwise are indistinguishable from one another, except for the plates.
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That is an internal coating. Tung Sol used it quite a bit, and you will see it on other brands as well, for example a lot of early 6V6s, 6SL7s etc have it. Appears to be Aquadag, though that was generally used as a screen rather than a getter AFAIK so I'm not sure if that's what it is.
.
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Picked up some Tung Sol 5998's today. What a great sounding tube. They have a more open and detailed sound over the RCA black plates I've been using. Been swapping out 12au7 and 12BH7's to find the best sound. Hell, they all sound good. Haven't found a favorite yet.
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Where were you able to find some 5998s? I've been half-heartedly trying to find more of them as backups.
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Where were you able to find some 5998s? I've been half-heartedly trying to find more of them as backups.
Picked up 3 from a seller on Ebay.
Took awhile to find some at the right price.
Still looking for a deal on some WE 421a's.
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Another interesting find - GE 5963 Black Plates - I usually don't expect much from GE, but this was a very nice surprise. Great tube! Check out the review:
http://tubemaze.info/ge-5963-black-plates/
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Today I received two tubes that I've been hunting for a very long time. Mullard CV491 Long Plates and Tung-Sol 7236. WOW! The Mullard is the most dynamic and punchy tube that I've ever heard - the music is warm but is superbly fast an that is assisted by the speed of Tung-Sol... absolutely to die for combo.
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A novice question,
when tube rolling is there a need or would it be good practice to verify the voltages again?....or just insert tube and listen?
I have a CV4003 and RCA 6AS7G on the way and am anxious to hear.
Thanks!
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ditto, I have the same combo on the way, Great choice Wullymc! (well, i guess i don't know if its a great choice just yet, find out early next week.)
First tube rolling experience - so I'm pretty curious! In addition, would it be wise to substitute in one and spend some time with it? I want to avoid making too many changes at once so I understand how the sound is affected. Any opinion on which one I should I roll first, power or driver?
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HI!
Is the 2399 = to the 5998/421a?
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Correct, Chatham [and possibly some others] seem to have used 2399 instead of 5998, not sure why.
You can sometimes get a good deal on those ... and that could just be the reason why you ask. Good luck.
HI!
Is the 2399 = to the 5998/421a?
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A novice question,
when tube rolling is there a need or would it be good practice to verify the voltages again?....or just insert tube and listen?
I have a CV4003 and RCA 6AS7G on the way and am anxious to hear.
Thanks!
I haven't worried too much about checking voltage levels after a tube substitution. The voltage readings will vary some from one tube type to another. I did look at the voltage readings after dropping in the 5998, just curious, and the levels were higher across the board. If you were to attempt to roll in a tube that is not considered a direct replacement for each tube type, it might be wise to check your operating points. I have found the CV4003 to be an excellent choice for the Crack, have not tried the 6AS7G so I can't comment on that one.
Cheers,
Shawn
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HI!
Is the 2399 = to the 5998/421a?
I have one. 2399 was supposedly an internal part number for the 5998. It is the same, Tungsol tube despite there being a little bit of debate about it around the web.
The 5998 is probably not the exact same tube as the WE 421a based on web concensus. There is more debate about that than 2399 = 5998 ;D
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Cool, How does it sound to you?
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Cool, How does it sound to you?
It's a nice tube, sounds just like the 2 other 5998's I have. There is some variation in the 5998's in terms of internal construction. More specific, the getter. Some are clear top, bottom getter. Some are top getter. I have each and they all sound the same to me. Higher gain tube than 6AS7 and 6080. There are descriptions within this thread, but basically it's just a bit cleaner and more detailed up top and possibly a little more extended. Wonderful midrange and tight on the bottom end. To my ear, the 6AS7 is a little warmer, maybe a little more bass impact. But still not sure on the latter as the 5998 detail and extension up top may account for it. I think it's a great tube and worth finding one if you can for a fair price. You may end up seeking a spare or two, I did. I could live very happily with the 6AS7 but think that the 5998 is a little bit nicer sounding tube. That said, I wouldnt have one if I had to pay $100 for it. I ended up paying a total of $115 for the 3 that I have. They were all used but excellent.
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The 5998's are good sounding tubes but hard to find. I picked up 3 for a hundred bucks plus shipping off Ebay.
The Western Electric 421a's are very hard to find and are selling for way to much IMO.
1950's RCA Black Plate 6AS7 or 6AS7G tubes are a good choice if you can't find any 5998s.
The 5998's have more gain than the 6AS7 tubes with a little cleaner sound, more detail and top end.
A good 6AS7 with a Bugle Boy, Mullard CV4003, Phillips Mini Watt or Siemens Silver Plate tube to drive it makes a great sounding setup.
Which ever way you go have fun with a great sounding amp and watch the prices for a good deal.
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is the extra gain from the 5998 a substantial amount? With the stock tubes, I feel like I already don't have a lot of the volume control to play with.
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I'm not having that problem with mine running HD650 phones and Alps pot in my Crack.
My setup is PC with optical output to my DAC and RCA connections to the Crack.
Using Foobar with Wasapi (Windows Audio Session API) output for Flac files.
You could always pad the volume pot in the Crack with a resistor or I've used the volume control in Foobar to reduce the input to the DAC.
As there's no volume control on the DAC.
I've always heard it's better to control the volume on the analog side than the digital side.
Mine runs about 9 oclock on the Crack volume control with a 5998 tube and around 10 to 11 oclock with a 6AS7 RCA black plates.
Hope this helps.
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is the extra gain from the 5998 a substantial amount? With the stock tubes, I feel like I already don't have a lot of the volume control to play with.
It's enough that if you dont have much volume to play with now it will get even tighter. But as suggested, sounds like it may help padding as it is now. That would be the solution, if needed, with the 5998.
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I am using:
hd-600 - crack - marantz sa8001= not a lot of volume to play with, I suspect the marantz has a high output.
hd-600 - crack - dac - mac optical out = a little bit more volume play, but not much.
I have no ability to control volume from the marantz and don't really want to control the volume from the digital side. Padding sounds like the way to go.
Is it possible to tame the impact of the extra gain with a complimentary driver tube? In addition to the 5998, I have a mullard cv4003 on the way.
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Tubes are amplification devices. Tube design and application control the gain. 12Au7's are medium MU (gain) devices along with the other compatible tubes for the Crack. So there's not much you can do with the tubes. I've noticed the 12BH7 and E80CC tubes have a little more gain than a ECC82/12AU7 but that's not going to help you. I haven't tried padding the volume pot and I'm not sure if there are any negative impacts. Hopefully someone will chime in with more or better recommendations.
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Yes, I understand that a tube is designed for amplification, and thanks for the input on the 12bh7 and E80CC. Having the extra gain, I would stay away from those until I pad the pot. I get to full volume at about 830-9 o'clock with the stock 6080 and 12au7 - (but I'll take my questions on padding to another thread).
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Im running a 12BH7 and I thought they were actually lower "gain" than 12AU7 (around 17 versus 20, from memory) although I cant recall noticing a whole lot of difference. Maybe it's the way the drivers are used in the circuit. One of my sources is a Tjoeb 99 CDP which supposedly has an output in the 3.5 volt range. Im not so sure it's that high but it's definitely higher than my 2 volt digital source. My main phones are Beyers though which have a lower sensitivity than the Senns. My AKG 601's are lower still. My Quarts are higher than the Beyers and dont get a ton of use but I have enough play in the pot with those as well. I think most of the volume control range issues discussed on the forum have been with Senn phones. I assume that's because their higher sensitivity but it could just be their popularity, or a combination of the two. Then again, listening level has a major impact as well as, not just the source, but the source material. My CD's and LP's can be all over the place. But I tend to listen louder than I probably should at times ;)
Anyway, below is a link to a pre-attenuation method on the Goldpoint site. It is only 2 resistors and signal passes directly through only one of them. I would have no problem with using it if needed. Wouldnt cost an arm and a leg to implement using quality resistors. Of course, you need 4 resistors, 2 per channel. Anyway, resistor values listed are based on the value of the pot and desired amount of pre-attenuation/padding. You could experiment with cheap resistors to find out how much you need and then swap in some better resistors. Vishay RN's would probably be a good, budget concious choice but the sky is the limit just like anything audio ;D
http://www.goldpt.com/mods.html
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The output tube is used as a cathode follower, so the gain of that stage is always a bit less than 1.0. Into a high impedance, the 6AS7 might have a fain of 0.65, vs. 0.8 or so for a 5998. For lower impedance phones, it's a little more complicated but in all cases the difference in gain between tubes will be small, maybe 1 or 2 dB.
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Thanks for the helpful link. I was able to put in a 6as7g and I actually find it more tolerable at the same volume levels than the 6080. We'll see about the 5998, I'm definitely interested in putting the pad as suggested. Since I read electric schematics at a first grade level (the lines are wires right?), I'll give it a shot, but will post to make sure my implementation is proper.
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Thanks for the helpful link. I was able to put in a 6as7g and I actually find it more tolerable at the same volume levels than the 6080. We'll see about the 5998, I'm definitely interested in putting the pad as suggested. Since I read electric schematics at a first grade level (the lines are wires right?), I'll give it a shot, but will post to make sure my implementation is proper.
Me too, in terms of schematic reading skills. This ones easy though. Resitor 1 (RP1) just goes inline between the signal wire from the RCA input jack and the pots input. Resistor 2 (RP2) would solder from the input of the pot to the pots ground (you can just twist one lead of each resistor together and that connects to the pot input ... it's the same, electrically, as connected those 2 leads seperately).
For testing, you can actually just clip some inexpensive resistors in temporarily with some small alligator clips (Radio Shack) to determine the correct amount of attenuation. You can twist one of the leads of resistor 1 to one lead of resistor 2 (maybe apply a small amount of solder to keep them together). Clip the signal input wire on the free lead of resistor one. Clip the two resistors twisted/soldered leads to input of the pot. Then clip the free lead of resistor 2 to the pots ground. Just do this for each channels input, left and right.
This is what I did when I was experimenting with the attenuation just in case I needed it. I did it with an unmounted pot and took measurments just to get an idea of how it worked. You are attenuating the input signal some so you do lose some overall, maximum "volume" compared to no attenuation. But if you arent using anywhere near the full range of the pot, you will never miss it. Also, you dont need to find the exact resistor values. Just for a rough example, if you needed a 46.6 K resistor and could only find a 47K, that would be plenty close enough.
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excellent, I hope to get to this in a day or two. The 5998 arrived and, as predicted, it did reduce the amount of volume i have to play with.
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excellent, I hope to get to this in a day or two. The 5998 arrived and, as predicted, it did reduce the amount of volume i have to play with.
Yep, figured as much. What are your initial impressions of the 5998? Like it?
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I only have an hour or two on it at this point but I did like what I heard. I immediately noticed the increased clarity that an acoustic guitar came through and the bass seemed very focused. I had a cv4003 arrive yesterday. I'm eager to listen to the pair, but I don't want to make too many changes too fast. Otherwise I have a tough time sorting through how a new piece changes the sound.
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I only have an hour or two on it at this point but I did like what I heard. I immediately noticed the increased clarity that an acoustic guitar came through and the bass seemed very focused. I had a cv4003 arrive yesterday. I'm eager to listen to the pair, but I don't want to make too many changes too fast. Otherwise I have a tough time sorting through how a new piece changes the sound.
Agreed, spend some time with the 5998 then add the CV4003. I dont have great ears but the differences between 5998 and 6AS7 or 6080 are pretty easy to distingush. For me, the differences between 12AU7's are more subtle. I really have to spend a good amount of listening time with a particular 12AU7 before trying another one. So you are definitely on the right track making slower changes. Glad you like the 5998 so far. Really nice tubes.
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I also enjoy the 5998 and found it better sounding then the 6080. But the CV4003 was a disappointment for me, sounds rather flat and lifeless. So went back to the 5998/6SN7EH and am happy as a clam.
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Interesting observation to report.....tried out a 6922 with about 400 hours on it, and the sound is very different than the burnt-in 6CG7! I can't decide which one to keep. The 6922 apparently has extremely low distortion at that operating point, or at least compared to other tubes I've tried as drivers. The sound is very modern, crisp, clean, and has great decay and space around the notes. The only downside is a more forward soundstage. On the other hand, the 6CG7 sounds more like the "tube" stereotype. It has richer harmonics and is noticeably less clean and detailed, but wins in the depth department with a slightly larger soundstage.
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What is the operating point for the 6922 that you're using?
Running properly, the 6H30Pi would be a fun one to try. With a second speedball PCB, the 6BX7 is an interesting choice also, though you'd need to shove 20ma of current through it with 5v on the cathodes for it to work well.
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I'm using the regular operating point, wired for the different pinout. This seems to be the same one as used by the Seduction, or at least the plate voltage (75V) and use of LED bias (via Agilent HLMP-6000) are similar. I'm also using the Speedball C4S to load the driver tube.
Going back and forth, I still can't decide which to chose, as the sound is almost as different as solid state versus tube. One is clean and unveiled, the other is warm and lush. A happy medium may be keep the 6922 and slip the 6080 out of the cathode follower position in favor of a warmer-sounding tube, like the Russian 6N13S.
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I'm another Crack/Speedball user firmly in the Tung Sol 5998/WE 421A camp. As Laudanum pointed out, they are not the same tube. If the data sheets can be believed, the WE 421A's amplification factor is a bit higher than the Tung Sol 5998's, and so is its transconductance. They are close, however, and for many listeners both sound better than the 6AS7G/6080, no matter who manufactured the latter. These tubes' basic electrical and operating characteristics genuinely make a significant difference in the Crack's sound. I have Tung Sol and Cetron 7236s as well, and they fall pretty much in the middle: Better than the 6AS7/6080, not as good as the 5998 or 421A. And looking at the 7236's data sheet, its MU and transconductance are lower than the 5998/421A, but significantly higher than the 6AS7/6080. The 5998 and 421A definitely impress me as bringing out the most detail in a musically necessary, not analytical or dry, way. From what I've picked up in this forum and elsewhere, I believe it's probably the effect the 5998 and the 421A have on the Crack's output impedance. These tubes lower the circuit's stated 120 ohms enough to reap damping benefits, especially with the 600 ohm DT 880 phones that I use with my amp. It's a shame that a kind of modern "tulip mania" has made so many NOS tubes--the WE 421A, the Tung Sol 5998, and now even the 7236--so expensive.
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I am also firmly in the 5998/WE 421A camp and have not used anything else in a long time [Crack & Speedball with DC heated tubes]. I personally really disliked the 7236 in this configuration and with all headphones that I use.
Your mention of "tulip mania" now including the 7236 is great news for me. I have a quite a few and tube prices always seem to be depressed during the summer months. Late fall early winter might bring some windfall resale profits for me on those ... and for that matter make other people happy.
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Supply and demand, I guess, the 7236 gaining more and more attention as 421As disappear, 5998s become ever rarer and more expensive, and amps like the Crack become more popular. Seeing 7226s selling for between $40 and $60 apiece recently really impressed me with how fast tube price acceleration can happen: I bought a beautiful PAIR of NOS 7236s just a year ago for about $30. Five years ago, I bought NOS 421As for about $85 apiece, NOS 5998s for $25. Makes me wonder what's going to happen when the 421A and 5998 supply is effectively exhausted. I don't see anyone ever producing modern versions. Well, maybe SOMEBODY, but they'll cost $500/pr. (The boxes, however, will be really nice. :D)
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... Makes me wonder what's going to happen when the 421A and 5998 supply is effectively exhausted....
The demand will die down when they become unavailable or too overpriced; then a few years later the hoarders who missed the bubble will let them go for cheap because nobody wants them anymore. Seen it before. At least with tulip bulbs, you can eat them!
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Paul,
I had no idea you were that old.
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Picked up a couple Valvo ECC 82's on the cheap.
Great sounding tubes.
Keeps getting harder to find a good deal on tubes.
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I have a couple Amperex and Philips that sound really nice. All from the Herleen plant. Lately Ive had a GE JG 5814 triple mica in there. I really like this tube as well. I have a few of them, black and grey plates. The GE in there now is actually a grey plate. I had a Sylvania 12BH7 in there for a long time. Like that tube very much as well. Done buying 12AU7 types I think (I hope). I dont have any that are especially rare, super expensive or incredibly hard to find. But Im very happy with several types that I have and Im probably covered for life where 12AU7's and equivalents are concerned. Not just for Crack but for everything I own that uses them.
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I have a couple Amperex and Philips that sound really nice. All from the Herleen plant. Lately Ive had a GE JG 5814 triple mica in there. I really like this tube as well. I have a few of them, black and grey plates. The GE in there now is actually a grey plate. I had a Sylvania 12BH7 in there for a long time. Like that tube very much as well. Done buying 12AU7 types I think (I hope). I dont have any that are especially rare, super expensive or incredibly hard to find. But Im very happy with several types that I have and Im probably covered for life where 12AU7's and equivalents are concerned. Not just for Crack but for everything I own that uses them.
I'm about the same way on 12AU7's.
Still looking for a Siemens Silver Plate ECC82 and a WE421a just to see how they sound.
I picked up the Valvo's off Ebay for 5 bucks each.
Just threw a low bid out there a won them.
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Yep, sometimes you get lucky on ebay. Used to happen often for me, now it's more rare. I have 2, pretty nice 6922's that I need to find mates for. A Valvo and an Amperex. I got them cheap on ebay a dozen years ago as singles with the intent of finding a mate for each at that time. Never did back then and last I checked, one of them was pretty pricey and I never came close to coming across a "steal" when I was actively looking. I may just sell them instead and get another pair or two of something else, probably some easier on the wallet Amperex. Im quite happy with BB's or Orange Globes in two CDP's and also Seduction. Couple more pairs should take care of me for the long haul. Those CDP's especially are easy on tubes and a good pair or two will probably outlast both players.
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I'd hang onto your nice 6922's for when you end up with an Eros.
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;D ... I probably wont end up with an Eros. Never say never, but Im happy with Seduction in this system and a Cornet in the other as far as phonos go. Lots of folks chase better in this "hobby". Ive had trouble curbing the audio obsession at times, like many of us, but Ive played very contently within the bang for buck category. What I really want/need is to get to some remodeling Ive been wanting to do so that I can add an existing amp and speakers to this system.
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Has anyone tried an philips/mullard/valvo/tele e80cc or tungsram e80cc with the 5998? i wanted to alter between these two tube types to tune the crack to sound tubey or into a detail monster in combination with the 5998. not going to bother with the 421a... just too hard to strike a good deal on them. currently using the 5998 with the rare 12bh7a blackplates foil dimpled d getter, gave up looking for that red top sylvania grey plate with red top as i could never seem to distinguish or identify one amongst the rest. i heard that the e80cc is a universally better option than the 12bh7, but i can't think of other than a more open sound and dynamic range, how one of the best sounding 12bh7a is lesser. guess i need to pick one up to find out.
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I have the Tungsram e80cc in now with a 5998. The e80cc does seem to be more detailed compaired to the Mullard 12au7 I normally use. The upper mid and high end are more forward than with the 12au7 and the low end is rolled off some. Good sounding combination just lacks a little in the low end. For acoustic guitar and strings works very well. I'm using HD 650's for cans.
The NOS Tungsram tube I have really needed a long burn in before it started sounding good.
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Ever try the E80cc with a 6AS7 (or 6080)? Just guessing that it might be a bit warmer or fuller sounding combination based on your description. Of course, you may not be looking for that. I dont have any E80CC's so Im just being curious here.
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I was precisely thinking of the Tungsram and 5998 combo to compensate for the 650's lesser treble and heavier bass. Although I'm thinking if I were to use the same setup for a pair of HD700s it may be too much treble or a detail monster combination
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im currently using a westinghouse 6080 and an unknown 12au7a, any recommendations for both that would fit well with my sound preference type
-potent deep low end, slightly warm
-forward mids
-largest sound staging possible
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im currently using a westinghouse 6080 and an unknown 12au7a, any recommendations for both that would fit well with my sound preference type
-potent deep low end, slightly warm
-forward mids
-largest sound staging possible
Potent low end ==> you can go for the 5998. the RCA 6AS7G are definitely more bassier but lacks the layering capabilities of the 5998. The stock 6080 you have is actually very good if you like punchy bass. It's often overlooked but if you did a comparison, you may find that straight bottle 6AS7 has punchier bass where 6AS7G types have more relaxed bass.
cleartop 12AU7 has good mid-topend if it isn't your stock tube already. I'm not much of a 12AU7 roller as i only have 12bh7 and e80cc tube types but you may want to try the e80cc as it is regarded as having much more air and larger sound than your average 12au7. i personally use a e80cc. however, 12bh7 and e80cc works best with speedball. If you're looking for good 12AU7s, the mullard cv4003 will give you very good warm bass. telefunken should be more linear and is more technically capable than most. someone maybe able to give you better insight of 12au7 tubes.
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Hi all, recently I modded Crack to take 6N30P-DR :) (I know maybe I shouldn't etc, but who cares). It was an eye opening experience for me. The amp transformed into something that I can't even compare with any other amps I have - the sound was divine. Every single note, every single breath was carried through so well. Just wanted to share. Maybe somebody will try it as well.
I also compared Little Dot MKII (with 6N30P-DR as well) and Crack. Crack completely destroyed the Little thing sound quality wise! There were not even in the same class. Way to go Bottlehead!!!
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The 6N30/6H30 is a sweet tube, what operating point did you use for it? 10mA/5v on the cathode?
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I tried to run it at different operating points (bias at 1.5, 2.5, 3.5 & different anode load resistors). At the end I settled on 12au7 mode - so no changes in schematic, just rewiring socket for 6DJ8 (I have a switch that allows to select between 6DJ8 and 12au7). the tube sounded practically the same at all voltages.
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What kind of plate voltage are you getting? Having that deviate too much will wreck the operating point of the 6080.
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So in 12au7 mode, plate voltage on 6080 is 180v
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No, the plate voltage of the 6080 will be reasonably consistent with driver tube changes, but the plate voltage of the driver tube and grid voltage of the 6080 will wander around.
For a hard core experimenter, the Crack could be modified with cap coupling to be more flexible towards driver tube swaps.
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Update 23/12/14: Fixed the the missing part of the post, most of these tubes have gone extinct by now so they're pretty much all rare :/ Updated prices for the Bendix 6080WB as it seems to be the only tube still available online. All the photos seems to be missing as well
The backstory:
We all know that the "best" 6080/6AS7 hands down are the Western Electric 421A and the GEC Curved Brown Base 6AS7G. These come up often on eBay, and bid prices often go for $120-$150 a NOS piece. However, there's always going to be one desperate nook that would drop their wallet to have it. Let's put this into perspective. The 421A NOS would fetch around $120+, $250 in factory box apiece. The GEC 6AS7G handily fetches $250 apiece as well. The next closest tube to these super tubes, the Tung Sol 5998, are reliably found for $75+ apiece, $110 if boxed. Personally, I would not pay more than $120 for a single tube, input or output. For me at least, it just doesn't make sense to run a tube that costs as much as the Crack itself. Tubes for sale on TaoBao will not be considered.
The aim of this guide is to narrow down the "best" affordable "premium" 6080/6AS7 tube type that isn't a 421A or A1834 which could reliably found for sale. Rare types will only be included as a reference. Any other tubes not listed here would not be considered as a "premium" tube. A few standard types have been included as a reference point.
The give you an idea of how each tube sounds, the Tung Sol 5998 will be used as a reference to demonstrate what the lesser tubes lack in sonic qualities. The stock generic 6080 that came with the kit will be used as reference to demonstrate what each "premium" tubes does better. "Generic 6080" refers to any other 6080 not listed here that are in the family of 6AS7/6AS7G/6AS7GA/6080/6080(WA/WB/WC)/5998A etc...
Disclaimer: Your experience and mileage with these tubes may vary. My Crack is modified which may affect the sound quality of each tube. (See Mods below)
THE LIST
I.a) GEC Curved Brown Base 6AS7G A1834 CV2523
I.b) Western Electric 421A
I.c) GEC Straight Brown Base 6AS7G A1834 CV2523
II.a.i) Tung Sol 5998
II.a.ii) Tung Sol 421A
II.a.iii) Cetron/Tung Sol 7236
II.b.i) Bendix 6080WB with slotted graphite cross columns
II.b.ii) Bendix 6080WB with solid graphite cross columns
II.b.iii) Bendix 6080WB with solid graphite columns
II.c) Bendix 6080WB
II.d) Mullard (Telefunken/Valvo/GEC) 6080WA CV2984
II.e) Sylvania 7236
III.a) Sylvania Gold Brand 6080
III.b) Tung Sol Chatham 6AS7G
III.c) RCA 6AS7G
III.d) Tung Sol 6080 or 6080WA
Tubes not included in this review:
6H13/ECC230 (Various labels: Philips/Amperex/Svetlana/Winged-C)
5998A
6AS7GA
Sylvania 6AS7G
Any other 6080WA/WB/WC variant not listed
Detailed review:
The ones underlined are tubes that I have or previously owned and are reviewed personally. Red indicates a reference quality tube and are one of the top tubes most sought after. Brown indicates a reference tube that do not cost big $$$ otherwise and are highly recommended. Green indicates a rare tube and are highly sought after. Now, I've sorted the tubes into 3 tiers. It's not that their sound falls into 3 tiers, but their prices conveniently falls into 3 separate tiers entirely. Prices are based on tubemaze and other reliable eBay sellers or reputable online sellers as well as any known local retail prices.
(NIB: "New-in-box" New old stock with original factory box. NOS: New old stock, with tested NOS values. Prices for used tubes will not be listed as they are all over the place)
Reference stock tube: Stock American 6080 Tube (Labelled GE)
Nothing too special about these. Good quantity of bass and wide soundstage. Does not excel in any particular quality, as such it lacks the detail and refinement of the premium tubes. It is actually a fairly neutral tube but as a result, doesn't do musicality and is lacking in analog warmth.
Tier I
I.a) $250 (NIB) / $150 (NOS) GEC Curved Brown Base 6AS7G A1834 CV2523 (Also labelled Osram/MWT/STC) [Bottom cup/pan/halo getter]:
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1050.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fs418%2FNubTAM94%2FVacuum%2520Tubes%2FGEC6AS7GCurvedBrownBaseA1834CV2523.jpg&hash=134a161dea093de9721ba377c44cc46c5b0086cf)
The "Super Tube", the "Holy Grail" of all 6AS7Gs. The GEC 6AS7G is very balanced in each aspect, good micro detailing and extremely analytical. The soundstage is very spacious, and has lots of air. Layering is very good and is probably the best of all British tubes. The differences between the curved and straight base are near indiscernible, so there's no need to extra big bucks for the curved brown base in particular.
Keywords: Detailed, musical, European sound,expensive
I.b) $250 (NIB) / $100-$180 (NOS) Western Electric 421A [Dual Bottom D/Halo Getters] (Labelled "5998/421A" in earlier 50's production):
THIS IS NOT A RELABELED 5998 (See construction features below).
(See Tung Sol 5998 below) Contrary to popular belief, the 421A is not just a cherry picked 5998 for matched sections evident from the different construction. The 421A is basically an uber 5998 with better dynamics, more air, transparency and soundstage imaging and presentation. Whether the refinements over the 5998 are worth the premium ($75 at average) are up to you.
Closely matched sections with much higher tolerances than that of the 5998 means that this tube is guaranteed to have balanced channel levels when running an OTL amp with a single power tube. However, do note that a very well matched 5998 is nearly identical in sound to the 421A.
The 5998 and 421A are distinct to any other tubes in the 6AS7 family but are not identical. These are the construction features specific to the 421A:
-Always have dual bottom halos or D getters with spiral wound "pigtails" filament wiring >>> 5998 have straight filament wiring and cleartop 5998s are very rare.
-Electrical data: The 421A has slightly higher gain than the 5998 from published electrical datasheets
>> Grey plates are NOT exclusive to the 421A. Photos of various 421A and 5998 manufactured within the same period are identically black or grey plates respectively
The tubes listed below are often mistaken to be a 421A:
-Sylvania, Chatham, Svetlana 6AS7G have dual bottom getters. They do not have domino plates and are not the 421A.
Keywords: Detailed, neutral, expensive
I.c) $200 (NIB) GEC Straight Brown Base 6AS7G A1834 CV2523 (Also labelled Osram/MWT/STC) [Bottom cup/pan/halo getter]:
Slightly inferior in sound to the curved brown base ever so slightly that they are near indiscernible but otherwise identical in sound.
Keywords: Detailed, musical, European sound,expensive
Tier II
II.a) The 5998 sound
The tubes listed below belong to the 5998 family of tubes. Do note that the 5998A is NOT the Tung Sol 5998 and does not have any sonic resemblance with the exception of the 7236. 5998s are ST shaped and were only produced by Tung Sol.
II.a.i) $110 (NIB) / $75 (NOS) Tung Sol 5998 (Chatham 2399/Tung Sol 6520/IBM 5998/Cetron 5998) [Single or Dual Top D Getter (50-60s') or Bottom D getter "cleartop" (50s') or Bottom and Top Getters (60-70s')]:
The "reference" tube for all 6AS7 tube types, this tube is very linear, detailed and has very good bass. If I were to say, along with the "super tubes" up there, the biggest difference with the bog standard 6AS7G tube types is that there is an entire layer/dimension of music added that is missing from the standard ones.
-The 5998/421A are easily distinguished from their dimpled "Domino" Plates.
-Some of the 6520's have the standard plates. The equivalent Tung Sol 6520 are built with the 5998 domino plates.
-Tung Sol also made 6AS7Gs with cleartops. Do not confuse this with the 5998 and check that it has the domino plates.
-The 5998A is NOT the 5998. The 5998A could be labelled as any other American manufacturer and do not have the domino plates. The 5998 was only made by Tung Sol[/size]
Keywords: Detailed, Neutral
II.a.ii) [RARE] $80 (NOS) Tung Sol 421A [Dual D getter]:
Basically it's a Tung Sol 5998 labelled "421A" and has the black 5998 plates. Do not have one myself but pretty sure it's either the same tube as the 5998 with different getters or a 5998 with 421A specifications without the WE 421A construction differences.
II.a.iii) [RARE] $75 (NOS) Cetron/Tung Sol 7236 [Dual Halo Getters]:
The 7236 is a computer rated 5998A but should sonically sound similar to the 5998. This specific 7236 has zirconium coated grey box plates. Similar to the 5998 sound abeit more linear, tighter bass and more dynamic. Basically a "faster and controlled" 5998 but at the expense that the bass doesn't go as deep. This tube is glorious listening to vocals and is probably the most controlled and "best" mid-centric tube of the 5998 pack.
Keywords: Detailed, Neutral, Linear, Fast, Punchy, Dynamic
II.b) The Bendix 6080WB Graphite Plates
Unlike all other 6AS7 tube types, these had solid graphite COLUMNS and not plates and are very heavy duty. They have ruggedized construction features such as extra supports and copper posts not found on other 6080 tubes. Regardless of branding, these were all manufactured by Bendix. These are a really good buy and an excellent alternative to the 5998. These tubes are sonically similar to the 5998 and are superior to with a noticeably airier sound without being prone to sibilance.
Keywords: Detailed, Neutral, Fast, Punchy, Dynamic, Wide
II.b.i) $100 (NOS) (Bendix/Tung Sol label) 6080WB with slotted graphite cross columns [Dual D/halo getters]:
Very live sounding, dynamic and surreal. Instrument separation is superior to the 5998. However, paired with the E80CC I find that it separated the instruments too much leading to loss of coherence. Upon extended listening, I realized that this was a result of the soundstage going deeper than before. The bass was tight and puinchy . If there is any easier way to describe this tube, this tube takes the linearity of the Tung Sol 7236 and adds deeper and stronger bass much more air. Sonically superior to the 5998.
II.b.ii) $100 (NOS) (Bendix/Tung Sol label) 6080WB with solid graphite cross columns [Dual D/halo getters]:
Should be similar to the slotted columns but I can't say unless I have one myself.
II.b.iii) $100 (NOS) (Bendix/Chatham label) / $100 (NOS) (Tung Sol label) Bendix 6080WB with solid graphite columns [Dual D/halo getters]:
Nearly identical in sound to the slot cross columns as I find it strangely, to be slightly inferior. I do not know if it's my ears or this particular tube that I have but it sounds like this version isn't as fuller bodied as its more expensive brother. This was compensated well with a more musical tube though, I had a rare RCA 12BH7A with foil D getter paired with it and it sounds fantastic at the expensive of some air and soundstage depth. Unlike the slot cross columns, I find the sound wasn't as full leading to a loss of coherence for orchestrals and string quartets due to excessive separation. If there was a better way to describe this effect, it is the lack of that concert hall "reverb". I would gladly stock up extras of these but unfortunately, this is not the perfect tube and would prefer the fuller bodied 5998 or the cross columns 6080WB more. Couldn't expect too much for nearly half the cost.
II.c) [RARE] $50 (NOS) Bendix (Raytheon) 6080WB [Dual Halo Getters]:
This is a strange tube, because tubemaze classifies this as a "5998" tube even though it is not related to the 5998 at all. It features the same ruggedized construction design of the graphite variant 6080WB but otherwise looks identical to any other 6080. Closer inspection also reveals that the plates have dimples. I doubt if it sounds similar to it's graphite brothers though.
Keywords: Someone review this tube for me if you have one
II.d) $60 (NIB) Mullard (Also labelled as Telefunken, Valvo and GEC) CV2984 6080WA [Dual Halo Getters]:
Marketed as having the same sound as the GEC A1834/CV2523. For a fraction of the cost, this tube has 80% of the bigger brother's sonic qualities. Mainly the same sound but less micro detail and not as analytical and weaker instrumental separation. Do not be fooled, there is an eBay seller selling these for well over $250 a pair. They are not worth that much.
Keywords: Musical, European sound
II.e) [RARE] $50 (NOS) Sylvania (CEI) 7236 [Dual Halo Getters]:
Appears to be indifferent to the standard 6AS7. I believe this is the "7236" people are talking about that does not sound any different to the standard ones. It may be a relabelled Sylvania Gold Brand 6080 (See below). There are also some Sylvania metal base versions with a single halo getter, however that is rarely seen.
Keywords: No sound impressions available
Tier III
III.a) [RARE] $- (NIB) /$- (NOS) Sylvania Gold Brand 6080 [Dual Halo Getters]:
"Unlike other 6080 tubes that have very tight sound, this is more relaxed. Compared to other tubes in 6as7 family, this is the most liquid tube." - Nikolay Sokratov.
This tube does not deviate too much from the standard 6080, but has the liquid smoothness and musicality typical to any Sylvania manufactured tube. Does not have the detail of any of the exotic 6AS7 tubes but definitely excels in musicality. I would very much prefer this over the RCA 6AS7G as it does not have that thick bass but unfortunately these are very hard to get your hands on for a good price. Currently sells for $80 (NIB) for a single tube from an Italian seller on eBay which is IMO a complete ripoff. Shouldn't be paying for more than $20 apiece. Occasionally comes up as used tubes but still rare. I got lucky and scored a bunch of untested but NIB NOS by chance from eBay. You really shouldn't be paying more than $20 for these since they are quite literally just cherry picked standard 6080 tubes but they are rarer than the WE421A and TS5998 as of now.
This is perhaps the best poorman's 6080, yet these are one of the few tubes I'd stick to listening along with the TS5998. Do note that unlike the other Sylvania 6AS7GAs, these are actually labelled "Gold Brand 6080"
Keywords: Musical, fun, punchy, warm, fast
III.b) $30-40 (NOS) Tung Sol Chatham 6AS7G [Dual Top/Bottom D getter](Black Plates):
Compared to the Tung Sol 5998, the bass is not as thick and lacks the soundstage and air. Unlike the 5998 which is more linear, the Tung Sol 6AS7G is brighter sounding leading to a clearer and more focused sound in the higher frequencies. Not as warm sounding as the 5998 but is very sweet sounding with female vocals.
Keywords: Clear, mid-ccentric
III.c) $20-40 (NIB) /$10 (NOS) RCA (and Various labels) 6AS7G [Top or Bottom D/Halo getter](Black Plates):
The bog standard 6AS7G. Very musical, has that signature RCA house sound that's warm and thick on the sounding bass. This is a very balanced combination with the cleartop RCA 12AU7A due to the early treble rolloff. However, as it is the "bog standard" tube, it doesn't stand up against anything more expensive and is missing the layer of sound and detail of the 5998. Tried pairing it with the Tungsram E80CC. Didn't help much though. Avoid using the grey plates version. The RCA 6AS7G is already as cheap as you could get.
Disclaimer: Many claim that this tube is noisy. My particular tube was dead quiet. Your experience may vary.
Keywords: Warm, slow, boomy, veiled
III.d) [RARE] $20 (NOS) Tung Sol 6080 or 6080WA (Westinghouse labeled):
In comparison to any other generic 6080 tube, the Tung Sol 6080 delivers far better bass punch and is thunderous when needed. Although it isn't much different to the generic 6080, somehow the Tung Sols just have "soul" and delivers musicality not present in the generic bunch.
This was once the stock kit tube. Reason why I listed it as "rare" is because you honestly can't buy it anywhere. If there's a tube out there for equal or less the same price as the standard straight bottle 6080's that's better, it's definitely the Tung Sol tubes. That is why these had disappeared as well.
Keywords: Musical, punchy
Hope this helps.
Test Setup:
Bottlehead Crack
Speedball Upgrade
-Mundorf TubeCap 100uF output caps w/Mundorf SGO 1uF coupling
-Mundorf TubeCap 220uF power cap w/Mundorf SUP8 2.2uF coupling
-Goldpoint 100K Mini-V Stepped Attenuator
-Mundorf SilverGold/DHC Nucleotide wires for signal paths
-Kimber TCSS for non signal paths
-Teflon Tube Sockets
-Vampire RCA Sockets
Input tubes used:
-Tungsram Steel pins E80CC: This is by far the most linear input tube abeit its bass rolloff. This increases the perceptibility of the bass characteristics of the output tube. This is my reference input tube for more objective listening.
-Russian 6N8S/6H8C Black Plates: One of my more affordable premium 6SN7, as I do not want to pull out my roundplates 6SN7 or hole plates 6N8S/1578 for the purposes of this review. Neutral sounding similar to that of the Tungsram Steel pins E80CC this is my more recent reference tubes as it offers slightly "more" and is less prone to that bass rolloff the E80CC exhibits.
-Sylvania VT-231: A good affordable 6SN7 being in the middle ground but comparatively musical sounding. Offers decent technicalities but notwithstanding compared to the roundplates 6SN7
Source:
HRT MusicStreamerII+
Headphones:
Sennheiser HD650 with J.A. Harmonic Quadraweave OCC Copper cabling
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Nick,
Well written and informational. I don't have a Crack but I will expect that those who do have one will really appreciate all the time you have put into this.
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I have an Amperex 6AS7G. It looks very similar in construction to a 421A. You ever seen or heard one of these tubes?
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Amperex 6AS7G is unfortunately a Russian rebrand.
The 421A is distinct to any other tubes in the 6AS7 family.
421A had spiral wound "pigtails" filament wiring and matte light grey (50's) or black (60's) dimpled "Domino" Plates, dual bottom halo/d getters
Here are photos of the 421A with halos, domino plates and a d getters variant.
Last photo is a picture of the 421A and 5998.
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I have 3 5998's, two variations. One is a grey plate, dual bottom D getter. The other two are black plates, dual top D getter. Sonically, they are the same. I had another variation with both top and bottom getters that was noisy. I have remained skeptical about any signifigant differences (sonic) between the 421A and the 5998 because of several reasons related mostly to internet "research". But, I fully admit to never owning a 421A so I could very well be wrong. But your photo of the Tungsol labeled 421A doesnt tend to change my thinking. The biggest "issue" that I have is that Ive seen several of both the 5998 and 421A tubes with different internal contruction from one another, respectively. The 5998's that I have/had that are different internally all sound essentially the same so it leaves me plenty skeptical enough to not have any desire to spend the money on a 421A. Again though, I could be wrong and will probably never know for sure unless a 421A basically dropped in my lap.
Very nice post BTW.
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I admit even I don't have the 421A and I'm tired of trying to get my hands on one. The web consensus is that the 421A=5998 based on construction photos but people that claim this never really owned one so it's mostly a baseless assumption. But if people that have the 421A say so that there is a difference that is huge, then it probably explains the crazy dropping of wallets. Otherwise it just doesn't justify to pay big bucks for a step up from the 5998.
The 5998 has in fact, 4 variations including the Tung Sol 421A. Single top getter, dual top, dual bottom and top and bottom getters. The 421A however, always have dual bottom getters.
The "black" and "grey" plates however is very subjective, but I think I could firmly say that the 421A is easily distinguishable with it's matte grey plates whereas the 5998's plates give off a slight sheen. The early 5998 seems to have dark grey "black" plates whereas the later ones had a glossy black to it. I'm just skeptical if a well balanced 5998 sounds essentially the same as the 421A. EDIT: CONFIRMED THAT BOTH the 421A AND 5998 HAVE BLACK AND GREY PLATES
I've got a NOS 5998 for $60 off ebay some time ago and one new in factory box from local retails for $110. Does it sound different? Probably. Strangely I prefer the NOS one more and felt "burn in" in the sense that it sounds musical. On the other hand, the NIB one didn't sound as musical and sounded as if it had a deeper soundstage. I don't know if there really was a difference but I'm sure that both tubes were balanced. Subjective opinions anyways but I've stuck to the one I picked off ebay until now.
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I have 3 5998's, two variations. One is a grey plate, dual bottom D getter. The other two are black plates, dual top D getter.
It appears that I was wrong about the plates: WE 421A had grey plates in the 50's and black plates in the 60's onwards. In other words, the 421A and 5998 are otherwise identical in plate construction as the 5998 was indifferent in the given production periods. See photo
Although we could now be sure that the Tung Sol 421A is otherwise just a rebranded 5998 with 421A specifications.
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...
Although we could now be sure that the Tung Sol 421A is otherwise just a rebranded 5998.
Just noting here that "re-branding" might involve testing and selection as well - balanced sections,, tighter specs, lower noise, for instance. Or on the other hand, rejects from a quality-tested batch can show up under a different brand. The tube business has its dark side!
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I agree with you Nick, without owning a 421A it's impossible to be certian if there is any signifigant sonic difference from the 5998. Thats why all I can say is that I remain skeptical. But I really appreciate you posting that Tungsol labeled 421A. That kinda adds fuel to my own fire ;D I wish that top and bottom getter variation I had was a good tube. I'd like to have 3 variations of them just to have them, even though I couldnt hear any real differences.
I have mentioned previously, what Paul has stated. That maybe the WE 421A is a selected 5998 with some internal contruction differences. Well, atleast for some of them, the Tungsol labeled 421A murkys the waters some more. But the bottom O getters are the most obvious from your pictures and others I have seen. Still, that doesnt necessarily make them signifigantly different, sonically. I never really chased a WE, when I have seen them for sale it has been at too steep a price for me and it's likely to remain that way. I know most of the folks who have one proclaim the WE is better but of course human nature has to be accounted for so I still remain skeptical. But fact still remains that without one myself I will never know for sure.
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I know most of the folks who have one proclaim the WE is better but of course human nature has to be accounted for so I still remain skeptical. But fact still remains that without one myself I will never know for sure.
Someone in the 421A camp bust this myth? I'm not willing to sponsor for the usage of your precious 421A and 5998 tube though!!!
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I bet a lot of people are kicking themselves for literally just throwing away their tubes now that there is a market where people will pay tons of money for such things.
I don't think anyone would do that... a little research on eBay is all you need to do if your dead tube is worth someone else' fortune. I was hunting for rare 421As and A1834s and the prices would always break the $150 barrier regardless... so I turned to hunting for rare 6SN7s for the input side instead. Turns out that, the average price of the "rare" 6SN7s like the Sylvania 6SN7W and British 6SN7s bunch aren't much better...
Well, I would throw out the stock 6AS7 anyways, unless it was the Tung Sol Westinghouse one.
Ultimately, we all have to draw a line for the $$$ barrier for the lone 6080/12AU7 combination we're using in the Crack though
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Would the SYLVANIA JHS 5814WA black plate tube work with the crack? I have found a pair of these for sale and I heard a lot of good things about them.
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Yes, the 5814 is a direct sub. Go for it, no problems at all.
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Also will the 6AS7GA work with the crack? On the list I only see 6AS7G.
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Also will the 6AS7GA work with the crack? On the list I only see 6AS7G.
The only difference between the two is the shape of the glass, so yes.
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At the moment, I am running;
Amperex 6085-PQ and Chatham/Tung-Sol 5998.
Also in my arsenal of tubes to roll are the following;
Input;
EH 12AU7
Sylvania 12AU7
RCA 12AU7A Cleartop
Raytheon 12AU7 Long Blackplate
Mullard 12AU7
RCA 12BH7 Blackplate
Sylvania 12BH7 Curved Plate
Output;
RCA 6080
Mullard 6080
Cetron 7236
GE 6AS7G
Regards,
Dave
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Is there a need to increase the heater voltage on my Crack if I change from a 12AU7 to a E80CC ?
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ualcap,
They are not interchangeable equivalents. See this thread:
http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,1027.0.html
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Not sure about that. There is another thread here that says they are OK to use. Based on that, I bought one, and it is what I currently use. No problems at all. Gain is higher, though.
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Will they plug in and work? Yes. Is the circuit optimized for them? It certainly was not in mind when designed since the designer chose the 12AU7. So perhaps the tube could work even better than it does.
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Fair enough. ;) :P
Here is the thread I was referring to: http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,3501.0.html (http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,3501.0.html)
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Higher current draw but the total draw is still within the limits of the CT3 transformer. I'm currently using a 6SN7 and had no problems previously with the 12BH7 and E80CC (with speedball). I'm not an expert on the specifics of the circuit design of the Crack but I have done alot of research on the datasheets and the Bottlehead forums regarding the use of the 12BH7/E80CC/6SN7. The extra current draw is within the design limits on the transformer but whether the stock Crack would yield optimal results with the non 12AU7 family of tubes is something else that I could not confirm.
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FWIW, I have a Speedball installed...
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Newbie Question:
Just got the 5998's today..Using the crack with speedball.
I;m using a pair of HD800's,& I prefer classical,light jazz,acoustic guitar,80's rock
Can anyone give me a few suggestions for a good match withe the 5998
I do have an old Mullard coming in:
Mullard 12AU7-Ecc82,Blackburn,1958--thought this might add some warmth to the 5998??
Any suggestions will be appreciated.
Tnx
Mike
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Has anyone tried the Tung-Sol Re-Issue 12AU7?
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Tung-Sol 12AU7/6189 is discussed in this thread ... http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,3946.0.html
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Thank you Laudanum.
I'm a new Crack owner and new to tubes and just looking for some cheap but good ones to try out.
Could someone recommend me a cheap alternative to the stock output tube of the Crack?
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RCA 6AS7G ... should be inexpensive ($10 give or take a few), they are still plentiful. But, some sellers do try and get too much money for them.
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Hello, all. Seems like there's a definite preference on this forum for the sound of 6AS7G tubes over the less glamorous looking 6080 tubes. Granted, I only have an RCA 6AS7G and an Amperex (made by RCA). Both of those tubes sound very loose on the bottom end and both have a very faint high pitched ringing in the right channel. Most 6080's I've tried, on the other hand, have much tighter, controlled bass and are dead silent--not a hint of microphonics with most--especially military JAN versions. I'm listening to the line output of my iPod Classic. The best combo I've found so far, by a wide margin, is an RCA JAN CRC 6080WA paired with an RCA 5963. Everything opens up with this combo. Tight, controlled bass; very present and detailed midrange; a nice airy spaciousness to the treble. I also have a Sylvania Gold Brand 6080, which is nearly as good but not quite; and a Sylvania JAN 6080WB which sounds slightly lifeless compared to the other two 6080's.
I don't have a 5998 and I know this tube is universally praised. I'm just curious as to why most people seem to prefer the ST shaped tubes to the good ol' straight 6080? To my ears, they don't sound better. Anyone else?
Other 12AU7 tubes I've tried in my rig:
unknown brand 6189
Conn 12AU7A
RCA Cleartop 12AU7A
RCA Command 5814A
GE 5-Star 5814A
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I think we need to be careful when making judgments about a certain production of a tube based upon one sample. One sample might be microphonic, another might be not, and that could mean that if you heard a microphonic one you haven't heard the best example of that particular tube. Beyond that there is of course that fact that we use different headphones with different characteristics and we all put a little bit different emphasis on various aspects of the sound. So any thread about tube rolling is just a starting point.
We have been tryng different tubes in a new circuit we are working up (not a headphone amp). Based upon a lot of things I read I took a slight turn and we tried a slightly different tube that was reputed in quite a few forums to sound better that what we had started with. I didn't think that the sample we got sounded better, I thought it was worse. So we are getting some other samples of that tube to try as well. And if and when the kit comes out we will probably offer instructions for converting the circuit so one can make the comparison on their own.
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FWIW, my two favorite tubes so far are a Bendix 6080 with graphite plates and a GEC 6AS7G. I don't prefer either one because of their sound, but rather because they are very quiet. Other tubes may also be quiet, but of the many tubes I've tried, these are the best.
Adam
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I didn't mean to disparage any tubes in particular. I'm only saying that I think I'm tending to favor 6080's over 6AS7G's and wonder if anyone else is too?
I guess I should have included a better description of my setup:
Stock Bottlehead Crack
Sennheiser HD600 headphones
Sendstation line-out dock
iPod Classic 120GB
I'm sure my preferences will change if and when I add a stand-alone DAC to the equation. I'm thinking of trying the Pure I-20 iPod dock with built-in DAC. Seems like good bang for buck, and that's what I'm all about.
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It's pretty tough to tell on the 6AS7 vs. 6080 debate, as nearly all of the varieties of internal construction of one type can be found in the other (excluding the 5998, and some of the newer Soviet equivalents).
(I spend my money on AU7's.)
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I consider the Pure i-20 (like the Crack) to be one of the best buys in audio. I own three of them. The built-in DAC is quite good, and you can always use it later to feed a stand-alone DAC through the optical or coaxial outputs. The only thing to beware of is that it isn't suitable for watching movies on an iPad, since the iPad assumes you are using the video out on the Pure and cuts the display on the iPad itself. But for listening to music, it is outstanding.
Best,
Adam
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Hello, all. Seems like there's a definite preference on this forum for the sound of 6AS7G tubes over the less glamorous looking 6080 tubes. Granted, I only have an RCA 6AS7G and an Amperex (made by RCA). Both of those tubes sound very loose on the bottom end and both have a very faint high pitched ringing in the right channel. Most 6080's I've tried, on the other hand, have much tighter, controlled bass and are dead silent--not a hint of microphonics with most--especially military JAN versions. I'm listening to the line output of my iPod Classic. The best combo I've found so far, by a wide margin, is an RCA JAN CRC 6080WA paired with an RCA 5963. Everything opens up with this combo. Tight, controlled bass; very present and detailed midrange; a nice airy spaciousness to the treble. I also have a Sylvania Gold Brand 6080, which is nearly as good but not quite; and a Sylvania JAN 6080WB which sounds slightly lifeless compared to the other two 6080's.
I don't have a 5998 and I know this tube is universally praised. I'm just curious as to why most people seem to prefer the ST shaped tubes to the good ol' straight 6080? To my ears, they don't sound better. Anyone else?
Other 12AU7 tubes I've tried in my rig:
unknown brand 6189
Conn 12AU7A
RCA Cleartop 12AU7A
RCA Command 5814A
GE 5-Star 5814A
Rather than why people "prefer" the ST shaped 6AS7G over the 6AS7 is simply because of variety and the more definite change in sonic characteristics to the Crack and most probably, looks. The mass produced straight bottle 6AS7 from different brands are mostly sonically identical, with some claims that the Sylvania dual halo getters, sylvania 6080 gold brand, sylvania/cei 7236 and the Mullard/GEC/Valvo 6080 to be sonically superior or to some degree, "better". For one, the Sylvania 6080GB is one of the few straight bottle 6AS7 tubes that takes musicality of the Crack sound a notch further having owning one of these but is quite a rare find as of now. The premium Graphite series Bendix/Tung Sol 6080WB and the Cetron/Tung Sol 7236 come up more often on ebay than the low-end premiums but at a much higher cost, and are often compared and considered to be equally as good or even better than the 5998.
The RCA 6AS7G on the other hand is more "popular" due to being dirt cheap and easy to get your hands on, and makes a very obvious change to the Crack sound. It slows down the pace of the Crack and has good musicality and looser bass, giving the Crack a more vintage tube-ish sound. On the other hand, the premium 6AS7G types, the 5998/421a and GEC brown base are known to yield improvements and are relatively common on ebay despite their soaring prices.
I have done an extensive report on the 6AS7 tubes in case you have missed it: http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,3453.html
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The ST shaped tubes obviously look "cooler" but it has nothing to do with my preference. The RCA and some of the other inexpensive 6AS7G's just plain sound better to my ears than any of the 6080's that I happen to have. Im not spending money on the high dollar 6080's, my biggest tube expenditure when to a 5998 and a couple spares. That's what I normally run in crack and Im extremely pleased with the sound but the RCA gets rolled in too. The RCA 6AS7 does have a bigger bottom but with Speedball and Film output caps I dont find it bloated or flabby except with one set of my cans and only then with limited source material. In fact, I find that tube fun on a good deal of material. I agree with Nick, it tends to sound more vintage tubey. Our tastes all differ. Mine isnt generally looking for that "proper" or dead accurate sound. And again, I sure dont priortize with tube shape being at the top of the list.
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Appreciate all your responses. I'm really enjoying my crack. Enjoyed building it too. Think I might build another.
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Back in 2010 Dr Toobz commented on the Russian 6H13C tube. "sounds a little sweeter and more "tubey" than the 6080 in there before". I've rolled several different combinations of input tubes with this particular tube. I thank a great combo that gives you that sweet "tubey" sound is a RCA 12AU7A clear top/ 6H13C . This is an inexpensive way for new tube rollers to get that classic tube sound from your crack. Plus it has that ST shape so can go for the cool factor as well. Remember to give it some burn-in time.
Try them you may lke them.
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ualcap; how are the microphonics on the 6H13C? Is it quiet?
In my local store they have two ECC82 tubes available. Does anyone have experience with these and how do they compare with the stock driver tubes?
ECC82 /12AU7WA RTC FRANCE- VALVE= 12AU7 (29$)
ECC82-JJ JJ TWIN TRIOCE ECC82/12AU7 (33$)
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I tested a new JJ ECC82 and did not hear any real difference with the stock NOS 12au7a (RCA ?) shipped with my Crack.
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Orri ... the JJ ECC82 is kind of unique for the type, the plates are like the 6DJ8's. But they shouldnt cost more than about $10 or $11 dollars. JJ also has an ECC802 with has more of the standard, long flat plates like most 12AU7's. These are more expensive, around $20. I think they are marketed as a premium tube and have gold pins. Premium being a relative term. Anyway, point is that the JJ tube shouldnt cost anywhere near $33. I have a couple of the JJ ECC82's. I like them but with a good supply of NOS 12AU7's in my stash, there are others I prefer.
ffivaz ... I had an new production EH shipped with Crack, so you are lucky to get the NOS tube with the kit (depending on how one feels about the EH I guess). You are also lucky in a way if you cannot hear any difference between 12AU7's. New production tubes are easy to find and inexpensive ;)
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Laudanum...I live in Iceland where we have only one tube dealer (you can laugh now). So that, along with high custom and shipping fees explains the price. The dealer also has the ECC802-JJ JJ/ECC802/ A12AU7 GOLD PIN you mentioned at 41$.
How would you compare the sound of these tubes I mentioned compared to the stock ones? I'm curious since installing the speedball I find the Crack a bit too bright and I'm looking for a tube that could reduce the brightness a bit...
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Laudanum, I said NOS, but it was maybe used :)
Orri, I read somewhere (can't remember) that the JJ was a quite bright sounding tube. But I may be mistaken.
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The RTC is probably worth a shot, I wouldn't pay $5 for the JJ (unless it's more than 5 years old).
-PB
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Orri ... I agree with Paul, for that type money I'd rather take a chance on the RTC but I dont have any to give you feedback on. The JJ's I own are all from atleast 10 years ago. I have heard of problems with the newer production JJ's.
I may have missed it but I dont know what stock 12AU7 tube was included with your Crack kit. If I were looking for a warmer sound and tube options were limited I may be inclined to focus on the output tube. The RCA 6AS7 tends to have a bigger bottom and isnt what I would consider bright up top (or overly detailed either for that matter). I always seem to be mentioning these tubes and I know some members complain of the bass being too fat or loose. But it may warm things up and balance out the sound to better suit your tastes. I'm not really biased in terms of this tube, I actually dont run it normally. I normally am listening to a 5998. Personally, Im not all that enthralled by the Russian 6H13C's. I find the treble a bit brittle/harsh/hard. But systems, headphones and ears all make a world of difference so YMMV. There are some 12AU7's and subsititutes that I find a bit less bright. Some of the RCA's (NOT the clear tops). I have a couple nice sounding GE 6189's and also some of the Holland made Amperex tubes. I got good deals on all of these, great deals on the Amperex (and some Philips and rebrands). All bought on ebay which may be your best option based on your geography. I have a bunch of 12AU7's and variants but I dont have any uber expensive tubes so those I mention are based only on the tubes that I have and on my mortal ears and my limited audio vocabulary.
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I have a question. I'm currently running a 12BH7 and a 6AS7 tube setup in my Crack. Even though the Speedball will allow the 12BH7 without mods, will the 12BH7 have any adverse effects on the 6AS7, such as tube life?
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So far I've run;
6080-Mullard and RCA
5998-Tung-Sol
7236-Cetron
6AS7G-GE, Raytheon, RCA
12AU7-Mullard, Telefunken ribbed plate, Raytheon black plate, RCA Cleartop
12BH7-RCA black plate, Sylvania Grey Plate, Sylvania Curved Black Plate
6085 (ECC80) -Amperex "PQ"
Input tubes;
1) 12BH7 Sylvania Curved black plate-Amazing tube!
2) 12BH7 RCA black plate-Also a great tube, just a little on the dark side.
3) The Amperex was extremely nice, very sharp imagery, yet smooth highs. Unfortunately, it died on me. Became very microphonic then lost a channel. Until then, it was vying for the top of the list. Oh, well.
Of the AU types the Telefunken is best, IMO. Little shy in the bass, but a great sounding tube. I also like the sound of the Mullard which is more full on the bottom but not quite as detailed.
But, I think I'm sticking with the taller BH type tubes. It's a more dynamic sound.
Power tubes;
1) Hands down the big RCA with the black plates. I like the 6AS7G tubes over the others else overall, it's just a great sounding design.
2) The Raytheon is also black plate and the sound is very close to the RCA.
3) Following at a close third is the TS 5998. Very nice, smooth tube, especially with Classical and Jazz.
4) The 6080s were alright, with the Mullard having a darker but more full bodied sound than the RCA.
5) The 7236 I don't care for at all. Sharp imagery, very quiet backround, but way too bright for my ears. Almost as fatiguing as solid state.
So, far the best combination is the RCA 6AS7G Black Plate driven by the Sylvania 12BH7 Curved Black Plate. Deep, tight, powerful bass and amazing imagery. Like having the band in your head. Cymbals just totally shimmer.
Dave
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I have a question. I'm currently running a 12BH7 and a 6AS7 tube setup in my Crack. Even though the Speedball will allow the 12BH7 without mods, will the 12BH7 have any adverse effects on the 6AS7, such as tube life?
The BH7 bumps the plate voltage of the driver stage down a little bit, which in turn also bumps the cathode voltage of the 6080 down a tad too.
The 6080 is run fairly lightly, so having more plate to cathode voltage with the same current will mean more dissipation, but still way below the threshold of doing any harm.
I would mention, however, that there will be a decrease in heat generated by the TIP50C, and this may not be such a bad thing (though the heat through the MJE350's will go up a hair at the same time).
-PB
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Dave
I'm running the same setup except I'm using the RCA 6AS7G with an RCA 12BH7. Not a lot of time logged in yet, but I find this combination helps with the slight fogginess I get with the 6AS7G and really tightens things up without loosing that toobey goodness.
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I have one of those with black plates layin' around here somewhere. Have to give it a try. I know it was very good with the 5998 and the GE 6AS7. The RCA has much longer plates, IIRC.
Dave
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So far I've run;
6080-Mullard and RCA
5998-Tung-Sol
7236-Cetron
6AS7G-GE, Raytheon, RCA
12AU7-Mullard, Telefunken ribbed plate, Raytheon black plate, RCA Cleartop
12BH7-RCA black plate, Sylvania Grey Plate, Sylvania Curved Black Plate
6085 (ECC80) -Amperex "PQ"
Input tubes;
1) 12BH7 Sylvania Curved black plate-Amazing tube!
2) 12BH7 RCA black plate-Also a great tube, just a little on the dark side.
3) The Amperex was extremely nice, very sharp imagery, yet smooth highs. Unfortunately, it died on me. Became very microphonic then lost a channel. Until then, it was vying for the top of the list. Oh, well.
Of the AU types the Telefunken is best, IMO. Little shy in the bass, but a great sounding tube. I also like the sound of the Mullard which is more full on the bottom but not quite as detailed.
But, I think I'm sticking with the taller BH type tubes. It's a more dynamic sound.
Power tubes;
1) Hands down the big RCA with the black plates. I like the 6AS7G tubes over the others else overall, it's just a great sounding design.
2) The Raytheon is also black plate and the sound is very close to the RCA.
3) Following at a close third is the TS 5998. Very nice, smooth tube, especially with Classical and Jazz.
4) The 6080s were alright, with the Mullard having a darker but more full bodied sound than the RCA.
5) The 7236 I don't care for at all. Sharp imagery, very quiet backround, but way too bright for my ears. Almost as fatiguing as solid state.
So, far the best combination is the RCA 6AS7G Black Plate driven by the Sylvania 12BH7 Curved Black Plate. Deep, tight, powerful bass and amazing imagery. Like having the band in your head. Cymbals just totally shimmer.
Dave
I've pretty much got the same 12BH7 and E80CC 6085 tubes you have there. been there, tried it, liked it, but then i discovered the 6SN7 lol
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So far I've run;
6080-Mullard and RCA
5998-Tung-Sol
7236-Cetron
6AS7G-GE, Raytheon, RCA
12AU7-Mullard, Telefunken ribbed plate, Raytheon black plate, RCA Cleartop
12BH7-RCA black plate, Sylvania Grey Plate, Sylvania Curved Black Plate
6085 (ECC80) -Amperex "PQ"
Input tubes;
1) 12BH7 Sylvania Curved black plate-Amazing tube!
2) 12BH7 RCA black plate-Also a great tube, just a little on the dark side.
3) The Amperex was extremely nice, very sharp imagery, yet smooth highs. Unfortunately, it died on me. Became very microphonic then lost a channel. Until then, it was vying for the top of the list. Oh, well.
Of the AU types the Telefunken is best, IMO. Little shy in the bass, but a great sounding tube. I also like the sound of the Mullard which is more full on the bottom but not quite as detailed.
But, I think I'm sticking with the taller BH type tubes. It's a more dynamic sound.
Power tubes;
1) Hands down the big RCA with the black plates. I like the 6AS7G tubes over the others else overall, it's just a great sounding design.
2) The Raytheon is also black plate and the sound is very close to the RCA.
3) Following at a close third is the TS 5998. Very nice, smooth tube, especially with Classical and Jazz.
4) The 6080s were alright, with the Mullard having a darker but more full bodied sound than the RCA.
5) The 7236 I don't care for at all. Sharp imagery, very quiet backround, but way too bright for my ears. Almost as fatiguing as solid state.
So, far the best combination is the RCA 6AS7G Black Plate driven by the Sylvania 12BH7 Curved Black Plate. Deep, tight, powerful bass and amazing imagery. Like having the band in your head. Cymbals just totally shimmer.
Dave
When you are speaking about these tubes "RCA 6AS7G Black Plate driven by the Sylvania 12BH7 Curved Black Plate" are these compatible with the Crack without the speedball? I just completed the kit and while it sounds great I've been trying to get up to speed on all the tube rolling. Thanks for any info.
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So far I've run;
6080-Mullard and RCA
5998-Tung-Sol
7236-Cetron
6AS7G-GE, Raytheon, RCA
12AU7-Mullard, Telefunken ribbed plate, Raytheon black plate, RCA Cleartop
12BH7-RCA black plate, Sylvania Grey Plate, Sylvania Curved Black Plate
6085 (ECC80) -Amperex "PQ"
Input tubes;
1) 12BH7 Sylvania Curved black plate-Amazing tube!
2) 12BH7 RCA black plate-Also a great tube, just a little on the dark side.
3) The Amperex was extremely nice, very sharp imagery, yet smooth highs. Unfortunately, it died on me. Became very microphonic then lost a channel. Until then, it was vying for the top of the list. Oh, well.
Of the AU types the Telefunken is best, IMO. Little shy in the bass, but a great sounding tube. I also like the sound of the Mullard which is more full on the bottom but not quite as detailed.
But, I think I'm sticking with the taller BH type tubes. It's a more dynamic sound.
Power tubes;
1) Hands down the big RCA with the black plates. I like the 6AS7G tubes over the others else overall, it's just a great sounding design.
2) The Raytheon is also black plate and the sound is very close to the RCA.
3) Following at a close third is the TS 5998. Very nice, smooth tube, especially with Classical and Jazz.
4) The 6080s were alright, with the Mullard having a darker but more full bodied sound than the RCA.
5) The 7236 I don't care for at all. Sharp imagery, very quiet backround, but way too bright for my ears. Almost as fatiguing as solid state.
So, far the best combination is the RCA 6AS7G Black Plate driven by the Sylvania 12BH7 Curved Black Plate. Deep, tight, powerful bass and amazing imagery. Like having the band in your head. Cymbals just totally shimmer.
Dave
When you are speaking about these tubes "RCA 6AS7G Black Plate driven by the Sylvania 12BH7 Curved Black Plate" are these compatible with the Crack without the speedball? I just completed the kit and while it sounds great I've been trying to get up to speed on all the tube rolling. Thanks for any info.
Yes but the results may or may not be optimal. but this has been discussed many times. The 12BH7 draws more current but is within the design limits of the PT-3 transformer, Doc mentioned that it is fine, perhaps you should dig through the Crack forum, because the 12BH7 has been brought up quite alot
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Thanks for the help Nick. I ordered a Mullard CV4003 from upscale audio. Ill start there, looking around for a Mullard 6080 to try as well. Ill get to the Speedball upgrade after I have some time messing around with the basic configuration. This is the first time I have listened to a tube amp, it sounds awesome, just fun to play around with different sounds now.
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The 12BH7 will function in the Crack circuit, though at a lower plate voltage than originally targeted. This will lead to lower cathode voltages and a slightly different operating point on the 6080, but nothing that will lead to the destruction of the amplifier. (It may actually run cooler with with 12BH7)
-PB
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Good info, thanks for that. I went with Mullard CV4003 and Rca 6as7g 1951, just messing around for now. I think Ill probably grab the speedball here pretty soon and try out some other combos, gets addicting messing around with this amp :)
-r
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I've pretty much got the same 12BH7 and E80CC 6085 tubes you have there. been there, tried it, liked it, but then i discovered the 6SN7 lol
[/quote]
I have a pile of 6SN7s and an adapter on the way.
Dave
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When you are speaking about these tubes "RCA 6AS7G Black Plate driven by the Sylvania 12BH7 Curved Black Plate" are these compatible with the Crack without the speedball? I just completed the kit and while it sounds great I've been trying to get up to speed on all the tube rolling. Thanks for any info.
[/quote]
The 6AS7G is compatible with non-Speedball Crack. The 12BH you should run with Speedball, IMO.
Dave
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would a 6sn7 tube work in place of the 12au7 with an adapter? ive been reading they sound better than 12au7. i don't see why it wouldn't work but I haven't seen anyone do it with crack yet. is there a reason for that? I really want to try a tung sol 6sn7gtb.
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would a 6sn7 tube work in place of the 12au7 with an adapter? ive been reading they sound better than 12au7. i don't see why it wouldn't work but I haven't seen anyone do it with crack yet. is there a reason for that? I really want to try a tung sol 6sn7gtb.
Yes, there is a thread titled "tube adapters" regarding using these.
Tube Adapters (http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,4134.0.html)
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I feel dumb because I didn't even read the post above mine lol the irony. ordering a couple 6sn7s right now
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thanks paul
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I have spent much of the past 48 hours rolling tubes.
Output tube
Have tried the following:
1. Chatham 5998
2. Bendix 6080WB graphite
3. WE 421A
My favourite is the 421A and least favourite the Bendix
Driver tube
1. Mazda CIFTE 12AU7 1962
2. Brimar CV491 1971
3. Valvo ECC82
4. Tung Sol 12AU7A (1959 from memory) - Laddered grey plate
5. Telefunken ECC82 laddered grey plate
6. RCA 12AU7A clear top
7. Mullard ECC82 1962
8. Siemens laddered grey long plate
I can't hear a difference between the driver tubes, other than something very subtle, that is probably my imagination.
What's going on? I can think of a few options:
1. My ears are too "unlearned" to hear a difference - I would be surprised if this is the case as I have tube in the Lyr before and was able to hear a vast difference in such aspects as balance, clarity and sound stage as a result of rolling.
2. The way I have modified my Crack removes any effect from rolling driver tube - I don't know enough about circuit design to determine with this is correct or not. For what it's worth, i have the Speedball installed, Have 100 uF ES Clarity caps bypassed with 10 uF Mundorf Supreme as output caps, have replaced the final power cap with a 220 uF TC Clarity cap and have an Alps blue pot.
3. There is no difference in sound in this family of tubes in the Crack and the tube marketers have brainwashed us all
4. I didn't give the tubes enough time to burn in (which would suggest that in their embryonic state, all of the driver tubes sound the same until having reached adolescence)
Can someone please help? Do I persevere? Do I sell all my expensive driver tubes and keep a couple of RCA cleartops? Do i try other families? BTW - The amp sounds equally terrific with the various drivers.
FWIW - My tube rolling playlist consisted of Bach (portion of St Matthew Passion), Bjork, Mahler (portion of Kindertoten Lieder), Sarah McLachlan, Dire Straits, Rage Against the Machine and William Cornysh sung by the Tallis scholars (early sixteenth century sacred choral music).
Cheers!
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What sources are you feeding your Crack with?
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FLAC into Meier Audio StageDAC via optical
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For what it's worth ...
The 12AT7 is not a very linear tube, in "normal" applications; the 5670 is actually much more lnear. When we were developing the Paramount upgrade/soft-start/5670 driver, Ed made some detailed distortion measurements - measuring each harmonic individually. With the C4S plate load, the distortion spectrum of the amp was almost the same, apparently dominated by the extremely linear 300B output tube. The C4S plate load (i.e Speedball in this case) appears to linearize both drivers to the extent that the power tube distortion spectrum dominates.
Linearity is of course not the only audible difference between tube, but it's a major part of the difference (IMHO of course). This could possibly explain the difficulty of identifying a difference between drivers with the Speedball installed.
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Thanks Paul - Very helpful.
What other objective variables in the tube's physical makeup effect the listener's subjective audible perception apart from linearity? Interested to know - All part of the learning experience for me (am relatively new to audiophile pursuits).
Many thanks
Nathan
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Picked up a early 60's Siemens ECC82 silver plate.
Great sounding tube with the 5998.
Lot's of detail.
Can't complain about anything with this one.
Keb' Mo' never sounded better.
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keb' mo' fan here too.
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What are the best most Hi fi 6080 and 12au7 tubes on the market and the cost?
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What is the best beer, wine, painting, movie, book on the planet, and what does each of them cost?
OK, sorry. It's subjective. But you can search the Crack forum for the tube rolling thread to hear various opinions.
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There is a thread of Tube Rolling In Crack. The longest thread on the forum.
http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,663.0.html
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They don't really exist. But no worries, you can't afford them anyway.
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Aaah, common guys... Some good feedback is in order here... I say. and this is my opinion, one should buy as many "flavors" as you can, and sample them, then form an opinion. Come back here, express such opinion and you will then get some "constructive" feedback. No short cuts. Got to do your homework. Its a "give and take". Right?
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What are the best most Hi fi 6080 and 12au7 tubes on the market and the cost?
If I told you that the most expensive combination of possible tubes that you could put into the Crack cost as much as the Crack kit itself, would you still want to buy it? Or do you just mean a "6080" tube and a "12AU7" specifically?
The Comprehensive 6080/6AS7 Rolling Guide:
http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,3453.0.html
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If I told you that the most expensive combination of possible tubes that you could put into the Crack cost as much as the Crack kit itself, would you still want to buy it? Or do you just mean a "6080" tube and a "12AU7" specifically?
The Comprehensive 6080/6AS7 Rolling Guide:
http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,3453.0.html
Hi Nick,
Can you give me some impressions on the G.E.C Brown Base 6AS7G and the Western Electric 421A? I'm using Tung-sol 5998 (actually it's Chatham 2399) and I'm tending to upgrade to the 421A or G.E.C. What are the differences between them? And are they worth the premium between the 5998s and 421A/G.E.Cs?
And of course I'm using Speedballed Crack for this.
Best regards,
Kratos.
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I have been reading and learning all I can about tubes for the past few days. It's really been a lot of fun. A little head-spinning too though - these threads have been very, very helpful and i formative! Ive been crosschecking other websites as I learn about another tube and now Ive got a few stores bookmarked and my eBay watchlist is filled with multiple pages.
Yesterday, on a whim, I went ahead and bought a couple of tubes for my yet-to-be-completed Crack. I got a "NIB NOS" CBS Hytron 6AS7G and a CBS 5814A - not because I think they will sound better than the stock Chatham 6080 and unmarked 12AU7, but because they look really nice and Im a little OCD and I like the idea of the matching brand tubes with red CBS logos.
I better get this amp finished or else I spend a bunch of money on other things I probably don't need... :D
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If I can throw just a little sanity in here -
1) There is no universal best
2) Your best probably isn't my best
3) Price has nothing to do with whether you will like a tube or not. The only person who will always find the most expensive component to sound best simply substitutes a need to show off for having an ear. "Only" is a little misleading here, there are very many of these people. Just go to CES to see large flocks of them.
When the urge to buy the flavor of the week boutique item next strikes my suggestion is to stand back and look at why you decided to DIY. Wasn't it to learn enough to control yourself how your system sounds? Buy a bunch of cheap tubes and learn what kind of differences you can hear. Then form a judgment about what you like and don't care for, and focus your effort on getting there. Try other changes too, and see how much impact they have relative to tube changes. There might be other things that make a lot more difference. Unfortunately this doesn't apply to cans, but I think most of our customers would be better served by learning how to make their listening room sound better than by buying a new boutique capacitor. I also see a lot of guys with expensive headphones and rather mediocre sources. One needs to learn to balance all of these things rather than obsess about one.
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If I can throw just a little sanity in here -
````````````
One needs to learn to balance all of these things rather than obsess about one.
+100
I often think that the current crazy prices of some FOTM tubes is a kin to the great Tulip Mania of 1637 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania).
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Yea.... I remember that..
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Well...here is my take:
1. I find tube rolling has a surprisingly small effect on sound. I have a GEC 6AS7G brown base. In fact, I have two of them. Do I think they sound significantly different or better than the other 6AS7Gs, 6080s, 5998s, etc. that I've tried? Not really. They happen to be among the quietest tubes I've used, but I think that is just luck of the draw and specific to these particular tubes, not something that is inherent in the GEC design. I would expect there to be numerous "cheap" tubes that are just as quiet, if you can find the right one. And you can probably find any number of GEC 6AS7Gs that are very noisy. My basic position is this: I wouldn't bother "upgrading" the tubes in the Crack. Frankly, every tube I've tried has sounded excellent, and differences between tubes have been small to non-existent.
2. The drive to upgrade tubes and caps primarily stems from one source: insecurity. Something else might be better, and I'm worried that I don't have the best, so I might as well spend a bunch of money to be on the safe side. Feel free to disagree if you want, but I know that is how it works with me. It isn't that I feel a need to show off (my wife and daughters have zero interest in this stuff), it's just that I want to listen to the best possible sound. In the absence of first-hand knowledge about what sounds best, it is easiest to just spend money. That doesn't necessarily mean that what I wind up with ACTUALLY sounds the best, but it calms my anxiety. [Look, I'm wierd, OK? At least I know this about myself.]
3. I'm not yet convinced that upgrading the caps to film caps makes a huge difference, or that there are enormous differences between film caps. There may be, but the challenges in trying to rigorously test and identify those differences strike me as insurmountable. Caps may make a bigger difference in speaker crossovers, and maybe that is why we expect them to make a big difference, but I don't know if they actually do. Yet I still "upgrade" caps because I am a small, insecure and weak man.
4. This is a hobby. If upgrading caps or tubes or whatever floats your boat, then go for it. Notwithstanding my weak-willed ways, I don't see how silver wire is or could possible be better than copper wire, given that copper wire is usually thicker than silver wire, therefore more than compensating for the small advantage in silver's conductivity. But, if people want to blow money on silver wire, that's no skin off my back. I find installing film caps, and trying to figure out how to fit them, is kind of fun, so I do it.
5. It is virtually impossible to make an informed decision on how to change your system's sound. Suppose you find that your Crack is lacking in bass, or that the treble is a bit hot. Or the dynamics are lacking...whatever it is that you want to improve upon. Now, how will you go about figuring out which tube or cap to install? Pick any tube or cap, and to the extent that you can find any reviews at all, they will be reviews in someone else's system, using different components. Reviewer A will tell you that tube X has great bass punch. Reviewer B will tell you that the bass punch of tube X is sorely lacking when compared to tube Y. But Reviewer A has a separate review where he says tube Y has the worst bass he's ever heard. So, will tube X give you more or less bass? The same thing applies to caps. Reviews are all over the place, highly subjective, and basicaly worth a hill of beans. So you wind up buying something random, sticking it in, and seeing if your system still makes music that is vaguely acceptable.
6. If you want to make an immediate, obvious, objective and significant change to the sound of your system, then buy new headphones. I like to say that on a 10 point scale, the magnitude of the change in sound is 9 if changing your headphones, it is generally 2 when switching between amps using the same basic technology (e.g. among solid state amps, WOT tube amps, or OTL tube amps), it is maybe a 4 when switching between amps using different technology (e.g. switching between a solid state amp and an OTL amp), maybe a 1 when changing caps or tubes, and, I personally believe, something like a 0 when switching between DACs that cost more than $100, after equalizing for the strength of their output signal (I'm not a big believer in differences between DACs, but that didn't stop me from buying one for $1,000 that sounds just like all my other DACs...).
Best regards,
Adam
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I agree except for #5. One can make an informed decision if one is methodical and takes the time to build a set of concepts that works for them. For example, after doing several rooms and learning what I can from some well informed friends I can go into a room with a pretty good idea of how I would treat it - kill early reflections, get a certain number of sones of absorption into the room, find the bass problems and work around them, etc. On the component level I can go into a design development with a pretty good idea of how I want the power supply and regulation done based upon having done it a lot of different ways and from those experiments refining the way that has floated to the top for my hearing.
Like anything else it's a matter of building experience. The buzz on the internet about mods is a great place to start, but tailoring the particular idea to your taste is where the real satisfaction enters the picture.
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True.... Actually the sad truth is that EVERYTHING makes a difference. To what extent - is what is in question. The variables are daunting. It's unsolved, and will continue to be. All we can do is, like playing chess, make the best possible moves we can, given the information and skills etc. at our disposal. It's probably unwise to move your king out early, as it may be unwise spending too much money on component "X".
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If I told you that the most expensive combination of possible tubes that you could put into the Crack cost as much as the Crack kit itself, would you still want to buy it? Or do you just mean a "6080" tube and a "12AU7" specifically?
The Comprehensive 6080/6AS7 Rolling Guide:
http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,3453.0.html
Hi Nick,
Can you give me some impressions on the G.E.C Brown Base 6AS7G and the Western Electric 421A? I'm using Tung-sol 5998 (actually it's Chatham 2399) and I'm tending to upgrade to the 421A or G.E.C. What are the differences between them? And are they worth the premium between the 5998s and 421A/G.E.Cs?
And of course I'm using Speedballed Crack for this.
Best regards,
Kratos.
Hi Kratos
There is a NOS GEC 6AS7G going cheap on eBay international atm (auction with one day to go) - The best option, as the others have said, is to experiment and decide. The beauty of tubes is that you can sell them on if they don't suit you.
Cheers
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They'll probably go for 150+ by the end of the day.
Also the problem with buying tubes is that I find that they have lesser resell value if you bought them and you don't have a tester to affirm that they are worth what you bought them for... because recently I found out that a NOS NIB TS5998 that I had sitting around tests lower than the used TS5998 that I have in my Crack this whole time after spending some time and investing on a tube tester. And don't trust that tubes are NOS just because they're boxed... some time ago there was an auction for a bunch of Sylvania Gold Brand 6080 tubes. I've got 17 of these which are, all boxed and "NOS" as seller claims without any testing. Since I had no projects going on after finishing my Crack modding, I went onto buying and restoring a Hickok 799 and 2 B&K 667 testers. None of the tubes pegged 100% nominal Gm on the Hickok and 100+ emissions on the B&K. Morale of story? Tube sellers calibrate their testers so that their readings are higher OR tubes that have been sitting around for 20+ years simply could not have nominal GM OR my testers all suck.
If I told you that the most expensive combination of possible tubes that you could put into the Crack cost as much as the Crack kit itself, would you still want to buy it? Or do you just mean a "6080" tube and a "12AU7" specifically?
The Comprehensive 6080/6AS7 Rolling Guide:
http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,3453.0.html
Hi Nick,
Can you give me some impressions on the G.E.C Brown Base 6AS7G and the Western Electric 421A? I'm using Tung-sol 5998 (actually it's Chatham 2399) and I'm tending to upgrade to the 421A or G.E.C. What are the differences between them? And are they worth the premium between the 5998s and 421A/G.E.Cs?
And of course I'm using Speedballed Crack for this.
Best regards,
Kratos.
Hi Kratos
There is a NOS GEC 6AS7G going cheap on eBay international atm (auction with one day to go) - The best option, as the others have said, is to experiment and decide. The beauty of tubes is that you can sell them on if they don't suit you.
Cheers
-
^
Yep - A dead tube can still come with a box
Yep - It is possible for NOS tubes to have less than nominal new 100% emissions
Is this always the case? No
-
NOS tube misrepresented on eBay? Shocked! Shocked I tell you...John
-
^
ROFL
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OK, someone help me out. In January I bought one of those 6SN7 --> 12AU7 adapters on eBay. I got the one that appeared to be high-quality, with a nice ceramic socket and gold-plated pin holes. I think several others here have the same adapter. I made sure I got the 6.3V version. When it arrived, I tried it out with a couple of 6SN7s, but they all seemed noisy, although they were quiet in other amps. I chalked it up to some sort of bad "synergy" between the tubes and the Crack (w/ Speedball). I put the adapter to the side for a few months, until I got a couple more 6SN7s. Again, I pulled the adapter out and tried them with the Crack. Still noisy. Then I decided it must be the adapter. I contacted the seller, and although I was outside the complaint period, they gracefully sent me a new one at no charge (fast shipping from China, too, which is unusual). Tonight I try out the new adapter and...same problem.
Here is the exact situation: the noise is stronger in the left channel than the right. Much stronger. At low volume levels, the noise changes with the volume pot, but quickly hits maximum noise levels and stays constant after that. The tube plays music just fine - no cracking or popping or anything, just noise when I hit pause. My Crack is literally DEAD SILENT when I use it with my other input tubes, without an adapter. The noise doesn't change when I jiggle the RCA inputs. There shouldn't be any interference from other devices, as there aren't any nearby, and (again) the amp is quiet with other tubes. And the noise is the same no matter which 6SN7 tubes I use.
Anyone else have a similar experience? If so, how did you solve it? I know some people like 6SN7s with the Crack, but I can't imagine anyone would find this level of noise acceptable, so what I have must not be normal. Suggestions? What could be causing these problems?
Best regards,
Adam
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If I told you that the most expensive combination of possible tubes that you could put into the Crack cost as much as the Crack kit itself, would you still want to buy it? Or do you just mean a "6080" tube and a "12AU7" specifically?
The Comprehensive 6080/6AS7 Rolling Guide:
http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,3453.0.html
Hi Nick,
Can you give me some impressions on the G.E.C Brown Base 6AS7G and the Western Electric 421A? I'm using Tung-sol 5998 (actually it's Chatham 2399) and I'm tending to upgrade to the 421A or G.E.C. What are the differences between them? And are they worth the premium between the 5998s and 421A/G.E.Cs?
And of course I'm using Speedballed Crack for this.
Best regards,
Kratos.
Hi Kratos
There is a NOS GEC 6AS7G going cheap on eBay international atm (auction with one day to go) - The best option, as the others have said, is to experiment and decide. The beauty of tubes is that you can sell them on if they don't suit you.
Cheers
Hi w0lfd0g,
Thanks for your suggestion, but I've just searched on Ebay and I could not find it. These GECs are all well over $170, or even > $300 for a piece. I found them somewhat ridiculous 'cause I'm not planning to buy just a power tube which costs nearly as much as my Speedballed Crack :)
Unfortunately, I'm not living in the USA, so it would be much more difficult for me to sell tubes if they don't suit me. And I have no chance to listen to a tube it before I buy it to make sure it is a good and quite tube :(
I have sometimes try to blind buy some stuff that I like, because I can not have a chance to try them: the Little Dot MK3 and the Darkvoice 336SE, but all of them disappointed me. But now I'm very happy with my latest blind-buy purchase. The Crack is simply one of the best amps I've heard with my beloved HD650, I've tried HD650 with various amps, including B22 4 boards and Burson Audio HA-160 :)
Best regards,
Kratos.
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^
It went for $120
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-NIB-GEC-6AS7G-Round-Brown-Base-Audio-Tube-Valve-MOV-/221264941851?pt=AU_Electronics_Vintage_Electronics&hash=item33846b131b&nma=true&si=P4B3rkMXoHIMlrywmXQuPe858Is%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
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Quick question for you guys. I just finished my crack the other day and let it burn in for about 8 hours with no problems. Went to use it the next day and noticed the power tube was not lighting up. It will come on if I wiggle it, but eventually fades back out after 5-10 seconds. I suspected maybe it was a problem with the pin prongs in the socket making contact, but they're pretty unremarkable and not really amenable to tightening. Just wanted to check if this could be a wonky tube? And if so can anyone float me a recommendation for a solid <100$ tube? I've been looking at the 6SN7+adapter but wasn't sure they work without a speedball.
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Sounds like it is more likely a cold solder joint on the underside of the tube socket, such that you are only getting intermittent contact...
See my post above regarding my experience with using 6SN7 tubes via adapters. I've heard the same thing from at least two others. My advice is to stay away...
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Finally!
I have spent a bucket load of money on tubes in search of that enigmatic "perfect sound". I have now found the sound that is perfect for me (for now).
Thought that tube rolling was a waste of time and money in the Crack, but have stumbled upon a combination that works for me:
Driver tube: Mullard E80CC (Philips made)
Output tube: GEC 6AS7G Brown Base
Has anyone else tried this combination?
Only a matter of hours ago I described tube rolling as "Emperor's New Clothes" syndrome to a fellow forum member. I have stuck with the combination noted above for perhaps fifty hours - Maybe I didn't give tubes long enough to burn in. Maybe I am a victim of the "mass psychosis".
In any case, I am hearing clarity, bass extension and speed without the sacrifice of warmth or treble roll off to a degree I have never heard before in this system or any other.
The context? BH Crack with Speed Ball, cap upgrades, 100K Blue Alps pot, driven by a Meier Audio Stage DAC playing FLAC files. Headphones are Beyer T90s.
My Nirvana... until the urge to tinker strikes again.
-
Finally!
I have spent a bucket load of money on tubes in search of that enigmatic "perfect sound". I have now found the sound that is perfect for me (for now).
Thought that tube rolling was a waste of time and money in the Crack, but have stumbled upon a combination that works for me:
Driver tube: Mullard E80CC (Philips made)
Output tube: GEC 6AS7G Brown Base
Has anyone else tried this combination?
Only a matter of hours ago I described tube rolling as "Emperor's New Clothes" syndrome to a fellow forum member. I have stuck with the combination noted above for perhaps fifty hours - Maybe I didn't give tubes long enough to burn in. Maybe I am a victim of the "mass psychosis".
In any case, I am hearing clarity, bass extension and speed without the sacrifice of warmth or treble roll off to a degree I have never heard before in this system or any other.
The context? BH Crack with Speed Ball, cap upgrades, 100K Blue Alps pot, driven by a Meier Audio Stage DAC playing FLAC files. Headphones are Beyer T90s.
My Nirvana... until the urge to tinker strikes again.
Congrats! I have never heard the GECs, I'm currently using the Tungsram E80CC as my input tube and the Tung-sol 5998 for power tube and I really enjoyed it. Have you ever heard the 5998s? If so, can you give me some impressions on how they sound compared with the GECs? I'm planning to upgrade to the GEC 6AS7G but I'm not to sure if the differences are worth the premium or not :(
Best Regards,
Kratos.
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Hi Kratos
Do you have the Speedball installed? My experience in rolling with the Crack has only been + SB.
The 5998 was my second favourite output tube after the WE 421A (some would argue that the two are one and the same tube, but my samples varied in sound quality). Unfortunately I sold the 5998 before I could do a side by side comparison with the GEC 6AS7G. I don't trust my memory enough to be direct in my comparisons and I never tried it with the Mullard E80CC as a driver.
That said, I would be very happy with the 5998 as an output tube. Heck, I am happy with any tube in the Crack (+ SB).
My previous listening experience was that the driver tube made no difference to sound quality but there was a subtle difference in sound produced using various output tubes. I have since revised this as per the post you quoted.
However, let my experiences be a cautionary tale. I have spent over $4,000.00 in tube rolling the Crack. It took me this much money and an awful lot of time to determine that:
A. If you roll tubes in the Crack + SB, you will only get very subtle variations in sound quality
B. What works for one person may not necessarily work for another (variables such as personal preferences in sound quality and other components in the system come into play here)
C. Tube rolling can still be a lot of fun and is very addictive
I don't regret my experiences, but consider that money may have been better spent investing in some different headphones - "Rolling" headphones will get greater variation at less expense.
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Hi Kratos
Do you have the Speedball installed? My experience in rolling with the Crack has only been + SB.
The 5998 was my second favourite output tube after the WE 421A (some would argue that the two are one and the same tube, but my samples varied in sound quality). Unfortunately I sold the 5998 before I could do a side by side comparison with the GEC 6AS7G. I don't trust my memory enough to be direct in my comparisons and I never tried it with the Mullard E80CC as a driver.
That said, I would be very happy with the 5998 as an output tube. Heck, I am happy with any tube in the Crack (+ SB).
My previous listening experience was that the driver tube made no difference to sound quality but there was a subtle difference in sound produced using various output tubes. I have since revised this as per the post you quoted.
However, let my experiences be a cautionary tale. I have spent over $4,000.00 in tube rolling the Crack. It took me this much money and an awful lot of time to determine that:
A. If you roll tubes in the Crack + SB, you will only get very subtle variations in sound quality
B. What works for one person may not necessarily work for another (variables such as personal preferences in sound quality and other components in the system come into play here)
C. Tube rolling can still be a lot of fun and is very addictive
I don't regret my experiences, but consider that money may have been better spent investing in some different headphones - "Rolling" headphones will get greater variation at less expense.
Hi Nathan,
Yes, I do have the Speedball installed on my Crack.
You said that the 5998 was your second favourite output tube after the WE 421A, so where is the GEC? You don't prefer it to the 5998 and 421A? :P
Thank you for your experience, I totally agree with you. I've rolled some 12AU7s and one E80CC so far, and I've noticed that the difference in sound quality when changing the input tubes is not as noticeable as changing the output tubes.
To be honest, I bought my Crack JUST for my beloved HD650. So I'm not planning to change headphones, partly because the Cracks are OTL amps, and they are not designed to drive low impedance headphone.
Best regards,
Kratos.
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Sorry Kratos
Should have clarified that - the GEC 6AS7G is my favourite tube now and the WE 421A was my favourite tube previously. BTW, I am using the straight base version of the GEC.
Cheers!
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Sorry Kratos
Should have clarified that - the GEC 6AS7G is my favourite tube now and the WE 421A was my favourite tube previously. BTW, I am using the straight base version of the GEC.
Cheers!
Hi Nathan,
Thanks for clarifying. I've read that there is a slight difference in sound quality between the round base and straight base version of the GECs.
Have a good day and enjoy the lovely music!
Kratos.
-
Kratos,
I've spent a fair amount of time with a GEC 6as7g straight brown base (driving HD800's) - and my view, at present, is that this tube is a bit over-hyped. No doubt they are nice tubes, with a unique internal structure, but 5998's and frankly many 6080's also sound great in my crack (with speedball and other easy mods) and can be had for a lot less money.
My GEC tube sounds like a very refined, premium, noise free 6080. In terms of comparing sonics, through my setup w/ hd800's, 5998's sound slightly brighter, livelier and more holographic. The GEC and 6080's are slightly more laid back and have a bit more mid-bass - particularly around 100hz where the hd800's have a significant spike in their impedance curve. This all makes sense given that 5998's/7236's lower your output impedance (considered a good thing by many) but also raise the gain, which may or may not be a good thing in your setup. (See also page 2 of http://www.pmillett.com/Wheatfield/rolling.pdf - similarly describing the sonic differences between these tubes.)
At approximately equal volume, if I throw on bass heavy tracks (e.g. 2pac's "u can't see me"), I perceive that the bass hits harder and fuller if I'm running my GEC 6as7g (or, for that matter, my other 6080's), when compared to any of my handful of 5998's. In the 6as7 thread on head-fi, folks with different amps and headphones have claimed just the opposite - that 5998's have more bass, which may be the case with the headphones they are using. As I understand it, the impedance curve of the headphone is going to impact the effect of the change in output impedance. Check out, for example, this thread on hd800's and high output impedance amps: http://www.changstar.com/index.php?topic=90.0.
All in all, I certainly would not drop the 2 bills ebay sellers are currently charging for GEC tubes. I paid $100 for mine, and I doubt I would be inclined to pay that much again. I like the tube, but I would say that I find myself reaching for my 5998's just as often. In fact, for the last couple of weeks, I've been experimenting with a number of dirt cheap JAN 6080's that have me second guessing whether it makes any sense at all to pay for "premium" 6as7 equivalents. I paid $15 for a pair of Chatham's on ebay that are dead quiet, not even remotely microphonic, and which had me listening to fournier's rendition of bach's cello concertos until the wee hours the night before last. If I manage to take my own good advice, I'll stop collecting surplus tubes and save my pennies for the bh dac.
My favorite a-socket tube is still a tung sol 12bh7.
-
I have HD800s, two GEC brown-base (straight) 6AS7Gs, five 5998s, a Bendix 6080 with graphite plates, and any number of other 6AS7Gs and 6080s.
I pretty much agree with everything dubiousmike wrote below (except that I paid waaaaaaaaaay more than he did for my GEC 6AS7Gs). A few further notes:
1. I like my GEC because it is quiet, not because it sounds better.
2. The GECs are not the only quiet tubes out there. In particular, I find the 6080s of all brands and prices tend to be quite quiet.
3. I don't notice any differences in bass compared to my 5998s one way or the other, but I frankly haven't tried to compare that and don't plan to. Any differences much be tiny, so I'm not surprised that people fall on both sides of that fence.
4. I wouldn't bother replacing the output tube unless it is somehow broken. Every tube I've tried sounds good... Well, except for the first tube I got, which went kablooey the first time I fired up my Crack (the tube was bad, the amp was fine).
5. I'm using a Mullard 12BH7, but just about every driver tube I've tried has sounded good, too.
Tube rolling just doesn't seem like a wise use of money to me. If you want to tweak the sound of your rig, your money is much, much better spent on headphones (Sennheisers in particular are outstanding with the Crack).
Regards,
Adam
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Kratos,
My GEC tube sounds like a very refined, premium, noise free 6080. In terms of comparing sonics, through my setup w/ hd800's, 5998's sound slightly brighter, livelier and more holographic. The GEC and 6080's are slightly more laid back and have a bit more mid-bass - particularly around 100hz where the hd800's have a significant spike in their impedance curve. This all makes sense given that 5998's/7236's lower your output impedance (considered a good thing by many) but also raise the gain, which may or may not be a good thing in your setup. (See also page 2 of http://www.pmillett.com/Wheatfield/rolling.pdf - similarly describing the sonic differences between these tubes.)
At approximately equal volume, if I throw on bass heavy tracks (e.g. 2pac's "u can't see me"), I perceive that the bass hits harder and fuller if I'm running my GEC 6as7g (or, for that matter, my other 6080's), when compared to any of my handful of 5998's. In the 6as7 thread on head-fi, folks with different amps and headphones have claimed just the opposite - that 5998's have more bass, which may be the case with the headphones they are using. As I understand it, the impedance curve of the headphone is going to impact the effect of the change in output impedance. Check out, for example, this thread on hd800's and high output impedance amps: http://www.changstar.com/index.php?topic=90.0.
All in all, I certainly would not drop the 2 bills ebay sellers are currently charging for GEC tubes. I paid $100 for mine, and I doubt I would be inclined to pay that much again. I like the tube, but I would say that I find myself reaching for my 5998's just as often. If I manage to take my own good advice, I'll stop collecting surplus tubes and save my pennies for the bh dac.
My favorite a-socket tube is still a tung sol 12bh7.
Hi dubiousmike,
First of all, thank you very much for your superb detailed and helpful advice!
As far as I know and thanks to what you said, I assume that the HD650's ( or 'dark', slow and 'veiled' headphones ) are more suitable to the 5998's as their sound is bright, fast and detailed; whereas the GEC 6AS7G's are for the bright, fast, detailed headphones like the HD800's to give them more mid-bass and 'tubey' sound. Am I right?
And yes, I would definitely save my money for the coming BH DAC. I bet it is gonna be great when paired with the Cracks :D :D
All the best,
Kratos.
-
Honestly, just don't worry about tubes. I don't know how much more plainly to say it.
-
I pretty much agree with everything dubiousmike wrote below (except that I paid waaaaaaaaaay more than he did for my GEC 6AS7Gs). A few further notes:
1. I like my GEC because it is quiet, not because it sounds better.
2. The GECs are not the only quiet tubes out there. In particular, I find the 6080s of all brands and prices tend to be quite quiet.
3. I don't notice any differences in bass compared to my 5998s one way or the other, but I frankly haven't tried to compare that and don't plan to. Any differences much be tiny, so I'm not surprised that people fall on both sides of that fence.
4. I wouldn't bother replacing the output tube unless it is somehow broken. Every tube I've tried sounds good... Well, except for the first tube I got, which went kablooey the first time I fired up my Crack (the tube was bad, the amp was fine).
5. I'm using a Mullard 12BH7, but just about every driver tube I've tried has sounded good, too.
Tube rolling just doesn't seem like a wise use of money to me. If you want to tweak the sound of your rig, your money is much, much better spent on headphones (Sennheisers in particular are outstanding with the Crack).
Regards,
Adam
Hi Adam,
Haha, sorry to hear about what you paid for your GEC 6AS7Gs, they have been crazy expensive these day :P
Now I think I would stop collecting premium tubes and wait for the BH DAC, do you know when it will be released and its expected price?
Best,
Kratos.
-
Nope. Nobody does. But I expect it to be at least 2 months away from availability, and probably longer. The design of the digital section isn't finalized. Then Doc needs to handle the analog sections. Then they need to finalize parts. Then write the manual and take pictures. Then they need to source parts and receive them. Then they need to pack and ship. They are working on it, but this won't be done in the next week or four.
I'm sure the Bottlehead team will jump in if I am disseminating misinformation.
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Honestly, just don't worry about tubes. I don't know how much more plainly to say it.
:'(
If only I had heard these words from Adam two months ago. But, fwiw, I can hear a difference between output tubes in my system. There is just a disproportionate relationship between the money spent to experience the difference and the magnitude of the differences.
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I think our design philosophy has probably not been discussed as much as it should lately. Basically, we feel that the sonic impact of the circuit design itself outweighs all of the parts swapping. So the tube rolling and cap swapping that seems to positively consume some builders, while it does certainly have a sonic impact, is just the final tuning step and not a thing that "fixes" a problem. Changing a tube is more like your short brunette girlfriend changed her hairstyle than like you got a new tall blonde one. Some of us wouldn't even notice if Norah Jones got a haircut, but no one is gonna miss the difference between Norah Jones and Charlize Theron.
Everyone should pursue a hobby in such a manner that it gives them maximum satisfaction. I imagine that if some tube and cap rollers spent an equal amount of energy learning as much as possible about how the circuits that they are rolling parts thru work they would find the hobby even more rewarding.
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I think our design philosophy has probably not been discussed as much as it should lately. Basically, we feel that the sonic impact of the circuit design itself outweighs all of the parts swapping. So the tube rolling and cap swapping that seems to positively consume some builders, while it does certainly have a sonic impact, is just the final tuning step and not a thing that "fixes" a problem. Changing a tube is more like your short brunette girlfriend changed her hairstyle than like you got a new tall blonde one. Some of us wouldn't even notice if Norah Jones got a haircut, but no one is gonna miss the difference between Norah Jones and Charlize Theron.
Everyone should pursue a hobby in such a manner that it gives them maximum satisfaction. I imagine that if some tube and cap rollers spent an equal amount of energy learning as much as possible about how the circuits that they are rolling parts thru work they would find the hobby even more rewarding.
I am, admittedly, a frequent offender. That said, this should be added as a sticky in every product forum.
-
There ideally should be some sort of 'zen' about the whole process. That, of course, is ideal in most, if not all, situations in life, depending one ones philosophy etc. Doc makes some good points. Mindless lust for "better" sound is a "fools errand"... (god I love that pirate shit!) - but what CAN be a positive is getting to know these various parts, relative to how they sound in kit "A" vs speaker crossover "B", vs. whatever. Parts definitely make a "difference". Rolling tubes makes a difference. Its all part of the game. We only have so many years on this earth. Thats why people spend thousands of buccaneers on caps/tubes/yourcurrentobsession
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I always roll. With Bottlehead gear I roll before the stuff even gets here. Lead time ya know.
I like it, I call it the "research" period.
For Crack, I have a couple of Solen 100 uf poly films 'cause everyone knows that anything is better than electrolytic for coupling caps.
And I got some Sylvania triple mica 6080's and some RCA side getter clear tops.
Why? Cause Doc said that was what he was going to put in with the first 6 "special deal" orders and I knew I was not in the "6"
Yeah, you talk about how good stock is, but then you ply us with "special" tube offers.
The only valve gear I have that I never rolled tubes in is the K12G kit that started me down this glass path. It still has the original 10GV8's in it.
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I have built two of these Crack's with Speedball now. Both amps SHINE with Mullard Box Plate CV4003's. Best tube in my amps far and above anything else and I have them all I think.
John
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I bought one on your rec.
I'm done. I am getting close to the line.
Never spend more on accessories than you spent on the item to be accessorized.
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Never spend more on accessories than you spent on the item to be accessorized.
Spend to whatever level you like, provided:
1. It is within your means
2. It brings you enjoyment
The line is different for everyone, gentlemen.
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Oh, I don't care what anybody else spends, just me.
I figure if I spent more on accessories that I did on the original item, I would have been better off just buying something better in the first place.
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That sounds logical to me! :)
I'm just very happy with the amp I have and its fit with the rest of my system. I don't mind spending a bit more on optimising it!
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I think Nathan has expressed a "truism" that hits us modders in the gut. We are much more inclined to experiment with kit that was affordable to obtain. I felt that way with the Quickie and my Maggie MMG's. I just went crazy on them. Why not? A great experience that I would have never had with high priced kit. IMO.....
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I got home from a business trip today and my new tubes were waiting for me! CBS 6AS7G and CBS 5814A. I can't tell any difference in sound quality from the stock tubes, but microphonics are much improved. And they look so good!
(https://www.head-fi.org/image/id/4930890/width/900/height/900/flags/LL)
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I ordered a Tung Sol 5998 tube, and so I'm hoping to try that out soon. I hear there is a very noticeable improvement, especially because it is a different design (or something?).
However, I am wondering if replacing the small tube makes a big difference. If so, what type of tubes could I be looking at if I'm going to be working with a Tung Sol 5998 for the big tube?
Thanks!
-
Read through the last couple of pages in this thread. As far as I'm concerned, the benefits of rolling either tube are quite limited, particularly if you have installed the Speedball. And if you haven't installed the Speedball, then you are far better off installing the Speedball than spending money on tubes. None of the tubes I have tried has been a reliable, significant and cost-effective improvement over the stock tubes, which could very well wind up being less microphonic and noisy than whatever you replace them with, regardless of cost. And note that I say that without evening knowing what stock tubes you received. Why? Because it ultimately doesn't matter what you got with your kit.
Still, some people enjoy rolling tubes, so you won't get any arguments here if you decide to try for yourself. But if you are on the fence and money is tight, you can be secure that you aren't missing out on anything at all. And if you do decide to roll tubes, don't set your expectations too high, or you are likely to be disappointed.
Best regards,
Adam
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Read through the last couple of pages in this thread. As far as I'm concerned, the benefits of rolling either tube are quite limited, particularly if you have installed the Speedball. And if you haven't installed the Speedball, then you are far better off installing the Speedball than spending money on tubes. None of the tubes I have tried has been a reliable, significant and cost-effective improvement over the stock tubes, which could very well wind up being less microphonic and noisy than whatever you replace them with, regardless of cost. And note that I say that without evening knowing what stock tubes you received. Why? Because it ultimately doesn't matter what you got with your kit.
Still, some people enjoy rolling tubes, so you won't get any arguments here if you decide to try for yourself. But if you are on the fence and money is tight, you can be secure that you aren't missing out on anything at all. And if you do decide to roll tubes, don't set your expectations too high, or you are likely to be disappointed.
Best regards,
Adam
+1
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Hey guys,
I've done some research, and there's glowing praise for the 12BH7A as a replacement for the 12AU7 in the Bottlehead Crack. I read one post which said there had to be a circuit modification.
Can anyone confirm if the 12BH7A needs any sort of circuit modification to work in the Bottlehead Crack + Speedball upgrade?
Also, having a 12BH7A and a Tung Sol 5998 would work, right? Or is there some circuitry/electronics reason why the two might not work together?
Thank you so much.
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With the Speedball, the 12BH7 will function in the circuit, but it changes the operating point of the 6080 pretty dramatically.
I'd remove the red LED's on the 9 pin socket and replace them with 1.2K resistors (1/8W is plenty) to bump up the bias a bit, and bring the plate voltage up to ~90V (with the Speedball).
-PB
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With the Speedball, the 12BH7 will function in the circuit, but it changes the operating point of the 6080 pretty dramatically.
I'd remove the red LED's on the 9 pin socket and replace them with 1.2K resistors (1/8W is plenty) to bump up the bias a bit, and bring the plate voltage up to ~90V (with the Speedball).
-PB
Thanks for the great info! You mentioned that it'll change the operating point of the 6080, but if I have a Tung Sol 5998 in, would I still be advised to make the modifications you mentioned?
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Yes.
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PB,
You said "with the Speedball", do you suggest to do similar mod to stock Crack if I want to try 12BH7 tube?
How about 6SN7 that I'm currently using to drive Chatham 2399 with my stock crack? Does 6SN7 change the operating point of the 2399 as well or is it going to after I install Speedball?
Please respond.
Thanks,
Kris
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PB,
You said "with the Speedball", do you suggest to do similar mod to stock Crack if I want to try 12BH7 tube?
How about 6SN7 that I'm currently using to drive Chatham 2399 with my stock crack? Does 6SN7 change the operating point of the 2399 as well or is it going to after I install Speedball?
Please respond.
Thanks,
Kris
I would like to know this too, I'm using 2399 in my speedballed crack as well. Does 6SN7's change the operating point of the 2399?
Thanks,
Kratos.
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Kratos,
I think PB is on vacation right now, so it may take him a while to respond.
-
I'm thinking of putting a VT-231/6SN7 to replace the 12AU7 using a 6SN7 to 12AU7 adapter. I heard there does not have to be circuit modifications for the stock Crack, but I'm wondering if I need any circuit modifications if I have the Speedball installed?
Thanks!
-
No.
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I have discovered another tube combo that I am digging at the moment:
Output: Tung Sol 7236
Driver: Siemens & Halske ECC82 silver plate
I find it to be more aggressive (and less warm) than my GEC 6AS7G + Mullard ECC80 combo, but tight, clear and an awesome sound stage.
Does anyone know if I need to make any alterations to the circuit to optimise the Crack for the 7236? I can't imagine it sounding much better than it does atm.
If alterations are required for this combo, I am considering building another kit just for kicks and giggles. One for each of my favourite tube combos.
Cheers
Nathan
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I'm thinking of putting a VT-231/6SN7 to replace the 12AU7 using a 6SN7 to 12AU7 adapter. I heard there does not have to be circuit modifications for the stock Crack, but I'm wondering if I need any circuit modifications if I have the Speedball installed?
Thanks!
Hi Pepper,
No, you won't have to do any mods if you want to use a 6SN7 in your Crack.
You can check my review here:
http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,4679.15.html
Best,
Kratos.
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Hi all :)
Finally pulled the trigger on 5998 today (ordered from http://www.vacuumtubes.net/), hope to feel the excitement again like all the past upgrades (sb, output caps, dac upgrade, etc...)
wish me luck ;)
Lior
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Hi all :)
Finally pulled the trigger on 5998 today (ordered from http://www.vacuumtubes.net/), hope to feel the excitement again like all the past upgrades (sb, output caps, dac upgrade, etc...)
wish me luck ;)
Lior
Hi Lior,
Nice! I bought my Chatham 2399 from vacuumtubes.net too. My Chatham has some bits of glass inside, but it works perfectly fine so it does not bother me very much. The 5998 is absolutely great, although I still think it's a little bit expensive.
Good luck with your purchase and happy listening!
Kratos.
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Hello Gents,
Yes, I was out in the middle of nowhere (Wyoming/Montana).
With the stock Crack and the 12BH7, I would recommend:
2.5V bias
5mA current
75V plate
The 2.5V of bias and 5mA of current means a pair of 500 Ohm cathode resistors in place of the LED's.
Getting 75V on the plates from the raw power supply means the 22K plate load resistors should become 17K, with a 2W rating.
-PB
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Many thanks Paul for explanation.
Also, can you please post your answer to second part of my original question about 6SN7 tube? Does the 6SN7 change operating point of the 2399 or maybe it's going to after I install Speedball?
Thanks in advance,
Kris
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The 6SN7 will function with the stock parts.
-PB
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While waiting for my 5998, I'm really enjoying my new Mullard set (6as7g with 12au7) :)
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Thank you PB.
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I stopped playing around with bypassing the Dayton film caps in the Crack, and rolled in a 'platinum' NOS Mullard CV4003 from Upscale. More prominent (and fuller) mids, more air around instruments for sure, deeper bass, but there was still something missing.
Got a vintage RCA 6080 from Jim McShane, replaced the stock Sylvania 6080 with the RCA tube and, Whoa, Nelly!! I'm just about not believing what I'm hearing thru the HD600s with this combination.
Why did it take me so long to discover this? I wasted several thousand dollars looking for what I could have had for closer to $750.
A Crack and a pair of high impedance 'phones ought to be mandatory continuing auditory education before folks go spending big bucks on audio gear chasing 'the absolute sound'.
-
I got excellent results with the "incentive" tubes Dan offered to the first "lucky 6"
An NOS Sylvania triple mica 6080 and an NOS RCA clear top side getter.
Both bought off ebay for about $12 each
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I got excellent results with the "incentive" tubes Dan offered to the first "lucky 6"
An NOS Sylvania triple mica 6080 and an NOS RCA clear top side getter.
Both bought off ebay for about $12 each
I've got some JAN Phillips triple mica 6080's which are probably the same rebranded tube that are the best of the 6080's I've heard.
Still the best 12au7 in my cracks are the CV4003 Mullard box plates.
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I did get one of those box plates and it does sound the best. A little richer in the mids I would say.
And I do mean a little. It cost $85. I would much rather have 6 RCA clear tops.
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I did get one of those box plates and it does sound the best. A little richer in the mids I would say.
And I do mean a little. It cost $85. I would much rather have 6 RCA clear tops.
Ouch, I just snagged a pair for $20 :(
-
Finally pulled the trigger on a Chatham Tung-Sol 5998 and WOW! much better than the 6080 in my opinion. Tighter bass. Much more clarity.
Crack is even more amazing!
John
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Have you ever hear a GEC 6AS7G brown base, John? I love mine, but I've never heard a 5998 to compare it with.
-
Never heard one.
This Chatham Tung-Sol 5998 is where its at. Best 6080 variant I've heard to date.
I'm streaming MOG now listening to Dylan and I'm blown away. The 5998 is a bit expensive but worth the money if you ask me.
Looks cooler too.
-
Having my farewell session with the Crack atm. Tung Sol 7236 + 1959 Amperex 7316 with D Getter - Heaven.
But tube rolling has been too addictive for me. Going SS for a while. Selling my Crack, all my tubes and my tube tester.
So long and thanks for all the fish.
-
Having my farewell session with the Crack atm. Tung Sol 7236 + 1959 Amperex 7316 with D Getter - Heaven.
But tube rolling has been too addictive for me. Going SS for a while. Selling my Crack, all my tubes and my tube tester.
So long and thanks for all the fish.
You'll be back. ;)
-
Having my farewell session with the Crack atm. Tung Sol 7236 + 1959 Amperex 7316 with D Getter - Heaven.
But tube rolling has been too addictive for me. Going SS for a while. Selling my Crack, all my tubes and my tube tester.
So long and thanks for all the fish.
What kind of tube tester do you have?
-
Hi John
It's just a emissions tester, but quite a nice one: Precision Apparatus 612 (with manual, tube test data and updates). Hardwired for Australian voltage and digitally modified to reduce warm up time (I'm quoting the person I bought it from).
Cheers
-
I have a 612 as well. It tends to be uncommon to find a tester with all the old jumbo sockets - this one was just the ticket!
-
Hi I am after a little help.
I note the Brimar 13D5 tube is not listed in post 1 "drop in equivalents" list but have seen it listed as a 12UA7 direct replacement I am a bit wary of taking "direct replacement" comments as gospel?
Has anyone used or are using a in their Crack if so could you please share your views on it.
Cheers
Edit I just finished reading all 40 odd pages of this thread over the last week its been quiet educational for a newbie and given me plenty of ideas of what tubes to look out for and different combinations to try when my Crack gets delivered so thanks guys.
-
What other soze tubes can I use other than 6080?
-
http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,663.0.html
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I have just finished reading through all the posts on the tube rolling thread and found it very worth while to do so lots of info.
This one is full of info also.
http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=3453.0
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I have just finished reading through all the posts on the tube rolling thread and found it very worth while to do so lots of info.
This one is full of info also.
http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=3453.0
Surprise is, ever since I wrote that article the only tube I've been using is the GB6080 from Sylvania. If it weren't so rare I'd happily recommend it over the 5998 any day for affordable tube rolling
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Let me share my tube experience with the crack:
Sylvania 6080GB - Like Nick Tam said in his review it's the most liquid tube. I prefer it for it's musicality over the 5998.
Bendix 6080 - Most detail tube for the crack hands down. It beats the 5998, more microdetail, larger soundstage, deeper bass.
Tung Sol 5998 Very good all round tube
I also have other 6080 tubes like Sylvania, RCA, Raytheon and do a fine job but nothing special.
CBS 5814WA/A - Holy grail for Crack in my opinion. Others tubes in the 5814/12AU7 family sound muffled in my opinion compared to these. The combination with Bendix 6080 takes my HD700 to a whole different level. I read a review on some tube and there was a comment that the Best 12AU7 are 6SN7. The way how he described the 6SN7 tubes compared to the 12AU7/5814 family is exactly the same way I found the CBS tubes. Very detailed, excellent synergy with TungSol/Bendix/Sylvania GB. They are so good that I bought three just to have some backups.
Sylvania 5814A. Good allround tube, not quite at the level of the CBS.
I loved my tube rolling experience but sadly everything has to go since I am considering a Mainline.
Bottlehead Crack + Speedball + Mundorf Output caps.
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When you decide to unload, check with Dan first, and then post your auctions here. Always give Bottleheads a first dibs.
I have been giving away LPs for a couple of years (I get postage) here. And that will pick up again now I have the newly bought ones cleaned.
Dan, if I am out of line, I'll delete this post.
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Hey y'all,
I'm looking for an input tube that would pair well with my new TS5998. I'm looking for something that will bring the mids a little more forward and bring some more punch down low. My current headphone is the Senn HD650. I'm almost there guys; I can feel myself getting closer to audio nirvana.
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fr9FJe.gif&hash=ba1aa299cf8195c485efa05fc22f3ddfca355543)
Thanks,
Zia Warrior Princess
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I use the Amperex 7316 with the TS 5998 in my crack. Really wonderful pairing.. the mids are fleshed out, both ends are extended and the soundstage is huge. I did try the Siemens silver plate 12au7 but found it a bit too lean for my taste. Btw, I'm using the Beyer T90.
I've ordered a Philips E80CC which should be arriving in a week's time. I was told its even better than the 7316.. we'll see. :)
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I use the Amperex 7316 with the TS 5998 in my crack. Really wonderful pairing.. the mids are fleshed out, both ends are extended and the soundstage is huge. I did try the Siemens silver plate 12au7 but found it a bit too lean for my taste. Btw, I'm using the Beyer T90.
I've ordered a Philips E80CC which should be arriving in a week's time. I was told its even better than the 7316.. we'll see. :)
I have a Philips E80CC and Tungsram E80CC, which is told to be even better than the Philips. And they are all wonderful, but unfortunately I did not have any chance to listen to the 7316. Please post your impressions as soon as you receive your tubes. Because I deciding to get a 7316 :)
Thanks in advance,
Kratos.
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I really like the Mullard cv4003 box plate with the TS 5998. When using a 6080 I like the RCA clear top. The previous is my first choice though.
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I really like the Mullard cv4003 box plate with the TS 5998. When using a 6080 I like the RCA clear top. The previous is my first choice though.
What type of headphones are using with that combination?
I have what I think is a Mullard cv4003 box plate but have been reluctant to try it due to the fact there are no markings remaining on the glass which seems quiet thick and has what appears on the inside of the glass to be a very fine textured surface. It was in with some other tubes marked 12au7 which have all been ok
I am thinking its probable to old to be any good but would like to give it a try if it is a 12au7 but I don't want to risk damaging the amp if its not suitable.
[(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.head-fi.org%2F4%2F4a%2F200x200px-ZC-4a71d0c3_003.jpeg&hash=79d4601c89d6674b001e4cb54904f2d3adce6e70)
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.head-fi.org%2F2%2F25%2F200x200px-ZC-254cb23e_004.jpeg&hash=bf682134c271e601df32de92e88decea1718dacc)
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.head-fi.org%2F0%2F03%2F200x200px-ZC-03c6cf20_008.jpeg&hash=8399ceb3835880e7100e1ee3f6019beac7ddeb46)
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.head-fi.org%2F3%2F31%2F200x200px-ZC-31a723bd_011.jpeg&hash=fc8d9b20bc298cab14e0efac5e193cc43ac4e369)
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.head-fi.org%2F0%2F05%2F200x200px-ZC-05f00e56_009.jpeg&hash=db00f46e95c1bdf11179595e05f59a0c49d8d386)
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Hey y'all,
I got a good deal on an Amperex bugle boy E82CC. I'll also be looking into finding the others recommended. I'll be back with my impressions when I get it. I ordered it to my brother's place in Chicago (I live in Toronto) but he wont be back until christmas. :'(
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I have seen some 6080WB tubes on the forums that are recommended when labelled Bendix/Tung-Sol. I have very little knowledge and I am trying to learn more about tube-rolling. I have a possibility of buying a Raytheon 6080WB from the 70's. Does the listed company and the year matter?
If not, how aurally disparate would the difference be? (if possible to even predict)
Thanks!
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That sure looks like a Mullard box plate, if you have access to a tube tester that would help identify it. Maybe some of the experts on here could give you more ideas to determine if it is a 12au7. I am using the crack as a preamp in my audio system not as a headphone amp, so tube selection could be different.
Try a few combinations until you find your preferred sound.
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You can run that Mullard in the Crack with no 6080, then measure the voltages at T1 and T5. If they are 70-90V, you have a 12AU7.
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You can run that Mullard in the Crack with no 6080, then measure the voltages at T1 and T5. If they are 70-90V, you have a 12AU7.
Thanks Paul that's a useful thing to know. It checked out and sounds ok at low/average levels but starts to distort quickly when the volumes turned up a bit. Listening to some Simon and Garfunkel live from New York city 1967 with it at the mo its not bad with the vocals and with the acoustic guitars. But its probably seen better days.
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I really like the Mullard cv4003 box plate with the TS 5998. When using a 6080 I like the RCA clear top. The previous is my first choice though.
+1
5998 RCA clear top is a nice combo with the HD650 but is a touch tinny with the T1's I tend to match these with a Mullard ECC82.
I do have a Tung-Sol JTL 12AU7 early 1950's which pairs well with the 5998 and works well with both headphones above it still has that higher definition of the clear top that works well with the HD650 but doesn't sound tinny or over the top with the T1's .
I would like to try one of those Tung sol 12au7 black glass tubes. They seem to have good write ups and I am curious to how a more premium 12au7 tube will compare to the E80cc's which quiet a few like here.
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I recently bought a nice pair of Sylvania 12BH7 from ebay to try out in place of the Amperex 7316. When I installed it, there was a loud buzzing sound on both channels. Same buzzing sound with the other tube in the pair. When I put back the Amperex 7316, everything was back to normal (thankfully!).
Anyone can help explain why there is a buzzing sound? Is the 12BH7 not a drop in replacement in the crack? Or could both the Sylvania 12BH7 be faulty? By the way, I have the speedball upgrade and running a TS 5998.
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This thread has 12AU7 equivalents in it. It also applies to Crack. The parameters on a 12BH7 is not the same as a 12AU7. The 12BH7 is used as a regulator in the Eros. Has someone suggested the 12BH7 in this thread? Did it work for them?
http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,1027.0.html
I see now that Caucasian Blackplate (Paul) recommends changes to the circuit if you use a 12BH7.
Here: http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,663.msg45798/topicseen.html#msg45798
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Thanks Grainger. I've read the post from PB, and I also remembered reading about not needing the mod if the speedball is installed.
In any case, I was expecting that the worst case scenario would be a loss of sound quality. Did not expect such a dramatic loud buzzing sound :o. Still wondering if the 12BH7 tubes are defective.
I also have a pair of Philips E80CC coming my way from Ukraine to try out as the driver tube. Any advice on compatibility issues with the E80CC, and do I need to make any mod to the stock crack + speedball to accomodate it?
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Buzzing means there was a bad ground connection. It was probably bad contact of one or more of the tube pins in the tube socket. It's not because it was a 12BH7, more likely corroded tube pins or just a bad tube.
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Thanks Doc. I checked the pins on both the 12BH7 and they look fine. Its strange that both tubes had such a loud buzzing sound, even with the volume turned off. The 7316 tube is totally silent, so I do not think its the crack.
Is there any way to check out the tube without plugging into the amp? I don't have a tube tester and I'm reluctant to plug the 12BH7 back into the crack again for fear of damaging it... I'm totally in love with my crack and any damage to it would devastate me.
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Buy a different 12BH7.
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Hey everyone, I'm the lucky new owner of a crack+speedball kit, and I need some advice! I'll be using the crack to replace my schiit valhalla, which I run along with some beyerdynamic t1s. Good recordings sound great thru the valhalla, but there is no forgiveness for poorly mixed treble, and darker tubes seem to fix this for the t1s (at least, on my roomie's darkvoice). I was wondering what tubes you guys might recommend for bringing out a bit of bass in the t1s, and especially curbing the treble. I've read through some of the posts here, and saw the Mullard ECC82 recommended for the t1s, along with the standard 5998. Is this a good start for the t1s? Are there other respected pairings for the t1s? Thanks much in advance, I am new to the forum, so I hope I'm not breaking any rules! :P
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For less treble, the newer Russian 12AU7's should help out a bit. Also, not using a digital source is potentially more helpful than any tube rolling.
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I have the Beyer T90 running with crack + speedball. Currently using the TS 5998 with Amperex 7316. Very nice and balanced combo, the T90 does not sound harsh at all. The mids are full bodied and the highs are sweet, not shrill. I've also tried the Siemens 12AU7 silver plates, but it tilted the T90 to the bright side a bit.
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I've read through some of the posts here, and saw the Mullard ECC82 recommended for the t1s, along with the standard 5998. Is this a good start for the t1s? Are there other respected pairings for the t1s? Thanks much in advance, I am new to the forum, so I hope I'm not breaking any rules! :P
I think its a great place to start and will be very good as a reference for future rolling. Let us know how you get on.
I am running the T1 Crack + Speedball with 5998 at the moment and had started taking a few notes to use as a base line for future choices, its in rather raw form at the moment as it
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Thanks for all the replies guys! From what everyone's saying, it sounds like I'll be looking into those 5998s with the Mullard ECC82s for my first new set. As far as source goes, I always prefer to listen to vinyl when it's available, and generally there's no treble issue. However, most unsigned, independent artists don't have the money for pressing records :( so an enjoyable digital source is pretty necessary for me and my eclectic music tastes :P
Thanks again everyone!
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Can anybody help with identifying which variant or age of Mullard 6080 this is? I am positive its a Mullard as the older style edge and bottom of the shield logo is faintly discernible as are the 8 & 0. It has triple spiky mica and double halo getters each off of its own set of goalposts.
In the gap between the second and third mica there is some black plates shielding? It would be nice to know the correct name for this metal plate also.
(https://www.head-fi.org/image/id/5460695/width/900/height/900/flags/LL)
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.head-fi.org%2Fa%2Fa0%2F900x900px-LL-a053f8a2_036.jpeg&hash=74b305484ff63a1de093f4f4e99e8f93076caaf9)
(https://www.head-fi.org/image/id/5460640/width/900/height/900/flags/LL)
(https://www.head-fi.org/image/id/5460641/width/900/height/900/flags/LL)
Thanks if anyone can help.
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I recently picked up a NOS Mullard 6080, it has similarities to your photos. The date code on it is 'AJ1 R0F4' which I think dates it to June 1970, Mitchum factory.
Only top 2 mica are 'spiky' & single halo getter with no shield at the top like yours. Likely yours is earlier?
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I have a RCA 6080, quite "recent", that has the exact same construction, especially with the metal base. I use it in my Crack since the beginning. It's dead silent, non microphonic. It tried a bunch of 6as7g and always came back to the 6080.
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I am really liking the Mullard 6080 and its giving my 5998's a real run for the money at a fraction of the price. I wouldn't like to do a blind test and I nearly didn't even try it!
It was in a box of three mixed 6080 I picked up for a few pounds brought really just as spares in case of problem with the build, 1xrca 1xtung sol (which I dropped and broke) and the Mullard which was just ignored as at the time as I could not make out the markings which were left on the tube at all. Then the 5998's and GEC brown base arrived and I never got round to plugging it in. I was having a round up of a few tubes to move on and pulled it out had a look with the magnifying glass identified it plugged it in and suddenly hmm its got me questioning the need and cost of the 5998's. It even sounds good with some of my cheapie 12au7s.
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Buy a different 12BH7.
I finally received a pair of Philips E80CC and a pair of Tungsram E80CC from Ukraine after 1 month of shipping time. When I plug the E80CC, the same (very) loud buzzing sound was heard through the headphone. Similar result with the Sylvania 12BH7 and Tungsram E80CC.
I replaced the TS 5998 with a Bendix 6080WB. No buzzing sound at start up, and the music is fine. Swapped in my second (spare) TS5998, and the same loud buzzing sound is back.
Could it be a compatibility issue between the TS 5998 and 12BH7/E80CC?
The TS 5998 works with 12AU7, 7316, and 6SN7 (with adapter). Extremely loud buzzing sound with 12BH7 and E80CC, even with the volume turned down.
Anyone with similar experience?
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What're the voltages at terminals 1, 5, 7, and 9 with the BH7 and 5998?
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I get a loud buzzing on my 5998 too, at least for the first minute as the tubes warm up. After that it becomes completely silent. I checked the voltages and everything was within 10-15%, so I don't know.
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Can you post what they are?
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I can get them Friday when I go back to work after the holiday. I was using the equipment there today to measure it, but I didn't write anything down as I checked it. I remember the high voltages were about 5-10% above the ones in the manual. Is the buzzing a bad sign?
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Okay, new discovery. The buzzing is only present if the volume is at 0. As soon as I move it away from zero the amp goes silent. That is interesting.
Sorry to bring this into the rolling thread, I had already mentioned this in another thread, but i just saw that someone else had a similar problem...
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Thanks for the input. Unfortunately, I'm not able to verify the voltages right now because I just loaned out the 5998 to a good mate for a couple of weeks to try out in his amp. Really strange phenomena, I am suspecting if there is something wrong with my pair of 5998.
My initial voltage check was near perfect, but it was done with the stock GE 6080 + 12AU7 tubes. Would a different type of tube pose a different set of voltage readings?
Running in the Bendix 6080 + Philips E80CC right now. Sound is very similar to the 5998 + 7316, and I may like this new combo a bit better because it is a shade more dynamic and has better bass slam.
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I wasn't able to measure the voltages Friday, but pretty sure it is just a bad tube. My other tubes work fine.
With the Speedball, the 12BH7 will function in the circuit, but it changes the operating point of the 6080 pretty dramatically.
I'd remove the red LED's on the 9 pin socket and replace them with 1.2K resistors (1/8W is plenty) to bump up the bias a bit, and bring the plate voltage up to ~90V (with the Speedball).
-PB
With this change is the circuit still suitable for 12AU7 tubes?
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I wasn't able to measure the voltages Friday, but pretty sure it is just a bad tube. My other tubes work fine.
With the Speedball, the 12BH7 will function in the circuit, but it changes the operating point of the 6080 pretty dramatically.
I'd remove the red LED's on the 9 pin socket and replace them with 1.2K resistors (1/8W is plenty) to bump up the bias a bit, and bring the plate voltage up to ~90V (with the Speedball).
-PB
With this change is the circuit still suitable for 12AU7 tubes?
Not particularly, no.
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Is it worse than running a 12BH7 without the mod? Or should I really just pick one or the other and stick with it?
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I can't seem to beat the stock tubes.
I got an RCA WA6080 and a some USA made white labelled 5814A, but all white silk screen has been mostly rubbed off.
I've tried:
- Tung-Sol 5998 - Wide soundstage, but insufficient "weight" in the bottom end.
- RCA clear top - Too bright
- CV4003 - completely flat response, no fun at all
I'm pretty happy with my stock input tube. I'm fairly certain its a halo getter GE 1960-61 5814A seen here:
(https://www.tubeworld.com/5814ap1.jpg)
In both cases of the input and driver tube I keep going back to the stock tubes for a sublime listening experience. My original complaint with the RCA 6080WA is that it was too intimate and muddy. The speedball seems to have cleared up the mud - but it remains a hair intimate for my liking. In retrospect I also slightly preferred the stock Crack over the speedball - it seemed slightly more honest.
I'm picky, I know.
Is there a output cap thread? I'm looking to retrieve a little more detail from the crack. I'm on a budget for the next year or so otherwise I would be building a mainline by now. What mods can I make? I'm thinking the component upgrades. What are the best suggestions - or is this a thread on its own?
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Or should I really just pick one or the other and stick with it?
Yes
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Is it worse than running a 12BH7 without the mod? Or should I really just pick one or the other and stick with it?
I've given up trying to figure out the cause of the buzzing sound at start-up. I pair the TS 5998 exclusively with the Amperex 7316, and the Bendix 6080WB with the Philips E80CC. Both combinations sound excellent.
Has anyone tried the Svetlana Winged C 6H13C? These are relatively cheap on ebay, I wonder if they are any good in the Crack.
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Is it worse than running a 12BH7 without the mod? Or should I really just pick one or the other and stick with it?
I've given up trying to figure out the cause of the buzzing sound at start-up. I pair the TS 5998 exclusively with the Amperex 7316, and the Bendix 6080WB with the Philips E80CC. Both combinations sound excellent.
Has anyone tried the Svetlana Winged C 6H13C? These are relatively cheap on ebay, I wonder if they are any good in the Crack.
Dude where did you get the Bendix? I want to them out. I have a couple of TS5998 and paired with a Mullard ECC82, I love the sound. I'll be curious to see if it can get any better with the Bendix
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Is it worse than running a 12BH7 without the mod? Or should I really just pick one or the other and stick with it?
I've given up trying to figure out the cause of the buzzing sound at start-up. I pair the TS 5998 exclusively with the Amperex 7316, and the Bendix 6080WB with the Philips E80CC. Both combinations sound excellent.
Has anyone tried the Svetlana Winged C 6H13C? These are relatively cheap on ebay, I wonder if they are any good in the Crack.
Dude where did you get the Bendix? I want to them out. I have a couple of TS5998 and paired with a Mullard ECC82, I love the sound. I'll be curious to see if it can get any better with the Bendix
I got the Bendix off a seller from the HeadFi forum. Its a really hard tube to find, I'm also looking out for another one as a spare.
The Bendix has better dynamics and bass slam compared to the TS 5998. It also sounds more linear and clean as well. On the other hand, the TS 5998 has a fuller mid range and is airier and more transparent at the top. Much like triode vs ultra-linear modes in an amp. I'm perfectly happy with either one, both are excellent tubes in their own rights.
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What're the voltages at terminals 1, 5, 7, and 9 with the BH7 and 5998?
Okay got voltages. This is with the 1.2K resistor mod. Speedball is installed.
With the BH7 and 6080. No problems.
1 - 108
5 - 105
7 - 130 no change with volume
9 - 125 no change with volume
With the BH7 and 5998. Buzzing at 0 volume.
1 - 105
5 - 105
7 - 114 volume > 0
7- 109 volume = 0
9 - 112 volume > 0
9 - 100 volume = 0
Thanks
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Oh, I don't care what anybody else spends, just me.
I figure if I spent more on accessories that I did on the original item, I would have been better off just buying something better in the first place.
Sorry, to dredge this up but I came across it as a result of a search.
I couldn't disagree more. I believe tweaking existing circuits can bring about sonic improvements that are not otherwise possible with design changes. You can have the best circuit design in the world, but if you use crappy parts, your going to muddy the water and you'll never realize the full potential. It's a cumulative effect. Alternately, one bad part in the signal path can impact the whole circuit.
Good design with good parts is the way to go.
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Oh, I don't care what anybody else spends, just me.
I figure if I spent more on accessories that I did on the original item, I would have been better off just buying something better in the first place.
Sorry, to dredge this up but I came across it as a result of a search.
I couldn't disagree more. I believe tweaking existing circuits can bring about sonic improvements that are not otherwise possible with design changes. You can have the best circuit design in the world, but if you use crappy parts, your going to muddy the water and you'll never realize the full potential. It's a cumulative effect. Alternately, one bad part in the signal path can impact the whole circuit.
Good design with good parts is the way to go.
I'd say the opposite. You can spend $1200 on tweaks to the Quickie, and it won't sound as good as a stock BeePre. You'd be amazed at how many Sterophile class A components use inexpensive parts.
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You'd be amazed at how many Sterophile class A components use inexpensive parts.
Which is why most of us are, likely, here. Every product is built to a price point. Many time parts are substituted that are not necessarily the best design spec, but are in inventory and cheaper because of the quantity purchased. From a manufacturing/inventory control aspect, it is usually not good business to purchase and stock the "perfect" component for each use. But, as a DIY'er, I probably can, to my budget and taste. Big difference!
Cheers,
Geary
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Yeah, on the other end, there are the guys who buy poorly designed single ended amps from overseas, then expect replacing some capacitors to take the performance of such an amplifier well beyond what it could ever be.
Throwing money at boutique parts won't fix a design issue, but a different design will.
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Yeah, on the other end, there are the guys who buy poorly designed single ended amps from overseas, then expect replacing some capacitors to take the performance of such an amplifier well beyond what it could ever be.
Throwing money at boutique parts won't fix a design issue, but a different design will.
Totally agree. A good design can be made to sound better, or perhaps more accurately, to one's taste, with some well chosen quality parts. (Please note that $$$ cost or boutique labels are no guarantee of quality!) Nothing helps a bad design other than starting over with a clean breadboard!
Cheers,
Geary
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Caucasian Blackplate, any thoughts on the voltages you asked for?
http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,663.msg53263.html#msg53263
Thanks
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Caucasian Blackplate, any thoughts on the voltages you asked for?
http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,663.msg53263.html#msg53263
Thanks
I don't see anything in there that would explain any buzzing.
-PB
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Weird, I've been listening to the 5814/6808WA combo very happily for the last couple weeks. Now a couple drinks and relaxed evening - totally called for the RCA clear top. The 5814 sounded completely rolled off to me tonight, but it never has before. The detail in the top end of the RCA is just great.
Is it the Alcohol? :o
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Weird, I've been listening to the 5814/6808WA combo very happily for the last couple weeks. Now a couple drinks and relaxed evening - totally called for the RCA clear top. The 5814 sounded completely rolled off to me tonight, but it never has before. The detail in the top end of the RCA is just great.
Is it the Alcohol? :o
Booze just makes everything look and sound better ;D
The clear tops always sounded piercing to me...even with RCA 6AS7Gs + HD650
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Hey guys,
I am looking to replace my output tube as it appears to be producing humming sound in the background. I am currently running it with Modi from Schiit and HD700. I am wondering what is a good tube. I am looking for something that is warm, more prompt bass and less treble? Thanks!
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Hey guys,
I am looking to replace my output tube as it appears to be producing humming sound in the background. I am currently running it with Modi from Schiit and HD700. I am wondering what is a good tube. I am looking for something that is warm, more prompt bass and less treble? Thanks!
Welcome to the forum!
A while back I bought a quantity of used 6080/6AS7 on E-Bay (untested and cheap). It helps to have a tester but isnt entirely necessary. I had to cull out a couple of duds but in general I wound up with a nice collection to roll through. I found that I always came back to a 6AS7G Chatham from the late 1940's. Good thing too because there were a couple of them in the lot I bought.
Sometimes you can pick up a mixed lot for about the same price as a single new or NOS tube. That way you can do some rolling of your own. You might just find one that is extra special in your system.
Aside from my experiences there are 45 pages of discussion in this thread. I'd recommend, if you haven't done so already, spending a little time reading through them.
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Hey guys,
I am looking to replace my output tube as it appears to be producing humming sound in the background. I am currently running it with Modi from Schiit and HD700. I am wondering what is a good tube. I am looking for something that is warm, more prompt bass and less treble? Thanks!
Something like these perhaps a mix of 6as7g and 6080 keep any you like sell the rest
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lot-of-4-tubes-6AS7G-6AS7GA-6080WA-tested-/281240887187?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item417b435f93
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Hi guys,
Just joining the forum as I have bought a crack with speedball. I am really liking this amp but I am a complete noob when it comes to tubes. I was able to find a Tung-Sol 5998 for the output tube and I have been wondering whether I could use a few spare 6CG7 or 6922 in the input socket that I have left from my speaker amp.
Thanks!
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6922 and 6cg7 are not direct replacements of the 12au7 tube. I would not try them in the Crack.
The 5998 is an excellent tube, many people here rave about it.
Best wishes
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Look at the first post. The drop in equivalent list has been gone over well and should be correct.
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Yeah, on the other end, there are the guys who buy poorly designed single ended amps from overseas, then expect replacing some capacitors to take the performance of such an amplifier well beyond what it could ever be.
Throwing money at boutique parts won't fix a design issue, but a different design will.
True. But that wasn't what I was saying. I'm saying that well designed circuits are frequently subject to oversight. Obviously, I'm not saying BH products are subject to this. What I have had pointed out to me is a lot of 'high-end' designs with simple mistakes with component selection and implementation. By implementation I don't necessarily mean the overall circuit, I just mean simple things - like placement. When those oversights are fixed a old piece of equipment can gain new life it would have never previously expected.
But yea, boutique parts as a solution on its own? No. That isn't going to work. Also, 'Boutique' parts become such because of recognition. At one point they were all just good selections with a par cost. I think the internet as exacerbated this. It's a growing problem...
Anyhow.. back to tubes.... :)
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Can anybody shed some light on a "A2599" tube it was in with some 12au7 that I had for rolling its 9 pin and the same general size/shape as 12au7. Might it work in the Crack with out causing any damage?
TIA Jamie
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It looks like an obscure single RF triode, though there's not much data available for it.
It would not work in the Crack.
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Hi guys,
I am pairing my Crack+Speedball with HD700 (with Schiit Modi), I am looking for a power tube that is warm, provides good bass, recessed treble, good sound stage and detailed. People have suggested me Bendix 6080, Tung-Sol 6080WA, and Western Electric 421A.. well, the first two I cannot find anywhere, and the last one is wayyy out of my budget. I am looking for something that is under, say, $50, that will do the job. Any idea will help, thanks! :D
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Thanks Paul
Hi guys,
I am pairing my Crack+Speedball with HD700 (with Schiit Modi), I am looking for a power tube that is warm, provides good bass, recessed treble, good sound stage and detailed. People have suggested me Bendix 6080, Tung-Sol 6080WA, and Western Electric 421A.. well, the first two I cannot find anywhere, and the last one is wayyy out of my budget. I am looking for something that is under, say, $50, that will do the job. Any idea will help, thanks! :D
Chatham 6AS7G sounds nice and should tick all your box's
Also 6AS7G from RCA or Sylvania the earlier 1950-60's ones.
The Mullard 6080 is also a nice sounding tube but harder to find.
It would also be worth considering the Tung-sol 5998 if you can stretch a little further these can be found nos from dealers for $75 and for $50-60 nos or as tested strong on ebay and would be are a great choice if you can stretch for the extra.
Good hunting
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Thanks Paul
Hi guys,
I am pairing my Crack+Speedball with HD700 (with Schiit Modi), I am looking for a power tube that is warm, provides good bass, recessed treble, good sound stage and detailed. People have suggested me Bendix 6080, Tung-Sol 6080WA, and Western Electric 421A.. well, the first two I cannot find anywhere, and the last one is wayyy out of my budget. I am looking for something that is under, say, $50, that will do the job. Any idea will help, thanks! :D
Chatham 6AS7G sounds nice and should tick all your box's
Also 6AS7G from RCA or Sylvania the earlier 1950-60's ones.
The Mullard 6080 is also a nice sounding tube but harder to find.
It would also be worth considering the Tung-sol 5998 if you can stretch a little further these can be found nos from dealers for $75 and for $50-60 nos or as tested strong on ebay and would be are a great choice if you can stretch for the extra.
Good hunting
Mhm thanks for the response!
But I can't find the Tung-sol 5998 anywhere for that price... :(
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SNSDluv,
Looks like you didn't read thru the topic... C'mon, do your homework... It's only 46 pages.
Just kidding ;)
Tung-sol 5998 is quite rare tube now days, especially if you are looking for NOS, but you can find equivalent of that tube which is Chatham 2399. Just click the link: http://www.vacuumtubes.net/RES%20Audio%20pages/5998.html. $85+S&H.
Got one from them and IMO it will definitely meet your expectations.
Kris
P.S. to admin: I hope I didn't break the forum rules by pasting link to tube vendor's website. If I did, please feel free to delete the post.
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Mhm thanks for the response!
But I can't find the Tung-sol 5998 anywhere for that price... :(
Good things come to those who wait! Be patient and keep checking they do come up reasonably regularly. I brought two NOS 5998's for $96 the pair delivered last month. The ebay seller must have listed at least 20 NOS 5998's over a week, they were going like hot cakes.
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I got some RCA 6AS7Gs and other tubes yesterday. I wasn't home when the Fedex truck came, and it has been really cold here. Does leaving them out in the Minnesota cold for several hours mean they are now cryo-ed? (just kidding) The RCAs are very nice, but I also got some JJ ecc802s (copies of the telefunkin ecc802s) these too are fantastic.
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SNSDluv,
Looks like you didn't read thru the topic... C'mon, do your homework... It's only 46 pages.
Just kidding ;)
Tung-sol 5998 is quite rare tube now days, especially if you are looking for NOS, but you can find equivalent of that tube which is Chatham 2399. Just click the link: http://www.vacuumtubes.net/RES%20Audio%20pages/5998.html. $85+S&H.
Got one from them and IMO it will definitely meet your expectations.
Kris
P.S. to admin: I hope I didn't break the forum rules by pasting link to tube vendor's website. If I did, please feel free to delete the post.
Haha, I am really really new to this tube rolling is reading the forum through are just more confusing... Especially with all the different getters, different position of the getters, different plates, different columns, different COLOR of the label, different... :( you get the idea.. :( $85 is quite high for me, any other suggestions that will fit my description?
Mhm thanks for the response!
But I can't find the Tung-sol 5998 anywhere for that price... :(
Good things come to those who wait! Be patient and keep checking they do come up reasonably regularly. I brought two NOS 5998's for $96 the pair delivered last month. The ebay seller must have listed at least 20 NOS 5998's over a week, they were going like hot cakes.
Is it possible for you to send me some of the sites, besides eBay of course, that I should check regularly so that I can hunt them down? :P
Again, thanks for the help you guys! Really appreciated.
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Also, I have a question about Tung-Sol 6080WA, is there is huge difference between Westinghouse branded and not? What about Chatham 6080WA?
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Also, I have a question about Tung-Sol 6080WA, is there is huge difference between Westinghouse branded and not? What about Chatham 6080WA?
There's a very, very, very good chance that you could buy one of each of these tubes and discover that they were all made by Tung-Sol. IIRC, Westinghouse would've bought these from someone else and had them rebranded.
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Anyone know if this one is a good MWT A1834 tube? :O It is black based not brown based, does it make a huge difference?.. :/
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I want to buy a 6SN7 to 12AU7 adapter & there are 2 options available : 6.3 V & 12.6 V . Which one do I choose ?
Thanks
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6.3V
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Just wanted to drop in and share some experience. I recently was able to get my hands on a ts 5998 at a reasonable price, and paired with the Mullard ECC82, the crack boasts a wonderful signature for my t1s - the highs are pulled back into equilibrium, the bass is much more present, but still tight, and the mids balance detail and warmth wonderfully. These tubes really allowed me to hone in on the sound I wanted for my t1s, and I would highly recommend some rolling to anyone interested in tweaking their amp/phones synergy. Just my 2 cents!
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The 5998 is one of my favorites for sure. In fact I haven't tried many tubes that I though sounded very bad. But the 5998 is just insanely good IMO.
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The 5998 is also my daily drive paired with a Mullard ECC82 or Siemens E80cc.
I am eagerly looking forward to trying the 5998 with a Mullard CV4003 box plate later in the week.
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The 5998 is also my daily drive paired with a Mullard ECC82 or Siemens E80cc.
I am eagerly looking forward to trying the 5998 with a Mullard CV4003 box plate later in the week.
Jamie, is your Siemens E80CC with rhodium or gold pins? I'm curious to know what the difference is between the 2 variety. The gold pins look similar to the Philips E80CC while the rhodium pins hahve smooth plates.
Anyone have experience with both?
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This is my E80cc
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.ebayimg.com%2Ft%2FSIEMENS-E80CC-Alt-Vacuum-Doppel-Triode-Rohr-Universal-Guter-Test-%2F00%2Fs%2FMTIwMFgxNjAw%2Fz%2FNNYAAOxygPtS0Y6o%2F%24_58.JPG&hash=555f4abd5272c4a7ecde7a094c44cd55ecd64ee5)
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Jamie, your Siemens look very similar to a Tungsram E80CC - smooth plates with 2 holes on the sides. That is a really nice tube, very dynamic and revealing.
On the other hand, the gold pins Siemens E80CC looks just like a Philips E80CC - ladder plates with no holes on the sides.
Can anyone verify this?
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Thanks for the interesting tube info "dynamic and revealing" sits well with my own impressions of the tube. It makes for a nice match listening with the Beyer T1's listening to simple music like Eva Cassidy, vocal + acoustic guitar it is simply beguiling. Revealing lots of little nuances of texture in her vocals and guitar. Its seriously good and very addictive.
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I enjoy the E80CC with not-so-simple British alternative rock music - Radiohead, Kasabian, Franz Ferdinand... Very very enjoyable cos it conveys the energy and essence of the music :)
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Thanks for the interesting tube info "dynamic and revealing" sits well with my own impressions of the tube. It makes for a nice match listening with the Beyer T1's listening to simple music like Eva Cassidy, vocal + acoustic guitar it is simply beguiling. Revealing lots of little nuances of texture in her vocals and guitar. Its seriously good and very addictive.
Jamie, It's rare that I ever hear anyone mention Eva Cassidy. "Live at Blues Alley" is probably my all time favorite album. So sad that such a remarkable talent passed away at such a young age. She sounds great on my Crack with 5998 and a Ken Rad 5814 ( 1948).
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Thanks for the interesting tube info "dynamic and revealing" sits well with my own impressions of the tube. It makes for a nice match listening with the Beyer T1's listening to simple music like Eva Cassidy, vocal + acoustic guitar it is simply beguiling. Revealing lots of little nuances of texture in her vocals and guitar. Its seriously good and very addictive.
Jamie, It's rare that I ever hear anyone mention Eva Cassidy. "Live at Blues Alley" is probably my all time favorite album. So sad that such a remarkable talent passed away at such a young age. She sounds great on my Crack with 5998 and a Ken Rad 5814 ( 1948).
Eva Cassidy is a super rare talent indeed.. "Live at Blues Alley" is an excellent album, very well recorded too.
I have to agree that the Crack with TS 5998 is perfect for this type of music.
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The original (complete) post :
http://the-key.enix.org/~krystal/review-tube-bottlehead.html
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The original (complete) post :
http://the-key.enix.org/~krystal/review-tube-bottlehead.html
Hopefully the incomplete posts will get sorted out later in the week I have noticed a few. Thanks for the link.
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Managed to get a great deal on a Mullard CV4003 it is certainly a very nice sounding tube and pairs very well with both the 5998 and GEC 6as7g, I am very much torn between it and the E80cc for the number one spot.
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Jamie, what is the main difference in sound signature between the CV4003 and the E80CC? Does the CV4003 add a bit more bass quantity and is warmer?
I've been deliberating on purchasing a CV4003 for some time now. I'm torn between the 5998 and the Bendix 6080WB. The 5998 has incredible mids and highs, but the lows are a bit weak and lacks quantity for my taste. The Bendix on the other hand has incredible drive at the low end but does not have the magical mids-highs of the 5998.
I've paired many input tubes with the 5998 to squeeze more low end out of it, but so far nothing has worked. Have tried Amperex 7316, Siemens 12AU7 chrome plates, Philips E80CC, Tungsram E80CC, Sylvania 12BH7.
Mullard remains the only popular input tube I've not tried. I do not like warm, wooly, bloated sound and prefer clarity and transparency. Hopefully the Mullard is not too rolled off in the highs.
I also read about a long plate Mullard 12AU7. Anyone with experience comparing it to the CV4003?
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Siemens E80CC and Mullard 4003 differences ohh that’s rather hard especially as I find them they both very similar sounding and the differences are subtle but I will give it a go.
E80CC is slightly more edgy with a wider sound stage, slightly better top end extension feels more open, the edge on resolution & dynamics and a tighter bass.
Mullard 4003 is slightly darker but has a better way of conveying the textures in timbres and tone making for rich mids and vocals that can be mesmerizing with the right sort of music it also does a better job at creating ambience.
I look at what I have written and find it is somewhat odd and contradictory to say one has better resolution but that resolution doesn't convey the same detail in tones and timbre.
They are both great sounding tubes and I doubt I would be able to blind test between them.
I have been very fortunate in the tube department of late as I picked up Tung-sol 12au7 black glass for $1.50 from a guitar shop who just had it listed as a 12au7 and it is another super sounding tube, very similar to a 1950's Tung-sol JTL in the top end but is richer sounding and like the E80cc and 4003 really nice vocals.
I would say all three tubes are very much on a par with one another though each has its own unique style of presentation.
(https://www.head-fi.org/image/id/5748644/width/900/height/900/flags/LL)
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Thanks for sharing your impression, Jamie. I think I'll get myself a Mullard 4003 to try out. I've also just ordered a CBS Hytron 5814A yesterday after reading some favourable reviews about it.
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For the potentiometer, which should i get to replace my stock pot, linear or logarithmic?
I noticed some pots do not have those holes to place my wire in to solder, can I still use those?
And for the tubes, as long as it is a 6080 power tube and 12au7 input tube, any variants of those tubes are ok to use in the amp?
Thanks
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Log, or audio taper. Linear will drive you nuts and won't work well at all.
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As for the tubes, plenty of reading here: http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,663.0.html (http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,663.0.html)
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Hi all.
Can I do a direct substitute (No modifications) of the 12AU7 of my Crack
with the following tubes:
12AT7, 12AX7 and 6922.
(I have some spares of those)
Guy 13
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No.
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No, as our our overly verbose MikeB stated above. ;D
Look here:
http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,4295.msg39600.html#msg39600 (http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,4295.msg39600.html#msg39600)
Then here:
http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,663.0.html
Cheers,
Geary
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No, as our our overly verbose MikeB stated above. ;D
Look here:
http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,4295.msg39600.html#msg39600 (http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,4295.msg39600.html#msg39600)
Then here:
http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,663.0.html
Cheers,
Geary
Hi Geary.
Thanks for the links.
I saw before the second one, but was still wondering about what would happen,
then the first link answered my question.
Guy 13
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No.
Hi Mike B
Thanks for your NO.
With an answer like that,
you will be in the Guinness world record book under the topic
of the shortest answer ever posted on the Bottlehead forum.
;D
Thanks again.
Guy 13
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Angelo, so you like the E80CC as a driver in the Crack, what brand do you have? A friend offered a couple of phillips mini-watts, maybe I should take him up on that.
Cheers,
Shawn
It's an Amperex tube, made in Holland, per the label. It also says "premium quality" and has gold-plated pins.
I recently swapped in a 1950's Sylvania 12BH7, a 2009 Electro-Harmonix 12BH7, a 1960's 5963, and a 1960's RCA clear-top 12AU7 to see if what I am hearing is just my imagination. It's not. The E80CC has, by far, the deepest bass, biggest soundstage, and most extended treble of all. Not a bad investment!
I recently purchased very similar pair of Amperex ..hopefully it works
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Hi! Looking for both tubes for my Crack. I use Sennheiser HD700 headphones and Schiit Modi dac. I want something warmer and I dont have a fortune to spend on tubes, so something around 70$ for both tubes. I read somewhere (maybe this thread here) that 6AS7G/6AS7GA are superior to 6080, is that correct?
Because I live in Europe it would be nice to get them from europe. I searched in ebay and found:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6AS7GA-GE-6080-NOS-VALVE-TUBE-1-PC-/370622241591?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Valves_Vacuum_Tubes&hash=item564ace9b37
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RCA-6AS7G-Tube-two-tubes-/121303602008?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Valves_Vacuum_Tubes&hash=item1c3e421358
http://www.ebay.de/itm/6AS7GA-6080-Sylvania-OO-Getter-Black-Plates-NOS-NIB-3752-/221095820243?pt=DE_TV_Video_Audio_Elektronenr%C3%B6hren_Valves&hash=item337a567bd3
Is there any difference between 6AS7G and 6AS7GA besides the shape of the glass?
What brand 12AU7 to look for?
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$70 is kind of a fortune to spend on that particular pair of tubes if you stay with used tubes.
The 6AS7GA and 6AS7G are nearly identical to a 6080.
I'd spend money on a nice 12AU7 and not worry about the 6080.
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$70 is kind of a fortune to spend on that particular pair of tubes if you stay with used tubes.
The 6AS7GA and 6AS7G are nearly identical to a 6080.
I'd spend money on a nice 12AU7 and not worry about the 6080.
Mullard CV4003 (12AU7?) would be ok? ~80$ from UK
That GE 6AS7GA would be a bad choice?
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Mullard CV4003 (12AU7?) would be ok? ~80$ from UK
That GE 6AS7GA would be a bad choice?
The cv4003 is nice and often can be found for a lot less I regularly see them go for around $30 here in the UK.
The Chatham 6AS7G is a nice sounding tube for the money $19 below, I prefer it to my rca ones that's for sure.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Chatham-6AS7G-JAN-Black-Plates-Test-Strong-/251488832521?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item3a8de70c09
http://www.vacuumtubes.net/ have a couple of hundred nos 5998's at $85 each while stocks last
You should be able to find a nice 1950's Tung-sol 12au7 jtl for around $15 one of the best sounding input tubes I have used in my Crack its very similar sounding to the Tung-sol 12u7 Black glass which goes for a lot more. They are both nearly on par with the Mullard CV4003, just a touch brighter/leaner imo. Either would make a really first class input tube.
Just be patient they turn up quiet regularly.
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Mullard CV4003 (12AU7?) would be ok? ~80$ from UK
That GE 6AS7GA would be a bad choice?
The cv4003 is nice and often can be found for a lot less I regularly see them go for around $30 here in the UK.
The Chatham 6AS7G is a nice sounding tube for the money $19 below, I prefer it to my rca ones that's for sure.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Chatham-6AS7G-JAN-Black-Plates-Test-Strong-/251488832521?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item3a8de70c09
http://www.vacuumtubes.net/ have a couple of hundred nos 5998's at $85 each while stocks last
You should be able to find a nice 1950's Tung-sol 12au7 jtl for around $15 one of the best sounding input tubes I have used in my Crack its very similar sounding to the Tung-sol 12u7 Black glass which goes for a lot more. They are both nearly on par with the Mullard CV4003, just a touch brighter/leaner imo. Either would make a really first class input tube.
Just be patient they turn up quiet regularly.
That Chatham 6as7g seems good. Great price (no customs..)...I will wait till next week and then see what there is to buy. I bookmarked that Chatham tube. That crack in the base is no big thing?
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Nothing a little super glue can't handle!
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Nothing a little super glue can't handle!
I have 50ml of that, so no prob! :D
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Anyone uses Brimar 12AU7 or Brimar CV4003 or maybe a Brimar 13D5 (supposed to be direct replacement for 12au7) with their Crack? Wondering how they sound, because they are better priced than a Mullard 12AU7/CV4003.
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I have one 13D5 and when I came back from work today I found two NOS 13D4s was waiting ,listening to 13D4 as I type,..long story short 13D4 supposed to be predecessor of 13D5
Appears that 13D4 preceded 13D5. These have the old style STC logos with BVA stamp. Etched tube type 1571 - one of the 12AU7 codes that was also used for Brimar ECC82
types like CV4003, 12AU7, CV4034 etc. From what we know, Brimar made 3 industrial ECC82 types, 13D4, 13D5 and later 13D8.
13D5 sounds really good ..solid soundstage ,airy and sweet mids,clear top
This tubes are really interesting since micas are see-through ,the samples I received are super quite ,you won't hear a thing by tapping on the tube
http://www.ebay.com/itm/160808127350?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649
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Which one is a better deal for the money?
1. http://www.ebay.nl/itm/Vintage-JHY-CBS-5814-A-D-Getter-Black-Plate-Stereo-Tube-1959-V-Strong-Bal-341-/400679067882?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item5d4a5560ea&_uhb=1
2. http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-new-Tube-Brimar-UK-made-ECC82-12AU7-402067-/380857748925?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item58ace40dbd
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Does anyone know where can I get the Bendix 6080wb tube? Seems to be pretty rare nowadays, I was always curious to how it'll sound with some Mullards ECC82
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@klots
this will probably be your best bet for the money
http://www.ebay.nl/itm/THE-ULTIMATE-NOS-Tesla-ECC802S-12au7-ECC82-tube-Ships-from-US-/171253161671?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item27df7bdec7&_uhb=1
Does anyone know where can I get the Bendix 6080wb tube? Seems to be pretty rare nowadays, I was always curious to how it'll sound with some Mullards ECC82
Bendix were easy to get few years ago but as of late you might end up waiting for months to find one on ebay and most likely you will have to pay around $150 here in US to get one (I recently purchased one ) ,this tube don't like Crack much ,I have try all types of driver tube to pair it with on Crack and it still doesn't sound right ,this is night and day when running on my DV366SE (just epic)
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@xcoolhandx
I should try it out then :) If that tube gives me nice soundstage, great mids and is musical and not trebleheavy, then I should be happy.
How does that compare to Tesla http://www.ebay.com/itm/E82CC-ECC802s-Siemens-100-electrical-new-4837-/221213056403?pt=DE_TV_Video_Audio_Elektronenr%C3%B6hren_Valves&hash=item3381535d93 ?
And there is that JJ ecc802S which also gets great reviews. It is not easy to choose as I thought it would be :D
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Which one is a better deal for the money?
1. http://www.ebay.nl/itm/Vintage-JHY-CBS-5814-A-D-Getter-Black-Plate-Stereo-Tube-1959-V-Strong-Bal-341-/400679067882?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item5d4a5560ea&_uhb=1
2. http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-new-Tube-Brimar-UK-made-ECC82-12AU7-402067-/380857748925?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item58ace40dbd
The CBS Hytron 5814 is a glorious tube. Very detailed and transparent, yet it has a nice warmth. The bass has a lot of drive (slam).
This is my input tube of choice to pair with the TS 5998. I was using an Amperex 7316 before, and I slightly prefer the CBS Hytron 5814 because it has better dynamics in the bass.
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Which one is a better deal for the money?
1. http://www.ebay.nl/itm/Vintage-JHY-CBS-5814-A-D-Getter-Black-Plate-Stereo-Tube-1959-V-Strong-Bal-341-/400679067882?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item5d4a5560ea&_uhb=1
2. http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-new-Tube-Brimar-UK-made-ECC82-12AU7-402067-/380857748925?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item58ace40dbd
The CBS Hytron 5814 is a glorious tube. Very detailed and transparent, yet it has a nice warmth. The bass has a lot of drive (slam).
This is my input tube of choice to pair with the TS 5998. I was using an Amperex 7316 before, and I slightly prefer the CBS Hytron 5814 because it has better dynamics in the bass.
I have the rca 6080wa and ge 6as7ga output tubes. I dont know about the pairing between rca/ge and 5814a, but I have read many positive comments about 5814a. Because I use HD700 headphones I do not want a drive tube with lots of treble. Drive tube witch is detailed and musical with nice mids and not sluggish bass would be perfect.
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I have this Siemens
http://www.partsconnexion.com/NOS-76087.html
and the JJ ecc802s
both are very nice, different from each other, but either of these two are my faves in my system.
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Iv recently tried genalex gold lion ecc82(new reproduction) with a tung sol 5998 best combo iv so far :D Very detailed neutral sound very happy with the combo
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Iv recently tried genalex gold lion ecc82(new reproduction) with a tung sol 5998 best combo iv so far :D Very detailed neutral sound very happy with the combo
Which cans are you using them with?
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Iv recently tried genalex gold lion ecc82(new reproduction) with a tung sol 5998 best combo iv so far :D Very detailed neutral sound very happy with the combo
Which cans are you using them with?
880dt (250ohm)
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Anyone tried E182CC,will it work ??
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The photos have been lost, but it was done here:
http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,2587.msg21017.html#msg21017 (http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,2587.msg21017.html#msg21017)
The C4S current had to be increased, and the LED's biasing the cathodes were switched to blue LED's for more bias voltage.
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Thank you Caucasian
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@klots
this will probably be your best bet for the money
http://www.ebay.nl/itm/THE-ULTIMATE-NOS-Tesla-ECC802S-12au7-ECC82-tube-Ships-from-US-/171253161671?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item27df7bdec7&_uhb=1
Does anyone know where can I get the Bendix 6080wb tube? Seems to be pretty rare nowadays, I was always curious to how it'll sound with some Mullards ECC82
Bendix were easy to get few years ago but as of late you might end up waiting for months to find one on ebay and most likely you will have to pay around $150 here in US to get one (I recently purchased one ) ,this tube don't like Crack much ,I have try all types of driver tube to pair it with on Crack and it still doesn't sound right ,this is night and day when running on my DV366SE (just epic)
I got those Bendix for $80 from Turkey..Its not a Bargain, but I'm going to try these with my HD650. If it's not to my taste, I can always sell it
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My postman dropped off a little brown package this morning inside a Tung-sol/Bendix 6080wb :) I had been curious to try a graphite tube for a while now.
Based only on couple of hours so far its almost like a cross between a 5998 and the Mullard 6080wa. It has a big, bold, fast sound which is punchy and dynamic.
Its darker weightier and more tubey sounding than a 5998 while keeping some of its refinement but not quiet with the same levels of resolution and finesse as the 5998. There is more slam and punch to the bass!
Sound stage reminds me of the Mullard its got that detached holographic surreal-ness to it with lots of air and separation. Its certainly stands out as being different to the tubes I have tried so far.
(https://www.head-fi.org/content/type/61/id/1082569/width/350/height/700/flags/LL)
(https://www.head-fi.org/content/type/61/id/1082570/width/350/height/700/flags/LL)
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Jamie, your observations on the Bendix 6080WB are similar to mine. I'm constantly torn between the 6080WB and the 5998... for certain music such as rock and electronic music, the 6080WB is clearly superior with its more dynamic sound and punchy bass. With Jazz and vocals, the 5998 trumps it convincingly.
My favourite 2 combinations (using a Beyer T90):
1. TS 5998 + CBS Hytron 5814A for jazz, vocals, acoustic music
2. Bendix 6080WB + Philips E80CC for rock, electronic music.
I am curious to try the Genalex 6AS7G, but the price is prohibitive. How would you describe the Genalex relative to the TS5998 and the Bendix 6080WB?
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^^^ try to pair it with 6SN7 guys
EDIT ;some power tubes prefer larger driver tubes ;
GEC A1834-6AS7G+ 6SN7=win
GEC A1834-6AS7G+12AU7=not that great
5998+6SN7 =not that great
Bendix red bank +6SN7 =win
Bendix+12AU7/E80CC=suck
TS 7236+12AU7=win
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Jamie, your observations on the Bendix 6080WB are similar to mine. I'm constantly torn between the 6080WB and the 5998... for certain music such as rock and electronic music, the 6080WB is clearly superior with its more dynamic sound and punchy bass. With Jazz and vocals, the 5998 trumps it convincingly.
My favourite 2 combinations (using a Beyer T90):
1. TS 5998 + CBS Hytron 5814A for jazz, vocals, acoustic music
2. Bendix 6080WB + Philips E80CC for rock, electronic music.
I am curious to try the Genalex 6AS7G, but the price is prohibitive. How would you describe the Genalex relative to the TS5998 and the Bendix 6080WB?
The Glenalex I had to look it up and found its another name for the CEC/OSRAM/MOV tube A1834 CV2523.
If I could keep only one tube it would be Genalex/GEC
Nick Tam did a ranking of the 6as7g's the full piece from the old site is linked below
This is what he has to say on the GEC
"The "Super Tube", the "Holy Grail" of all 6AS7Gs. The GEC 6AS7G is very balanced in each aspect, good micro detailing and extremely analytical. The soundstage is very spacious, and has lots of air. Layering is very good and is probably the best of all British tubes. The differences between the curved and straight base are near indiscernible, so there’s no need to extra big bucks for the curved brown base in particular."
----------------------------------------
The micro detailing is the thing I find most appealing the layering and clarity or the resolution reveals subtle nuances in tone and texture that I find beguiling. The cravat is you need to be in the zone free from distractions and singly focus on the music. With that in mind it only gets plugged in for such occasions rather than general listening. Such occasions often also include a large scotch.
If I am working on the pc then really any of the 6080's I find enjoyable for background listening. The 5998 is close but just not quiet in the same league and I prefer it for general leisure listening. I would say if your using HD650's then stick with the 5998 as the GEC''s finer qualities are rather lost on my HD650's they are just are not resolving enough. Plug in the T1's and its different story.
link
http://the-key.enix.org/~krystal/review-tube-bottlehead.html
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Jamie, your observations on the Bendix 6080WB are similar to mine. I'm constantly torn between the 6080WB and the 5998... for certain music such as rock and electronic music, the 6080WB is clearly superior with its more dynamic sound and punchy bass. With Jazz and vocals, the 5998 trumps it convincingly.
My favourite 2 combinations (using a Beyer T90):
1. TS 5998 + CBS Hytron 5814A for jazz, vocals, acoustic music
2. Bendix 6080WB + Philips E80CC for rock, electronic music.
I am curious to try the Genalex 6AS7G, but the price is prohibitive. How would you describe the Genalex relative to the TS5998 and the Bendix 6080WB?
The Glenalex I had to look it up and found its another name for the CEC/OSRAM/MOV tube A1834 CV2523.
If I could keep only one tube it would be Genalex/GEC
Nick Tam did a ranking of the 6as7g's the full piece from the old site is linked below
This is what he has to say on the GEC
"The "Super Tube", the "Holy Grail" of all 6AS7Gs. The GEC 6AS7G is very balanced in each aspect, good micro detailing and extremely analytical. The soundstage is very spacious, and has lots of air. Layering is very good and is probably the best of all British tubes. The differences between the curved and straight base are near indiscernible, so there’s no need to extra big bucks for the curved brown base in particular."
----------------------------------------
The micro detailing is the thing I find most appealing the layering and clarity or the resolution reveals subtle nuances in tone and texture that I find beguiling. The cravat is you need to be in the zone free from distractions and singly focus on the music. With that in mind it only gets plugged in for such occasions rather than general listening. Such occasions often also include a large scotch.
If I am working on the pc then really any of the 6080's I find enjoyable for background listening. The 5998 is close but just not quiet in the same league and I prefer it for general leisure listening. I would say if your using HD650's then stick with the 5998 as the GEC''s finer qualities are rather lost on my HD650's they are just are not resolving enough. Plug in the T1's and its different story.
link
http://the-key.enix.org/~krystal/review-tube-bottlehead.html
Thanks for your impression, Jamie. I meant to say GEC 6AS7G in my previous post, but somehow mixed it up by saying Genalex.
What do you pair the GEC with? I'm very tempted now after hearing your good impressions, and even more so when you are using a Beyer like me (though your T1 is clearly better than the T90 I have).
Btw, a nice dose of the old single malt scotch never fails to increase the enjoyment factor for me :)
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The differences between the curved and straight base are near indiscernible
..this could be true if you comparing same brand,year ,etc ,I have both and I would say that the Haltron GEC/MOV/Hammersmith/ A1834/6AS7G which is the real "..grail"sounds better that the tube you referring to,just my 2C
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^^^ try to pair it with 6SN7 guys
EDIT ;some power tubes prefer larger driver tubes ;
GEC A1834-6AS7G+ 6SN7=win
GEC A1834-6AS7G+12AU7=not that great
5998+6SN7 =not that great
Bendix red bank +6SN7 =win
Bendix+12AU7/E80CC=suck
TS 7236+12AU7=win
Which 6SN7 tube did you pair with the Bendix? I've tried a Sylvania VT231 with the TS 5998 and was underwhelmed by it.
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I have narrowed my input tubes down to only four now
Siemens/Tungsram E80cc
Mullard cv4003 (box plate)
Tung Sol 12au7 Black Glass
Tung Sol 12au7 JTL
I find they work well so have just stuck with them.
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^^^ try to pair it with 6SN7 guys
EDIT ;some power tubes prefer larger driver tubes ;
GEC A1834-6AS7G+ 6SN7=win
GEC A1834-6AS7G+12AU7=not that great
5998+6SN7 =not that great
Bendix red bank +6SN7 =win
Bendix+12AU7/E80CC=suck
TS 7236+12AU7=win
Which 6SN7 tube did you pair with the Bendix? I've tried a Sylvania VT231 with the TS 5998 and was underwhelmed by it.
best two -which will bring out the sparkle ,detail ,voice and make it very balanced are
RCA JAN 6SN7-GT/VT-231 U.S. NAVY
smoke glass 1940s
TS CTL 6SN7GT Black glass U.S. NAVY 1942
P.S. here is a wealth of information ,characteristics and great read on tubes in general
http://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/search/label/6SN7
EDIT; here is a cheapo that also works well
http://www.ebay.com/itm/321355025737?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649
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What are your favourite 6sn7 tubes?? Anyone has used some Kenrad (vt231) black glass tubes?
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Try Raytheon VT-231, it's my favorite 6SN7 tube...just my 2 cents :)
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Well, I admit I was wrong about tube rolling.
Up until yesterday I've only had 4 tubes for my Crack; Ratheon 6080, Sino 6AS7G, Electro Harmonix 12AU7, and JJ 12AU7.
I had tried the 4 combinations I could do with these tubes, all of which sounded relatively similar, so I kind of ruled tube rolling as being audiophile BS and wishful thinking.
On a whim I looked into RCA clear top 12AU7s and found a good deal for a strong tube for only $10. I figured why not try it? This is the tube that always seems to be described as an affordable jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none.
I have to say this tube fixed some issues that I had noticed that I didn't realize were being caused by (or at least emphasized by) the new production 12AU7s I had. The RCA tube smoothed out this weird distortion I was hearing in the upper mids or lower treble that sounded like static or a glassy grating sound. The RCA also sort of bumped and rounded the bass a bit. Enjoying my Beyer DT880s even more now.
I wouldn't say the sound has drastically changed like you read on other forums where people go on a long tangent peppered with pretty words about how the sound could save the lives of starving children in Africa, it's not that drastic of a change, but its enough be noticeable and improve the listening experience and I'm all about that.
Pretty cool! ;)
Just thought I'd share the moment I had my tube epiphany.
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Well, I admit I was wrong about tube rolling.
Up until yesterday I've only had 4 tubes for my Crack; Ratheon 6080, Sino 6AS7G, Electro Harmonix 12AU7, and JJ 12AU7.
I had tried the 4 combinations I could do with these tubes, all of which sounded relatively similar, so I kind of ruled tube rolling as being audiophile BS and wishful thinking.
On a whim I looked into RCA clear top 12AU7s and found a good deal for a strong tube for only $10. I figured why not try it? This is the tube that always seems to be described as an affordable jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none.
I have to say this tube fixed some issues that I had noticed that I didn't realize were being caused by (or at least emphasized by) the new production 12AU7s I had. The RCA tube smoothed out this weird distortion I was hearing in the upper mids or lower treble that sounded like static or a glassy grating sound. The RCA also sort of bumped and rounded the bass a bit. Enjoying my Beyer DT880s even more now.
I wouldn't say the sound has drastically changed like you read on other forums where people go on a long tangent peppered with pretty words about how the sound could save the lives of starving children in Africa, it's not drastic of a change, but its enough be noticeable and improve the listening experience and I'm all about that.
Pretty cool! ;)
Just thought I'd share the moment I had my tube epiphany.
Why not try the RCA 6AS7G too? It can be bought for around $20, and to me its darn good. Apparetly combined with the clear tops, its a great sounding combination..
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I wouldn't say the sound has drastically changed like you read on other forums where people go on a long tangent peppered with pretty words about how the sound could save the lives of starving children in Africa, it's not that drastic of a change, but its enough be noticeable and improve the listening experience and I'm all about that.
Post of the week!
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Why not try the RCA 6AS7G too? It can be bought for around $20, and to me its darn good. Apparetly combined with the clear tops, its a great sounding combination..
Oh, believe me, I've unleashed a monster with this epiphany and have like 8 tubes headed my way in the mail. RCA 6AS7G is on my short list.
Any input on grey plate vs black plate regarding the RCA 6AS7G?
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I will admit to wrongly righting of the RCA 6as7g early on in with my experiments with rolling. In retrospect I don't think I could have paired it very well at the time. When I tried it the other day I was presently surprise my memory was of a rather flat and recessed sound and that was not what I was hearing this time round.
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Just had a Svetlana "flying C" arrive in the mail today. Can't say I notice too much difference between any of my 3 power tubes. Seems the gain/driver tube is the one responsible for most of the flavor between tubes, yes?
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Just had a Svetlana "flying C" arrive in the mail today. Can't say I notice too much difference between any of my 3 power tubes. Seems the gain/driver tube is the one responsible for most of the flavor between tubes, yes?
I've tried the Svetlana winged-C, and I was not too impressed by it. Sounds average, and a bit flat and un-involving... but that's comparing it to the Tungsol 5998. The 5998 does bring a big step up in performance, more so than the various input tubes I've tried. Unfortunately the cost has gone insane recently.
My favorite input tube now is the CBS Hytron 5814A.
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For all (newb, like me) reader, something have to be said ; the stock choice I've got on my crack were *very* good.
I've tryed to roll both input and output tube, with popular (in forum) but reasonnably priced alternative (10-40$ each, ~200$ total), and right now my preferred setup is still what got shipped with my crack (especially for the input tube, which I'm not sure be seems to be a RCA 12AU7 blackplate).
I'm not saying the listening can't be improved, but I think you should see that as a way to tune your crack to the sound you prefer, not as an absolute upgrade, as you *may* prefer the "stock" sound after spending money :)
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I'm not saying the listening can't be improved, but I think you should see that as a way to tune your crack to the sound you prefer, not as an absolute upgrade, as you *may* prefer the "stock" sound after spending money :)
Also as a newbie, I agree. It's very easy to get carried away tube rolling.
I have to say though, the RCA I replaced my new production tubes with really smoothed out the rough edges I was hearing. I hate describing sound with text but that the best way I can describe it
Sounds like you started out stock with a strong tube!
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Hi all.
I've tried with my Crack the Raytheon 6080, the RCA 6080 and the RCA 6AS7G and if there is a difference between those three, I am not sure I have heard a difference. I'm not saying that there is not difference, but to my ears if there is one , in minimal.
Same thing goes for the 12AU7 (NOS) of different manufacturers
(RCA. Sylvania....)
With the stock tubes, the Crack sounds pretty good
and I will stop spending my hard earned money on tubes that makes
very little difference, to my ears anyway.
If there a tube that is a lot better sounding
and I mean a lot better for less than 50 USD,
then share you finding with us
and I might buy it.
Guy 13
By the way,
is the Chatham 5998 really better sounding than the rest of the crowd ?
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Hi all.
I've tried with my Crack the Raytheon 6080, the RCA 6080 and the RCA 6AS7G and if there is a difference between those three, I am not sure I have heard a difference. I'm not saying that there is not difference, but to my ears if there is one , in minimal.
Same thing goes for the 12AU7 (NOS) of different manufacturers
(RCA. Sylvania....)
With the stock tubes, the Crack sounds pretty good
and I will stop spending my hard earned money on tubes that makes
very little difference, to my ears anyway.
If there a tube that is a lot better sounding
and I mean a lot better for less than 50 USD,
then share you finding with us
and I might buy it.
Guy 13
By the way,
is the Chatham 5998 really better sounding than the rest of the crowd ?
Guy re the 5998 short answer yes its a very good tube, if your patient they can be found $75-$85 nos from dealers or less for used off of classifieds.
The Mullard 6080 is one of my favourite tubes $25-$35 I use it more than my 5998.
Also the Chatham 6as7g is worth a try if you like female vocals around $15
Mullard 6080 is one of my favourites
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Why not try the RCA 6AS7G too? It can be bought for around $20, and to me its darn good. Apparetly combined with the clear tops, its a great sounding combination..
Oh, believe me, I've unleashed a monster with this epiphany and have like 8 tubes headed my way in the mail. RCA 6AS7G is on my short list.
Any input on grey plate vs black plate regarding the RCA 6AS7G?
I have both the black and grey plates. People say the black ones sound better, but to me they sounded the same..and they cost pretty much the same too
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Just picked up a NIB pair of Tung Sol 7802WB tubes. Can't wait for my kit to arrive so the tubes have a home.
Fun times ahead. Fun times. Haven't felt the cruel delight of anticipation so deeply for a very long time.
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Nathan I have one of those on the way also.
Heres the thing I was swapping some tubes round this morning and whoops my Siemens e80cc one of my favourite tubes decided to roll off the table and is now toast.
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freesmileys.org%2Fsmileys%2Fsmiley-sad055.gif&hash=1dceb14c3e5f3c48348ee5e6e58e88183a6f26b8)
A short while after the postman arrived with a little package from Bulgaria! I had been waiting a few weeks for it to arrive and wasn't exactly sure about what I had brought because the lighting on the sellers pic was not clear but knew at the very least it was a pair of Tungsram E80cc.
Once opened I had a big grin they where what I was hoping they would be a pair of uber rare Tungsram E80cc with silver plates (chrome?) and D foil getters! I had heard of these mythical tubes but had not even managed to find a pic. Defiantly long term keepers.
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freesmileys.org%2Fsmileys%2Fsmiley-happy093.gif&hash=7ae24ebab8b35d8b6c783b0d96400b94f298d57e)
The best part is they came with test readings and sound absolutely superb.
(https://www.head-fi.org/image/id/5954681/width/900/height/900/flags/LL)
(https://www.head-fi.org/image/id/5954682/width/900/height/900/flags/LL)
(https://www.head-fi.org/image/id/5954683/width/900/height/900/flags/LL)
(https://www.head-fi.org/image/id/5954684/width/900/height/900/flags/LL)
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Jamie, how does the Tungsram silver plates sound compared with your Siemens E80CC? Is there a significant improvement?
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Jamie, how does the Tungsram silver plates sound compared with your Siemens E80CC? Is there a significant improvement?
Yes I believe so, generally its very much of a similar flavour but has a certain something I cant put quiet put my finger on at the moment. Once I have a little more listening time it might become more obvious to me.
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Good for you, Jamie. Those are really desirable looking tubes! I don't believe I've ever seen one up for sale... are these older variety of the usual red label Tungsram with O-getter?
Enjoy the tunes, and do post your impression later on.
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Good for you, Jamie. Those are really desirable looking tubes! I don't believe I've ever seen one up for sale... are these older variety of the usual red label Tungsram with O-getter?
Enjoy the tunes, and do post your impression later on.
I really don't know there seems to be very little info online about them.
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I have somehow managed to loose the stock tubes that came with my crack kit (I took them out of the box to protect them and now I cannot find them). Where should I begin? I wouldn't like to spend too much and living in Greece, I would really appreciate any suggestions on where to buy these tubes (preferably Europe). Many thanks!
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I would really appreciate any suggestions on where to buy these tubes (preferably Europe). Many thanks!
You'll probably be able to find better 12AU7 variants in Europe, but the 6080 may be tougher. You'll find lots of good choices on eBay!
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Thanks for the reply. Fortunately I found the stock tubes. However I spotted a Telefunken 6080 at a reasonable price and having heard of the glorious input tubes Telefunken used to make I was very curious about their 6080. Has anyone heard it?
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I bought a Telefunken 6080 once from eBay. It was just a rebranded GE and worth about $10. I paid $50. Be careful.
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The Mullard 6080 mitchum is my favourite of that type it bats well above its cost I might even prefer it over the 5998 and its roughly about a quarter or less of the 5998s price
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Can anyone recommend a decent input tube to go along with a Tung Sol 6080 or RCA 6AS7G?
I have a couple of 12AU7 clear tops, but the treble is too harsh for my ears. The clear tops are also harsh with the Tung Sol 6080 I received with the kit, but better than than with the RCA 6AS7G.
Thanks in advance.
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Budget? Sonic preferences?
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Reasonably priced. Under $30 for the one tube. Just want something warmer and not as harsh in the highs.
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Keep your eye open for a used Mullard or Brimar (there are lots of types, but they are generally warm).
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Can anyone recommend a decent input tube to go along with a Tung Sol 6080 or RCA 6AS7G?
I have a couple of 12AU7 clear tops, but the treble is too harsh for my ears. The clear tops are also harsh with the Tung Sol 6080 I received with the kit, but better than than with the RCA 6AS7G.
Thanks in advance.
As an alternative and if you have the speedball fitted the E80cc would be a good choice. After rolling lots of 12au7 the E80cc it is my go to tube now.
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Didn't you need to change the voltage going to the driver tube to accommodate the E80CC though?
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No you don't need to but if you do it does help get the best from the tube.
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Anyone with knowledge on the Telefunken E80CC? Saw it on ebay, but it looks structurally similar to a Tungsram (which is an excellent tube).
http://www.ebay.com/itm/261454459992?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
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Anyone with knowledge on the Telefunken E80CC? Saw it on ebay, but it looks structurally similar to a Tungsram (which is an excellent tube).
http://www.ebay.com/itm/261454459992?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
I have not tried the Telefunken but have had several tubes from the same seller
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Not much is written about the E80CC tubes. There are a few brands out there - Philips, Tungsram, Siemens, Telefunken. But from the pics, I see only 2 different types structurally - Philips (with gold pins) and Tungsram (with silvery pins). Anyone with knowledge of the E80CC can shed some light on this?
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please say there's a difference ;D
I just bought 2 x Telefunken E80CC a few days ago and could got tungsram much cheaper :-[
I just searched google min ago and someone on a forum says no difference with alot of these tubes
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Yeah, I was tempted to buy the Telefunken E80CC, but it looks very similar to the Tungsram, that's why I'm asking.
Philips, Amperex, some Siemens look similar (with gold pins)
Tungsram, Telefunken, some Siemens look similar (with silver pins)
Someone on ebay posted a pair of Valvo E80CC from Hamburg plant, pinched waist... for a very nice price of $395.
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Yeah you really have to do your research don't you ;) ...Same what I read serpent. and $385 !
Jamie saved me once on buying a load of dodgy 5998 tubes ;)
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There is a some info on the different E80CC from what I have read the Tungsrams/Siemens with the nickel/steel pins are meant to be a touch more neautral and linear and the gold pin Philips/Valvo are said to be more coloured. I have only used the Tungsrams & Siemens E80cc but that seams to match what I am hearing.
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>:(
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs5.postimg.org%2Ff9ehcnbpf%2F2014_05_02_20_00_06.jpg&hash=ed13c588cd96aa36c469b01159d8eb1ccba704cb) (http://postimg.org/image/f9ehcnbpf/)
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs5.postimg.org%2Flbm43505f%2F2014_05_02_20_00_26.jpg&hash=061fd831f5e2af7b306d0c4324a7d87a01ca05ca) (http://postimg.org/image/lbm43505f/)
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs5.postimg.org%2Fz2lzrlzpf%2F2014_05_02_19_58_55.jpg&hash=eefc8f568e20ac07abc8f47e0a6874ea43100fc2) (http://postimg.org/image/z2lzrlzpf/)
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Are those the ones from the 0 feed back ebay guy they look to be in great condition? Just listening to mine at the mo with a cuppa my reward for mowing the lawn (jungle) for first time this year.
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Yes they are Jamie :) Thanks. Will have another chatham 5998 Wednesday and thats me finished with the 5998 ................I'd liked to try the GEC tube next.
The relisted ones the guy re added on ebay have just sold for $100 2 tubes.
he who dares rodney ...he who dares ;D
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I can't see anything wrong with the 5998 tubes in Hornet's pics. Is there something that I should be looking out for?
The next tube I really want to try is also the GEC A1834. Somehow, the prices on these are way too high. I wonder if the GEC 6080WA is a close enough compromise. Jamie speaks highly of the Mullard 6080, is that the same tube as the GEC6080?
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I got a Chatham 2399 from vacuumtubes.net. Unfortunately it is extremely microphonic, I guess I will be sending it back. From reading online it seems this is common with the ones from vacuumtubes.net, I guess I should've done some more research before ordering. It really sucks that the 5998 is so expensive on eBay.
I got a standard RCA 6080 with my kit, and I picked up a Chatham 6080WA on eBay for cheap. So far I like the Chatham 6080WA better. The bass seems a little more controlled with it.
Right now I just have a stock Crack.
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A microphonic tube in a headphone amp usually isn't an issue.
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I can hear it ring(?) sometimes when I reach over and grab and turn the volume control, even when music is playing. It only rings for a second or two, but it's kind of annoying. I don't have this problem with either of the 6080 tubes I have.
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Yeah, that isn't particularly abnormal.
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Alright, my ignorance and this being my first tube amp is showing through :) I defer to the great Bottleheads and will give it another chance :)
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I can hear it ring(?) sometimes when I reach over and grab and turn the volume control, even when music is playing. It only rings for a second or two, but it's kind of annoying. I don't have this problem with either of the 6080 tubes I have.
This is par for the course and the GEC's are a little more sensitive than others. I don't normally need to change the volume once set so its not a problem and am happy to live with a few idiosyncrasies with these tubes for the results they give.
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Hey guys, just bought this tube off the bay.
Supposedly a military GEC CV 2523.
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I have one just like it ;D
I took a stab at looking up the codes this is what I think they refer to
CV is the common valve name/type
The broad arrow is the UK Government issue mark,
I think the letter codes on the side under the arrow are date of manufacture July 1965
X denotes Director of Electronics Research and Development (DERAD) AIR approval.
Z denotes place of manufacture MO Valve Company, Hammersmith
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Bought these a few days ago.
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Are they the ones Skylab (headfi) had listed?
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Yep. Also got a nice pair of 5998s from him
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Thanks, guys, I guess Im in for a treat:)
Will post images when I get them!
Good Job on deciphering the markings, Jamie.
MO is Marconi, right?
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By the way... I hope I didn't waste my money but I purchased this Mullard 6AS7G. I wanted stay pretty close to the original design and I liked the look of this NOS NIB tube. I won't have much to compare it to but I like the getter at the bottom rather than the top. I have not figured out what the extra wide ring is at the top. Anyone know?
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At least the seller listed it as Russian, which is probably what it is. Don't think Mullard themselves made a 6AS7 as that an American designation.
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They did re-brand tubes, i have a pair of Mullard 6DN7's which they obviously didn't manufacture, but curiously they don't have any country of manufacture written on them.
I would lay money on them being Sylvania tubes, so i assume they were made in the US.
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Yeah, that Mullard 6AS7 looks identical to your average RCA 6AS7G.
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I received the Mullard 6AS7 in the mail today. Here it is next to a classic RCA 6AS7. The Mullard bottle is larger, the cooling fins are different, and the getters are different. The actual plates look the same however.
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Your Mullard really looks like a rebranded Svetlana. I have one that states "Made in West Germany" (no other brand). If I'm not mistaken, I would say they were all made in Russia. IMHO, the big (at least bigger than my RCA 6AS7Gs) metallic deposit at the bottom of the tube is a good indication of Svetlana.
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Fabien,
I believe you are correct. Here is a Svetlana tube. Looks identical. I hope it sounds good.
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Does anyone know where I can buy GEC 6AS7G online? I know they're hard to find and there aren't any on eBay either.
I've only managed to find an NOS GEC 6080W selling for $75US. Reasonable?
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There are 4 or 5 on ebay at the moment search for A1834 or CV2523 instead they can come branded as GEC, Osram, MARCONI, MOV & Genalex they are all essentially the same 6AS7G tube from the same factory and can be identified by the silver saucer shaped cup getter at the base of the tube. You will also find unbranded government issue ones with just the identification numbers on them. Some of the early MOV ones have black bases but the tube structure is the same.
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I had good experiences with Langrex in the UK (Ebay or langrex.co.uk). They have some GE 6AS7GA for 12 £. I never heard of the this tube before but I just ordered one, the bottle is something between a 6AS7G and a 6080 :)
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Can anyone tell me if this is the same as the GEC Brown Base 6AS7G A1834 CV2523? About to pull the trigger.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/6AS7G-A1834-CV2523-TUBE-GEC-OSRAM-MOV-BROWN-BASE-/121325981859?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Valves_Vacuum_Tubes&hash=item1c3f9790a3
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Yep. Jamie on the forums here has listed this one.
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Anyone tried a 13D3 in input position? Looks like a higher gain version of 12AU7, just as ECC32 is a higher gain version of 6SN7.
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The 13D3 will give higher than desirable grid bias on the 6080, so not the greatest idea without modifications.
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Thanks Paul.
Don't mind modding to get a good op. Experimenting is half the fun!
I guess I draw a load line on the data sheet, find the 75 V Plate voltage and either use Ohm's law to determine the necessary plate load and/or change the tube's grid voltage using a different LED to set bias. Do I have it right?
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Draw a dot at about 75V and 1.5V of cathode voltage. If you have the Speedball, you slide over to the "Y" axis and look at what current this is, then set R1 appropriately.
If you want to use resistive plate loads, add a dot at maximum voltage (power supply is about 200V, so use that), then connect the dots, drawing your line till it hits the Y axis. The slope of this line will be the plate load that should yield 75V. Do note that this doesn't assure good performance in terms of distortion, just that you get the voltage you need.
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Cathode voltage? Do you mean grid voltage?
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It is grid to cathode voltage, so 1.5V on the cathode is considered -1.5V on the grid (provided the grid is grounded of course).
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Awesome. Thanks for clearing that up.
Is there any reason to suspect distortion! Can I predict this in advance from the data sheets?
Thanks
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Yeah, you can read up about interpreting load lines. The lowest distortion for a triode will be a load line of infinite impedance (C4S), while acceptable performance generally starts at around 3x plate impedance. You can also look at the load line you've drawn and examine each chunk of the load line that has been sliced up by the curves on the graph. If the segments are pretty equal in length, especially close to your quiescent operating point, then you'll probably be OK. If the segments get really short on one end and really long on the other, you will hear that.
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6GU7 is a NO-GO,someone mention running "6GU7"on crack along with E80CC...all em I getting is some "hum"..waist of time
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Pin assignment is different
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Pin assignment is different
thanks,hope this helps
http://www.ebay.com/itm/201083377532
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Looks promising. Keep us updated.
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I just received my Tung Sol / Chatham 5998 and couldn't believe the difference from either the RCA or Svetlana 6AS7G. I then looked closely at the cage structure of each tube and noted a very significant difference. In the 5998 the plate is much longer than the cathode and grid, which will collect electrons that are even emitted on the sides of the cathode. Further, the 5998 topology will also shield one triode from the other, reducing cross talk. The 6AS7Gs I had have the cathode and grid about the same length as the plate. I assume this was to facilitate uniform electron travel, but this also allows some (probably small but also probably not insignificant) cross talk between the triodes. Is this correct? I guess I was struck at the significant difference between the tubes. I have drawn a representation of the two tubes for reference. I hope I got it right. Anyway, this difference may help explain why the 5998 sounds so much better than the RCA 6AS7G configuration.
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You could play a strong 60Hz tone into the left channel of your Crack and measure the 60Hz output on the right channel with the 6080 and 6AS7 to get a feel for whether or not there is any crosstalk difference between the two.
FWIW, the spacing is pretty tight between all the elements in one half of a 6080 compared to the distance between the two structures themselves.
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PB,
I used audacity to create a 60 hz tone on the right channel and played it through my DAC which has the capability to reach +4dbu (pro audio 0VU). Then I sent it to the amp and listened with a pair of headphones. I definitely heard the tone on the quite channel. I then used tape to isolate the ring (right channel) on the TRS plug to hear just the cross talk. The signal was quite a bit louder with the RCA 6AS7G than the 5998, although it was still present with the 5998. I am not sure where the cross talk is coming from but in order to hear it you have to have the amp up at 80% volume with with a +4dbu signal. At -10dbV I can't hear anything with either tube. That is where the amp is spec'ed to run. Now I will look for an oscilloscope to actually do some more measurements. One more thing, I noticed that the 5998 was stronger then the 6AS7G that I have. All in all I like my current combination of the 1958 French RT 12AU7 long plate (balanced) and the 5998. I am really enjoying this amp.
P.S. You are correct on the spacing. The plate separation on the 6AS7G is about 2.5mm for each triode, and about 6mm between the triodes.
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You should be able to get an AC voltage reading with your meter for the channel that's supposed to have the 60Hz and the channel that isn't. This should give you a good starting point for actually measuring the crosstalk.
Using the scope will let you use something like a 1Khz tone, which will be quite distinct from 60Hz noise introduced through the mains. (IE better accuracy)
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I don't have my multimeter here in my office so I can't do the measurements yet, but I do need to make a correction. I traced down the cross talk to the signal source and not the amp. When I generated the tone on a stereo channel I left the other channel with no data. That was a big mistake. I repeated my initial testing by generating a 60 hz tone on the right channel and silence on the left channel. Now I get no audible crosstalk with either tube even with the volume all the way up. My Tesla T1s have an SPL of 102db so it appears that if there is any crosstalk difference between the tubes because of their respective topologies, it is moot. This seems more reasonable to me.
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What is the proper procedure to follow when rolling a tube? Really don't want some of my tubes to be blown out.
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Pretty simple, just be sure the amp is off when you swap tubes, and stay with the types that are recommended for the circuit.
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I am sensitive to sibilance on a lot of recordings and was wondering if there are any tubes that can help smooth out any harsh sounds. I have the crack speedball with modi dac. Thanks
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I am sensitive to sibilance on a lot of recordings and was wondering if there are any tubes that can help smooth out any harsh sounds. I have the crack speedball with modi dac. Thanks
Mullards in either one or both tubes positions would be worth a try. Both are nice sounding tube also ;D
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I found that the RCA clear top was smooth and less silibant than the new production tube my kit came with. It's an affordable tube too, can usually be found lightly used for about $10 online.
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I purchased an RCA Black plate 6AS7G (probably dated 1950/60s) and it sounded like crap imo. I'm not sure if I got a defective tube (though it was tested prior to purchasing) it sounded muddy compared with the Philips JAN 6080WC tube that came with my Crack kit. The difference was astonishing. The analytics were gone and sounded "ordinary", nothing magical about it.
The driver tube I'm using is a Telefunken 12AU7 ribbed plate. (Fantastic btw)
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Early 1950's Tung-sol 5998 Clear top!
I am actually quiet chuffed with this find, it was in with a bunch of various different untested tubes so took a bit of a gamble with it. First try it didn't work no sound no glow on the heaters :'(
I pulled it out and had a look to see if I could see any internal damage then retried it ah ha heaters are now glowing and sound but slightly muffled and occasionally dropping out and in on one channel. ???
Pulled it out to check the pins and they were totally black with some kind of hard carbon or oxidation type of residue. Ten minutes of pin scraping with a xacto knife and a little buff with scotch brite pad later gleaming pins reinsert deep breath and a sigh of relief tubes now working perfectly and its a beautiful sounding tube what a result! :)
(https://www.head-fi.org/content/type/61/id/1123319/width/350/height/700/flags/LL)
(https://www.head-fi.org/content/type/61/id/1123314/width/350/height/700/flags/LL)
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Retrofitted my crack to run the 5687 on 2 toggle switches and all I can say is WOW! I currently have the Raytheon JRP 5687WA and it has done wonders for my set up. Before the mod, the two tubes I found myself using the most were my Telefunken e80cc and my RCA long black plate 12bh7a D getter.
The Telefunken e80cc really brings out the highs for the hd650s (removing all veil) and has a quite impressive overall soundstage. Instruments are full but blend into each other a little bit (compared to the 12bh7a and the 5687). The overall sound signature is balanced with the hd650s and the bass is tight yet lush (missing from the 5687).
The RCA black plate 12bh7a is one of my favorite tubes because of its wide soundstage and its overall lushness. The bass is lush like the e80cc but isn't quite as tight as it feels looser making it "tubier". The 12bh7a makes the beyerdynamic T1s extremely balanced but doesnt quite have the same extension in the highs that the e80cc and the 5687 has that the hd650s need.
Finally, the Raytheon military spec JRP 5687WA. This is the most 3 dimensional sounding tube I've ever heard. The hd650s sound incredibly large and as a result instrument separation has become pretty incredible too. The one downside of this tube is its lack of bass presence. The hd650s are a generally bassy pair of headphones and the raytheons recess it quite noticeably. While still being incredibly tight and fast, its lack of wholebodiness (in the bass) is a little disappointing. Besides the slightly recessed bass the tube is incredibly extended and balanced and I'm going to roll my crack with some other 5687s/equivalent to hopefully bring that bass back to life.
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Got my 421A in the mail today. Looks beautiful, sounds better, tests good.
Happy man today.
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I imagine that should bring you a nice decade or so of musical enjoyment. Nice!
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Might last longer than that. My TV7 says the Triodes test 60/63 where 40 is the minimum acceptable value. This is a mighty fine tube and it's real well balanced and it makes beautiful treble that I just wasn't quite satisfied with before.
Of course it literally cost more than a stock Crack does but who cares? This sounds AMAZING!
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If it makes you happy, I have no problem spending more on the tubes than the amp. I mean I can't actually do it myself, but as a concept it sounds fine to me!
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Not sure why this excites me but it does.
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Lol, so many comments, so little time!
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I want your tube tester, proper bit of kit!
...nice tube too by the way ;)
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So after retrofitting for the 5687 I decided to roll the 7119 equivalent as it seems to be a very well regarded tube (Doc B. loves it). The Amperex 7119 is so far the best tube for my hd650s. The sound signature is brighter than the raytheon 5687, the bass is more extended and significantly airer but not quite as tight as the 5687, and the mids are lusher. Overall the tone is extremely enjoyable as it really gives the hd650s some treble energy with absolutely beautiful separation and imaging. Each instrument demands its own area and instruments dont bleed into each other at all. I tried this tube with the onelivewire's beyerdynamic T1's and even though it definitely sounded impressive, it wasn't as good as a match as the raytheon as the tube was too bright for my liking.
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Got my 421A in the mail today. Looks beautiful, sounds better, tests good.
Where did you buy it? I've been looking all over for them.
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Where did you buy it? I've been looking all over for them.
eBay. I literally have been trying to get one for years. I usually bid $200 or $225 and lose every single time. There are some on eBay that I believe to be quite questionable regarding authenticity. Anyway i found this one and threw caution to the wind and bid $275 as it started creeping up there I thought for sure somebody else would get it but it ended exactly at $275. So by my estimation I overpaid for it but I can't get the Sennheiser HD650's off my head since I got it.
Oddly enough I have some pretty epic 12AU7's and I think the best match for this tube is the cheap RCA clear top. With other 6080's a Mullurd box plate CV 4003 was best. For whatever reason I don't care for Telefunken tubes in the crack. WE421A with orange label Clear Top = Best.
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I want your tube tester, proper bit of kit!
...nice tube too by the way ;)
I work for the government. Few years ago I was at a repair / overhaul facility in North Island San Diego doing a project on an Aircraft Visual Landing Aid. There it sat. I asked the boss about it and he told me they had actually just stopped using it because the last piece of gear with a tube in it, a ships gyro, had just been transitioned out. It had just been overhauled and calibrated as well. They told me I could have it.
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eBay. I literally have been trying to get one for years. I usually bid $200 or $225 and lose every single time. There are some on eBay that I believe to be quite questionable regarding authenticity. Anyway i found this one and threw caution to the wind and bid $275 as it started creeping up there I thought for sure somebody else would get it but it ended exactly at $275. So by my estimation I overpaid for it but I can't get the Sennheiser HD650's off my head since I got it.
Oddly enough I have some pretty epic 12AU7's and I think the best match for this tube is the cheap RCA clear top. With other 6080's a Mullurd box plate CV 4003 was best. For whatever reason I don't care for Telefunken tubes in the crack. WE421A with orange label Clear Top = Best.
Bah. I went back and forth on the 421A and settled on my TS 1959 5998. Then I went for a month on the WE41A, then back to the 5998 and the soundstage came back. The glare and noise in the treble went away.
I bought my 421A for $150, sold for $190 is all I got on ebay. Buyer seems to be happy with it. I put around 100hrs on it only. Ebay had dried up that week. I was really happy when I got it, but after listening, I found the 'airy' treble to be false.
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Oh, you like clear tops! ::) That explains your taste for 'air'. Oy! Makes my teeth grind. Can't imagine the 421 with a cleartop.
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Oh, you like clear tops! ::) That explains your taste for 'air'. Oy! Makes my teeth grind. Can't imagine the 421 with a cleartop.
I'm generally NOT a fan of the Clear Top however I'm telling you in this rig with the 421A it's the best to my ears. I've run through my collection as well. The only thing I have not tried yet is my 7316 tubes. I have two and while both test okay on my TV-7 tester one of them blows stuff up. I wasn't smart enough to mark it and am scared to play 50/50. Or who knows maybe both were okay and there was some other factor at play. I should pop a cheap 6080 in and try them both.
Anyway I have 5 clear tops and only the orange label one sounds awesome to my ears.
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Received a 5687 Tungsol cryo treated with black plates from the 1950's and the results are extremely holographic. Comparing to my amperex 7119 PQ, the bass tones are not quite as tight but as a result it has a lot of air. Overall data/detail retrieval between the two tubes are pretty comparable and so is the soundstage size and instrument separation. The tung-sol definitely matched the beyerdynamic T1's better than the hd650s but it was still a tad bright (with the t1s) for my liking. I think I'll be sticking with my 7119s!
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Hi,I just ordered my Crack kit with SB few days ago and i'am looking for any reasonable price upgrade tubes.These are the Tubes i have RCA 6AS7G's,Raytheon 6AS7G's,Sylvania 6AS7G's,Chatham 6AS7G's,RCA,Sylvania,GE 6080's,JJ,EH,Rogers 12AU7's and Various makers of 6SN7's.Can i use the 6SN7 with the Crack?Thank You!
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Yes you can with adaptor.
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Yes you can with adaptor.
Thank You!No problem for the adapter i can make those actually i already made some for my other amps that i can used with the crack.The tube heater power is powered by desktop power supply.
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Anyone got an opinion as to what is the best input tube to match the GEC 6AS7G/ CV2523 brown base?
I find it hard to express what I want except I want the LIVE/ being there experience as close as it gets.
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I normally pair my GEC with either a Tungsram or Siemens E80cc ;)
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Anyone got an opinion as to what is the best input tube to match the GEC 6AS7G/ CV2523 brown base?
I find it hard to express what I want except I want the LIVE/ being there experience as close as it gets.
For darker headphones like the hd650s I'd recommend going with the telefunken or tungsram e80cc. For brighter headphones like the T1s I'd recommend the 12bh7a.
If you want a holographic and concert like experience I recommend retrofitting for the 5687/7119!
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Thanks guys. Siemens E80cc ordered
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Thanks guys. Siemens E80cc ordered
Now that you have your e80cc's, I highly recommend this mod to run it at the correct voltage:
http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,5989.30.html
I noticed significant sound improvements when running the tubes at the correct voltages and it also will increase the life of your tube!
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Thanks, I though it was a drop in replacement when the speedball is installed, ref first post.
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Thanks, I though it was a drop in replacement when the speedball is installed, ref first post.
It basically is and I used mine that way for six months before doing the above mod which tweaks the circuit to a better operating point for the tube so it performs a little better. The mod is easy enough and can be done for well under $10 and well worth the short time it takes to do.
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Sweet. Why stop modding now:)
By the way, it seems Your resistors are in parallell for E80CC mod and not in series.
Cool way of doing it! I probably would have found a switch between a 237 and 470ohms resistor that alternates between them.
Would this do as a switch? http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1633279.pdf
Planning on superglueing the base to each of the small speedball boards.
Oh, and these are the Resistors I am getting: http://no.farnell.com/multicomp/mf12-470r/resistor-0-125w-1-470r/dp/9343245
Those are metal film. Anyone prefer carbon composition?
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Don't use carbon comp - they are noisy when DC current flows, and they drift in value. Metal film or bulk metal foil ($$) were recommended by the original designer, John Camille.
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Thanks Paul, I thought I had read something like that around here.
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I am asking the tech experts here, the switches that have been applied, and the one I have bought myself are very large.
What are the specs they need to fulfill in order to switch from one 470ohm to two 470ohms in parallell in terms of heat tolerance, voltage and current?
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What are the specs they need to fulfill in order to switch from one 470ohm to two 470ohms in parallell in terms of heat tolerance, voltage and current?
Almost nothing. 3V, 5mA.
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Thank You so much:) That should reduce size and weight a bit!
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I got a nice TS 5998 a few weeks ago when a bunch popped up on ebay and have been busy listening and trying to match up 12au7s to it for a while now. I had a bit of an epiphany yesterday... I got a really cheap deal on some tung-sol 6080s (just plain 6080) a while back being the only bidder on an auction from Germany, had installed one and really liked it, but then started with the 5998.
I went back to the 6080 yesterday and... I prefer the sound over the 5998. It's got much more heft on the bottom end, the stereo imagery seems more "wide" somehow, and the top end is less fatiguing. I received two 1964 GE 5814A's today (this ebay habit is getting ridiculous but I couldn't resist trying a valve made one year before I was born, and they were only £13 each) and the match is wonderful, to my ears.
I do know I have a preference for low/mid and don't like too much piercing treble. Perhaps this combination happens to suit my ears, or maybe my 5998 is lacking somehow... or is it a case of the Emperors new clothes with some of the pricier valves? I was wondering whether anyone else ended up settling on something else having tried the 5998 or am I the only one?
Paul.
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I do know I have a preference for low/mid and don't like too much piercing treble. Perhaps this combination happens to suit my ears, or maybe my 5998 is lacking somehow... or is it a case of the Emperors new clothes with some of the pricier valves? I was wondering whether anyone else ended up settling on something else having tried the 5998 or am I the only one?
Paul.
Paul I don't think your alone here I will often listen to a Mullard or GEC 6080 in preference to the 5998 both cost a quarter of the price and can often still be found for under $15. While the 5998 is the more competent all round tube sometimes depending on the genre listened to certain 6080's can be just glorious with a particular track or album.
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I think one of the problems is that a tube in high demand will more likely have gone through several hands before you get it, and the good ones have been weeded out of the pool of available ones.
I also suspect (but can't prove) that an important parameter is the trace chemistry of the oxide coating, which will vary between individual tubes - the tube type and/or manufacturer is correlated but not an infallible indicator. Since it's all proprietary secrets, there are no specs to go by.
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I just got an awesome deal on a WE421A yellow/orange label, clear top and this thing is fantastic! I found that compared to my Chatham 5998 the we421a has a slightly smoother and extended top end as well as more perceived timbre in each instrument. I also found mid-highs to sound a little more detailed as I can tell each notes transients better. One hell of a tube!!
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Is it possible to run 6AS7G/6080 as input tube with a external power supply for the tube heater and what are the necessary MOD to run this tube for the CRACK?THANK YOU!
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Is this the right tube for my Crack? In all the photos I've seen of people's completed kits, I don't think I've seen this one..
I like the look of it.. looks a bit like the 300B (in my limited experience), but I hope I've been shipped the right one.
Dan
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What are the markings on the box or tube say. Probably a Sovtek 6AS7G. If so that will work fine.
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Yes, the box has 6AS7 on it.
Thanks
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That's the right tube. It's just the (sexier) ST bottle shape versus the ruggedized shorter bottle of the militarized 6AS7
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Is it possible to run 6AS7G/6080 as input tube with a external power supply for the tube heater and what are the necessary MOD to run this tube for the CRACK?THANK YOU!
This won't work all that well, as the overall gain of the circuit will drop drastically, to maybe something like 5dB with Speedball and maybe 1-2dB without Speedball. You would also need two of the large Speedball boards to facilitate this.
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I thought it would but that's ok, THANK YOU!
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Hey so I am building the BH Crack.I needed some help with which tubes to buy.I was hoping if you guys could help me get started.Just shoot out some names of both input and output tubes.Nothing too expensive for starters.Some cheap-bang-for-buck.
I am looking for following sound signature :-
1.Pure analytical sound with insane instrument separation and detail.
2.Pure musical sound with smooth juicy mids and large soundstage,etc.
Headphones :- hd650, dt880/250 pros
Dac : - ODAC.
Let me know.
Thanks.
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Hi a popular input tube choice for the HD650 is the RCA 12AU7 clear top it is both widely available and inexpensive and a good place to start.
For the driver tube a good bang for your buck one would be something like a Chatham 6as7g. The Philco 6as7g I tried was also nice and from what I can gather where apparently manufactured by Amperex.
RCA 12au7 clear tops are easy to find on ebay and are often branded Conn just search ebay "12au7 clear top".
The Chathams turn up regularly and you might see some change from $20 for both tubes on ebay.
http://www.vacuumtubes.net/prices.htm have the Chathams 6as7g's for $20 each by the way
You will find that at the budget end having both 1 & 2 on your list will be challenging its not to hard to have either 1 or 2 on a budget, but not both at the same time so one or of them will be a slight compromise at the budget end.
Have a read of Nick Tams superb Multi 6080/6as7g post to get a handle on tube options for the Crack. It was original posted on the old BHF and in the move to the new website became truncated and a lot of the info was lost. But this link should show original post in full.
http://the-key.enix.org/~krystal/review-tube-bottlehead.html
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Are the Chathams 6AS7 similar to the Tung-Sol 5998?
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Are the Chathams 6AS7 similar to the Tung-Sol 5998?
Read the review in the link posted above it offers a accurate description of the different tubes.
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You could possibly get a clear top with your kit, so you may want to wait until it arrives.
-PB
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I received a clear top RCA 12AU7 from my kit. Installed it and there's no sound from the right channel. There's also a lot of buzzing noise.
Replaced it with another tube and the problem went away.
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You can always return it to us for a replacement.
-PB
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Hello, I read the entire 60 pages of the tube rolling thread and searched T1 on the forum.
Still could not really find a clear answer so I thought I would come out and ask.
I currently have a stock Crack + Speedball - no modifications other then aesthetics.
They would be used with a Beyer T1 and a 5998 tube. (Possibly a 7236 as well)
What would pair well with the 5998 tube, or does it even matter?
I read on the forum that 12BH7A are good for T1's because (and I agree) they are quite bright.
I also read that E80CC but am worried about the modifications needed. (I am also confused if you actually need to modify it for an E80CC)
Does anyone have any recommendations for this headphone? Thank you in advanced!
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Hello, I read the entire 60 pages of the tube rolling thread and searched T1 on the forum.
Still could not really find a clear answer so I thought I would come out and ask.
I currently have a stock Crack + Speedball - no modifications other then aesthetics.
They would be used with a Beyer T1 and a 5998 tube. (Possibly a 7236 as well)
What would pair well with the 5998 tube, or does it even matter?
I read on the forum that 12BH7A are good for T1's because (and I agree) they are quite bright.
I also read that E80CC but am worried about the modifications needed. (I am also confused if you actually need to modify it for an E80CC)
Does anyone have any recommendations for this headphone? Thank you in advanced!
I found that the Sylvania 12bh7a's were a fantastic pair with the T1's. However, I would still recommend implementing the resistor mod to run the tube at the optimal plate voltage as it is very simple and can be done for well under $10!
The e80cc is also quite nice with the T1's as it has a superior detail retrieval compared to the 12au7 but is definitely brighter than the 12bh7a's (which are also great for data retrieval). If you decide to get a e80cc I would implement the resistor mod too!
If you're in a modding kind of mood I would highly recommend retrofitting the crack to run the 5687 tube as the T1's match the Sylvania GB5687 better than any other tube I've tried the T1's with! In fact I run my HD800's with a 5687 tube (RCA's) too! It's quite the project (still very cheap) but the results are fantastic!
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Hello, I read the entire 60 pages of the tube rolling thread and searched T1 on the forum.
Still could not really find a clear answer so I thought I would come out and ask.
I currently have a stock Crack + Speedball - no modifications other then aesthetics.
They would be used with a Beyer T1 and a 5998 tube. (Possibly a 7236 as well)
What would pair well with the 5998 tube, or does it even matter?
I read on the forum that 12BH7A are good for T1's because (and I agree) they are quite bright.
I also read that E80CC but am worried about the modifications needed. (I am also confused if you actually need to modify it for an E80CC)
Does anyone have any recommendations for this headphone? Thank you in advanced!
I would agree with the above post and also add with the T1's you will be in for nice surprise if you ever get the urge to swap out those electrolytic coupling caps for film ones and change standard volume pot for a stepped attenuator.
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Without going to much into modding your Crack I would use the combo of a 5998 and a Mullard CV4003. It is a 12AU7. I have DT880 600ohm which like the T1 are pretty bright. This combination really helped with that.
Also, with the above posts, was is so nice with the Crack is the almost endless things you can do with it! Good luck!...Dave
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I know its the tube thread but if your running with the T1 I would really recommend later trying the standard mods of volume pot and film output caps bypassed with a inexpensive Russian Teflon they really help refine the top end of the phones and takes the T1's to a whole different level.
Everyone raves about how good a match the Crack is with HD650. But with a few mods the Crack can be a epic a match with the T1's as well.
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I just got a pair of Bendix 6080wb slotted graphite plates and I'm absolutely blown away! The bendix is the most articulate tube I've heard on my set up yet (I've heard a couple of new things on an album I've listened to a million times)! They beat all the tungsol 5998, tungsol 7236, the we421a, and the gec 6as7g in terms of speed and accuracy and really jive with my hd800s. I also really do enjoy the warm sound it provides but I wish there was a tad bit more bass presence (like the GECs). As it stands, the Bendix is my go to tube for all music besides those that are brighter in nature (usually rock albums) and those that are recorded poorer; in those cases my GEC is the tube on my crack.
I highly recommend this tube as it is truly unbeatable in it's price range!
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I just picked up a NOS 12AU7 RCA clear top which cost 1/5 what I spent on a NOS Mullard 12AU7
I'm thinking this RCA is a very nice tube
Anyone have any meaningful experience with the RCA 12AU7 clear top they would like to share?
I listen through HD600 cans with Cardas wires
My output tube is a 5998- makes me wonder if there's any $20 output tube that's also very, very nice
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Back in the day of the Foreplay preamp, the RCA cleartop was consistently highly regarded.
There's a thing I've observed over the years, which is often nobody will agree on their favorite tube but most will agree on their second favorite. The RCA cleartop often occupied that "everybody's second best" spot. :^)
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That is an interesting observation. Its also nice to see a highly regarded tube that doesn't cost big bucks, not often that happens.
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That RCA 12au7 clear top is a nice input tube especially in combination with using the HD650's
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The RCA 12AU7 clear top cost me a whopping $12 delivered to me door.
I like there observation- everyone's 2nd favorite tube. The clear top is certainly a very good tube!
I have a NOS GE 6AS7GA on its way in. That was under $20. I'm hoping that's another good and inexpensive find.
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So I got my GE nos 6as7ga. Total investment of that and the RCA 12au7 clear top under $35. A very small bit bright, and not as layered as my Mullard 12au7 and Tung Sol 5998 combo, but damn, great results for less than$35. It's an easy to live with combination
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I have had the Mullard CV4003 paired with my TS 5998 for the last week and I must say that my search for a 12AU7 is over. Its combination of smoothness and transparency can't be beat, IMO. It doesn't take away from all the things the 5998 brings to the table, but rather enhances them. It rounds the edges off the 5998, which sometimes could be bright paired with other tubes. It is a surprisingly quiet tube as well, and allows you to hear through to the recessed layers of tracks. Lovely.
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I have had the Mullard CV4003 paired with my TS 5998 for the last week and I must say that my search for a 12AU7 is over. Its combination of smoothness and transparency can't be beat, IMO. It doesn't take away from all the things the 5998 brings to the table, but rather enhances them. It rounds the edges off the 5998, which sometimes could be bright paired with other tubes. It is a surprisingly quiet tube as well, and allows you to hear through to the recessed layers of tracks. Lovely.
It's one of my favourite combinations as well together with the Bendox6080+RCA 5814A
For Jazz and similar music..the 5998 and Mullards are sublime
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Hi all, wondering what a not expensive alternative for the 6080 tube on the unmodified crack would be??
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Hi all, wondering what a not expensive alternative for the 6080 tube on the unmodified crack would be??
Have a look at the 6as7g types or the Russian Svetlana Winged C 6H13C the latter can often be found as new old stock for under $10 on ebay don't be put off by its low price or that its Russian made as its just capable as tubes costing twice as much.
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Can anyone let me know if theNorthern Electric 6SL7 would work well in the crack?
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Can anyone let me know if theNorthern Electric 6SL7 would work well in the crack?
The 6SL7 would be an equally poor choice for replacing both the 6080 and the 12AU7.
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Have a look at the 6as7g types or the Russian Svetlana Winged C 6H13C the latter can often be found as new old stock for under $10 on ebay don't be put off by its low price or that its Russian made as its just capable as tubes costing twice as much.
I took a gamble a few years back on an "untested" mixed lot of 12 6AS7's on eBay. I paid something like $25 with shipping. I tested them on my B&K 707 when they arrived. All tested at 77 percent or better. A few tested NOS although they were used. I should have enough replacement tubes to last my lifetime. ;D
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What is a good pair of tubes for psychedelic/blues rock, classical, jazz, and the likes. I have an HD600 and will have SB soon. About $90 for both curved power tube and preamp.
Cheers
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What is a good pair of tubes for psychedelic/blues rock, classical, jazz, and the likes. I have an HD600 and will have SB soon. About $90 for both curved power tube and preamp.
Cheers
$90 should see you with a Tung-sol 5998 driver and a E80cc input this would give a very noticeable difference to the stock 6080 or the budget 6as7g's
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Hey all,
So what would the two tube upgrades that first spring to mind when upgrading the stock crack tubes be? Oh, that wouldn't be too expensive btw! The most bang for the buck, or the next step up.
thanks
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Hey all,
So what would the two tube upgrades that first spring to mind when upgrading the stock crack tubes be? Oh, that wouldn't be too expensive btw! The most bang for the buck, or the next step up.
thanks
On the bang for the buck front
For the driver consider a Chatham 6as7g or perhaps a Philco 6as7g the Philco are is said to be made by Amperex and the same as heir own branded 6as7g which sell for four times the price I thought they both sounded better than the RCA and Sylvania 6as7g. I found the Chatham more too my own liking. The Russian Svetlana Winged C 6H13C can often be found as new old stock for under $10 on ebay don't be put off by its low price or that its Russian made as its just capable as tubes costing twice as much.
Input wise the 12au7 RCA clear top is a favourite with many especially if your using HD650's its also inexpensive and is commonly found branded as Conn. Just search on ebay for "12au7 clear top" and you will be spoilt for choice.
By the way there is a dedicated thread for tube rolling with the Crack lots of info on what types works well with different cans and genera's of music its a long thread but worth a read through and the best place to post questions like yours.
http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=663.900
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That's great something to explore!
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I got a 12AU7 Bugle Boy and there was a deep hum in the right earpiece with stock Crack. I was going to return it since neither my stock RCA or cleartop RCA 12AU7s made this noise. Is the Bugle Boy a bad tube or is it on my end, most likely?
Secondly, anyone have issues with the RCA 6AS7G background noise? Mine sounds like a quiet power line. Does it go away with burn in usually? Not a big issue but it is noticeable when I first put the headphone on.
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(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgd1.alicdn.com%2Fimgextra%2Fi1%2F585846110%2FT2z.B6XzRXXXXXXXXX_%21%21585846110.jpg&hash=0e73311e790685504319b05a9f31219ce9d0cc9c)
Saw this on a China website. It converts two 2C22 to 6SN7, I wonder if it can be done on Crack ;) (since people are using 6SN7 on Crack already) Regardless of the sound, it does have an intimidating look.
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I have questions about tube but it's not for the CRACK so pardon me.
Do i need a match pair of tube for the S.E.X.?
Is it important to match the tubes for S.E.X.?
THANK YOU!
You dont "need" matched pairs but it is preferable. Its also very difficult to do as there are two sections per tube so finding a pair that measure the same for each section is rare. Even with half a dozen tubes you will end up making compromises to try and get a fairly even pair so i wouldn't worry about it personally.
Saw this on a China website. It converts two 2C22 to 6SN7, I wonder if it can be done on Crack ;) (since people are using 6SN7 on Crack already) Regardless of the sound, it does have an intimidating look.
Thats a bit fugly looking. Go buy a 6F8G and converter instead, its pretty much an identical tube to a 6SN7, but in a far prettier package.
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THANK YOU!
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Crack with Speedball and HD650 here. I've purchased some Conn 12AU7 clear top. Any suggestions for power tubes? I mainly listen to soundtracks, classical and vocals. In the mean time I'll be going through all 61 pages of this thread lol.
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Chatham 6AS7G,TUNG-SOL 6080(not those graphite plates i can't afford it:) and 6H13C these are my fav.......
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Well, I just couldn't resist any longer.
I replaced the Toshiba 5963 that was included in my kit with a mid 50's CBS Hytron 5814a BP, 2mica with the tilted square getter. I still have the supplied RCA 6080 installed but I replaced the stock signal wire with Cardas 24awg shielded between the RCA's and the pot and 21awg solid silver (from M Percy) for the rest.
It's just been a couple of hours but I'm lovin' it! Great imaging, deep soundstage, fantastic bass, very nice snap, and the highs aren't nearly as forward as with the Toshiba. Very musical!
I almost don't have the heart to try the rest of my stash,.. I said almost.
I'll live with this set up for a while though,.. of course there's that new TKD pot staring me in the face too.
I just have no self control anymore!
I'm a newbie in diy. Just finished build my first diy, crack. After reading this topic, i impress & want to try make some upgrade/changed with yours. So what do you mean by 'stock signal wire'? Is that the red wire? Changed it from rca terminal to potentiometer pot(only)? And 'the rest' is mean the white wire from rca terminal to poteniometer pot? Please help. Thank you
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I've so voided my warranty: All of the signal path wire is multiple-strand silver-plated Teflon mil-spec, the RCA jacks feed the pot via Canare shielded quad, the pot's from DIY-HiFi (their Alps clone), the headphone jack is a Neutrik locking jack, the caps are those huge Axon films, and I've rolled in a RCA 6AS7.
What an amazing amp! Dead quiet, the bass has incredible slam and definition. Brushes against a drumhead are stunning. It does a better job with my HD-650's than my K-702's but not by much. Right now I'm feeding it Apple Lossless via a RWA modified iPod. Blows away my DarkVoice 336 and my Woo Wa3. In fact I just gave the DV to my son-in-law.
Dead simple to build and incredible sound. Doc, you guys rock!
So impresive to hear your modification and its results. Want to try changed the headphone jack, but miss understanding the way you're done. Could you please to help me post a picture. Thank you very much
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I'm running my Crack with a Tung sol 5998 but the stock driver tube. Has anyone have any good suggestions? I'm looking at the 12au7 clear top but was curious about other sound signatures.
Thanks :)
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I'm running my Crack with a Tung sol 5998 but the stock driver tube. Has anyone have any good suggestions? I'm looking at the 12au7 clear top but was curious about other sound signatures.
Thanks :)
The RCA clear top will work well if your using the HD650 but might not suit if your listening with cans that already have a bright signature or a trebly top tend.
What cans are you using? Perhaps we can suggest a few 12au7 options for you to look into further.
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HD650 Jamie, however I'm looking for a brighter and not so bright tube :)
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HD650 Jamie, however I'm looking for a brighter and not so bright tube :)
So RCA clear top, easy to find and cheap if you go for the CONN branded ones.
For a not so bright tube with the 650's look for a Tung-sol JTL 12au7 the earlier the better, one from the 1950's is ideal these are very similar to the Tung-sol 12au7 black glass but less expensive and are nice sounding tubes but still have a slightly brighter presentation which the helps the 650's.
If your running the speedball then the a E80cc is a must try.
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Hi guys, I just noticed that my tube has crack on it, don't know how it came, so I'm looking to replace it with another tube.
Currently I'm running 6080 stock with 12AU7A clear top, Senn 650 and mostly listening to Jazz & Acoustic.
Any recommendation?
Sorry, I'm a dummy, but what does "Test Result" (on eBay) mean?
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Hey.
Anyone have experience with the rca 6as7g black plate clear tops with a mazda 12au7?? Also looking forward to trying my svetlana 6h13c with the rca 12au7 clear top after a recommendation from a previous post!!
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Guys I am using a 12au7. Brand cant figure out.
Maybe a Slyvania JAN CHS 12AU7
So the issue is the tube is working fine when music is on.
But when the music is off,the tube is making grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr noise on the left channel.
Any tips ?
Let me know.
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Guys I am using a 12au7. Brand cant figure out.
Maybe a Slyvania JAN CHS 12AU7
So the issue is the tube is working fine when music is on.
But when the music is off,the tube is making grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr noise on the left channel.
Any tips ?
Let me know.
Make sure the tube pins are nice and clean, remove any oxidization etc. It may just be a noisy tube.
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I found a few 12au7 variants that dont break the bank and might be of interest to Crack owners,
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/310139224510?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/310139224510?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT) RFT from what i have read were made in East Germany, odd looking plates in them but they are astounding good little tubes, nice deep low end extension too.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271159045585?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271159045585?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT) Seller claims they are Brimars which i can believe as i always liked the Brimar ECC82. 13D5A was some weird UK military spec, its a bit like a 5963 or 5814.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5963-12AU7-ECC82-SYLVANIA-SQUARE-GETTER-NOS-TUBE-VALVE-/271428375357?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Valves_Vacuum_Tubes&hash=item3f3264533d (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5963-12AU7-ECC82-SYLVANIA-SQUARE-GETTER-NOS-TUBE-VALVE-/271428375357?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Valves_Vacuum_Tubes&hash=item3f3264533d) My favorite of the murican tubes, i have a few with "US Army" written on them in Gold text, very clean sounding. A close 2nd to them would be the RCA Clear tops.
The same seller also sells Brimar, Mullard, and Telefunken 6211's for as much as those three together. Personally i prefer clean and clear sounding tubes, i actually really dislike the Mullard ECC82 as i find it dull and muddy sounding which the same seller lists at £42. Buy these three instead :)
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I'm listening to Tori Amos "Unrepentant Geraldines" right now on the RFT valve (yes, I couldn't resist) having swapped out my RCA clear top. The power valve is the standard tung sol 6080. Well... the kick drum is really kicking, the bass is throbbing, and it still sounds pleasantly bright which was one of the reasons for using the RCA, to lift the top end a bit on the 650 headphones. So, a good call so far, thank you. 12 quid well spent :)
Paul.
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Hello,
I'm new in to the tubes and Crack world. What do you guys think about this tube?
h ttp://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Western-Electric-421A-5998-STEREO-TUBE-Shorted-/400802730381?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item5d51b4518d
Is this the same tube as a Western Electric 421A???
Is this a good choice? Thanks.
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Avoid. Says it is shorted, so will not work. He's only selling it as a display piece, otherwise it would cost a heck of a lot more.
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Thanks for warning me.
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Those GEC's are exceptionally nice sounding tubes.
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Correct JamieMcC on the GEC 6AS7G.
When I replaced the Mullard 6080WA (rebranded Philips - made in Mullard Mitcham plant) the HD600s came alive and the 4AAs got markedly better.
The combination of the 6AS7G and the Cleartop work well with both of these cans.
If I had a brighter headphone, say a Beyerdynamic, I would probably have to go back to the 6080 or most likely just replace the Cleartop with a Mullard CV4003 to cut back on the top end sparkle of these cans.
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Correct JamieMcC on the GEC 6AS7G.
When I replaced the Mullard 6080WA (rebranded Philips - made in Mullard Mitcham plant) the HD600s came alive and the 4AAs got markedly better.
The combination of the 6AS7G and the Cleartop work well with both of these cans.
If I had a brighter headphone, say a Beyerdynamic, I would probably have to go back to the 6080 or most likely just replace the Cleartop with a Mullard CV4003 to cut back on the top end sparkle of these cans.
I ran the GEC with the Mullard cv4003 for some time its one of my three favourite tubes and a very nice combination with the GEC and my Beyerdynamics. The others being the Tungsram E80cc with the speedball switchable resistor modification and a black glass National Union 6sn7 gtb with a adapter.
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Correct JamieMcC on the GEC 6AS7G.
When I replaced the Mullard 6080WA (rebranded Philips - made in Mullard Mitcham plant) the HD600s came alive and the 4AAs got markedly better.
The combination of the 6AS7G and the Cleartop work well with both of these cans.
If I had a brighter headphone, say a Beyerdynamic, I would probably have to go back to the 6080 or most likely just replace the Cleartop with a Mullard CV4003 to cut back on the top end sparkle of these cans.
It's funny you mention the Cleartop because I have all manner of 12AU7 and always found the clear tops to be not so great in other audio gear, however they are exceptional in the Crack. I am currently running the CV4003 though. But my other Crack has a clear top in it. It a fine synergistic match for some reason or another. Again, not so in other gear.
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i am just wondering, since i am using the crack A LOT now. i'd like to stock up on some stock replacement tubes.
does bottlehead sell them? if not, where are some of the best places to get stock crack tubes.
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For many of us ebay is a endless source of tubes for every budget, just search for "6080 tube" or "6as7g" for the driver tube and "12au7" for the input tube.
Have fun.
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I'll 2nd the eBay suggestion. Tons of tubes on eBay. I have a spare set of tubes and I think I paid between $30 and $35 for both tubes with shipping. My spare input is an RCA clear top and my spare driver is a GE 6 as7g.
But as always, it's buyer beware. One tube I bought for $9 was DOA.
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Another option is to get tubes from a reputable supplier like Brent Jessee (audiotubes dot com). Those are tested and guaranteed not to be DOA. You would be surprised how reasonable the cost is.
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A lot of the dealers also have ebay outlets by the way. Generally I don't buy from anyone with under a 99% feed back rating and I normally check to see what negative feed back was given for.
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Hi there anyone know how a valvo ecc88 will go in the crack replacing a rca cleartop? A TYP : ECC82 12AU7 18mm long Plates 45° D Getter valvo to be precise! Thanks in advance:) oh an ill be using with a svetlana 6h13c btw.
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ECC88 or 82? two very different tubes.
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If you actually mean ECC82, then yes. If you actually mean ECC88 then....Generally, even though the two tubes have a similar base and pin-out arrangements, they are not considered a direct substitutes for each other. The ECC88 heater current is 20% higher, the transconductance nearly 400% higher and the amplification factor is 50% higher, (mu of 33 v. 20). That being said it will probably play without harming the circuit.
PB is the designer and, IMO, best qualified to give a definitive response, since the circuit was not designed for the 6DJ8/6922/ECC88 tubes.
Cheers,
Geary
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Eec 82 sorry yes this won't work in the crack
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ECC82 is euro speak for 12AU7 so it will work fine.
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Concur. I have a Bifrost that I use with my Crack. Stunning sound. Now get you a Western Electric 421A if you want to push it further.
what sort of improvement will i see with a WE 421ZA?
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I've got a Crack on order. What tubes will sound best with the HD600s?
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I've got a Crack on order. What tubes will sound best with the HD600s?
I would see how you like the stock ones first, then if you want to tweak the presentation we could off suggestions. The stock tubes you receive with kit are a bit of a lucky dip.
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Guys I just scored some Amperex bugleboys on ebay.Can you please check them out and tell me if these are the same "much talked" about 12au7 bugleboys. I was just fooling around ebay and placed a cheeky bid on one of them and the seller accepted . Now I am in a dilemma of whether it will be worth it to buy them.
Current tubes :-
Sylvania JAN-CHS 12au7
Westinghouse 12au7 no: 337
BEL 12au7 [indian tube]
Tungsol black bottle/glass
Links of the Amperex bugleboys :-
//http://www.ebay.in/itm/AMPEREX-ECC82-BUGLE-BOY-HOLLAND-12AU7-PERFECT-BALANCE-SMALL-LOGO-VINTAGE-1959-/331395728784?ssPageName=ADME:L:COSI:IN:1123
///http://www.ebay.in/itm/AMPEREX-ECC82-HOLLAND-12AU7-K64-FOIL-GETR-LONG-PLATE-VINTAGE-1958-BUGLE-BOY-/331397907294?ssPageName=ADME:L:COSI:IN:1123
Do check the above links and let me know if I should go ahead with the deal.
Cheers.
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I would see how you like the stock ones first, then if you want to tweak the presentation we could off suggestions. The stock tubes you receive with kit are a bit of a lucky dip.
Really? So the kits can come with different tubes, depending on what's in stock?
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Yes, some kits have even shipped with Amperex and Mullard 12AU7's.
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Hi! Few quick question.
I know that there has been many talk about mod to use E80CC tube in crack, but I ordered a E80CC tube and a speedball few days a go. Tube will arrive next week and speedball will arrive in January I guess, so my question is. Can I use E80CC tube in my un-modified crack (5998 as output tube) until my speedball arrives or just to test it for a evening? I just dont want to ruin anything in my crack, but my CBS5814A broke to pieces yesterday and this rca 12au7 that came with my crack is very microphonic and it is not nice to use it.
And my 5998 tube is making some high pitch squeal/whistle. When I tap on the tube, it goes away. All voltages etc are correct. I resoldered every joint and nothing changed. This sound appears about 30min after turning amp on. Is it common with tubes that they can produce such a high pitch sound and can it mess something up in my Crack? Can anything else cause this high pitch sound?
Thanks!
EDIT: Made a video about the squeal with my phone. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jp7yqqHaapk&list=UUWtiH_7yoxsoY6E6k1UKMpQ
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Yes, the E80CC will work in the stock circuit, it just isn't optimized for that particular tube.
-PB
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what sort of improvement will i see with a WE 421ZA?
It's considered to be the Cadillac of the 6080 types. Some folks prefer the Chatham 5998. I have both and prefer the WE421A although I have to say this and I may be crazy but one of my Cracks has a JAN 6080 that looks like it went through a war and it may be the best sounding one I have.
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Hi does anyone know anything about this tube? ECC82 12AU7 18mm long Plates 45° D Getter, and how it would sound in the crack?
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Hi does anyone know anything about this tube? ECC82 12AU7 18mm long Plates 45° D Getter, and how it would sound in the crack?
That could probably be anything. Is there any acid etching on the glass? Can you post a couple photos of the tube?
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It's a valvo on eBay at the moment
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Can anyone tell me the sound characteristics of the svetlana 6h13c? Just started using on over the stock 6080 in conjunction with an rca cleartop and the sound seems warmer and fuller.
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Can anyone tell me the sound characteristics of the svetlana 6h13c? Just started using on over the stock 6080 in conjunction with an rca cleartop and the sound seems warmer and fuller.
Shhh or every one will want one and soon you wont be able to find them under $10 each NOS try it paired with a E80cc up front ;)
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Hehehe...ok mums the word👼👼👼
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Actually would this e80 cc work in the crack I've read somewhere that it's not advisable to use. Too much heat generation?
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Actually would this e80 cc work in the crack I've read somewhere that it's not advisable to use. Too much heat generation?
From the horses mouth
Yes, the E80CC will work in the stock circuit, it just isn't optimized for that particular tube.
-PB
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http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5-x-CV491-ECC82-Electron-tubes-high-spec-Unusual-with-blue-print-/151506812480?ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:IE:3160 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5-x-CV491-ECC82-Electron-tubes-high-spec-Unusual-with-blue-print-/151506812480?ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:IE:3160)
Another source for RFT tubes, this time in a military guise. I believe the CV491 designation was for tubes that were subject to stringent testing. I already bought a set of these and they all tested exactly the same.
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Hey guys, I'm struggling to find the right driver tube to complement my hd800. Currently using the ts5998 which I love. The stock drive tube was noisy. Then I tried some RCA and Conn clear tops. They didn't do much for me. I'm looking for a lusher sound and a little more bass.
Suggestions are appreciated.
thanks...
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I have DT880's which are considered bright.
Right now I am using a 2399 (basically a 5998) and a Mullard CV4002 which is the equivalent to a 12au7. Mullards are known to tone down the bright. Might be worth a shot!
Take care...DAve
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Hi! Few quick question.
I know that there has been many talk about mod to use E80CC tube in crack, but I ordered a E80CC tube and a speedball few days a go. Tube will arrive next week and speedball will arrive in January I guess, so my question is. Can I use E80CC tube in my un-modified crack (5998 as output tube) until my speedball arrives or just to test it for a evening? I just dont want to ruin anything in my crack, but my CBS5814A broke to pieces yesterday and this rca 12au7 that came with my crack is very microphonic and it is not nice to use it.
And my 5998 tube is making some high pitch squeal/whistle. When I tap on the tube, it goes away. All voltages etc are correct. I resoldered every joint and nothing changed. This sound appears about 30min after turning amp on. Is it common with tubes that they can produce such a high pitch sound and can it mess something up in my Crack? Can anything else cause this high pitch sound?
Thanks!
EDIT: Made a video about the squeal with my phone. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jp7yqqHaapk&list=UUWtiH_7yoxsoY6E6k1UKMpQ
A little update: It is not the tube. I put my GE 6AS7GA tube in again and have been listening for a few hours. It makes the noise too, slightly different from 5998 but still. If I tap on the tube then it goes silent and then starts again. This mystery sound is only heard in left channel. What component in Crack could make the output tube to sqeal? All ideas welcome. Thanks!
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Since it is responsive to tapping on the tube but is not specific to a tube I would wonder about the solder on the tube socket and reflow all the pin connectors.
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Since it is responsive to tapping on the tube but is not specific to a tube I would wonder about the solder on the tube socket and reflow all the pin connectors.
I will resolder all pin connectors tomorrow. I bought two new sockets (same that comes with crack) and I will replace the tube socket when they arrive. Just to see if that changes anything. New clean solderjoints to all pins.
Small update: If I unplug headphones and plug them in again, it goes quiet and then in some time it starts again. That headphones out and in works everytime.
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Hey guys, I'm struggling to find the right driver tube to complement my hd800. Currently using the ts5998 which I love. The stock drive tube was noisy. Then I tried some RCA and Conn clear tops. They didn't do much for me. I'm looking for a lusher sound and a little more bass.
Suggestions are appreciated.
thanks...
How bout a less resolving tube that's orientated towards warmth? I found the TS5998 to be sibilant at times with a wrong combination of input tube and headphones so less high end, less resolving, more bass does the trick. Problem is there aren't many tubes that fit your bill other than the Sylvania GB6080 and the Bendix 6080WB
If you can get a Bendix tube it might just do the trick. It's a superior tube to the 5998 with tighter bass and faster pace overall
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2 years later, all them tubes are extinct or prices just inflated real bad...
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They still come up on ebay from time to time. The tier 1 tubes are silly money, and over rated IMO. Buy a Sylvania Gold brand or Valvo 6080, or a Russian 6H13C and your 90% there for $20.
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2 years later, all them tubes are extinct or prices just inflated real bad...
Welcome to my world. Before you talk something up on the Internet make sure you own most of them. When we started Tape Project a Technics RS1500 was worth about $250. A year later you could sell them all day long for $1200. I wasn't smart enough to buy every one I could find before we started.
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Compared to many hobbies a tube here and there really isn't to bad. Finding a 60 year old tube that still works and sounds great is also lot of fun for relatively small beer.
I don't want to think about how much the other half spends getting her hair done!
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Hi guys,
How does the Chatham 6AS7G sound with the Crack? Also, thinking about getting the Mullard ECC82 Re-issue from Tube Store dot com or the Valvo ECC82 on eBay. Do these two tubes go well together? Your thoughts are much appreciated. Thanks
Jimb0
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picked up pair of Bendix 6080WB's, one of them has an audible "tick" sound inside of it that happens every 2-5 seconds (keeps ticking until it cools off after i take it out too) and it's driving me nuts. is it a bad tube? anything that can be done?
oh good and the other one i can't even type on my keyboard without getting microphonics through the right channel.
gotta love ebay.
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picked up pair of Bendix 6080WB's, one of them has an audible "tick" sound inside of it that happens every 2-5 seconds (keeps ticking until it cools off after i take it out too) and it's driving me nuts. is it a bad tube? anything that can be done?
oh good and the other one i can't even type on my keyboard without getting microphonics through the right channel.
gotta love ebay.
I have had a brought a few nos graphite plate tubes in the past most have suffered from pops and ticks. I left mine running for a couple of days straight with a old pair of phones I use for testing and they have settle down with running in. I also brought a bunch of used ones from equipment pulls they all tested at nos level and all of them ran nice and quiet.
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The ticking sound could be the glass heating up. On tubes with very thick glass, this can take a long time (an hour or so on 6C33' in my experience).
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Can anyone confirm if this is the Mullard CV 4003 Box Plate?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MULLARD-NOS-NIB-CV4003-12AU7A-TUBES-/400784606401?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d509fc4c1
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Yes, it is. That is a pretty reasonable price as well.
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Yes, it is. That is a pretty reasonable price as well.
Thanks Paul,
Also,
I've read up on 12BH7's as being superior to 12AU7's. I'd like to try them both to compare the two tubes. Can anyone recommend a good 12BH7 tube? I'm looking at the Vintage CBS 12BH7 Black Plates on eBay right now for around $30. Is this a good deal?
Btw, I have Crack+Speedball and running on HD650's.
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Yes, it is. That is a pretty reasonable price as well.
Man, I am out of touch. I remember when they were more like $15. Of course I also remember when guys used to drive to my house with truckloads of tubes and ask me to take them.
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I've read up on 12BH7's as being superior to 12AU7's. I'd like to try them both to compare the two tubes.
It appears that the 12BH7 will need to run more current than a 12AU7 to properly bias the output stage in the Crack.
-PB
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Just bought some Svetlana Winged C 6h13c tubes from Russia on eBay and I'm stunned and amazed. I have the Chatham 5998 and Western Electric 421A and I think I've just struck gold and at $10 a pop I just don't think anyone can go wrong. They are a tad brighter than 5598 Chatham and WE421A but I like bright.
I'm buying a stash of these things.
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Just bought some Svetlana Winged C 6h13c tubes from Russia on eBay and I'm stunned and amazed. I have the Chatham 5998 and Western Electric 421A and I think I've just struck gold and at $10 a pop I just don't think anyone can go wrong. They are a tad brighter than 5598 Chatham and WE421A but I like bright.
I'm buying a stash of these things.
I'm going to somewhat retract this statement. Left the Crack on all night and started listening again and it sounds flat now. A good tube but not a great tube. Lots of things are bright and airy when new and then settle in. This settled in a lot.
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Hi all, had the crack over a year but new to forum(s). I've read this whole thread, very informative, but none of the links work about modding to use a 6dj8 or 12ax7 or whatever. Supposedly can be done and have a toggle switch? sounds yummy as I have a bunch of 6922 and equivalents. Should I start a new topic? Seems a lot of good modding posts have been lost. Sorry if this is out of place and thanks for any help.
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From the Crack FAQ:
Can I use a 12AX7, 12AT7, 6922, 12AV7, etc. in my Crack in place of the 12AU7?
Interestingly enough, the original 3-4 Cracks used higher gain tubes like these, but they are far too sensitive for this circuit, and you may only end up being able to use a small portion of the volume control's rotation before you attain maximum output power of the amplifier (referred to as "hair trigger" level control).
Maybe you were looking for something like this:
http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=5989.0 (http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=5989.0)
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Thanks for the quick response but no I'm wanting to have the one 9 pin socket and use it for the different types. I have a project sunrise and all I have to do is change a jumper and I can use virtually any 6 and 12 volt 9 pin tubes, bias adjustment necessary of course. Nikolay from tubemaze told me his crack is modded in this fashion but I can't get anything on the search. Just don't want to start a new thread if I shouldn't. Like I said I'm new to this forum stuff.
Edit: should prob note that my crack is stock and I plan to keep it that way, no speedball for me. I have alot of tubes and enjoy rolling. I've heard speedball makes these changes less apparent. I'll keep looking....
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As is mentioned in the FAQ, you'll need to switch a lot more to use higher gain tubes. With something like a 12AX7, assuming you have the Speedball and have modified it for the 12AX7, you would want 30dB of padding at the input of the Crack.
Without the Speedball, you can't get enough loading resistance to use something like a 12AX7 or 12AT7. You might be able to switch the heaters around to use a 6922, which should bias up around 70V on the plate with the stock circuit, and I believe the 6CG7 would work at that point too.
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Yes, the 6922 is my main concern. I have some 68 teles that I wanna put in the crack, among others.
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If you re-wire the heater for 6922 and leave pin 9 unused, you can sub a 6AU7 with no changes. Nobody wants a 6AU7, they all want the 12AU7, but it's the same tube except for heater voltage. Just a thought. :^)
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Yes, the 6922 is my main concern. I have some 68 teles that I wanna put in the crack, among others.
If you do this, be aware that they have roughly twice the voltage gain of the 12AU7. You will certainly have the hair trigger volume control issue with the 6922 unless a lot of padding is used.
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Bummer. Don't think me skills are up to that. Thanks for the info. Just have to keep the sunrise around ;)
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Hi.
Is this the same tube as Tung-sol 5998? If not how does it sound compared to TS5998? Thank you.
h ttp://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-Tung-Sol-6520-Tube-USA-5998-type-/141533110716?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item20f407e1bc
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Unfortunately it is not the same tube the 5998 types have a domino pattern on their plates.
It looks like a regular Tung-sol 6as7g which are often found branded as Chatham they are nice sounding tubes they normally go for $20 for a strong testing. I would pass on this one due to the low test results.
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I looked into 6520's before and couldn't find any datasheets, seems to be an obscurity like the 2399. I've read suggestions they are just another tightly matched/tested 6AS7G but i have found what looks like 5998's labelled as 6520's so that contradicts that theory.
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I bought a TS 5998 from vacuumtubes.net in Florida about a month ago and received a Chatham branded 2399. The plates have the domino pattern and while I don't have a TS labeled 5998 for comparison, I prefer the sound of this tube to the Russian military 6AS7 winged "C".
Clearly, the seller seems to think that the 2399 is equivalent to a 5998. According to a report on tube maze the difference is that the 2399 has copper grid rods but the sound is identical.
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I looked into 6520's before and couldn't find any datasheets, seems to be an obscurity like the 2399. I've read suggestions they are just another tightly matched/tested 6AS7G
This is exactly what the datasheet specifies. They also have much higher heater to cathode insulation ratings, which are already much higher than the Crack requires.
-PB
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A ha so it does. Don't know why i couldn't find that datasheet before. Attached is a pic of the 6520 that got my curiosity, is it an uber spec 5998, or a 6AS7G using the 5998 plate structure?
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I wonder if it might be similar to a WE422a looking at the structure it doesn't look so?
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.che.ncku.edu.tw%2FFacultyWeb%2FChengCY%2FZatu%2FWE274422.jpg&hash=a5b085aba5f7ec1d652dc3300489698302ea8ec8)
http://www.the-planet.org/pdf/WE422A.pdf
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6520 is a 6AS7 with matched sections and high reliability.
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What do you guys think about the Tesla 12AU7?
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Still messing around with these Svetlana Winged C 6H13C. Usually I just give up on a tube when I don't like it's sound. One thing I noticed was my 12AU7 installed was a clear top. I replaced it with a Mullard Box Plate CV4003 and then just left the amp on for a couple days.
Things are much improved. Thinking about just leaving this tube in to save my highly overpriced Western Electric 421A. Recently lost a metal base 5AR4 on another amp that would cost a bundle to replace. I really need to get used to listening to newer production tubes and quit playing around spending money on uber tubes.
This Winged C is good enough with burn in and a good companion 12AU7 tube.
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That's interesting John. I also put the Svetlana Winged C back in replacing the Chatham 2399. It is paired with a Mullard CV4003 and find it is sounding more mellow but still very pleasing.
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If you have the E80cc its a nice pairing with the Svetlana Winged C 6H13C
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I don't have any E80cc but have some Mazda/Cifte and Radiotechnique 12AU7s. Given the more mellow presentation of the Svetlana Winged C it may be a nice combo since I find those 12AU7s livelier than the Mullard. I'll have to try.
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I just finished my amp build about week go and recently added Speedball. I am simply blown away by the performance of my 650's
Obviously now I have an appetite to experiment further! my kit originally comes with the 6080
can anyone comment on their experience with replacing the 6080 with any of the ones below:
6AS7G
6H13C
5998
7236
6N13
All comments welcome and thank you in advance!
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I have the stock 6080 plus a 6as7ga and a 5998. I listen mostly via the 5998.
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I am wondering about my tubes. Pre Speedball I ran Tung Sol 5998 and Mullard 12au7. By all accounts fine NOS tubes.
Now with the speedball, the bass is clearly better. Yet I'm also thinking that the overall presentation got a touch brighter too-
I substituted the 5998 with a nos GE 6as7ga I have and in fact the slight brightness I not on the crack/speedball/5998 isn't their. And the 5998 is a lovely tube- maybe it's the Mullard I'm hearing? I have an RCA clear top but that tube is a touch bright to start with so I wasn't going to throw that into the mix.
Pre Speedball, the 5998/12au7 combo was superb. What do people use with the speedball?
By the way, I have perhaps 1 hour of listening time on the speedball, so maybe it's still pretty green.
Thanks all!
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Hi Nathan,
I'm using the Tung Sol 5998 as well with Amperex Bugle Boys 12au7's and CBS Hytron 5814's. I've been very happy with both so far. I cannot comment no the Mullard's as I have not heard them.
Have you considered retrofitting the input tube so you can use other tubes like the 12BH7/5687/7119's. A few Crack users here say it is a far better sounding tube than the 12au7's. I'm looking into modding mine for those specific tubes.
EDIT: Btw, I've never had any problems with the brightness on both Amperex BB's and the CBS Hytron's.
Jim
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I'm considering a 12bh7, particularly since with the Speedball, it's a straight swap
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I do not believe it is a straight swap, as the plate voltage would be low(terminals 1 and 5), there is a thread on retrofitting for the 12bh7, E80CC...
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I'm considering a 12bh7, particularly since with the Speedball, it's a straight swap
Yes, you'll need to do some modding in order for the 12BH7 to run at the proper voltages.
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Built the Crack about two weeks ago. Went shopping in Tokyo today, and picked up a few goodies. My first foray into tube rolling.
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Built the Crack about two weeks ago. Went shopping in Tokyo today, and picked up a few goodies. My first foray into tube rolling.
Very nice Rocketman! Welcome to the club! Hope you are enjoying your music :)
Jim
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I recently finished my Crack and want to try out some other tubes. What are the most reliable places to buy tubes online? Also, would something like a 5814A and 5998A be a good start? Having no experience with tube amps other than the Crack, I feel a little in the dark regarding how much of a difference I can expect from different tubes and what a reasonable amount to spend on a tube is (there appears to be a huge price range for seemingly similar tubes).
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Built the Crack about two weeks ago. Went shopping in Tokyo today, and picked up a few goodies. My first foray into tube rolling.
I have a 6as7ga- it's a very good tube!
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I recently finished my Crack and want to try out some other tubes. What are the most reliable places to buy tubes online? Also, would something like a 5814A and 5998A be a good start? Having no experience with tube amps other than the Crack, I feel a little in the dark regarding how much of a difference I can expect from different tubes and what a reasonable amount to spend on a tube is (there appears to be a huge price range for seemingly similar tubes).
I have purchased tubes from vacuumtubes.net and would recommend them. i believe they currently have the 5998 for $85. it might sound expensive but look at the prices of 300Bs! You might receive a 2399 instead of a 5998 but they are the same. I have other tubes and would recommend not to buy a lot to try instead put the money towards a 5998. As for the 12au7 tubes it depends on what you like and the type of headphones you will be using!
Enjoy the process. It is extremely fun and satisfying!....Dave
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The 12au7s I like the most so far in my crack/SB are the Mullard (CV4003 - military version) and the Radiotechnique (French military version) that I obtained from Upscale Audio. I have found Upscale to be a very reliable tube seller.
I also use the 5998 (actually 2399) and the Russian "winged C" 6H13C.
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Just got my russian winged C 6H13C and Gold Lion ECC82 ...man what can I say. The sound stage feels much wider, the base tighter and it is extremely neutral with an added clarity.
I added a dedicated DAC (Schiit Modi) instead of the Fiio E10 I was using and I have to say it feels cleaner. Only problem is prying myself away from the music :)
Thinking about ordering the 5998 from vacuumtubes.net
I highly recommend thetubestore.com, they are Canadian. Tubes arrived 2 days after I ordered them.
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Built the Crack about two weeks ago. Went shopping in Tokyo today, and picked up a few goodies. My first foray into tube rolling.
Love that modi in the background ;)
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I recently finished my Crack and want to try out some other tubes. What are the most reliable places to buy tubes online? Also, would something like a 5814A and 5998A be a good start? Having no experience with tube amps other than the Crack, I feel a little in the dark regarding how much of a difference I can expect from different tubes and what a reasonable amount to spend on a tube is (there appears to be a huge price range for seemingly similar tubes).
Hi Adelz,
Yes those are actually some great tubes. Try the Tung Sol 5998's from vacuumtubes.net for $85 (Cheapest price online) and the CBS "JHY" Hytron 5814a. You will be wowed by the combination.
I actually have a question to you CBS Hytron 5814a owners. Is there a difference between the newer JHY version and the vintage one?
Here are two links to the new one and the old one.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/PAIR-CBS-HYTRON-JHY-5814a-BEST-12AU7-Made-Blk-Plt-D-Getter-Vacuum-Tubes-8-V54-/231451459914?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35e395014a
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-CBS-Hytron-JHY-5814-12au7-ECC82-BLACK-plates-tube-Test-NOS-/171631998987?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item27f610780b
I'm curious to know if they will provide a different sound as they look very similar with flat black plates and "D" getter.
Thanks!
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Just got my russian winged C 6H13C and Gold Lion ECC82 ...man what can I say. The sound stage feels much wider, the base tighter and it is extremely neutral with an added clarity.
I added a dedicated DAC (Schiit Modi) instead of the Fiio E10 I was using and I have to say it feels cleaner. Only problem is prying myself away from the music :)
Thinking about ordering the 5998 from vacuumtubes.net
I highly recommend thetubestore.com, they are Canadian. Tubes arrived 2 days after I ordered them.
Those are two tubes I've never heard about. How can you compare them with the more mainstream ones like the Mullard, Bugle Boys 12au7's or the CBS/Hytron's 5814a's?
I know that feeling. The Crack made my cans sound so good I am rooted to them for good :D
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Hey Jimbo,
The combination is great. I highly recommend the Gold Lion ECC82, it is a bit pricey ($43) but the base seems very clean and tight, the stage much wider, the sound feels more immersing with more neutrality and detail. I listen to Jazz, blues and progressive trance. I am excited to try it with 5998
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So, I'm not going to lie. I honestly thought that tube rolling was going to be a whole lot of smoke, mirrors, and snake oil. I didn't think that there would be an appreciable difference in sound, especially to my untrained, non-audiophile ears. I'm happy to report that I was wrong. First thing I did when I got back from buying those tubes was listen to the stock tubes for about an hour, listening to a variety of genres. Then I let it cool down and popped in the RCA 5814A. There was an immediate boost in the bass, and a nice boost in the overall body of the sound. I spent another hour listening to the same genres, and I was loving what I was hearing. Then I put the GE 6AS7GA in and it tamed some of the boominess, and tightened everything up. All of this was initial improvements. Now I'll have to see if the whole burn-in thing exists. :)
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I got a wonderfully sounding Mullard CV4003 from Upscale Audio:
http://www.upscaleaudio.com/all-products/ (http://www.upscaleaudio.com/all-products/)
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Hey, thanks for all of the advice. I think I'm going to go with the Tung Sol 5998 available on vacuumtubes.net and either the CBS Hytron 5814A or Mullard CV4003. How do those two input tubes compare?
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Alright, so my Crack isn't even fully built yet, but I'm curious about cheap options for tube rolling. I have HD600s with Cardas cable. My kit came with RCA 6080 and a 12AU7 I can't identify (it has a sticker with 97/97 on it). I can't spend much, but would like to know what's out there in the budget price range that would complement my HD600s. I listen to all genres.
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I would go with a 5998 tube for $85.....or if that is too much an RCA 6AS7G but the 5998 is much better.
A lot of people go with an RCA Clear Top 12AU7 that have the HD 600 AND hd650 to lift the veil.
try a bunch and see what you think.
...Dave
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Has anyone ever bought from vacuumtubes.net? I filled in an order form for a 5998 but it just leads to a confirmation page but nothing else, they didn't take payment details or send an email to confirm, should I be waiting for something?
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I bought my 5998 from them but I ordered by phone. They shipped quickly and the tube is great. So, I'd give them a call.
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Has anyone ever bought from vacuumtubes.net? I filled in an order form for a 5998 but it just leads to a confirmation page but nothing else, they didn't take payment details or send an email to confirm, should I be waiting for something?
I ordered the 5998 Tung Sol's using their form. They're very legit and I got the Tube less than a week later. You will receive the confirmation e-mail either the same day or the next. They're not quite up to date on the instant confirmation e-mail receipt yet. They are 100% legit though and probably one of the best sellers for tubes online.
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I 2nd jimbo's post. Vacuumtubes.net are great. In Canada I recevied my tubes 6 or 7 business days later.
Take care...Dave
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Alright, seems the 5998s are universally liked.
One vote for the RCA Clear Top 12AU7 for HD600s. Any others?
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vaccumtubes.net are great! I spoke with them on the phone. Once you get a confirmation page, it does take them 48 hours to send you a bill or charge you. Reason being is that they verify they have the tube on hand and extensively test it so there are no issues once you receive it. Their prices are also among the best on the net.
Simply a pleasure to deal with
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Alright, seems the 5998s are universally liked.
One vote for the RCA Clear Top 12AU7 for HD600s. Any others?
I have a Chatham 5998 and I for the life of me don't like it anymore. Although I do concur with you that for some reason the relatively low end RCA Clear Top is a perfect fit in the Crack circuit. That and the Mullard CV4003.
I put my 5998 in yesterday and tried to listen and I couldn't stand it. My Winged C Svetlana sounds better to my ears. My 5998 tests strong as well on my TV-7 tester.
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The Winged C Svetlana seem to be much cheaper, too. There's a pair going for $30 on ebay right now. Anyone want to split that with me?
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I have a Chatham 5998 and I for the life of me don't like it anymore. Although I do concur with you that for some reason the relatively low end RCA Clear Top is a perfect fit in the Crack circuit. That and the Mullard CV4003.
I put my 5998 in yesterday and tried to listen and I couldn't stand it. My Winged C Svetlana sounds better to my ears. My 5998 tests strong as well on my TV-7 tester.
What do you have in the input with the 5998's? The Winged C Svetlana sounds interesting. How can you compare them to the 5998's?
Jim
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What do you have in the input with the 5998's? The Winged C Svetlana sounds interesting. How can you compare them to the 5998's?
Jim
Mullard CV4003. I got two Winged C's on eBay for $20 recently. I really don't like the sound of the 5998, however I LOVE the sound of my Western Electric 421A.
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Mullard CV4003. I got two Winged C's on eBay for $20 recently. I really don't like the sound of the 5998, however I LOVE the sound of my Western Electric 421A.
Never heard the CV4003's before. Have you tried pairing them with a different input tube? The 5998 sound wonderful with CBS Hytron 5814a's.
What sound qualities did you dislike about the 5998 that the Winged C provides?
I hope you LOVE the WE 421A! If I were to spend that much on a tube I hope to fall head over heels on them ;D
Jim
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This tube gets a double thumbs up!
So, to date- here's the whole deal
HD600's with Cardas cable
Crack with Speedball
Padded down volume control
Teflon caps to bypass audio caps
Last power supply cap bypassed with Mundorf film cap
Diy power cable- Belden 19364 with Wattgate male plug and Schurter right angle iec
Cardas input jacks
Tubes are the CV4003 and a 5998
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The Mullard CV4003 is one of the few 12au7 I have kept. Its a nice tube
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Can someone with experience with tubes comment on which would be a better tube paired with a 5998:
- 12au7 RCA Clear Top
-12au7 Mullard
Thanks.
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Can someone with experience with tubes comment on which would be a better tube paired with a 5998:
- 12au7 RCA Clear Top
-12au7 Mullard
Which Mullard? There are several variants.
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Which Mullard? There are several variants.
12au7 Mullard B Code
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Can someone with experience with tubes comment on which would be a better tube paired with a 5998:
- 12au7 RCA Clear Top
-12au7 Mullard
Thanks.
Mullard- but if I couldn't get a Mullard an RCA clear top is my 2nd choice. The best Mullard imo is a CV4003 which is a military version of a 12au7. Clear tops are available inexpensively.
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Another tube that works with the CRACK is the C3g.
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How would you compare them to lets say the 5998?
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Another tube that works with the CRACK is the C3g.
No.
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Here are a couple valve combinations I've found enjoyable:
Mullard 6080 (rebranded Phillips - Mitcham Plant) with Mullard CV4003 (military) - very good with Beyerdynamic HPs.
GEC 6as7G with RCA 12AU7 Cleartop - excellent with HD600s (the Cleartop adds a little "sparkle" to the top end).
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Very nice tubes Adrian. Been dreaming about owning the GEC 6AS7G one day.
I wonder how those would sound with the 7119's. I can only imagine. :)
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How would you compare them to lets say the 5998?
I don't think if that is possible i used the C3g to replaced the 12AU7.
Sorry!
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Hi Paul,
Since i don't understand much about electronics i can't explain why the C3g's are working well with the CRACK.
I used it to replaced the 12AU7.I really like the sound of these tubes,Someone mention that the C3g have more gain than the 12AU7 Is there any MOD i can do to run the C3g efficient?
THANKS!
(https://www.head-fi.org/image/id/6965638/width/900/height/900/flags/LL)
(https://www.head-fi.org/image/id/6965650/width/900/height/900/flags/LL)
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.head-fi.org%2F1%2F16%2F900x900px-LL-16d4d0bd_DSC_3897.jpeg&hash=0b11c3980ad422c55f93fe0514d3f6c9f2d56260)
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The C3G is a pentode in a different base. To adapt one for use in a Crack, you would have to build that adapter and triode strap the tube. Adapters are notorious for being noisy and unreliable, and when you have loose wires going into pins, somewhat dangerous.
In the Crack circuit, two C3G's in place of the 12AU7 will not hit the target plate voltage, and will lead to excessive dissipation in the output stage's loading devices.
-PB
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The C3G is a pentode in a different base. To adapt one for use in a Crack, you would have to build that adapter and triode strap the tube. Adapters are notorious for being noisy and unreliable, and when you have loose wires going into pins, somewhat dangerous.
In the Crack circuit, two C3G's in place of the 12AU7 will not hit the target plate voltage, and will lead to excessive dissipation in the output stage's loading devices.
-PB
Hi,
Thanks for your reply!Both tubes are strapped and so far they are quiet no hum at all.Is there anything i can do to hit the target plate voltage?
Thanks!
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So I finished building my BH Crack 3 weeks ago and I'm going to install the Speedball soon as well as interested in upgrading the stock tubes.
I don't really want to change any circuitry either to accommodate new tubes...unless its absolutely worth it cause I WILL be attaching the speedball anyway so I could do it at the same time.
I have HD650's and mostly listen to harder rock (ambient music and classical are up there also)
In the limited research I've done I've seen the NOS RCA 12AU7 Clear Top, Tung Sol 5998 and CV4003 Mullard mentioned a decent amount.
Recommendations anyone? Thanks.
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All of those are good tubes and what most people would recommend. I would check out the JHY-CBS Hytron 5814a's as well. They are a variant of the 12AU7 and you do not need to modify anything to use them. One of the best I've heard paired with the Tung Sol 5998. Great separation of instruments, warmth, good sound stage, and clarity. The JHY-CBS Hytron 5814 are also much cheaper than the Mullard's (I can't compare the two because I haven't heard the Mullard's although I've heard they sound better than them). Make sure you get the one with flat black plates as those sound the best. These are the ones listed on eBay.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HYTRON-JHY5814-12AU7-ECC82-6189-NOS-1950-BLACK-PLATE-TUBE-D-GETTER-/161549676801?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item259d1c7101
http://www.ebay.com/itm/PAIR-CBS-HYTRON-JHY-5814a-BEST-12AU7-Made-Blk-Plt-D-Getter-Vacuum-Tubes-8-V54-/231451459914?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35e395014a
There's also this vintage one which is more expensive but I'm not sure if you'll get a better sound. All have flat black plates.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-CBS-Hytron-JHY-5814-12au7-ECC82-BLACK-plates-tube-Test-NOS-/171631998987?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item27f610780b
The other 12AU7 I tried were the Amperex Bugle Boys (very sweet, vintage sound) which also sounds great with the Tung Sol 5998 but the CBS Hytron 5814a's takes the cake.
James
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$50 for the CBS 5814 is insane. We shipped many of that exact tube in Crack kits last year.
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I know Paul. Most of highly sought after tubes are marked up so high these days. :-\
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Like Uber's "surge pricing"... fashion has its costs!
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Like with a lot of things the people who are ignorant about how this stuff works are paying the stupid money. There are lots of good sounding tubes out there and the "best" ones are seldom 10-100X better than the next one down the ranks. I could have taken advantage many, many times over on this front. But it kind of grates to see guys jack prices for tubes that weren't worth shit before we or someone else made an amp that uses them.
We have conversations every so often that go something like "lets buy all of the 6whateverKs in the world for 50 cents each, and make a $99 amp that can only use four of them and no other tube will work. Then we sell 'select polytonic transgender lofi upgrade tubes from the Stechner-Weissen radar and lawnmower factory (palladium pins, rhombic deuterium plates, 13.5 micas, kanji getters)' for $250 each."
My advice is listen to a tube before you pay big money. Some of the higher priced stuff is good, and some is just not worth it.
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Man I have been looking for those Kanji getters forever, sure you wont sell me a pair?
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Hi all,
many times I did tube rolling with different makes and models of tubes for my Crack
and all times I was wondering if my soon to be 67 years old ears
where responsible for not been able to ear big differences
between different makes - models of tubes.
With my Crack (6AS7G-6080/12AU7), Decware SE84C+ (5AR4-5U4/6922/EL84)
and Bellari VP-129 (12AX7) I never pay more than 35 USD each and most of the time,
the price I pay for one tube is 15 - 24 USD.
I will never pay more than 50 USD for a tube,
regardless of what the reviews by customers says.
Paying 250 USD for a (Rare or not) tubes is good, yes, it's good,
if you don't know what to do with your money or if you think it's worth,
until you find out it was not worth...
It's my opinion and you don't have to agree with it. ;D
Guy 13
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Hey, I'm finally getting around to buying some new tubes for my Crack. Before I buy, I was wondering if this listing on Ebay would be a wise purchase; how do I get the ability to post links in this forum? Thanks!
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You can post links by cutting from the browser and pasting in your post.
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mullard-12AU7-double-triode-Vacuum-Tube-CV4003-ECC83-/271757525740 Here is the link. Upon having it in my post earlier an error popped up saying that I did not have permission to post links.
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Question regarding the Tung Sol 5998.
I read that the Tung Sol 5998 is a great tube and often recommended but also read somewhere, maybe it was Doc B on another forum that the specs are slightly different but still works fine in the Crack. What difference if any does the 5998 make in the Crack and is it because the specs are slightly different that causes the change in sound?
I am able to get my hands on a 1957 Tung Sol 5998 right now but it's around $100 so I was wondering if its even worth bothering with since it seems input tubes seem to make the most difference based on most user opinions.
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What difference if any does the 5998 make in the Crack and is it because the specs are slightly different that causes the change in sound?
The 5998 generally speaking has more transconductance than the 6080. In the Crack circuit, you'll get slightly lower output impedance. On the other hand, the insulation of the 5998 between heater and cathode is not anywhere close to as robust as the 6080, and this is pushed to the limit in the Crack design.
-PB
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The 5998 generally speaking has more transconductance than the 6080. In the Crack circuit, you'll get slightly lower output impedance. On the other hand, the insulation of the 5998 between heater and cathode is not anywhere close to as robust as the 6080, and this is pushed to the limit in the Crack design.
-PB
So technically speaking, the 5998 will very likely not last as long as the stock 6080, and with the lower output impedance I should get slightly better damping if I was using low impedance cans, which I'm not so it sounds like a moot point to use one in the Crack for my application. Sound about right?
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At least some 5998s seem to have a better sound - nobody knows why, though I suspect better (quieter) cathodes because it's a premium tube. Or maybe it's just Western Electric brand-name stardust from the WE421 prototype. Be aware that there were never that many made, so a disproportionate percentage of what's available are samples that have been rejected before for one reason or another.
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I'm also leaning toward purchasing a 5998 tube. Would it perform well coupled with a Mullard CV4003? (also, would this listing be a good buy? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mullard-12AU7-double-triode-Vacuum-Tube-CV4003-ECC83-/271757525740)?
Edit: Other than ebay, where would be the best place to get a Mullard CV4003 at a reasonable price? Upscale Audio has them for $95 while Mullard's site carries a matched pair for $125. There are also multiple listings on Tube World. Should I just go with the lowest price for a NOS tube or is it worth paying extra for top-notch tubes?
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I purchased a Brimar 12AU7 on ebay and got it today.
It has a metallic area on the glass that no other of my 12AU7s has.
Does anybody know what caused this?
Should I try that in the Crack or is it dead?
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orson:
Perhaps this Brimar 12AU7 was constructed with a "side getter" and what you are seeing is the remnants of that. If so, then based on the apparent color of the "stain" on the glass, the tube should be fine. Many 6DN7s have this characteristic.
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Maybe someday the avid tube rollers will come up with a term to describe tubes that are transparent at their apex. Until then, listen and enjoy.
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Isn't the designation "clear-top" as in 12au7 clear-top used for this purpose?
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I'd say it's safe to assume Josh was being facetious.
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Thanks for the Infos. I will test it this evening.
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It has a metallic area on the glass that no other of my 12AU7s has.
All of your 12AU7's should have this, but it's usually at the top of the glass.
If they don't have this, or if its white, then the tube is suspect.
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Noob as I am it took a time to understand.
Quite embarassing.
But now I know for life what a "topgetter" and a "sidegetter" is.
Hope I entertained you a bit with that question.
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And to add something useful: I listened the whole evening to the Brimar and must say I like it even a tad more than the Mullard in my setup (non-speedballed Crack with JAN CAHG 5998). Sounds a tiny little bit softer and therefore more organic and alive.
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Hi,
Ive just bough a new tube to replace the tube which came with my amp which had a fault.
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi76.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj23%2Fpnooud%2F74F43C88-9D47-4BAA-95C0-47FB613893E4_zpsstx7s9sa.jpg&hash=82366aff0d288e9cb3a5f53cf8dd77de7fbf4528) (http://s76.photobucket.com/user/pnooud/media/74F43C88-9D47-4BAA-95C0-47FB613893E4_zpsstx7s9sa.jpg.html)
I just wanted a cheap tube to check if mine was faulty, so ordered one cheap off eBay that was in the uk, so would be delivered quick, The I ordered a brimar 12au7, but I got a tube that has the brand ZaeuX (or maybe ZaeriX) on it, the guy also gave me a second tube as a free gift which is just labeled 12AU7A, with no other branding.
With the Zaeux tube, there is a little more treble and you notice listening to a track with a busy drum section, the drums seem to have a bit more texture.
The non branded tube was a bit smoother sounding and sounded a bit cleaner, but its not got the same energy.
I prefer the sound of the Zaeux personally.
It would be good to know if it sounds better or worse than the original tube that came with the crack; I seem to remember the original sounding better, but that could have been the glass of single malt I had :)
Where should I go from here do you think, I am wondering will I get much more detailed sound etc spending a bit more?
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The Zaerix looks to be of European manufacture, it's probably not a Brimar, but rather an Amperex or something of the like. It's a very nice tube!
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The Zaerix looks to be of European manufacture, it's probably not a Brimar, but rather an Amperex or something of the like. It's a very nice tube!
Thanks Caucasian, Thats good to hear.
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the guy also gave me a second tube as a free gift which is just labeled 12AU7A, with no other branding.
Several of my Westinghouse tubes have the part number printed at the top like that with the rectangular octagon around it and they also have the flat sides on the spacer too, so my guess is Westinghouse.
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(The octagon means RCA)
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(The octagon means RCA)
Does that mean my Westinghouse tubes with the octagon around the tube number are actually made by RCA? They do have the 337 printed on them which I read somewhere is code for Westinghouse. *shrug*
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Yes, if there's an octagon around the label, it's an RCA.
If there are a bunch of dots under the label, it's a GE.
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Any recommendations on tube rolling with my crack? I run kit tubes at the moment, and I have a couple of tubes in stock ready to roll: Tung-Sol 5998 which microphones a lot, RCA 6AS7 with a broken getter as power tubes, and a Mullard Box Plate as an input one.
Currently with stock tubes the amp is REALLY bassy, and as much as I appreciate dark sound, it's really darkest thing I've heard. The bass can be tiresome. So what I'd want to do is achieve a more mellow, sweet sound with less accent on the bass.
Where do I go?
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Hello :-*
I took a gamble on ebay with two old worn looking mullard 12au7 tubes and won them for £11 delieved.... work really good and sound nice ... good tubes ...I'm happy :-*
still haven't heard the gec tube yet :-[
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Any recommendations on tube rolling with my crack? I run kit tubes at the moment, and I have a couple of tubes in stock ready to roll: Tung-Sol 5998 which microphones a lot, RCA 6AS7 with a broken getter as power tubes, and a Mullard Box Plate as an input one.
Currently with stock tubes the amp is REALLY bassy, and as much as I appreciate dark sound, it's really darkest thing I've heard. The bass can be tiresome. So what I'd want to do is achieve a more mellow, sweet sound with less accent on the bass.
Where do I go?
I've purchased a ridiculous amount of tubes in a short time. Depending on how the rest of the spectrum sounds, you could try an RCA 12AU7 clear top to bring up the top end, which may subjectively lessen the bass peak.
Or, use your 5998. I understand yours is microphonic, but it should be fine as long as it's quiet if you don't bump your amp or table? For me, the 5998 tightens up the bass and leans it out a little. My CV2984 output tube also tames the bass compared to my stock GE 6080.
What's interesting is the more I listened to the Crack, the more I liked the warm low end. The GE output tube doesn't sound as bloaty as it did before, but of course that's also with different input tubes. Latest iteration is 5687 which requires the Speedball upgrade as well as wiring mods since the pin-out is different. (See other thread about modifications for different tubes).
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I wonder if this was ok purchase. I paid $30 shipped for
1 5998 TUNG-SOL 1950's Hi Fi Amplifier Tube Date Code 322451-3
Tube Tested on a TV-7D/U Tester
40 is Minimum
Tube Tests 54-52
There are a few small pieces of loose glass inside of the tube, but this does not effect the performance.
I figured it could be a back up for my current one I use now even though it tests lowish it would be an ok backup for $30. Another strange thing is its look. 5998 is on the glass not the base. Have a look at this pic. It's on right side of tube to see what I mean.
(https://www.flickr.com/photos/hdtv00/16909778835/in/photostream/lightbox/)
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I just received a SED-6AS7G Winged "C" 6H13C from the Tube Store. It was within my budget and my 1st tube roll! I'm using it with the stock input tube I received with my Crack amp. Sounds really good! Maybe a little more laid back from the stock 6080, but nice full sound! It's very quiet and I have no complains. Man, I'm loving this amp! ;D
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Another strange thing is its look. 5998 is on the glass not the base. Have a look at this pic. It's on right side of tube to see what I mean.
Quite normal, some tubes were labelled on the base & some on the glass itself.
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Quite normal, some tubes were labelled on the base & some on the glass itself.
Dimpled plates are a good indicator that it's a 5998 and not a 6AS7G.
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Thanks for the replies guys. I've only had my crack for short few days and not entirely familiar with tubes for it. Reading through this thread still. The person wanted $50 for it but I offered $22.50 and they accepted it. Now my only concern then is the test rating. 40 being min for good and it testing at 54-52. Any insight into how long a tube can last at its Min point. Or how long it might take it to go from 54-52 to its 40 min.
I've read lots of stuff on the 6922 for my Aune T1 but I don't remember seeing lots of take about how the tubes rating relates to how much longer it might last. Course it's based on usage but any general idea. I guess it doesn't matter to much being it was $30 and it's the real deal. It last however long it lasts I guess. Now to hope its silent when it gets here Thursday.
I did get a Amperex Orange Globe 12au7a because I loved them in my Aune T1 which feeds my crack. And I think it sounds just great to me. As much as the Telefunken ribbed plate 12au7 that was part of my purchase deal for the crack. I also bought another rib plate Telefunken as a back up for it because I loved it's sound.
I don't like the 6080 tube that it came with it's not as clean sounding to me. Not as crisp and detailed.
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If a tube tests 54/50 min being 40 how long do you guys think it might last in normal use. Few years, months? Any idea's anyone.
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There are too many variables to say how long a tube will last. They have a 'rated' life but manufacturing tolerances, what circuit it is used in, how hard it is 'worked', use, etc....Brand new tubes can fail, old tubes can go for years & years.
Just use & enjoy!
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Hey guys, new guy here :)
I scored a used Crack with Speedball last week to go with my HD650's and I'm really diggin it!! So far I have replaced the stock 12AU7 with a Gold Lion ECC82, I didn't know where to start with NOS and I heard the gold lion was a good tube so I thought I'd try it out. Compared to the stock tube, the gold lion really brought the mids forward and added a significant amount of detail/texture to the music.
I still have the stock 6080 though and I'm thinking about replacing it.. to me it's tad bass heavy/bloated and tricks my ear into thinking there's a lack of treble in the mix, but there really isn't. I listen to a lot of drum-heavy progressive metal and it's hard to distinguish the cymbals at moderate volumes. Any recommendations on a tube that would open up the sound with a bit less bass but still pack a punch?
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Just acquired two Tungsram ECC82 for $15 shipped, and according to the tester they tested well and at that price there isn't much risk. :)
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Zachary,
At that price even if they tested low you would have hours of a good tube. Nice deal!
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Did I just score an unmarked Western Electric 421a. I'm pretty sure I just did for $175. What do ya guys think. Does that mean my tube search is over now. Anything in the test results to worry about?
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I've seen discussion arguing whether a 421A is really just a hand-picked/special 5998. Hold it side by side with your 5998. Is it identical or are there differences?
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I've seen discussion arguing whether a 421A is really just a hand-picked/special 5998. Hold it side by side with your 5998. Is it identical or are there differences?
Mine are different but I have noticed several variations in 5998 construction the closest I have is a early 5998 clear top later ones are silver topped which is one of the most noticeable differences. I did have three differing 5998's at one point and might still have but would have to check if that's still the case as have sold a couple recently.
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Zachary,
At that price even if they tested low you would have hours of a good tube. Nice deal!
Yes I am one happy camper! :)
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This is what vacuumtubes.net had to say when I asked how they can tell its a 421a and not just a 5998.
"Tung-Sol (and their subsidiary brand Chatham) was the only company to ever produce the 5998 (both the top and bottom getter variants). You'll see them branded with GE, Sylvania, RCA and every other smaller name out there- but they are all Tung-Sol.
The WE421a is rather similar to the TS bottom-getter 5998. They sound similar, they look alike, and they have rather close operating specs. However, the 421a is a vastly superior tube, but considering it's scarcity most people end up with 5998s because collecting a quad of matched 421a is somewhere between unlikely and impossible, and the 'close enough' factor applies."
There was more about history of Western Electric and what not. He didn't answer directly I guess the question but seems to know what they're talking about I guess. I said go ahead and invoice me for it. Time will tell I guess.
They emailed back and explained much further and in detail.
" I'm glad that our reputation proceeds us, but I still like to make sure that we're always known to be on the level. There is one easy way to identify the 421a over the 5998. The top mica and support column has three evenly spaced separators in a triangle.
(((Sorry for the poor photo. We really need a better camera in the office...)))
The 5998 just has 2. Beyond etching, printing, boxes and labels- the internal construction can't be faked. Most of the "421a" tubes on eBay are actually bottom getter 5998s (or sometimes they're even trying to pass top getter variants!). Ask them for a photo of the top of the tube and most of them just don't answer.
The 421a comes with two types of printing:
The first is the well-known heavy yellow paint. It was an early form of thermographics, and the lettering is raised. Not just raised a little- but often enough to tell what the characters are without looking at the tube.
The other is blank. These were left unbranded for commercial sales to radio and industrial manufacturers. Not flat printing, not printing on the glass, not white lettering on the top of the glass... they were heavy yellow or blank. Everything else is rolled on after production.
When you're looking at audio tubes, and especially expensive tubes, you have more than a right to ask about its authenticity. If it is a tube I can't prove I'll give you my reasoning as to why I feel one way or another, and we can compare notes and research. We would rather pass on a sale of an iffy than risk that hard-built reputation."
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Nice reply from them thanks for posting it
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This is what vacuumtubes.net had to say when I asked how they can tell its a 421a and not just a 5998.
"Tung-Sol (and their subsidiary brand Chatham) was the only company to ever produce the 5998 (both the top and bottom getter variants). You'll see them branded with GE, Sylvania, RCA and every other smaller name out there- but they are all Tung-Sol.
The WE421a is rather similar to the TS bottom-getter 5998. They sound similar, they look alike, and they have rather close operating specs. However, the 421a is a vastly superior tube, but considering it's scarcity most people end up with 5998s because collecting a quad of matched 421a is somewhere between unlikely and impossible, and the 'close enough' factor applies."
There was more about history of Western Electric and what not. He didn't answer directly I guess the question but seems to know what they're talking about I guess. I said go ahead and invoice me for it. Time will tell I guess.
They emailed back and explained much further and in detail.
" I'm glad that our reputation proceeds us, but I still like to make sure that we're always known to be on the level. There is one easy way to identify the 421a over the 5998. The top mica and support column has three evenly spaced separators in a triangle.
(((Sorry for the poor photo. We really need a better camera in the office...)))
The 5998 just has 2. Beyond etching, printing, boxes and labels- the internal construction can't be faked. Most of the "421a" tubes on eBay are actually bottom getter 5998s (or sometimes they're even trying to pass top getter variants!). Ask them for a photo of the top of the tube and most of them just don't answer.
The 421a comes with two types of printing:
The first is the well-known heavy yellow paint. It was an early form of thermographics, and the lettering is raised. Not just raised a little- but often enough to tell what the characters are without looking at the tube.
The other is blank. These were left unbranded for commercial sales to radio and industrial manufacturers. Not flat printing, not printing on the glass, not white lettering on the top of the glass... they were heavy yellow or blank. Everything else is rolled on after production.
When you're looking at audio tubes, and especially expensive tubes, you have more than a right to ask about its authenticity. If it is a tube I can't prove I'll give you my reasoning as to why I feel one way or another, and we can compare notes and research. We would rather pass on a sale of an iffy than risk that hard-built reputation."
Nice reply from them thanks for posting it
After taking a look at my WE421a and my 5998 clear tops which are branded Chatham and not Tung-sol there are some differences which I thought would be useful for you to see for comparison to yours.
So for comparison a couple of NOS WE421a and a pair of used Chatham clear tops branded 5998 essentially the construction is near identical the clear top 5998 also have the triangle micas orientated in a triangle at the top but they are a different shape to those on the WE
I suspect these tubes where manufactured some 20 or so years apart so I would be very surprised if there where not some differences in construction over that time.
I do definitely have a preference for the the older 5998 clear tops.
WE 421a
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.head-fi.org%2F9%2F92%2F900x900px-LL-92dda0ca_005.jpeg&hash=8c5fafb50bd53d00cfca0c051210209fbc6236e8)
Chatham 5998
(https://www.head-fi.org/image/id/7175791/width/900/height/900/flags/LL)
5998 triangle orientation note shape of top mica and support column has three evenly spaced separators in a triangle.
(https://www.head-fi.org/image/id/7175792/width/900/height/900/flags/LL)
View of top mica shape on the WE
(https://www.head-fi.org/image/id/7175793/width/900/height/900/flags/LL)
The bottom getters on my WE421a are also round and different to the 5998 clear top
(https://www.head-fi.org/image/id/7175794/width/900/height/900/flags/LL)
Oblong getters on the 5998 branded tube
(https://www.head-fi.org/image/id/7175795/width/900/height/900/flags/LL)
Lastly the domino holes in the plates look slightly larger on the WE
(https://www.head-fi.org/image/id/7175796/width/900/height/900/flags/LL)
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jamie you have such a nice collection of tubes :) nice pictures good information
I'm looking forward to you thoughts on the mainline, as you have so much experience with the crack
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Thanks for taking the time and effort appreciated. Well now I look EVERY ebay listed 421a has the curved micas just like your photos. The one they're trying to sell me does NOT look like any pic from ebay or yours shape wise, the one they're selling is shaped just like your 5998.
See the 421a they're selling me(the top attachment) is shape of your 5998. But I found another pic of Western Electric but it's labeled BOTH 5998/421a(bottom attachment) and looks totally legit but it does has same 5998 shape. So maybe it's more like a 5998 than true 421a. I haven't got the tube yet I just paid for it they haven't shipped it yet. Man this is way harder than it should be , thanks for all your help. I honestly really don't know what to do.
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Thanks for taking the time and effort appreciated. Well now I look EVERY ebay listed 421a has the curved micas just like your photos. The one they're trying to sell me does NOT look like any pic from ebay or yours shape wise, the one they're selling is shaped just like your 5998.
See the 421a they're selling me(the top attachment) is shape of your 5998. But I found another pic of Western Electric but it's labeled BOTH 5998/421a(bottom attachment) and looks totally legit but it does has same 5998 shape. So maybe it's more like a 5998 than true 421a. I haven't got the tube yet I just paid for it they haven't shipped it yet. Man this is way harder than it should be , thanks for all your help. I honestly really don't know what to do.
You could ask if the seller would provide a letter of authenticity perhaps or that on your receipt it will be clearly described as a WE421a.
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Personally i wouldn't pay that kind of money on speculation. It might be a Tung-Sol 421a, or a 5998, or a 2399, or a 6520, there is no way to know for sure.
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I've always preferred sniping eBay listings for good tubes at fair prices. We're bottlehead, not financial speculators!
This reminds me of when I was the highest bidder on a GEC brown base, with a bid of $7.99 and just 1 hour left. Once it hit the 15 min remaining mark the bidding soared to $135. One day I'll get the Brown base or WE421A for a sniper's price ;)
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Yep right paying that much on speculation plus the facts don't add up for me. What they have is unlabeled and it looks EXACTLY like that Catham 5998. It has same rectangle mica's it has same rectangle bottom getter at is too. But every 421A labeled clearly or partial that you showed and every single one on ebay the Mica was Oblong on each and every one. Plus I see that round getter like shown by JamieMcC. So thanks for input I think that's enough proof right there it's not a true 421A or at least its some crazy hybrid like that one I've seen before labeled Western Electric 5998/421A it looks legit but it doesn't look like the normal 421A's.
EDIT I did find some with non round getters that have legit full labels. So that's ok but still every single one I have found has oblong mica's, which is about 8 or more total I've seen.
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these have just come on ebay uk from a tube dealer, they look very old gec
very high prices but I just might buy one for my collection...yes I'm mad!
I''ve not heard the gec before and just saved myself £300 buying a different sound bar for my tv :)
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/COLOMOR-VALVES-TUBES-COMPONENTS/_i.html?_nkw=GEC+6AS7G&submit=Search&_sid=18843948
is there a difference in the pan getters and retangular getters ? with sound ,, don't suppose anyone knows?
also how do I know whats best with the test readings? ...I can never understand it , would the lowest numbers in the test be the ones to go for with this guys testing method? best buy and closest match of numbers
the other week a german seller was selling 6 tubes starting at 99p..... 4 of them were gec curved bases nos , he didn;t even know the value till I ask to buy one and told him.
they sold for under £400
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well I couldnt wait ;D I bought this one
A1834 6AS7G GEC PAN GETTER BROWN CURVED BASE NEW OLD STOCK VALVE TUBE
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/371292862779?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_from%3DR40%26_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3D371292862779%26_rdc%3D1
A1834 6AS7 GEC
PAN GETTER
CURVED BROWN BASE
BLACK PLATE
DATE CODE:
HG
NEW OLD STOCK
ELECTRONIC VALVE / TUBE
FULLY TESTED
IA:50 GM:5.2 @-31VG
IA:50 GM:5.3 @-32 VG
£210 smackeroonies :o
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"he didn;t even know the value till I ask to buy one and told him."..............sigh
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:D the ad , went for £430
after i told the guy he updated the pictures with the tubes out the boxes :-* im too honest
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/9-x-AS7G-Rohre-Tubes-GEC-RCA-unbenutzt-NOS-448-/201306570607?nma=true&si=omxC%252BKI%252BrWrUmJLowpQ6upLwbVI%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
I get a prize for the most expensive gec tube then ? :o have to get a 421a now
if I really like the gec I'll buy another one and keep this for my collection ...the madness
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"9 x AS7G" ::) If he listed them properly they would have sold for a lot more.
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:D the ad , went for £430
after i told the guy he updated the pictures with the tubes out the boxes :-* im too honest
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/9-x-AS7G-Rohre-Tubes-GEC-RCA-unbenutzt-NOS-448-/201306570607?nma=true&si=omxC%252BKI%252BrWrUmJLowpQ6upLwbVI%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
I get a prize for the most expensive gec tube then ? :o have to get a 421a now
if I really like the gec I'll buy another one and keep this for my collection ...the madness
I've had to much Sex of late so dug out my GEC today and am chilling out with a little Crack usage and the GEC is hitting the spot.. its got me wondering about the midrange on the Mainline which is rumoured to be a bit special...
I've been deliberately avoiding looking at the delivery status page.
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Well excited as usual I'll bring some life into this thread haha. Just won auction for a Western Electric 421A that does have it's writing clear enough to tell it's legit. Described as
"This may be the ugliest Western Electric tube I have ever had. The base is dirty and most of the writing is gone - I have not cleaned it for fear of removing what writing is there. This is a 421A Dual Triode in excellent working condition. I cannot read the date code. It is a black plate version.
My Hickok tester decided to completely stop working recently, so I tested this on a B&K that give your percentage of mutual conductance spec. Both triodes on this one test identical at 120% of spec when tested as a 6AS7. No gas, no shorts.
I will guarantee this tube to be good, but will leave it to the new owner to clean it up. This is a good way to get an excellent sounding tube a a very good price."
Got it for $197.50 shipped. That's at least decent yeah? Any thoughts or worries anyone.
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Any thoughts
The seller was very honest!
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I know right , how ugly is that thing haha. But long as it's good and test ok when I get it. I'll be happy at $197.50. If I can't hear any difference between my 5998's I'll just resell it on ebay for same amount and call it a day. But this way I'll at least figure I'll know first hand. That's what I been about lately first hand knowing. Got a real amp with the crack, got real tubes letting it all go. And if in the end I don't feel it's something special I'll sell it all for little loss and pass it on to the next guy.
I'm just getting older and feel I had to know....you all feel me.
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Got my unassembled (used) crack today, and I learned my first lesson the hard way. When unpacking I managed to let the power tube slip out, and boom crash, no more tube. :-(
Anyone have an extra 6080 they are willing to sell? Or a pointer to an inexpensive purchase?
Also, what do all the letters and numbers the tube mean? There's:
U.S.N.
CRC-6080-WA
57-30
If I want to search for a replacement tube, which of these digits is relevant? Is there a good web page that explains the lettering/numbering on tubes?
Many thanks,
Allan
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6080 is only part you need to worry about, the model designation of the tube. You can also use a 6AS7G in place.
FYI the U.S.N. is the marking for US Navy, CRC is the designation for RCA, and the -WA signifies the tube is a ruggedized version, or tested to military spec. Finally the 57-30 is a production code or date of manufacture. I assume 30th week of 1957.
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I've had good experiences with buying tubes on ebay. You can find 6080 tubes for pretty cheap. And as an added bonus, now is a perfect time to start looking at tube rolling!
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I've had good experiences with buying tubes on ebay. You can find 6080 tubes for pretty cheap. And as an added bonus, now is a perfect time to start looking at tube rolling!
My first experience with tube rolling wasn't good. The tube rolled right off the table!
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My first experience with tube rolling wasn't good. The tube rolled right off the table!
Ha! Well played, sir.
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I was thinking of getting this one to try out for myself but since you're had issues I'll let you get it. Watch out tube watching on ebay is addictive as the great sound of the crack with right tubes.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/261807233997?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
I thought about this one too just cause they're basically giving it away at that price.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/231188557398?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&var=530402754716&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Thought about these too just cause I'm curious.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/171730026130?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Anyway there ya go some options from my own watchlist. I didn't link any high cost ones. There are probably even cheapers ones on ebay just search 6080 and you'll see lots.
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Some nice options there, both the 1st and last options are good deals. The 2nd one isnt anything special so i would pass on that one, though its a shame the Sylvania Gold brand is sold (#6) as it was a nice tube, especially at that price. The seller is a nice guy too (Walt), he favors sales volume over markup so his prices are always very reasonable, and always more than happy to test/match tubes if you ask him too.
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thanks for the advice. I will probably get the cheap one just until I get the amp working and can establish a baseline. Stupid gravity.
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Ok so I think I better calm down. But do you guys think I did good deal wise on what I gathered so far? As much as I've gotten carried away I at least hope I got good deals. I tried to do good and not do something stupid. I read this read entirely and tried to make good right choices for fair prices. The prices listed is for that group of tubes.
1 Tung Sol came with my crack when I bought it on head fi
-----------------------------------------------------------------
2 Mullard CV4003 cryo treated $240
1 Telefunken rib plate
1 Telefunken smooth plate
1 Mullard 12AU7 1950 blackburn factory
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Tung Sol 5998 (1961) $120
1 Sylvania 6080WB
1 FAA? 6AS7G
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Western Electric 421A $197.50
Both triodes on this one test identical at 120% of spec
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tung Sol 5998 322451-3 $30.00
40 is Minimum
Tube Tests 54-52
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Telefunken rib plate $41.50
Min good is 56. NOS is 88 tested 102/107
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1968 Amperex Orange Globe 12AU7A Tube; Min good is 56. NOS is 88 tested 95/93 $28.50
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Ok so I think I better calm down. But do you guys think I did good deal wise on what I gathered so far? As much as I've gotten carried away I at least hope I got good deals. I tried to do good and not do something stupid. I read this read entirely and tried to make good right choices for fair prices. The prices listed is for that group of tubes.
1 Tung Sol came with my crack when I bought it on head fi
-----------------------------------------------------------------
2 Mullard CV4003 cryo treated $240
1 Telefunken rib plate
1 Telefunken smooth plate
1 Mullard 12AU7 1950 blackburn factory
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Tung Sol 5998 (1961) $120
1 Sylvania 6080WB
1 FAA? 6AS7G
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Western Electric 421A $197.50
Both triodes on this one test identical at 120% of spec
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tung Sol 5998 322451-3 $30.00
40 is Minimum
Tube Tests 54-52
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Telefunken rib plate $41.50
Min good is 56. NOS is 88 tested 102/107
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1968 Amperex Orange Globe 12AU7A Tube; Min good is 56. NOS is 88 tested 95/93 $28.50
You certainly went to town with such a collection I suspect you will be able to easily narrow down what suits your personal preferences weeding out and recouping some of your costs selling those that don't.
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Genalex Gold Lion 12AU7 (current production from Russia)
I couldn't find anyone else mentioning this tube so I thought I'd write a few words about it. (edit - I only searched for Genalex, but I see Koop likes this tube also). This is the first tube I've rolled into my new Crack with Speedball. Here in Australia the Genalex costs almost twice as much as other current production 12AU7s but is still a cheap and as it turns out, very worthwhile upgrade.
Initially I build the Crack as we are supposed to, without the speedball. I was quite happy with the RCA clear-top that came with my kit but I commented to a fellow Crack owner that while I loved the sound it lacked the detail and resolution of my WA6 (with 6DR7s or 6SN7s), he assured me the Speedball would change that. He was right, although I felt the WA6 still edged out the Crack slightly for detail, while the Crack won with midrange and bass.
The Genalex 12AU7 had a huge impact on the Crack's sound, it slightly tightened the bass and added much more resolution. I'm used to 'detail and resolution' often equating to 'reduced bass' but that's not the case with this tube. It feels well rounded in every area. In the past I've had to do the usual burn-in with different tubes but the Genalex sounded great from the start, and slightly improved after about 10 hours of use.
The Crack is my main amp now and stays at home while the Woo is relegated to the office desk. Don't get me wrong, the WA6 is a fine amp - and I know people keep saying this but I'll join in - I can't believe how good the Crack-Speedball sounds. Something I built has no right to sound this good! I'm so happy with the new Genalex I probably won't think about another tube for at least a week ;)
To keep things in perspective, headphones are T1s and source is a Schiit Gungnir, I listen to all sorts of music but mostly Classical and acoustic Jazz.
cheers Howard
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Something that would have been cool when I started is a set of tubes that could be passed around for auditioning. I don't mind paying for something that I like the sound of, but it gets expensive to tube roll when the desirable tubes demand a premium. I've spent at least $500 so far on tubes over the last 2 months and now have my favorites which total about $200 (5998, GB6080, 6080WB graphite, T-S 5687, Syl 12BH7, CBS-Hytron 5814WA).
Extra tubes that I'm no longer listening to: RCA clear top, RCA long black plate, CV4003, Sylvania 12AU7, Westinghouse 12AU7, RCA12BH7, Tungsram E80CC, GE 5814, CV2984, GE 6080, RCA 6AS7G.
I wouldn't be adverse to sending out my unused tubes knowing that they will come back. One way to guarantee their return would be to take a deposit which would be refunded upon return of the tubes. One risk I'd have to deal with is tube failure when not in my possession.
Thoughts on this?
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Please take this opportunity to re-familiarize yourself with the rules of this forum:
http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=3.0 (http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=3.0)
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Hi There!
I finally got my Crack Finished and fixed up. I know the forums rules suggest no "what's best" type questions, but I am unsure how to clarify beyond asking what next if I was wanting a reasonable upgrade to the stock tubes for ~100. I'd need to be able to buy them from somewhere that ships internationally. Tube rolling seems to be the logical next step as I am concerned about my lack of electronics understanding to put better capacitors in them or different other components or what voltage check results would then be without an idiot guide.
I listen to pop, soft rock, mostly vocal or easy listening stuff.
I love the experience of trying a track I've listened to many times and get the hair on my arms up.
I have a HD650 and T1 as HP's and a BiFrost DAC
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Surely with 78 pages in this thread called Tube Rolling w/Crack there might be some info useful to you?
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While the 5998 seems to be everyone's favorite power tube, I'm wondering what is the most natural sounding input tube in most people's opinions? The consensus from my own notes seems to be the Amperex Bugle Boy, but I thought I'd ask. My headphones are HD6x0 and my preferred sound is natural and realistic. Is there another power tube that other people think sounds more natural than the 5998?
Edit: I ended up going with a HP-branded Amperex ECC88. Gonna have to wait a while on the 5998.
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Edit: I ended up going with a HP-branded Amperex ECC88.
An ECC88 will not work in the Crack.
-PB
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An ECC88 will not work in the Crack.
D'oh! I thought the 12AU7 was an equivalent. Welp, I guess I'll have to sell it as I don't really have any other use for it.
I ended up going with a Genalex Gold Lion and an RCA Clear Top. Will probably end up buying a 5998, the only other cheaper power tube which seemed to get consistently good reviews is the Svetlana "Winged C" which I'm researching more.
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D'oh! I thought the 12AU7 was an equivalent. Welp, I guess I'll have to sell it as I don't really have any other use for it.
I ended up going with a Genalex Gold Lion and an RCA Clear Top. Will probably end up buying a 5998, the only other cheaper power tube which seemed to get consistently good reviews is the Svetlana "Winged C" which I'm researching more.
I personally hate my 5998 and prefer the stock 6080 or Western Electric 421A. 99% of the time I run the Winged C tube now. I think it is an excellent bang for the buck and "good" enough. Don't underestimate the 6080. I have two cracks built more or less identically and one of them seems to have a sweet spot for a particular JAN 6080 tube and that's what I run in that Crack.
Look for the Mullard Box Plate CV4003 for your 12AU7, personally my favorite.
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I loved my 5998. Unfortunately, it died on me the other day. I was switching out the 12AU7, and I didn't let it cool down long enough. Turned it back on, and I get very little output. Now I'm running a Bendix 6080WB graphite plate. It's not as pretty as the 5998, but it does sound great.
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I loved my 5998. Unfortunately, it died on me the other day. I was switching out the 12AU7, and I didn't let it cool down long enough. Turned it back on, and I get very little output. Now I'm running a Bendix 6080WB graphite plate. It's not as pretty as the 5998, but it does sound great.
Are there any consensus great 6080 variants besides the Bendix 6080wb graphite plate, the 5998, Brown base 6as7g and 421a?
While those are all great tubes finding something comprable without as high of a price would be very nice for the long term (I can stock up on them).
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Are there any consensus great 6080 variants besides the Bendix 6080wb graphite plate, the 5998, Brown base 6as7g and 421a?
While those are all great tubes finding something comprable without as high of a price would be very nice for the long term (I can stock up on them).
Try GEC or Mullard 6080 ;)
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Are there any consensus great 6080 variants besides the Bendix 6080wb graphite plate, the 5998, Brown base 6as7g and 421a?
While those are all great tubes finding something comprable without as high of a price would be very nice for the long term (I can stock up on them).
Sylvania Gold Brand GB6080 is in my regular rotation, along with the 5998 and graphite plate 6080.
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Try GEC or Mullard 6080 ;)
The GEC 6080 looks interesting, as does the Telefunken 6080 but I can't find much information on the latter.
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Try GEC or Mullard 6080 ;)
Jamie, is the GEC 6080 and Mullard 6080 the same tube?
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Jamie, is the GEC 6080 and Mullard 6080 the same tube?
No the GEC 6080 was only made as far as I am aware at the Marconi/GEC Brook Green Works, Hammersmith the same factory as the GEC 6as7g brown base and it looks like they both have the same plate structure but the 6AS7G version has the cup getters at the bottom while 6080 has halo getters at the top.
While the Mullard 6080 was manufactured at perhaps four or five location both in the UK and Europe.
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I loved my 5998. Unfortunately, it died on me the other day. I was switching out the 12AU7, and I didn't let it cool down long enough. Turned it back on, and I get very little output. Now I'm running a Bendix 6080WB graphite plate. It's not as pretty as the 5998, but it does sound great.
Could you elaborate more on what it is you did that ruined your tube? How long should one let the amp cool down before pulling a tube?
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Also, I recently got my hands on a 5998 in good condition as well as a clear top RCA and a Gold Lion.
Some quick notes (using HD600):
The 5998 is more linear than the stock tube and with significantly better separation, although I think I still prefer the stock tube for some music for its fuller bass and low mids.
The Genalex Gold Lion is my favorite thing so far. Bass is tight and clean and hits hard, mids are rich and full, vocals are smooth and real, and soundstage is very good.
The RCA clear top has really pretty treble, but I felt that the combo of the RCA and 5998 was a little bass light. I have yet to experiment with the stock tube and the clear top but I suspect it'll be quite good.
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Hi guys,
I've done a few upgrades to my Crack+Speedball.
I added the big Dayton caps and they seem to be excellent.
Tubes I've settled on for now are an ordinary Chatham 6AS7G and an RCA VT-231 6SN7G smokey. This adapter has worked great, the noise floor has been more than acceptable.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320659633166&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_1080wt_793
Strictly listening to vinyl with a custom Technics SL-1210 and Beyer T90, T1, and Senn HD800. Results are spectacular for my needs.
The Technics is perfectly setup (Jelco SA-750D and Denon DL-301MK2) and the Crack noise floor is far below the groove noise from the vinyl which is minimal. I couldn't be happier with the result. Incredibly immersive.
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Anybody tried 6N6Pi for the CRACK will it work?
Thanks!
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The 6N1P is a variant of the 6DJ8 that requires more heater current, not a lot more. So it can't just drop in. The plate and cathode will need modifying.
But it is a fine sounding tube.
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I wish i have that tube so i can try it out but what i found in my shoe box are 8 Pcs of 6N6Pi anyway i will give it a try.
Hopefully no magic smoke.
Thanks!
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cross reference is ECC99. Here are PJ's thoughts on its use.
http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=1112.msg8246#msg8246 (http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=1112.msg8246#msg8246)
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The 6N6Pi works but not a plug n play,When i first plug it in this tube did not light up luckily i have a Desktop PS with a regulator set it to 6.3V and Voila it works surprisingly it's DEAD SILENT and sound nice too at least to my ears.
Thanks for all the reply.
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The 6N1P has about twice the amplification factor of the 12AU7, which makes it pretty unsuitable for the Crack. It also has a different pinout, so you'd have to move some wires around to get it to even glow. Without the Speedball and some fiddling, getting the plate voltage under 100V is going to come with a fair number of compromises.
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Hi !
I'm got my Crack recently, and I'm using it with a HD800.
Coming from a Violectric V100, this Crack is incredible ! Big thanks to Bottlehead for this wonderful product btw.
I'm totally new to tube rolling, and looking for tubes would show me how much sound change you can get out of it. I'm opened to any kind of sound signature, as I listen to Classical music, Progressive rock and Electro, and I find different requirements for different album mixes. A tube I really need right now though is one that would give more bottom end, and roll of some treble for quite agressive mixes and bass focused music.
Any suggestions ?
Also how come TS&C5998 goes for like 150$ on eBay and only 85$ on vacuumtubes.net ? (are they also used ?)
At last what is the difference between the RCA 5814 grey plate and black plate ?
Thanks a lot.
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What are you guys thoughts about these 12AU7 new production tubes from JJ and EH?
Thanks!
JJ ECC802-S / 12AU7 Gold
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thetubestore.com%2FJJ-ECC802S-Gold-Audio-Vacuum-Tube.jpg&hash=ee7a7c6a05ad253269be9e009096bf7383fa12ef)
Electro-Harmonix 12AU7A / ECC82EH Gold
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thetubestore.com%2FElectro-Harmonix-12AU7-ECC82-Gold-Tube.jpg&hash=aa530b41675727aa78f4db03f8fdbcb8082abc4f)
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What are you guys thoughts about these 12AU7 new production tubes from JJ and EH?
The old stock tubes provided with the Crack are likely to sound a bit better.
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The old stock tubes provided with the Crack are likely to sound a bit better.
I got an Electro Harmonix with my kit? :-\
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The old stock tubes provided with the Crack are likely to sound a bit better.
True that i bought the Genalex gold lion just for fun to try it out ... now its sitting in my closet ... lol the stock does sound better
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I got an Electro Harmonix with my kit? :-\
That's because sometimes we can't get old stock tubes in fast enough to keep up with demand for the Crack.
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I got an Electro Harmonix with my kit? :-\
They do sneak in from time to time.
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Thank you guys!
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Listening to the HD600 and with a 5998, I've actually had a really hard time deciding whether the Genalex Gold Lion or the Hewlett-Packard branded Amperex (made in Holland) I got sounds better. I really love the Gold Lion, personally. It was the most unimpressive at first, but once it opens up it's really holographic and has great mids and bass, it has a somewhat rich sound in the mids that reminds me in a way of the LCD2 and is a tinge mid forward. The Amperex is just starting to open up after a few nights of burn-in and the clarity and extension in the treble are really impressive, beautiful mids, everything sounds natural through and through. I still like the bass and soundstage of the Gold Lions better though.
I have to say that the Clear Top doesn't impress me as much with the HD600, the bass is too lean. Reminds me of the Etymotic HF5. On the HD650, however, it's a different story: wow wow wow, what a combo. I almost want to keep my HD650 and Clear Top just because it sounded so freaking good.
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Is telefunken 6211 can be switch with 12au7 tube? What's the different between ecc82, ecc802s & 6211?
Iam a newbie with this all. But enjoy it very much
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Is telefunken 6211 can be switch with 12au7 tube?
No, a 6211 is not a substitute for a 12AU7.
What's the different between ecc82, ecc802s & 6211?
Two are 12AU7 equivalents, the 6211 is its own type. (Despite what the guys on eBay are saying, they are just trying to sell a tube that isn't in serious demand)
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Does anybody know how to reduce the start current on the heater filament?
I replaced the stock 12au7 by a mullard blackburn, and when i turn on the amp, the heaters glow quite bright for 1 sec and than go back to normal.
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Costes
That is normal behaviour for many European manufactured nine pin tubes.
Jim
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Does anybody know how to reduce the start current on the heater filament?
I replaced the stock 12au7 by a mullard blackburn, and when i turn on the amp, the heaters glow quite bright for 1 sec and than go back to normal.
Google "Mullard Flash"
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Thanks for the useful info! Appreciate the help :)
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I must say that im very pleased with the following setup...
Crack + Speedball upgrade
HD 650
Cardas microtwins 300b interconnects
ODAC
Tubes :
Tung Sol5998
Genalex Gold lion ECC82
Wow, the sound stage.
I will also run those tubes and give my comment soon :
RCA Clear top 12AU7
Amperex globe 12AU7/ECC82 grey plate top halo (orange)
Im 100% happy with the bottlehead products, god damn its good to hear music from this...
I was running the o2 amplifier before and the difference is stunning.
Downloading all the FLAC music i can get now!
Thanks to bottlehead for their amazing product.
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You can use the 6CG7 with the Crack also. Just separate the jumper between pins 4 and 5, then run a wire from pin 9 to whicheven pin (4 or 5) has no wire running to it. The E80CC is another decent choice.
As for the 6080/6AS7 variants, you really need to stay within the heater current limits, that's the key. Tubes like the 6336 will overtax the power transformer. I will test the 6BL7 sometime this week with my Speedball Crack and see how it lines up with the stock operating points.
So, all the wire connect to 4 & 5 must disconnect it then run a single wire from 9 to them(4vor 5), is this what you mean? Thank you
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Hi, can anybody help me with some info on this tubes?.. the one on the right is clearly a 6080wa but there's no mention of the manufacturer, and the one on the left is physically smaller, no visible markings, has copper rods and that weird wire surrounding the base with a little spring attached - never saw one of those. (i can take more detailed pictures if needed, these are taken with the cellphone)
The marked 6080wa is in my crack right now and to my ears sounds as good as the stock RCA, maybe a little less bass, will let it in for a couple days to get burned in
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fgpwm5ax.jpg&hash=82b06d86a330ae7edac43a162c6c21e60b505fc4)
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Hi, can anybody help me with some info on this tubes?
Are there any other markings on the glass or bases?
The wire and spring can probably be popped off.
-PB
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No markings at all except that 6080WA.. maybe they are some russian tubes? They came as a package deal with the Crack, and there was another 6H5C and 6H13C tubes in the box, anyway i'll keep digging.
Do you think i could cause some damage if i plug the one on the left in the Crack? (this sounds wrong.. ;D )
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No markings at all except that 6080WA.. maybe they are some russian tubes? They came as a package deal with the Crack, and there was another 6H5C and 6H13C tubes in the box, anyway i'll keep digging.
Do you think i could cause some damage if i plug the one on the left in the Crack? (this sounds wrong.. ;D )
The both look like pretty normal RCA/GE 6080's. They aren't Russian.
Why would the one on the left be an issue?
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Hi guys,
I bought my Crack along with a Tung-sol 5998 last year. Unfortunately, my 5998 got some microphonics ("ting ting" sound) as I typed or touched the Crack and I didn't have a decent DAC/source back then, so I couldn't have any critical judgement on the sound of Tung-sol 5998. Then I was fortunate and bought a Bendix 6080WB slotted graphite plate power tube and the Bendix was totally dead silent. I sold my 5998 right after that (just because of the microphonics).
Time goes by, I've upgraded the DAC/source and my cable and still been using the Bendix since I first bought it. I'm very happy with the Bendix, but the curiosity has grown up in me and the fact that the 5998s have got excellent feedback really make me want to try a Tung-sol 5998 again.
But the thing is, in my country, there are not many audiophiles so I can't sell either the Bendix and 5998 easily if I don't like them. And my budget can only allow me to keep one premium power tube for my Crack, if I order a 5998, I have to sell my Bendix, not to mention it'll take a decent time. So I have to think and choose carefully.
Has anyone had a chance to own both the 5998 and the Bendix and could directly compare or had a A/B testing them? If so, how would you compare the two tubes?
I'm using HD650, but planning to get a HD800 in the near future. My DAC is NAD M51, fed by Audio GD DI-2014. My favorite genres are mainly vocals, jazz, instrumental and country (slow music), I hardly listen to strong or fast music.
Sorry for any grammar mistakes or misleading. English is not my native language and I'm not so good at English so I just tried my best to describe my situation.
Thank you very much. I'm really looking forward to your feedback. All the helps will be greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
Kratos.
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The both look like pretty normal RCA/GE 6080's. They aren't Russian.
Why would the one on the left be an issue?
Well, i thought maybe there are similar looking tubes out there but with different specs, i'm new in this whole tube business still reading abut different tubes and the names and codes are confusing. Anyway, i plugged it in and it sound good too so no problems there :) Still the stock RCA 6080 is my favorite so far
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Hello,
Just completed my crack and its working well!
The tubes that were in the kit work very well....
On the small tube there is a very faint 12AU7 but no manufacturer id that can be actually read etc..
The power tube is a really big fat bottle type of old RCA tube. But I dont see anything on it that would tell me what it really is.
Is there anyway to tell from the pictures or the order what this tube is?
Thanks in advance!
Please note I am very happy with them!!!! Just wanted to know what they are for future ordering and tube hunting! (lol).
-
RCA 6AS7G
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Thanks!! for that 6AS7G.....awesome...I like its "shape" better than the straight bottles and I was indeed suprised when I saw it in the kit!! I hope I can find these somewhere!
Thanks Again!!
It is appreciated!
Alex
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Holy crap Adydula bought a valve amp! Welcome to the dark side :)
If you want to get all anorak about it you can look up the date codes on that tube too, http://pax-comm.com/rcadates.pdf (http://pax-comm.com/rcadates.pdf) If i'm not mistaken BM = April 1967
If you post up some clear pics of the 12au7 somebody may be able to tell you exactly what that is too..
-
Hello!
Ha! Dark Side.... seeing how I just turned a young 66yrs old, I grew up with tubes and all there worst and went thru several tube amps in the last few years and none of them really stood out to me compared to other SS amps.
I guess I got bored and wanted to build something and the Beyer T90s have many people recommending this particular amp for their pairing.
Well sir I am really amazed at how good this amp works with my T90's....I have not heard anything better so far..its really a pleasure to listen and I am finding myself spending way too much time listening once again!
I found several 6AS7G tubes in EBay etc for approx.$25 - $50 etc....
Today I put the first coat of minwax on the case.....
I also experienced one of those tube worts... listening today I kept hearing a low high pitched hum / squeal and it was the power tube doing a resonance dance, a slight tap on the bottle and it went away.... and I am sure it will come and go... just one of the things I love about tubes!!! LOL.
Even with these minor idiosynchrocies....this amp is worth the end result.... just absolutely wonderful music!!
Even my old crappy bright Chicago cd's sound wonderful... Eva Cassidy is like unreal....
Nice to see you here!
Alex
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Youre welcome:)
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Is 6520 the same tube with 5998? And how about Russian 6N13S/6H13C tube? Who know about this tube(6N13S/6H13C) sounding?
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6520 is a 6AS7G variant with better specs, you can of course use them. Some of them even have the same plate structure as a 5998.
6H13S is a very nice tube too, probably the best bang for your buck of them all.
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Just got one- pretty inexpensive and in great shape. While I like the Tung Sol 5998 better, this is an easy tube to live with too-
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I am a fairly new Crack builder/owner and have gone thru many amps, both SS and tubes..... the Crack is indeed a very special amp that really plays very well for me with a set of Beyer T90's. 250 Ohms.
I can't tell what the stock 12AU7 is, there aren't any discernible markings on it but it sounds really great to me. The power tube is the coke bottle RCA and I believe its a 6AS7G.
I bought a $12 12AU7 JJ Electronics from www.boiaudioworks.com this is a place I have bought several tubes from great to deal with and great shipping and the tubes have always come to me well packed and fast, I think there in Tempe AZ. (note I have NO vested interest in them just an FYI and another source for tubes).
I have only listened for a few hours with the JJ but its absolutely a stellar performer, I have a Salk Demo CD that has some really extreme and well mastered flacs and they sound just marvelous...
I would NOT hesitate to use a JJ 12AU7, only $12 for a matched triode tube!
Waiting on my speedball upgrade!
All the best
Alex
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I looked at the 12AU7 that came with the crack, its has a 12AU7 in a octagon shaped label/box. Don't see any dots or anything else on the tube. On the bottom of the tube where the pins come out in the middle of the bottom glass inside the circular pins is the letter "N".
Does this mean anything, I assume this is a RCA tube, its not a clear top.
Alex
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I just got a RCA 6AS7G tube with Made in USA and the number "352" any idea on how to tell the date from this?
Alex
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With a lot of american tubes that have 3digit codes, the first digit is the year, the following two digits are the week number which would imply 52nd week of 1953. But i may be wrong about that...
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An octagon shape around the part number is usually an indication of RCA.
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I think your correct. I got the orignal box it came it and it has a R-CB 16 and (1-49) on the top flap of the box where you open it up. This looks like the timeframe the carton was most likely made. It even smells like a 1950's box!!
I have an old Knight tube tester and it tested very well.
Been playing it for an hour seems ok fine for a good price compared to all the other high dollar stuff thats out there!
Alex
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Thanks...that sounds good to me...compared to the recent "new" JJ 12AU7 they sound pretty much the same to me.
Alex
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One of my 6AS7G tubes is very sensitive and emits a low buzz that I can detect easily. It goes thru several buzz's and wierd sounds while heating up...after 20-40 mins it seem to get better but any real movement or tapping on it you can hear the buzzing sound, its definitely in the tube....even tapping or moving my pc mouse around the amp causes it to hiccup at times!
I had the vendor send a replacement that is a 1948 JAN 6A7SG, that arrived today and I am listening to it at the moment and its like night and day stable and its perfectly quiet!!! Absolutley stunning!!
I called the vendor to see if they had anymore of the JAN tubes...for $15 its a real deal!
Alex
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Hello all,
This is a bit of a stupid question that I am sure has been answered before many times.
Is it fine to drop a Tung-sol 5998 tube straight into a stock Bottlehead crack?
I am not sure if the first post covers the Crack without the Speed-ball upgrade.
Sorry for the stupid question, but I would appreciate a reply.
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Check the first post of this thread. It lists all drop in equivalents.
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I just got a Thompson - CSF 6080WA made in france from, parts connexion in Canada...
$11 with shipping to my door!! A great deal...
Is very solid and stable no bad tendenacies at all.
Not microphonic, no buzzing or wierd noises in the background...
It sounds like the other tubes to me.....no real difference.
Alex
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Check the first post of this thread. It lists all drop in equivalents.
Not quite, it's missing 13D5 & 2399 (maybe others?)
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Ok but it is up to the OP to update it. Or, maybe you could get a moderator to update it.
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hi guys,
I'm planning to get a CBS/Hytron 5814A tube for my Crack after reading many positive feedback on this tube. I've searched for a few days on Ebay and all I found was this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/5814A-CBS-Hytron-12AU7A-Tube-NOS-Tube-Black-Curved-Ladder-Plates-D-Getter-50s-/201367997999?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item2ee277ce2f
Is this tube the famous CBS/Hytron 5814A that everyone has been mentioning?
Cheers,
Kratos.
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(headphones: HD600) I recently got a Winged C tube in and paired with the RCA Clear Top 12AU7, it's blowing my mind compared to the 5998. The soundstage is significantly improved, and I feel like it's much much more musical compared to the 5998's linearity. The 5998 is more dynamic and detailed in general, but the Winged C is so much more enjoyable. It also responds to the input tube completely differently...
Listening with the 5998, my take on my 12AU7 tubes are:
RCA Clear Top: bright and revealing with a good timbre but lacking bass entirely, so meh (worth noting that the 5998/RCA combo with HD650 was absolutely jaw dropping)
Genalex Gold Lion: Awesome soundstage, great bass slam, rich mids, slightly recessed treble, spectacular for rock and metal
Amperex made-in-Holland: Totally natural through and through, sweet sound, the only choice for classical/jazz/anything well produced
Now with the Winged C, it's become:
RCA Clear Top: amazingly clear and revealing and dynamic, incredible timbre and soundstage I didn't know HD600 were capable of, no lack of bass at all
Genalex Gold Lion: meh, a little too mid-centric IMO
Amperex made-in-Holland: warm, smooth, and sweet... still need more time for more
The range of sound available from the Crack-HD600 combination is incredible! Not to mention that the Winged C/RCA combo is so absolutely one of the best and most lifelike things I've ever heard. I was finding it hard to get work done last night because I was just so breathless from how good everything sounded. Definitely too revealing for poorly produced music, although I'd swear the 5998/Gold Lion combo can make bad recordings sound like good recordings.
Still keeping my eye out for a good price on a Tung Sol 7236 then I swear I'm done buying (power) tubes for this thing and it's on to 6SN7 input tubes... when does it end?!
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Hello good people. I built my Crack with couple of years ago, upgraded it later with speedball. I had some problems after speedball, and just dusted and repaired it with a friend (thanks to bottlehead for quick delivery of led´s!) about a week ago after it sitting for 1,5 years. I also purchased second hand HD 600 with Cardas smurf blue cable.
I had a problem with low hum in the right channel, but the amp went dead silent after i switched the original 12AU7 with Philips ECC82 i had lying around. But after listening it for some, i have a little urge to get more body or punchiness to the sound. What would be a good budget upgrade to the tubes, to achieve that?
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Is this tube the famous CBS/Hytron 5814A that everyone has been mentioning?
While that one might be made by Hytron, the ones that folks talk about have red lettering with angled square/D getters that point about 30-45 degrees upwards. The black plates seem to be more well regarded.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-Of-2-NOS-CBS-Hytron-JHY-5814-12AU7-Black-Plate-Same-DC-Tubes-TV7-Tested-/381351365861?hash=item58ca500ce5
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hello! Can I use mullard NOS e88cc / cv 2492 tubes in the input stage for the crack? :)
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hello! Can I use mullard NOS e88cc / cv 2492 tubes in the input stage for the crack? :)
In a word, no. The e88cc / CV2492 is a substitute for the 6922 and 6DJ8 not a 12AU7. You should try and stick to the list of tubes on page one of this thread.
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Well against my "wallet" I bid on an Amperex Bugle Boy 12AU7:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Amperex-Bugle-Boy-12AU7-ECC82-Grey-Plate-Holland-Tube-TV7-Tested-/201400059569?
date code GF8 â–²6J2
Know I need to find out how to read these date codes!!
Alex
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I was at a friend's house today and Listened to Audeze EL-8's and HD800's. Admittedly the amplification was quite different than my Crack. Listened to hi def digital through a Chord Hugo dac/headphone amp. However, gotta say, the HD800's were supremely comfortable and sounded great (I have HD 600's)
Anyone using HD800's? If so wondering what's your tube compliment.
Thanks
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I've got HD800 and for output I use either a Bendix/Chatham graphite plate 6080 or Sylvania Gold Brand 6080GB with a Sylvania 5687 input tube. The 5687 is a different pin out (I installed a switch to let me use different tubes) and I personally like it better than the 12BH7, ECC80, and other 12AU7 variants. I recently got an Amperex and Mullard 12AU7 which I'll try with my 5998 at some point.
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Got the Sylvania 5863's NOS for $14 a matched pair...and they work and sound lovely with a RCA 6AS7G Coke Bottle...absolutely a great sound without spending mega-bucks on WE's and 5998's!
Alex
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I just got a Thompson - CSF 6080WA made in france from, parts connexion in Canada...
$11 with shipping to my door!! A great deal...
Is very solid and stable no bad tendenacies at all.
Not microphonic, no buzzing or wierd noises in the background...
It sounds like the other tubes to me.....no real difference.
Alex
I ordered this tube and they wanted 10 for shipping. On a $10 tube, I thought was ridiculous, so I canceled the order.
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Sorry about that I got free, but slow shipping with no tracking but that was fine for me.
Where are u located..
Alex
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Sheez, i couldn't ship a tube from England for $10 :'(
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Sorry about that I got free, but slow shipping with no tracking but that was fine for me.
Where are u located..
Alex
New Mexico, USA
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Just got an Amperex Bugle Boy 12AU7..ebay auction for $32....the most I have spent to date on tubes...
Its playing now and its really sounding very good with my favorite 6AS7G coke bottle.
I can swear that this is the best sound I have ever heard from my T90's to date....very 3 dimensional ....wow what
a nice soundstage!!
I would buy this tube again!
Alex
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Has anyone tried the NOS National Union Radio Corporation tubes for sale over at osageaudio (http://www.osageaudio.com/Clearance.html)?
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Anyone using HD800's? If so wondering what's your tube compliment.
I always come back to a combo of RCA clear top 12AU7 and a Winged C 6H13C(6N13S).
The Winged C is slightly darker sounding than the 6080s I have tried, I like the synergy with the HD800.
I have a Siemens silver plate ECC82 which sounds very nice and detailed(maybe a tad much top end for a HD800 pairing), but unfortunately it's a bit noisy so I can't stand it in the long run.
Have a Mazda ECC82 on order, will be fun to see what it can do.
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Alex. Glad to hear your report on the bugleboy. I just ordered a 50s NOS bugleboy for my crack and am looking forward to trying it out.
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Lately one of my RCA 6AS7G's with a old 5963 Sylvania have been magical to me at a very low cost compared to the RARE NOS stuff.
The bugle boy is in the same great class to me, I got it for $32 in a eBay auction which I never seem to win, too cheap here this is the most I have ever spent on a 12AU7 type tube!!
But I was a sucker for that Amperex!!! Ha!
The NOS Sylvania 5963 was $7.50!
Alex
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I've got about 25 hours on my Crack and Crackphones now. Initially there was a very slight low level 'ring' in the left channel, for lack of a better term. Last night I swapped out the 6080 (at least I think that's the tube, there are no markings on it whatsoever) that came with the kit for a Winged 'C' 6H13C I got from the tubestore. The amp is now dead quiet and I am blown away by how good this thing sounds. I've got the boards all soldered up for the Speedball but I'm going to try and put 100 - 150 hours on the Crack stock before I install it. I may not make it that far though.
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One very important observation I made was after the speedball was any of the tubes I had that was noisy or had small idiosynchroncies all became quiet, normal , no ringing, no buzzing, no small noises etch... it seems to make things more stable for all kinds of tubes supported but the crack design.
To me this is incredible, I had a 6AS7G that was very finicky and now its a solid performer!
Great upgrade for tubes for me!
Alex
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Well, I got my first tube! A RCA 6AS7G vacuum tube - top getter - black
I got it from Leeds on etsy for $18 shipped. I had a slight channel imbalance with my first tube, and that is gone with this new tube.
I do notice that the tube is extremely sensitive to vibration. The amp sits on my desk, and if I tap my desk, I can hear some distortion through my headphones. I put some DiversiTech 3" square HVAC vibration isolators under the crack, and it really helped. Note, these isolators come in 2, 3, and 4 in sizes, are really inexpensive, and are great. At any rate, is it common for tubes to be ultra sensitive to vibrations?
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Allan,
When I first started listening to the crack I had many sensitivity issues....I could lightly tap on the table near or on the sides of the crack or top plate and hear the knocks or pings from this light tapping.
I had a few 6AS7G tubes that seemed very sensitive as well to any slight bumps of the amp or table....
Some after several minutes of warm up (30 or so) seemed to "mellow" out and not be as sensitive....I chalked it up to vacuum tubes etc.
However lately after installing the speedball update all these tubes now seem not sensitive at all.....I am listening now and can hit the table hard or tap the crack wood panels with absolutely no impact on the sound at all.
I also just found a cold joint in the signal tube and reflowed that and this may have been a part of all this as well.
So you might want to check or reflow the tube socket pins on both tubes to make sure your not getting any impact from a bad or marginal solder junction.
Especially if more than one tube is acting this way.
Alex
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Allan,
When I first started listening to the crack I had many sensitivity issues....I could lightly tap on the table near or on the sides of the crack or top plate and hear the knocks or pings from this light tapping.
I had a few 6AS7G tubes that seemed very sensitive as well to any slight bumps of the amp or table....
Some after several minutes of warm up (30 or so) seemed to "mellow" out and not be as sensitive....I chalked it up to vacuum tubes etc.
However lately after installing the speedball update all these tubes now seem not sensitive at all.....I am listening now and can hit the table hard or tap the crack wood panels with absolutely no impact on the sound at all.
I also just found a cold joint in the signal tube and reflowed that and this may have been a part of all this as well.
So you might want to check or reflow the tube socket pins on both tubes to make sure your not getting any impact from a bad or marginal solder junction.
Especially if more than one tube is acting this way.
Alex
Thanks. I re flowed all the joints when I completed the crack, but I'll look closely when I install the speedball. I've been procrastinating the speedball, so I need to off my duff and get 'er done!
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It was a strange problem with me having the amp work solid for a few weeks, it looked like the LED diode going into pin 8 of the 12AU7 socket must have been a cold or fractured joint from the outside it looked nice ands shiny... but when wiggling it the popping or cracking sound became very reproduceable...as well as rocking the tube in its socket causing the joint to flex and if not soldered well caused this intermittent and who knows what else....
The speedball to me really made the crack another level higher than the original base and much more noticeable than swapping out tubes!!
Alex
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Hi 12AU7 rollers,
do you guys know anything about the B329 valve ? I'm pretty sure it's just a rarely seen British valve code used for a 12AU7. There's hardly any information about it. I think they may have all been made by Mullard (and perhaps Brimar) and were specially selected tubes possibly only for re-sale by Marconi.
Anyway, just wondered if anyone had use one or had any thoughts. I love the 12AU7s - surely must be one of the most diverse tube-types there ever was.
Jeb.
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do you guys know anything about the B329 valve ?
It's indeed just a 12AU7. It looks like potentially it was an early Marconi 12AU7.
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Thanks Paul.
Another question - Do you know what is meant by a "toast" plate ? Is it just another term for a box plate like you see on something like the mullard cv4003 or is it some other shape?
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Thanks Paul.
Another question - Do you know what is meant by a "toast" plate ?
I've only seem that reference made for getter shapes.
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Hmmm cool - yes, visually that makes more sense for a squareish getter shape.
thanks for your help!
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Any recommendations for a good 12au7/ecc82 tube to go with my Mullard 6080 in the Bottlehead Crack+Speedball+HD650?
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FE5KfiOk.jpg&hash=45c4cd683721b2b8cbb63ef21732d7ac593e8ecf)
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Anyone here tried 6211 on their stock crack/will it work?
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Anyone here tried 6211 on their stock crack/will it work?
It will not work in the stock Crack. It will work poorly in a modified Crack, as it has much more gain than the 12AU7.
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It will not work in the stock Crack. It will work poorly in a modified Crack, as it has much more gain than the 12AU7.
Thanks!
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I have a 9 pin socket saver if i cut pin 5 and solder a jumper wire from pin 9 to pin 5 will this work for 6CG7 for the CRACK?
I noticed that the 6CG7 pin 9 is N/C that is why i thought about jumping pin 9 to pin 5 socket saver(Pin 5 is cut so it's not plug in to the crack's pin 5 socket).
Thanks!
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I have a 9 pin socket saver
Socket savers tend to have fatter pins to fit into loose, worn sockets. If you put one into a fresh socket, you are going to stretch out the contacts a bit.
Pin 9 on the 6CG7 often time needs to be grounded, as there's sometimes a shield between the triodes.
See other posts on the forum about various tube adapters, and the relatively low level of satisfaction when using them.
-PB
(If you want to use the 6CG7, just rewire the amp to do so)
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Socket savers tend to have fatter pins to fit into loose, worn sockets. If you put one into a fresh socket, you are going to stretch out the contacts a bit.
Pin 9 on the 6CG7 often time needs to be grounded, as there's sometimes a shield between the triodes.
See other posts on the forum about various tube adapters, and the relatively low level of satisfaction when using them.
-PB
(If you want to use the 6CG7, just rewire the amp to do so)
I will look into it.
Thanks Again!
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Hi i'm running a newly received 5-10hrs tung sol 6as7g and well it definitly fills out the lower mid range and upper bass very nicely but the mid to lower bass just seems to let go its just to over the top, not natural. Im running sppedball but on the big bass notes seems to let go. I wonder if others have thought tha same? Im wondering if there is an alternative out there that gives more than the 6080 but more refined holds back a bit over the 6as7g sort of in the middle?
Thoughts?
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Hi
Just want to know has anyone used a 6f8g via an adaptor on their BHC+SB
And what is your impression on the 6f8g
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Hello all,
Any recommendations for some tubes that sound great with a heavy glow?
Crack without Speedball (might get it in the future though).
Thanks,
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One of these should give you plenty of GLOW i don't know about the sound though. ;D
(https://www.head-fi.org/image/id/7892989/width/900/height/900/flags/LL)
Just Kidding.P:)
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You might want to be a little more specific. What kind of amp do you have? The first thing that came to mind when you asked the question is "mesh plates." Mesh plates allow you to see the filament inside the tube much better. I know they make 2A3's with mesh plate. So if you have a Stereomour, Paramount or similar you could try that.
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Looks like he's got crack without speedball.
6080s and 12AU7s is what he's got.
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Looks like he's got crack without speedball.
6080s and 12AU7s is what he's got.
I guess I should have caught that. Being the Crack tube rolling thread and all. :-[
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I guess I should have caught that. Being the Crack tube rolling thread and all. :-[
That would be correct, sorry for not including that in my original post.
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Need a little help identifying a tube. I was in the first batch of Crack-A-Two-A shipments, and Doc was kind enough to include NOS European tubes with those original orders. I'm having a little trouble figuring out just what I got. The writing on it is all but wiped out, but I think I can make out Made In Holland, but I can't be sure. There's also a date code that doesn't seem to follow the typical Euro tubes date code convention. It's only 3 digits, a triangle followed by 8L. It has narrow, ribbed plates, and a D-shaped getter with a small foil strip.
Any ideas what I'm looking at here? FWIW, it sounds great. :)
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Wanted to add my tube rolling experiences from yesterday ... My build is Crack + Speedball with Alps Blue Velvet pot and Obbligato 70uF Oil Film coupling cap upgrades. Headphones are DT770 250 ohm.
Driver:
Unbranded Chinese 12AU7 - Harsh & cold, worst of the bunch!
EH 12AU7 - Dark & lacking detail
JAN 5963 (came with) - Not bad but also not the best, good middle road tube
RCA Clear Top - Treble bright & lacking bass
Philco 12BH7 - This is the third best tube heard ... ~ equal to Mullard
Brimar (Mullard) 13D5 - Second best, lots of detail, good bass extension, best midrange of all tested
Telefunken 12AU7 - The best of the bunch! Very balanced across freq curve, excellent detail and good bass extension
As for the 6080:
Raytheon 6080WC (came with) - Not bad, again, middle road tube
Mullard 6080 - WOW! The depth and richness of the sound is incredible. It was like a veil was lifted. The bass is much better and deeper/tighter. Detail is incredible! You can hear sticks hitting percussion and fingers on strings.
The verdict for me is Telefunken 12AU7 driver and Mullard 6080 ... enjoy the tube pr0n pic:
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Need a little help identifying a tube. I was in the first batch of Crack-A-Two-A shipments, and Doc was kind enough to include NOS European tubes with those original orders. I'm having a little trouble figuring out just what I got. The writing on it is all but wiped out, but I think I can make out Made In Holland, but I can't be sure. There's also a date code that doesn't seem to follow the typical Euro tubes date code convention. It's only 3 digits, a triangle followed by 8L. It has narrow, ribbed plates, and a D-shaped getter with a small foil strip.
Any ideas what I'm looking at here? FWIW, it sounds great. :)
What does the writing on the white box it came in say?
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There wasn't any writing on the box.
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There wasn't any writing on the box.
Ah, I must have missed that one. The tube in the photo is an Amperex Holland 12AU7, a very good tube indeed!
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Awesome, thanks! I'm loving the hell out of the Crack-A-Two-A with my HD-800s. Eventually I'll start rolling tubes and caps in it, but I'm quite satisfied for now. :)
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The tube in the photo is an Amperex Holland 12AU7, a very good tube indeed!
Doesn't the 'delta' (triangle) code indicate a Philips Copenhagen made tube?
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Doesn't the 'delta' (triangle) code indicate a Philips Copenhagen made tube?
I thought it indicated a dutch made tube?
The below link might help.
http://www.tube-classics.de/TC/Tubes/Valvo%20ECC82/ECC82.htm
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According to the info I've found, an equilateral triangle code is Philips, Copenhagen made. The Heerlen code is a right angled triangle.
e.g this page shows the different codes, scroll down a bit.
http://www.audiotubes.com/mullcode.htm (http://www.audiotubes.com/mullcode.htm)
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Yeah, mine has the right angled triangle, indicating a Heerlen factory. Mine looks just like the first one on the Tube-Classics page.
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Yeah, mine has the right angled triangle, indicating a Heerlen factory. Mine looks just like the first one on the Tube-Classics page.
Thanks, a bit hard to tell from the photo. You scored a nice tube!
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The fingerprints on the plate look like they could possibly be those of Th.P.Tromp himself.
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For tube rolling other tubes than 12au7's, what would you guys suggest?
Any drop-in options that work good via adaptors?
With the R1 resistor mod on speedball boards optimization for the E80CC and 12bh7 is possible, but there must be other options besides these?
Also saw the 5687 switch mod. More options?
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For tube rolling other tubes than 12au7's, what would you guys suggest?
Any drop-in options that work good via adaptors?
With the R1 resistor mod on speedball boards optimization for the E80CC and 12bh7 is possible, but there must be other options besides these?
Also saw the 5687 switch mod. More options?
You can have lots of fun with 6sn7 and 6F8G variants there are some great sounding tubes but you will need the relevant xyz to 12au7 socket adapter.
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6CG7 is a nice tube too i prefer these tube over 12AU7's at least for me anyway.
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6CG7 / 6FQ7 is my favorite too, one of the cleanest sounding of the 9 pins.
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Thanks guys! Bought the needed adapters (4 weeks in transit).
What are the R1 resistances on the speedball boards to use with those?
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Hi all, just joined the Bottlehead crack club :)
I'm curious what power tube my amp came with. It was bought a few months ago and the label says USA with 6080 in an octagon below it. No other text. It sounds pretty good! Thanks
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An octagon around the part number means its an RCA tube.
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Good to know, thanks
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6CG7 / 6FQ7 is my favorite too, one of the cleanest sounding of the 9 pins.
Do you have any particular brand of 6CG7 you prefer?
Thanks!
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Cant say that i do, from the few i have tried they seem to be very similar to each other unlike the 12au7 variants which vary wildly.
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Hey gang. Another very happy Crack owner reporting :-*
Besides the wealth of info I think this thread also lends itself for some tube trading perhaps? I haven't the slightest interest in stacking 'em if they don't please me.
Anyone preferably in Europe who's interested in a TungSol 6080WA (solid graphite) or Mullard CV4003 (M8136)? Very low hours on both.
I'm especially after quality (JHY) CBS Hytron 5814a or something very, very similar. Could be interested in a TungSol 7236 as well.
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It's a bit of a slippery slope when you have a forum like this and you allow trading. The one time Doc B will allow it is when somebody would like to sell a kit they have to upgrade to a new one.
Having said that, here is a place where you could likely find what you're looking for:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/BHExchange/info (https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/BHExchange/info)
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Oh ok. Didn't know and didn't read the rules if there are any. In my opinion there'd be nothing wrong with having, if it need be a subforum that allows for trades. Have this-Want that kind of thing. No biggie though. It's probably not worth our energy to discuss as there are enough other options out there.
Cheers ;)
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The forum rules are the first section of the forum...
http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?board=11.0
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You can have lots of fun with 6sn7 and 6F8G variants there are some great sounding tubes but you will need the relevant xyz to 12au7 socket adapter.
Thanks Jamie! Using your advise i bought my first NOS tubes for the crack :D Let's start rolling.
Using this advise i now have a 6sn7 1578 tube in transit (but already got the adapter).
For the 6F8G i found a pair of Tung Sol black glass round plates (but for those i'm still waiting on the adapter).
Can't wait to get these going. Any tips on optimizing the crack for this sort of tubes?
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Need a little help identifying a 12au7 tube that came with my crack kit
any feedback would be appreciated
Thanks
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Hi everyone,
I have to possibility to try a 12Bh7 tube (12BH7A Raytheon from the 50s) with my Crack (with speedball installed).
Before doing this I just wanted to be 100% sure if it was safe.
So here is my question : Does a 12BH7 tube work properly with a Crack (with speedball) OR does it need more mods to run ?
(For now I have the 6080 stock installed but will plan to try the 12BH7 with a TS 5998 that is on its way).
Sorry if it has been discussed on the older posts. I made my researches but I still have a doubt about it...
Thanks for your answer ! :)
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According to the post Tube Rolling w/Crack (which has been read 230,518 times; an amazing number) the 12BH7 is "Sort-of-a-Drop-In (but not equivalent - for best results, replace plate resistors with Speedball boards)". It just means that the 12BH7 will work but may sound better if one installs a proper valued plate resistor. I have had no problem tube rolling and listening to the 12BH7, very nice sounding tube even without changing the plate resistor.
I have considered installing a switch that would allow the use of the stock and 12BH7 resistor, but didn't think it was worth the effort, the 12BH7 can be an extremely good sounding tube in the Crack.
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Yeah the first page of the Tube Rolling w/Crack is one that I refer the most. :) I wasn't sure about the meaning of "drop in" + about the plate resistors change (if that meant only to have the speedball update installed or if that meant to have to SB installed+others resistors mods on the SB).
I don't know if I'm clear about what was unclear in my mind.. But anyhow with your answer you confirm me it's safe so I'll try the 12BH7. Thanks ! :)
About the switch, I think it probably will take me too much time only to understand what I should do so. So not really an option for me... ;)
Thanks again
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It would help if you could provide photos that clearly show the markings. It's difficult to tell by the internal construction alone.
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It would help if you could provide photos that clearly show the markings. It's difficult to tell by the internal construction alone.
Thank maxhawk
However the printing on the tube itself is difficult with the naked eye
The writing reads on the 1st line is 12, 2nd reads AU7A and 3rd reads U.S.A.
There are no other marking on the tube
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It is a GE tube.
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Thanks heaps lee
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Looking for tube identification, as I keep spending money on various 12AU7 tubes and keep going back to the one that shipped with my kit.
Those are the only markings on it.
It definitely looks like a GE - but what kind?
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It is a GE tube.
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I think Lee is on fire
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Hi all
Been recently using a BHC + SB with Raytheon 6080WB and Mullard e80cc with the R1 resistor mod and have been very positively surprised with its sweet sound quality
My headphones are Beyerdynamic T1 1st gen.
Has anyone been using other e80cc with success?
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Thought I'd chime in on the 6SN7 change. I'm using the 6.3v adapter from the Lowther_Club to go from the 12AU7 to a 6SN7. No noise at all. It certainly didn't hurt the sound and I find it very nice and easy to listen to. It's been awhile since I've been on Crack so I should probably pop the 7316 I was using back in there and see what differences there are. I'm using a "smoked" glass tube. Not any markings to ID it further.
Don't be in a hurry to get this adapter. It ships from China and has taken a full three weeks to arrive with abysmal packing. But it arrived in one piece.
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Hello,
I have a Crack w/ Speedball, currently use a Tung Sol 5998 and Gold Lion 12AU7 (I still own the stock Crack tubes). I just sold my HD600/DT990 for an HD700 but haven't opened and used it yet (I'm home for winter break). Does anyone have any recommendations? I can't find any tips online (besides one guy who recommended a Mullard 12AX7). I suppose I'd like to keep using the 5998 since it was so expensive lol (unless someone strongly recommends a different driver tube) and look into possibly changing my preamp tube (possibly something that will tame the infamous "hot" treble). I listen to almost everything except rap, EDM and country. Alternative/Indie/Rock is probably my favorite. I'm pretty big on mids/vocals. Thanks!
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I have the BH Crack w/ Speedball, Tung Sol 5998, Gold Lion Genalex 12AU7, just got an HD700. Haven't yet tested the headphone-amp pairing, but I was wondering what your opinion is on 12BH7A vs Telefunken ECC82. Thanks!
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With 5998 or 7236 I would go with the 6085(first)or E80CC(second). The 12BH7(A) is an OK sounding tube, better than a lot of the 12AU7's. The 7236 IMHO is the best bargain tube for the Crack, almost as good (or as good) as the 5998 but 25-50% cheaper.
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With 5998 or 7236 I would go with the 6025(first)or E80CC(second). The 12BH7(A) is an OK sounding tube, better than a lot of the 12AU7's. The 7236 IMHO is the best bargain tube for the Crack, almost as good (or as good) as the 5998 but 25-50% cheaper.
Which tube is the 6025? I can't find it anywhere
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Sorry for the typo, it is the 6085 tube.
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Sorry for the typo, it is the 6065 tube.
6065 is a 7-pin pentode. I guess you mean 6085 = E80CC. ;D
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Just had Cataract surgery last week, looks like 6065 on tube, should have looked at the box, sorry. It is a Philips 6085, pinched waist, double horse shoe top getter, made in holland. One of the best sounding tubes I have ever listen to. Have talked to several of the big tube dealers and not one of them has ever seen or heard of this tubes configuration.
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Just another request for some tube identification help. This 12AU7A came with my Crack-a-two-a. Obviously a GE tube, but the label indicates made in Great Britain. I'm thinking maybe a Mullard or Brimar made under license for GE?
No matter what, it sounds wonderful paired up with a Tung-sol 5998.
Thanks in advance.
Stan
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I have the BH Crack w/ Speedball, Tung Sol 5998, Gold Lion Genalex 12AU7, just got an HD700. Haven't yet tested the headphone-amp pairing, but I was wondering what your opinion is on 12BH7A vs Telefunken ECC82. Thanks!
The 12BH7 isn't quite a drop in substitute and the amplifier would need light modifications to use it.
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Just another request for some tube identification help. This 12AU7A came with my Crack-a-two-a. Obviously a GE tube, but the label indicates made in Great Britain. I'm thinking maybe a Mullard or Brimar made under license for GE?
I think that may be a 60's Brimar.
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Thank's PB. Whatever it is, it's well matched with my Tung-sol 5998.
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I got some 5998's coming in the mail, tube rolling has been an expensive venture - I think I'm finally coming to a close though.
Currently using a NOS Mullard CV4003/12AU7 (cryo treated, snake oil? probably) currently paired with a Sovtek "Winged C" 6AS7G which is a winning combo, but I've heard too many things about the 5998's to not give them a go, they were unfortunately the most expensive tubes I will hopefully ever purchase.
EDIT:
Got them in the mail, amazing tube, glad I got 2 - as I guess these will continue to grow in scarcity and continue to increase in price.
Question if anyone knows the answer, one of them actually has some writing on the inside of the tube "g F N", anyone know what it's about? never saw anything like it before:
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I'm tube rolling with the 6080 tubes. Now i got a box of a few 6080's from different brands.
They all sound sort of the same. Wasn't expecting anything from the listed Raytheon JRP6080wb since i had that one with my crack originally and the 6H13S that replaced it was way better.
Now from the box i got, the Raytheon CK6080wb was actually the best by far. Even better than the russian tube (the rest was inferior).
So the question is about my new Raytheon. It has thicker mica's and a sort of support rods around them with place holding all in place that are touching the glass. The code is different and it says: "tested by Bendix" on the back. My question is: What are these plates called? Is this extra support what make it superior?
What do i look for if i want a tube with a similar sound?
The Raytheon that came with crack:
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fep1.pinkbike.org%2Fp5pb13048175%2Fp5pb13048175.jpg&hash=a0c73e6b5a63789af9d769ad8205d5f0a541f2d6)
The different Raytheon:
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fep1.pinkbike.org%2Fp5pb13048176%2Fp5pb13048176.jpg&hash=3376f314b57922c9c819f7892c527de946766e8e)
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That second one looks to have the similar construction to the Bendix Graphite Plate tubes. What are the rest of the codes on the tubes? Specifically is there a 280 for Raytheon, or a 125 for Bendix.
Also describe the sound, i'm wondering if its similar to the graphite plates in being very detailed sounding, but slightly lacking in the low end.
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It says 280 so it's a Raytheon. And from a quick online search it looks like something between a Bendix and a Raytheon.
It uses the Raytheon plates but fused together someway. But for the rest it sure looks like the Bendix tubes with all the supports.
I'm no pro in describing sound. I like it or i don't. It has more bass than other 6080's but not the amount of the russian 6as7g. It's not as boomy as the 6as7g but it's still there, it hits full and hard when needed.
It's really detailed (compared to my other 6080's) but a funny detailed. It also brings forward detailed sounds happening further back and some sounds play around more than with other 6080's. (edit: i think holographic is the word for this) Best of my collection by far.
Using it with a Tung Sol 6f8g round plate tube for best results. It's way less holographic with other tube and the 6f8g is less holographic with other 6080's.
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Hey,
Has anyone used a 6N13P with their crack? If so, i would really like to hear some impressions.
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Hi everyone.
I'm brand new to this whole tube thing. I built my crack back in June and have it paired with my hd600s. I am thoroughly impressed with its sound. However I am getting the itch to do some more tinkering. I read through most of this thread and decided to order some RCA Conn Clear top 12au6 ECC82 along with a Sylvania Gold Brand 6080 vacuum tube - black plates - GB6080. I am excited as a kid on Christmas morning for them to arrive. My issue is that I am having a hard time identifying the tubes that came with my crack. The only marking on my input tube is "Japan 2B" and my power tube says "RCA radiotronelectron tube made in the USA 6313" after doing some searches online I came up with nothing on these. Does anyone have any input on what these are so I can use them as a reference for sound going forward? Thanks so much in advance!
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The 12au7 could be a Hitachi, Matsushita, NEC, or Raytheon to name a few. Post a pic and somebody might be able to identify it.
The output tube is exactly what is says, an RCA 6080 with a 1963 date code.
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Hello,
Don't know if this has been asked before: Is the Sovtek 6AS7G identical to the Svetlana 6AS7G? If not, what are the differences?
Thanks!
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Which tube would offer sub bass extension with a sub bass db boost and without sacrificing too much soundstage or details?
I still haven't done the speedball yet though.
My HD 600's are lacking a bit in bass extension.
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Haven't done any tube rolling but adding the Speedball upgrade was significant on my build.
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I really enjoy the Crack with a 6SN7 tube using an adapter. The 6SN7 I like the best so far is the Ken-Rad VT-231 black bottle. It has a great mid range and extended bass.
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I need to order a input tube 12au7 variant as I think it might be my stock tube might be a source of noise.
I like full body sound, the ones with second order harmonics and low in background noise. Need a recommendation for a tube that is good value and not too expensive.
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From the NOS you never know what you'll get (tried many including name variants like 5814a and 6189w).
The new type tubes i tried were PSVANE and Genalex Gold Lion.
The Gold Lion's are my favorit by far. They're better then all my NOS tubes.
Nice defined and strong bass, airy midrange and smooth treble. Soundstage is great.
Just an easy listen.
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I was going to get a telefunken ecc82 but I read that there new production tubes are manufactored by JJ and not telefunken themselves. Is it okay to still get the new production tube or should I get a nos telefunken? I want to get a quality tube and I am not sure if the new production is any good. Would be good to get the opinion of someone who tried the new tubes.
I also heard a lot of the new production tubes are manufactored by the same plant in russia or china and are just rebranded.
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If you want a real Telefunken made Telefunken you need to seek out an original vintage one. The "new" Mullards, Tung-Sols, Telefunkens, etc. are not the same tubes as the originals. I was advised by Oliver Archut many years ago that some of the materials and processes used in those original tubes were hazardous enough not to be allowed anymore and the new tubes are made with different materials.
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Can we use two 6BL7 with adapter as power tube?
You can use the 6CG7 with the Crack also. Just separate the jumper between pins 4 and 5, then run a wire from pin 9 to whicheven pin (4 or 5) has no wire running to it. The E80CC is another decent choice.
As for the 6080/6AS7 variants, you really need to stay within the heater current limits, that's the key. Tubes like the 6336 will overtax the power transformer. I will test the 6BL7 sometime this week with my Speedball Crack and see how it lines up with the stock operating points.
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Can we use two 6BL7 with adapter as power tube?
I never did try the 6BL7/6BX7. They have the same pinout as the 6080, so there isn't any need for an adapter, but rather to take voltage measurements and to calculate tube dissipation and approximate the output impedance with the BX7/BL7 (which I wouldn't expect to be as optimal as with the 6080).
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Thanks much for the quick response.
There are Dual 6BL7 TO 6AS7 tube converter adapter available now. Curious if it can be used with Crack. Hope someone has more experience than me can test it in the future. I never did try the 6BL7/6BX7. They have the same pinout as the 6080, so there isn't any need for an adapter, but rather to take voltage measurements and to calculate tube dissipation and approximate the output impedance with the BX7/BL7 (which I wouldn't expect to be as optimal as with the 6080).
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As PB said, "...there isn't any need for an adapter." The dissipation and plate current are both low enough to not exceed the ratings for 6BL7 or 6BX7.
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I'm sorry, I really should be more clear. My real question is if we can use a pair of 6BL7 with the Crack.
A pair of these draw 3A, and one 6AS7/6080 draw 2.5A.
Here is a picture of the adapter:
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT-5XaGX9OqyzJ14DdhDkqJsgvC8OuF4hIw42-GEDBZRsSQjEZ_)
As PB said, "...there isn't any need for an adapter." The dissipation and plate current are both low enough to not exceed the ratings for 6BL7 or 6BX7.
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We do understand your question, and the answer is still not to use the adapter, but rather to plug a single 6BL7 into the 6080 socket.
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Thanks Paul.
No problem to use a single 6BL7. However, no way it can beat a 5998 etc by itself.
What's the drawback to use two of this with an adapter?
We do understand your question, and the answer is still not to use the adapter, but rather to plug a single 6BL7 into the 6080 socket.
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The circuit calls for two triodes. You are asking about using four triodes. What circuit are you thinking of - are they paralleled, or something?
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Yes. They are paralleled for Elise or Woo amp. There a lot of discussions going around at Head-fi. A number of people who have those amps report very good results with multiples of the 6BL7 compared to the 6AS7 type tubes.
The circuit calls for two triodes. You are asking about using four triodes. What circuit are you thinking of - are they paralleled, or something?
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Thanks - that helps me understand the question. What follows below is a discussion of just the technical issues, which I hope is helpful. Direct personal experience is going to be more significant - so give it a try and report your results, and we'll all benefit. :^)
The 6BL7 and 6BX7 are rated for 12 watts total dissipation, but up to 10 watts on one triode as long as the total is 12 watts. So for amps that need more than 6 watts dissipation per channel, you would need two in parallel. Crack only dissipates about 2.3 watts per triode so that is not an issue, though it may be with other amps.
The other thing that paralleling two triodes does is double the transconductance (which cuts the source impedance feeding the phones in half). The 6080 has the same transconductance per triode as the 6BL7, but the 5998 has nearly twice the 6080 transconductance. So a paralleled 6BL7 is roughly equivalent to a 5998 in that parameter. I suspect that is the main reason for the audible difference.
There are also (moderate) sonic negatives associated with paralleled triodes, at least to some people, so a good 5998 might be expected to have the edge - but they are expensive, hard to find, and the selection has been picked over for many years. You pays your money and you takes your choice.
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Thanks again for the reply.
Now the question is if the Crack can handle the ~3A heat current of the due tubes need.
Thanks - that helps me understand the question. What follows below is a discussion of just the technical issues, which I hope is helpful. Direct personal experience is going to be more significant - so give it a try and report your results, and we'll all benefit. :^)
The 6BL7 and 6BX7 are rated for 12 watts total dissipation, but up to 10 watts on one triode as long as the total is 12 watts. So for amps that need more than 6 watts dissipation per channel, you would need two in parallel. Crack only dissipates about 2.3 watts per triode so that is not an issue, though it may be with other amps.
The other thing that paralleling two triodes does is double the transconductance (which cuts the source impedance feeding the phones in half). The 6080 has the same transconductance per triode as the 6BL7, but the 5998 has nearly twice the 6080 transconductance. So a paralleled 6BL7 is roughly equivalent to a 5998 in that parameter. I suspect that is the main reason for the audible difference.
There are also (moderate) sonic negatives associated with paralleled triodes, at least to some people, so a good 5998 might be expected to have the edge - but they are expensive, hard to find, and the selection has been picked over for many years. You pays your money and you takes your choice.
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Sorry I missed that! The PT-3 power transformer spec is a maximum of 3.5 amps RMS. That winding is the most highly stressed one, so I cannot recommend exceeding it even though the high voltage winding is lightly loaded. No 5687s, and I'm leery of the 6SN7 used with pairs of 6BL7/6BX7.
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Great. So the spec is the same as the newer PT-5 and PT-7 confirmed by the designer of the transformer. 8)
Sorry I missed that! The PT-3 power transformer spec is a maximum of 3.5 amps RMS. That winding is the most highly stressed one, so I cannot recommend exceeding it even though the high voltage winding is lightly loaded. No 5687s, and I'm leery of the 6SN7 used with pairs of 6BL7/6BX7.
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You could try the paralleled 6BL7 tube adapter in the Crack-a-two-a, which uses a different power transformer that isn't going to be bothered by the additional current demand on the heater winding.
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Great. So the spec is the same as the newer PT-5 and PT-7 confirmed by the designer of the transformer. 8)
PT-5 has a 9-volt winding rated 2.8 amps RMS; PT-7 has a 6.3vCT winding rated 4.0 amps RMS.
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How are these tubes and what config should I use with the Sennheiser HD650 ? And how much these tubes worth ?
What upgrade should I be going for first ? Below are the seller comments
I have built this amp as carefully and meticulously as I can. The circuit is noise-free and all voltage readings are within spec.
A high quality Alps RK27 volume pot has been installed instead of the supplied, which has much better low volume tracking. The output capacitors have been installed on leads for easily upgrading to PIO or film capacitors.
The box is finished in "liquid amber" wood stain and clear polyurethane varnish. I will admit the varnish is not 100% smooth in places and could do with another coat. The chassis plate and transformer bell housing is finished in high-temperature rated matte black.
The following tubes are included:
Power:
RCA 6AS7G (x2)
Svetlana 6H13C (x2)
Telefunken 6080 (this one is a rebranded Sylvania)
Unfortunately all bar the Telefunken have slight microphonics
Input:
RCA 12AU7 (x2)
Phillips Miniwatt 12AU7
Brimar 12AU7 (x3, all different plates)
Electro Harmonix 12AU7
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FuWnxhp1.jpg&hash=4f9599b28f8a9bc461f85cbe5c1aa4383e4ccdc1)
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Hey gang long time no see! I built my Crack/speedball in September 2014 and only now have I tried the almighty Tung Sol 5998. O.M.G! Totally worth the hype! Now, has anyone paired that with the Genalex Gold Lion 12AU7? I'm using the Senn HD650.
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We do understand your question, and the answer is still not to use the adapter, but rather to plug a single 6BL7 into the 6080 socket.
Iam still confuse for this. So we can directly change 6080 eith 6BL7? Any change for the sircuit? I have read some article we must seperate the jumper from pin 4 & 5 then run a wire to them from pin9. So all wire that connect to pin 4 & 5 must be disconnect(open the solder)?
Sorry for this newbie question.
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hi guys, i recently just started trying a different output tube, after 1.5 year of Crack ownership.
i ordered the so much talked about 6H13C winged C Russian tube and tried it with my new HD800S purchase. surprisingly i wasn't all that impressed. there "may" have been a bit more spaciousness, but i don't know if i am dreaming, but i felt like quite a bit of clarity and crispness and cleaness is lost compare to my stock Crack 6080. overall the Russian 6H13C just feels smokier and less precise than the stock 6080. when i switched back to the stock tube, it sounded more engaging and exciting. in terms of spaciousness/soundstage, i am not sure. it might be the same or the Russian tube might be bigger in space, but i am not really sure.
now the problem is, i can't for the life of me find out what my stock tube is. i know it's a 6080 variant. but i can't seem to find any info on it other than that it arrived with my crack in a bubble wrap and it only has a small marking of "FKHK USA" on the glass.
i took several pictures and hoping that some of you pros can help me identify. i would like to order a few more of this stock tube for backup and use it as a baseline.
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Thats very odd, not come across one of those before. With the triple mica supports i would have said its a 6080WA or WB ruggedized version, and the white base is common for Raytheon tubes.
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oh my... does that i mean i have one of the kind 6080. lol.
i tried googling but couldn't find ANY info about the markings... :(
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Pretty sure it is a Sylvania 6080 WB, the white base Raytheon looks nothing like this tube.
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Pretty sure it is a Sylvania 6080 WB, the white base Raytheon looks nothing like this tube.
Thanks Lee!
how positive are you about this. i did a google for Sylvania 6080WB and it does seem pretty close. but sometimes it's hard to tell when people don't take close-up pictures.
either case, thanks for chiming in.
and if anyone else can confirm that'll be even greater.
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I have 5 Sylvania 6080 WB and one Sylvania 6080 Gold Brand, they are identical to your tube, except the Gold Brand has .25" taller glass. Guts are identical. The Sylvania 6080 also have numbered pins.
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I have 5 Sylvania 6080 WB and one Sylvania 6080 Gold Brand, they are identical to your tube, except the Gold Brand has .25" taller glass. Guts are identical. The Sylvania 6080 also have numbered pins.
thanks!.
looks like i'll order 2 or 3 of those for backup. my current stock tube has clocked in about 2k hours roughly.
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You need to purchase a better sounding tube instead of spending your money on a Sylvania 6080 WB. The only 6080 style tube that sounds close to the 5998 is the 7236, it is a computer grade 5998A tube shaped like the 6080. The 6520 is another wonderful sounding tube but you should be saving your money for the Tung-Sol 5998 or Chatham 2399, same tube.
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What he said. I thought the Sylvania GB 6080 was the best of the US made 6080's, but i think the UK made variants are better. The 5998 family is another ball game though, just unfortunate the prices they go for these days.
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thanks for the input guys.
but not that many people have the HD800 S yet. most reviews that i've read are either based on pairing with HD650 and HD800, which is why i was surprised to find the 6AS7G Winged C Russian tube to be underwhelming and muddy.
do you guys think the 5998/7236/6520 will pair well tho?
also, is there a difference between 5998 and 5998A? i see that at Tubestore they sell the 5998A for $30 a pop.
http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/1000-to-5999-Types/5998A
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The 5998 and 5998a are totally different tubes
http://the-key.enix.org/~krystal/review-tube-bottlehead.html
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The 5998 and 5998a are totally different tubes
http://the-key.enix.org/~krystal/review-tube-bottlehead.html
Thanks Jamie,
that's very good to know. wow... that article just opened up another can of worms for me. i have a lot of research to do. but i spent a couple hours last night looking up some of those mid~high tier tubes, and the problem right now seems to be availability. you can't find any retailers selling those tubes. i for example wanted to source a 7236 but can't for the life of me find a retailer that sells it.
do most people now-a-days just buy them from ebay?
and the cheapest 5998 i could find on ebay, which inevitably was used, and rated at 45/45; 40/41 (not sure what those numbers mean), for $125 a pair. maybe if i can just buy ONE tube for $75, but couldn't even locate a seller that sells a single rather than a pair. some even go up to $250 a pair.
this is giving me a headache. :o
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Welcome to the world of tube rolling. Wait until you try to find the best driver tube, way more options!!!!
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i am looking at this tube on ebay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Good-TungSol-6080WB-Graphite-Anode-Twin-Triode-Vacuum-Tube-5-/151673051637?hash=item23506b19f5:g:ZhoAAOSwpDdVSuGU
basically after reading the review on this site:
http://the-key.enix.org/~krystal/review-tube-bottlehead.html
i decided to give the Bendix 6080wb Slotted Graphite Cross Column a try. (since i am really going for the large sound stage). but the original review photos are no longer available. so i don't know if the tube in the auction above is indeed the "slotted graphite Cross colum" or just a solid graphite.
can someone confirm?
thanks
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Not a real bendix 6080. It has been listed on eBay for long long time.
Bendix is a rare tube.
Read my previous post and get some hints.
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i am looking at this tube on ebay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Good-TungSol-6080WB-Graphite-Anode-Twin-Triode-Vacuum-Tube-5-/151673051637?hash=item23506b19f5:g:ZhoAAOSwpDdVSuGU
basically after reading the review on this site:
http://the-key.enix.org/~krystal/review-tube-bottlehead.html
i decided to give the Bendix 6080wb Slotted Graphite Cross Column a try. (since i am really going for the large sound stage). but the original review photos are no longer available. so i don't know if the tube in the auction above is indeed the "slotted graphite Cross colum" or just a solid graphite.
can someone confirm?
thanks
That is a solid Graphite plate tube not the slotted ones I have come across a number of different Graphite shaped solid column tubes cross, round, semi oval. They are normally found branded Tungsol, Chatham or Bendix irrespective of the branding to my knowledge they were all manufactured by Bendix.
They are nice sounding tubes, I have had a couple of NOS ones in the past that have had a tendancy to give loud pops through the headphones during their warming up phase this effect dissapered after a numer of hours use but was a bit scary.
The domino plate 5998 is definitly the better tube and I expect you will be able to pick up one for a similare price you just need to be paitent they do turn up. You would also be able to pick up a GEC or Mullard 6080 for less which are both very good options.
You might like to try the E80CC as a driver instead of a 12au7 a cheap Tungsram with the holes in the side will cost a lot less than a premium 12au7 I liked them immensly and prefered them to some highly rated and expensive 12au7 options. The E80cc are also long life tubes 10,000 plus the 12au7 life span is more often given seen around 2500hrs. They are a straight swap for the 12au7 and work well there is even a really inexpensive (couple of dollars) resister switch mod detailed on the forum which allows fine tuning the Speedball voltages for running the E80cc in the sweet spot.
Link for details and impressions of the mod
http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=5989.0
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thanks guys. sorry you'll have to be patient with me. as i just started rolling tubes last week. :P
so is THIS what i should be looking for if i wanted a slotted graphite Bendix 6080wb?
and i'll be sure to keep my eye out for a TS 5998 Domino plate in the future. :)
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thanks guys. sorry you'll have to be patient with me. as i just started rolling tubes last week. :P
so is THIS what i should be looking for if i wanted a slotted graphite Bendix 6080wb?
and i'll be sure to keep my eye out for a TS 5998 Domino plate in the future. :)
Yes.
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Jamie did you say the E80CC is a direct replacement for the factory driver tube? if so, i think i can get my hands on a gently used on through the forums. and how would you describe the sound of the E80CC compare to a stock 5963 which came with my stock crack. as i understand the 5963 is a computer tube version of the 12au7. thanks!
EDIT: and thanks for the response attmci :)
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Jamie did you say the E80CC is a direct replacement for the factory driver tube? if so, i think i can get my hands on a gently used on through the forums. and how would you describe the sound of the E80CC compare to a stock 5963 which came with my stock crack. as i understand the 5963 is a computer tube version of the 12au7. thanks!
EDIT: and thanks for the response attmci :)
Yes PB has confirmed its ok to use.
I would say it a fast open and clear sounding tube with better resolution than any 12au7 I have tried (and I have rolled a lot) it also has superb sound staging. Well worth a try if you can get a used one at a decent price the only 12au7 I have that came close was the Mullard CV4003 box plate (British 12au7 equivalent) which is highly regarded the E80cc is half the price just as good if not better and will last four times as long!
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mullard-12AU7-ECC82-CV4003-tube-/121935877158?hash=item1c63f1d426:g:cZoAAOSwxp9W9afD
http://www.tubemaze.info/tungsram-e80cc/
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Thanks Jamie!
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Lee,
i got some backup replacement JAN Sylvania 6080WB arrived in the mail today. and sure enough they do look identical down to the rods and details.
thanks so much!. now at least i have a backup and baseline to work with.
i also bought some 2nd hand TS 6080WB from a forum member on HeadFi. it was a package deal that includes a Phillips E80CC, Amerpex ECC82, and a Mullard ECC82. i have no idea what the latter two were, but since it's a good package deal i just told the guy i would pick them all up. the TS 6080WB looks to be a solid graphite, but oh well, be nice to experiment. :)
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the only 12au7 I have that came close was the Mullard CV4003 box plate (British 12au7 equivalent) which is highly regarded the E80cc is half the price just as good if not better and will last four times as long!
Although I have not tried a E80CC (might have to soon) I have tried several Mullard variants, and also found the CV4003 box plate to be excellent, however.. I recently acquired a Brimar CV4003 and I found it notably, maybe even substantially better than the Mullard. It's paired with a TS 5998.
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guys, is there a spec on how much voltage the power tube socket can support? is it 3v? i understand that a single 6080 or 6AS7 is 2.5v. i am just wondering how high the crack can support.
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I will assume you are asking about current in amperes, not voltage.
The sockets per se are not rated for current capability. It's the power transformer which has limits, due to heating. Heating increases as the square of the current, so there is not much wiggle room.
The PT-3 power transformer can supply 3.5 amps maximum. From this you must subtract the current of the driver tube heater - 12AU7 is only 0.3 amps, but a 5687 for example is 0.9 amps. The remainder can be used to heat the power tube.
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yeah, you're right. silly me. i meant Amp. lol.
this is good info. i've been reading up a lot about using different tubes, or two lower power tubes through a converter. so i was just wondering how much power the crack can support. sounds like there's not much room above the stock configuration.
in your opinion, and i won't hold it against you or anyone. but what's the worse case scenario when someone overloads the transformer. in an exaggerated example, say if someone were to put a hypothetically 5 amp powertube into the socket, and knowing that the transformer in this case only supports up to 3.5amps. what's the worse case scenario? i heard that the transformer can catch fire. but will it take the headphone with it?
basically i've been reading up a lot on using two lower amperage tubes in place of one power tube, but there's a chance that the total amperage in place of the power socket will exceed the stock 6080 slightly, which i believe to be 2.5 amps.
like all things, i always try to read up and research as much as possible before doing anything. information is friend. :)
btw, and is that 3.5 amp based on a 12 volt draw?
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When a transformer overheats, the usual failure is that of the insulating materials - internal short circuits of various sorts. That includes shorts to the core and chassis, making it a major safety risk. Don't do it!
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btw, and is that 3.5 amp based on a 12 volt draw?
The winding is a 6.3V winding which will supply 3.5A.
There's a little bit of current headroom on that winding, but since you haven't been specific about what you're up to, we can't weigh in to say whether or not you will damage your transformer.
-PB
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Thanks guys.
basically through a friend's recommendation, i started looking into the possibility of using two tubes that'll possibly result in 3 amps total at the power socket. so sounds like it might still be under the ceiling of 3.5 amps total if i keep the driver slot with 12AU7 or E80CC, which both are 0.3 amps.
i just don't want to damage my brand spanking new HD800 S. that's my biggest concern. will over loading the transformer result in damaging the headphone? not that i am looking to kill my amp or being suicidal with the amp. but in my case it's easier to replace an amp than another HD800 S.
thanks!
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Your calculations are correct, should be no problem.
FWIW, we did play around with 7233 triodes a few years ago. Kind of halfway between 6080 and 5998.
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Thanks for the info Paul :)
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We are always happy to hear that people are experimenting. And when they do I am reminded to mention that in trying this kind of thing the builder takes full responsibility for their actions. The guys are advising you as they can with the info provided, but we can't guarantee the result. My advice is do not test whatever you cook up with your HD800Ss. Use a set of headphones you can live with sacrificing first, to make sure it all works the way you want.
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THanks Doc, will keep that in mind. :)
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Hey guys, completely new to this and i have a crack+speedball running with hd800's and using a Raytheon 6080wb + Mullard 12AU7. Wondering what i should upgrade next on it? Would going from a 6080wb to a 5998 be a noticeable upgrade?
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guys, so today i just received a whole bunch of tubes. Tunsol 6080wb graphite (looks like there is a slot inside the graphite too), a Phillips Miniwatt E80CC, Mullard ECC82, a Amperex ECC82.
thus far i am not too big of fan of the ECC82s, in particular the Mullard one, which sounded way too soft. the Amerex ECC82 was a bit better, but not as dynamic as the stock 5963.
but the Phillips E80CC was something different!. and a did a quick search on this tube on the forum and sure enough confirmed my observation. it's a LOT more dynamic, although almost pushes everything forwarded. the bass is better, but also made the mid and treble more forward as well. overall like someone turned up the volume.
1. i know you guys said that the E80CC can be used in place of the driver socket, but can this be used long term safely? people say it has a higher current than stock 12au7/5963. how much higher are we talking? the stock 12au7 is .3 amp, how much higher are we talking?
2. some of the posts suggested that for best result, you have to change resistors. what does best result mean? will it burn down my headphone in the long run without a changing of resistors? or are we just talking that it puts extra load on the power tube that it decreases power tube life? Doc?
keep in mind that i have a bone stock Crack no speedball
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Your observation that the e80cc has more gain is correct.
1. The E80CC is a sort of drop-in as long as the speedball CCS boards are installed.
2. The resistor changes are meant for the resistors on the CCS.
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thanks for the info.
do you think any damage could be done without the resistor mod? i did try out the E80CC last night for an hour or two. not sure.
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I'd only use the e80cc/12bh7 with the speedball build into crack.
The resistor mod isn't necessary but a worthwhile upgrade.
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I've had my Crack & Speedball since 2011 with the original tubes. I was getting some fluttering sounds over the last few months, so just replaced both tubes. Based on the 1st post in this thread, I went with the Russian 6H13C (6AS7G) and a JJ Electric 12AU7 Gold from thetubestore.com.
I started by just replacing the 6080 with the 6H13C and while that resolved the fluttering, I've noticed that the 6H13C is significantly hotter than the original 6080 that came with the kit. The chassis plate is hot to the touch - it's not burning hot, but it's definitely quite a bit hotter than it used to be. The tube itself is significantly hotter - you can feel the heat coming off of it when you hold your hand about an inch away. The caps on the bottom are warm to the touch.
Is it expected that the 6H13C will be significantly hotter than the 6080? How do I know if it's too hot? I'm also concerned about how the additional heat might impact the life of my Crack.
It sounds phenomenal, but just curious about the heat.
Thanks!
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...
Is it expected that the 6H13C will be significantly hotter than the 6080? How do I know if it's too hot? ...
Normally there would be no difference. The way to tell is to do the voltage checks.
It's possible the old tube was running at a cooler operating point as it neared the end of its working life.
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It could also just be that the tube has a different structure that changes the radiation pattern around it. Unless you are seeing glowing red plates it's not something to worry too much about. The fourth law of thermodynamics is - tubes get hot.
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Awesome - thanks for the quick feedback.
Turning it back up to 11 and rockin' out.
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If a 50s RCA black plate 12BH7 was extremely microphonic (even touching the headphone cable results in a tinging noise) in a Speedballed Crack amp, was that the fault of the tube or the amp? The output tube I was using was mildly microphonic with a quiet 12au7 up front. I could barely hear a tap on the chassis plate. I tried a quieter output tube, but it was still very sensitive on the input tube.
The seller is kind of brushing it of as it being due to higher gain in a circuit that normally uses 12au7 or being due to a component in the circuit. After initially offering a replacement. (edit: we worked it out) still curious about microphonics with the SB installed though.
I don't know enough about this to know if that warrants a refund or exchange, or not. Any advice?
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That is a solid Graphite plate tube not the slotted ones I have come across a number of different Graphite shaped solid column tubes cross, round, semi oval. They are normally found branded Tungsol, Chatham or Bendix irrespective of the branding to my knowledge they were all manufactured by Bendix.
They are nice sounding tubes, I have had a couple of NOS ones in the past that have had a tendancy to give loud pops through the headphones during their warming up phase this effect dissapered after a numer of hours use but was a bit scary.
I have a number of Bendix 6080WB tubes, most are slotted ones, and never have the "loud pop" problem. The non-slotted tubes may take like 20 min to warm up. These are very nice power tubes.
The domino plate 5998 is definitly the better tube and I expect you will be able to pick up one for a similare price you just need to be paitent they do turn up. You would also be able to pick up a GEC or Mullard 6080 for less which are both very good options.
You might like to try the E80CC as a driver instead of a 12au7 a cheap Tungsram with the holes in the side will cost a lot less than a premium 12au7 I liked them immensly and prefered them to some highly rated and expensive 12au7 options. The E80cc are also long life tubes 10,000 plus the 12au7 life span is more often given seen around 2500hrs. They are a straight swap for the 12au7 and work well there is even a really inexpensive (couple of dollars) resister switch mod detailed on the forum which allows fine tuning the Speedball voltages for running the E80cc in the sweet spot.
Link for details and impressions of the mod
http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=5989.0
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If a 50s RCA black plate 12BH7 was extremely microphonic (even touching the headphone cable results in a tinging noise) in a Speedballed Crack amp, was that the fault of the tube or the amp?
The tube, especially if you have a bunch of 12AU7's that don't exhibit this behavior in your Crack.
The seller is kind of brushing it of as it being due to higher gain in a circuit that normally uses 12au7 or being due to a component in the circuit. After initially offering a replacement. (edit: we worked it out) still curious about microphonics with the SB installed though.
The difference in gain between the two is less than 2dB. There are no components in the Speedball that are microphonic. If anything, microphonics should be less apparent with a lower gain tube (the 12BH7).
I don't know enough about this to know if that warrants a refund or exchange, or not. Any advice?
This depends a fair amount on whether the seller ever mentioned that he had listened to the tube. If the tube was new in a sealed box, and turned out to be microphonic, that's just bad luck.
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Is a Tung-Sol 6336B compatible with Crack? I was told it was a 6as7g equivalent, but want to double check before I try it
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Nope, it draws way more current. Whoever told you that does not know much about tubes.
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Thanks Doc! I don't know that much myself. It didn't sound right, so I'm glad I asked
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The tube, especially if you have a bunch of 12AU7's that don't exhibit this behavior in your Crack.The difference in gain between the two is less than 2dB. There are no components in the Speedball that are microphonic. If anything, microphonics should be less apparent with a lower gain tube (the 12BH7).This depends a fair amount on whether the seller ever mentioned that he had listened to the tube. If the tube was new in a sealed box, and turned out to be microphonic, that's just bad luck.
Thanks, that's what I thought. It was NOS and tested very well. The seller and I came to a very fair agreement.
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Here is an interesting tube for you collectors out there. I have a few Gold Aero tubes in 6CG7 and 6DJ8 form and they all test with amazingly high emissions and perfectly matched sections. From what i was able to find out they cherry picked the best tubes they could find from a variety of manufacturers, then graded and branded them. Granted they started life as lowly GE 5998A's but i could'nt resist picking one up to see how it performs.. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/172262170880 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/172262170880)
@Doc, would look mighty pretty in a limited edition walnut cased Crackatwoa :)
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Macandmar, Thanks for the info. Just ordered one. I'm new to tube rolling the Crack, but was moderately active with my old Rogue Cronus Magnum. In my few months with the Crack I've tried a TungSol 6520 and a new Svetlana 6AS7G. Still trying to figure out what I like best.
Have another tube issue that I would love some input for. Have also rolled in a Mullard NOS 12AU7. Always felt they were a guaranteed winner in any tube gear. I love the sound but would like a little less gain so that the volume was a tad easier to adjust. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks and happy holiday to all,
Alan
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I have been listening with the Raytheon VT-231 using a Garage1217 adapter for the last week or so and oh my god, the soundstage is spectacular. I now understand what people mean by 3d soundstage. (Listening with modded HD650)
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I managed to build the crack+speedball a year ago, but I know nothing about tubes/tube rolling. Anyways, a picture fell off of the wall and landed on my tubes completely shattering them today. Listening to music is a daily activity for me and I love my crack, so I was hoping I could get some recs for some good replacement tubes, and where in the world I would buy them. I'm down to upgrade as well. Thank you!
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For the universe's compiled Crack tube compendium, read here:
[urlhttp://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=663.0;topicseen][/url]
Most tube vendors and eBay generally have wide selections. If you post your location, a nearby Bottlehead may have spars to sell and/or loan to get you back to the music!
Cheers,
Geary
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My budget recommendation for a power tube is the Russian 6H13C (Winged C). Four of those cost about 30$.
It is much better compared to the normal 6080's. More air, harder hitting tighter bass, and good details (I prefer it over my RCA 6as7g).
For the input tube i'd recommend buying locally. Here in The Netherlands i'm now using an NOS Amperex 12au7 bugle boy.
Found those for 3-5$ or something and they do sound great.
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My budget recommendation for a power tube is the Russian 6H13C (Winged C). Four of those cost about 30$.
It is much better compared to the normal 6080's. More air, harder hitting tighter bass, and good details (I prefer it over my RCA 6as7g).
For the input tube i'd recommend buying locally. Here in The Netherlands i'm now using an NOS Amperex 12au7 bugle boy.
Found those for 3-5$ or something and they do sound great.
WOW, that's a great price for a 12au7 bugle boy. How about a 7316 (one of the best 12au7 tubes)?
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Those can be found for +-100-150€/pair. So since i don't pay that sort of money for tubes i've got no idea how they sound.
If i'm correct it's just the "better" computer version of the normal 12au7 from Amperex.
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I bought a Telefunken 6080WA on eBay and was told that it tested 110/110 on a B&K with no gas and no shorts. When I plugged it into my Crack, the heaters glowed brightly and there was a blue flash with a popping sound. Upon seeing that I shut the amp down. Does that sound like a bad tube?
The bad news is that after re-installing the old tubes, I had no sound in the left channel and intermittent crackling in the right, so I trued an old crappy set of headphones and they seem to work fine, so it looks like I blew out a set of 600ohm Beyerdynamic drivers.
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A blue flash and popping would tend to suggest gas. Is the silver getter still silver, or is it turning white?
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A blue flash and popping would tend to suggest gas. Is the silver getter still silver, or is it turning white?
All silver
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I bought a Telefunken 6080WA on eBay and was told that it tested 110/110 on a B&K with no gas and no shorts. When I plugged it into my Crack, the heaters glowed brightly and there was a blue flash with a popping sound. Upon seeing that I shut the amp down. Does that sound like a bad tube?
The bad news is that after re-installing the old tubes, I had no sound in the left channel and intermittent crackling in the right, so I trued an old crappy set of headphones and they seem to work fine, so it looks like I blew out a set of 600ohm Beyerdynamic drivers.
Plug your 600 ohm headphone to another source to see if it works.
NOS tubes may give you a "pop" but not flash. Try to clean the pins and give it another try (of cause use your crappy headphone)
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The 600ohm set only has one channel when plugged into other devices, so they're definitely shot. I'm not going to try that tube again and risk damage to the amp.
I guess it's time to get a tube tester. Any recommendations?
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I guess it's time to get a tube tester. Any recommendations?
Plug new tubes into the amp without headphones connected.
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One more tube rolling question. In a lot of 12au7's I bought on ebay is a GE JG-5814A. Is that a drop in equivalent to the 12au7?
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The 600ohm set only has one channel when plugged into other devices, so they're definitely shot. I'm not going to try that tube again and risk damage to the amp.
I guess it's time to get a tube tester. Any recommendations?
Sad to learn a headphone could be killed by a bad tube.
I have a Jackson 648. http://tubesound.com/2008/01/09/rebuild-calibration-of-jackson-648a/
There are a lot of good tube testers on the market. Make sure they had been calibrated so you can get correct readings.
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One more tube rolling question. In a lot of 12au7's I bought on ebay is a GE JG-5814A. Is that a drop in equivalent to the 12au7?
Yes. I am using a CBS JHY 5814A now.
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Yes. I am using a CBS JHY 5814A now.
Thanks for the confirmation!
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Any suggestions for a good replacement tube and online vendor?
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Here is an interesting tube for you collectors out there. I have a few Gold Aero tubes in 6CG7 and 6DJ8 form and they all test with amazingly high emissions and perfectly matched sections. From what i was able to find out they cherry picked the best tubes they could find from a variety of manufacturers, then graded and branded them. Granted they started life as lowly GE 5998A's but i could'nt resist picking one up to see how it performs.. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/172262170880 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/172262170880)
@Doc, would look mighty pretty in a limited edition walnut cased Crackatwoa :)
I bought one of these as my first tube option for my Crack with Speedball. Im finding it hard to compare because I get a lot more volume out of the Gold Aero branded tube. But its also a more dynamic, less mellow sound than the stock tube. A very clear difference in presentation, but cant say one is clearly better yet
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Hi again,
I just got a Tung Sol 5998 output tube from eBay. The weird thing is that when the volume is all the way to minimum, a loud buzzing comes from the headphones. It works if I turn it up, but this seems rather concerning that something is wrong with the tube. Is this something that happens occasionally with old tubes? My pop is an old radio tech and he had never heard of one doing something like this. No other tubes do this. Should I return the tube?
I do have a 6sn7 in the input tube socket with an adapter, but it was fine with the Cetron 7236 I was using before the 5998.
Edit: It doesn't make the noise with a 12au7 in the 9pin socket. Is using a 6sn7 adapter and a 5998 output tube a mismatch for some reason?
Thanks for any advice
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Hi again,
I just got a Tung Sol 5998 output tube from eBay. The weird thing is that when the volume is all the way to minimum, a loud buzzing comes from the headphones. It works if I turn it up, but this seems rather concerning that something is wrong with the tube. Is this something that happens occasionally with old tubes? My pop is an old radio tech and he had never heard of one doing something like this. No other tubes do this. Should I return the tube?
I do have a 6sn7 in the input tube socket with an adapter, but it was fine with the Cetron 7236 I was using before the 5998.
Edit: It doesn't make the noise with a 12au7 in the 9pin socket. Is using a 6sn7 adapter and a 5998 output tube a mismatch for some reason?
Thanks for any advice
I have the exact same issue as you, but unfortunately never figured out the reason why. It happens only at volume 0, and only when a 5998 is paired with a E80CC / 6SN7 / 12BH7. I believe a few others have experienced this phenomenon too.
What I do is to avoid volume 0. Everything works perfectly, and the sound improvement from switching to e80CC (from 12au7) is more than worth it.
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I have the exact same issue as you, but unfortunately never figured out the reason why. It happens only at volume 0, and only when a 5998 is paired with a E80CC / 6SN7 / 12BH7. I believe a few others have experienced this phenomenon too.
What I do is to avoid volume 0. Everything works perfectly, and the sound improvement from switching to e80CC (from 12au7) is more than worth it.
Thanks for the confirmation of the issue on other amps. It does sound good with the 6sn7, but I like the 12au7 too.
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More Gold Aero goodness on ebay, this time some E80CC tubes http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/272312847324 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/272312847324)
I received the Gold Aero 5998A yesterday and from the brief listen its a very clean and detailed sounding tube, and tested with perfectly matched sections. Need to spend some more time with it to form an opinion, but so far it seems to do a lot right, and not a long wrong.
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More Gold Aero goodness on ebay, this time some E80CC tubes http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/272312847324 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/272312847324)
I received the Gold Aero 5998A yesterday and from the brief listen its a very clean and detailed sounding tube, and tested with perfectly matched sections. Need to spend some more time with it to form an opinion, but so far it seems to do a lot right, and not a long wrong.
The guy got a neg. feedback, and changed his user name on ebay.
He also labeled Russian 6H13C tube as Mullard "6as7g" :
Link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/6AS7G-Mullard-NOS-3-Tubes-421A-5998-7236-6080-Little-Bear-P8-Upgrade-Component-/172264901551?rmvSB=true&nma=true&si=F73E1xNo0JlESKzU5H4ZSD1dweA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
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Its the same seller, he just setup a second account. Those modern Mullards are manufactured by Sovtek as i believe they now own the brand name.
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Its the same seller, he just setup a second account. Those modern Mullards are manufactured by Sovtek as i believe they now own the brand name.
In the picture, it says "Made in England". Obviously fake tubes.
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I've got some nice NIB RCA cleartop 6fq7/6cg7 tubes knocking around and I've seen mentions in this thread of people using them but I'm unsure of what rewiring (if any) is required to get these to work? Am I totally off base with this? I have speedball installed.
I love the way these sound in my Lyr and I'd be interested to see how they sound in Crack.
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They have a different pinout so not plug and play. The best option is to source an adapter like these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/201398493602 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/201398493602)
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They have a different pinout so not plug and play. The best option is to source an adapter like these
thanks for the suggestion. Wired my own adapter using an old socket saver (removed pin 4 from the base and soldered a jumper from pin4 to pin 9) and and the 6cg7 is working great! sounds fantastic, voltages look nominal. Thought it wasn't working at first but it turns out headphones need to be plugged in to get sound. :)
edit: the RCA 6CG7 really sounds great, been listening to it all day. Nice and warm with just enough detail to fill things out. I've got a couple cheapy Sylvania 6gu7's I'm thinking of trying as well but the cleartop RCA just sounds so good I can't bring myself to turn it off.
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I have two tubes that I purchased recently that are acting strange. One is a 12au7 that occasionally produces a loud buzzing sound in the left channel. The other is a 6080WA that produces an intermittent crackling sound. Both tubes test fine with no shorts or gas. None of my other tubes have this problem. Is this just two examples of noisy tubes?
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Tubes that are both popular and out of production are a diminishing resource. So they are "picked over"; many so-called new old stock tubes have been tested and rejected by conscientious dealers who want to offer tubes they can guarantee to have low noise and other features. Those rejects don't always go to the landfill, they get sold to less scrupulous dealers. So the pool of available tubes acquires a greater proportion of defectives, and it gets worse over time.
That said, sporadic noises are often due to problems outside the tube, such as weak connections on the socket or marginal solder joints. A different tube may have slightly different pins, so some will work and others won't even if they are all good tubes.
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Paul, thanks for the response. I suspect it's an issue with the pins. The 12au7 did seem to slide into the socket very easily. All of my other 12au7's fit very snug in the socket.
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Hello,
I have a few questions. I am very new here and apologize for my lack of knowledge. It is hard to extract this all from the thousands of posts in this forum (which is certainly fun to read and very informative).
I just finished a crack with speedball, my first DIY build. I am really happy how it sounds fed by my Schiit Gungnir MB. Before building it I thought that I should buy a couple of cheaper tubes just to compare a bit and see if I can hear differences at all. In particular, I bought
Tubeampdoctor 12AU7WA / E82CC TAD Premium Selected
Philips 6080WC
6AS7G / 6N5P Shuguang
I tried different combinations of these tube with each other and with the stock tubes. It turns out that whenever one of the new tubes is in the system, the amp sounds really bad. The soundstage collapses, it sounds shouty, no air etc. It is not subtle, it really ruins the sound. The stock tubes in contrast sound excellent, despite the fact that the input tube is very sensitive to vibrations.
My questions:
Would you expect this kind of difference?
Do I need to burn the new tubes in for many hours (I used them a couple of hours only) before I can really tell?
I cannot hear any problems during music, but is the stock input tube microphonic if it maks a tapping sound when touching it?
Would you then try to replace the input tube?
Most importantly, what are the stock tubes? The labels are rubbed off and I would love to stock up on them.
How long will the original tube set last? Do the stock tubes measure NOS?
While there are many recommendations to go to Tung Sol 5998 and other tubes that are close to the price of the Crack itself, is there a recommendation for an affordable upgrade for the 6080?
I am very happy that the stock tubes are so satisfying. It shows how much bottlehead cares when they put together your parts. No parts missing either. The only problem occurred when I broke one of the tiny LEDs, but this was easily fixable.
Thank you!
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Tubeampdoctor 12AU7WA / E82CC TAD Premium Selected
Philips 6080WC
6AS7G / 6N5P Shuguang
I tried different combinations of these tube with each other and with the stock tubes. It turns out that whenever one of the new tubes is in the system, the amp sounds really bad. The soundstage collapses, it sounds shouty, no air etc. It is not subtle, it really ruins the sound. The stock tubes in contrast sound excellent, despite the fact that the input tube is very sensitive to vibrations.
My questions:
Would you expect this kind of difference?
Do I need to burn the new tubes in for many hours (I used them a couple of hours only) before I can really tell?
I cannot hear any problems during music, but is the stock input tube microphonic if it maks a tapping sound when touching it?
Would you then try to replace the input tube?
Most importantly, what are the stock tubes? The labels are rubbed off and I would love to stock up on them.
How long will the original tube set last? Do the stock tubes measure NOS?
While there are many recommendations to go to Tung Sol 5998 and other tubes that are close to the price of the Crack itself, is there a recommendation for an affordable upgrade for the 6080?
A lot of new tubes will need 50-100 hours to settle in and sound their best. The tubes that come with the Crack are old stock (mostly American) tubes. They are tested for transconductance prior to shipping. Some of these old stock tubes may be microphonic, but this isn't endemic to any particular variant of old stock 12AU7.
I would expect the 12AU7 provided to last several tens of thousands of hours. I have less experience with running 6080's long term. I could see reasons to argue that it may last a bit longer than the 12AU7.
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After messing around with the clear top RCA 6CG7 I found I enjoyed the sound (bassy and warm) but I felt like I was missing detail. I've read good things about the e80cc in this thread so I figured I'd give that a shot. First I tried the e80cc without any modifications and it sounded pretty good but the noise floor was significantly higher and while the detail was there it just didn't sound quite right.
After that I changed out the R1 resistors on the small board with 1.7k's as many users suggested. This one change made all the difference in the world. Dead quiet and clear as a bell. The e80cc is low distortion and very detailed. The difference is really impressive. Seems to be a soundstage improvement as well, but that could just be due to the improved clarity.
Anybody else running e80cc's in their crack? Anything else I should change out to make the e80cc happier?
Next I was thinking of trying a 12BH7 but I'm unsure if I would need to change out the R1 resistors again?
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Hi I just finished building my crack+speedball. I was pretty sad that once the speedball was installed, my crack lost a bit of mellowness which was a quality I really liked. On the other hand everything became tight and involving.
Anyways are there any 12au7 tubes that brings back that "laidbackness" of stock crack? Or any other tubes you guys generally recommend for a newcomer?
Edit: My question was pretty vague. Laidbackness as in a tube that has a bit more rolloff in the treble region, isn't as tight or punchy in the bass, and a bit more airy. I don't know how to really describe the stock crack besides mellow and laidback.
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Hi I just finished building my crack+speedball. I was pretty sad that once the speedball was installed, my crack lost a bit of mellowness which was a quality I really liked. On the other hand everything became tight and involving.
Anyways are there any 12au7 tubes that brings back that "laidbackness" of stock crack? Or any other tubes you guys generally recommend for a newcomer?
Edit: My question was pretty vague. Laidbackness as in a tube that has a bit more rolloff in the treble region, isn't as tight or punchy in the bass, and a bit more airy. I don't know how to really describe the stock crack besides mellow and laidback.
I took the speedball out since for me it ruined what I liked about the stock circuit. Vocal and instrumental echoes and reverb etc were getting over powered by the attack of the sound with the speedball and it hurt my ears to listen for a decent amount of time.
Going with a garage1217 6sn7 adapter and a nice sounding 6sn7 plus a 5998 output tube gave me a sound I really enjoy. Do be aware that this combo causes a loud buzz from the headphones if the volume is turned down all the way, which is remedied by just never turning it all the way down.
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Did you make any other modifications to use the adapter? The adapters I tried some years back were a waste. Also what are you guys using as 6sn7 tubes? (primarily with a 5998 and Bendix)
I can't use my Crack very often now, but I did get the impression I preferred the stock Crack over Speedball too
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Did you make any other modifications to use the adapter? The adapters I tried some years back were a waste. Also what are you guys using as 6sn7 tubes? (primarily with a 5998 and Bendix)
I can't use my Crack very often now, but I did get the impression I preferred the stock Crack over Speedball too
No mods to the adapter. I got the $25 garage 1217 adapter that is noted to work with the BH Crack.
I've got a late 70s NOS RCA 6SN7GTB installed now.
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guys..
what's the difference between a Tungsol 6080wb and a Bendix 6080wb
based on this listing, there' s a HUGE price difference.
http://vacuumtubes.net/RES%20Audio%20pages/6080.html
few months ago i bought a Tungsol 6080wb slotted graphite tube from a head-fi forum member and i thought i got a great deal. please see the attached three pictures. and to be frank, it sounded better than the stocker Sylvania 6080wb that came with the amp. the tube clearly has the markings on the bottom metal part of Tungsol 6080 on it. and it's graphite column with slotted hole in the middle.
but now i am seeing this huge price difference between the red lettering Bendix 6080wb on the glass slotted tube vs the TS 6080 slotted tube i got. did i buy the wrong tube? i thought all Tungsol 6080 are the same as Bendix 6080 they're just rebranded. but why the huge price difference.
and here is a picture of the supposed Red lettering Bendix 6080 graphite tube that's so expensive.
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guys..
what's the difference between a Tungsol 6080wb and a Bendix 6080wb
based on this listing, there' s a HUGE price difference.
http://vacuumtubes.net/RES%20Audio%20pages/6080.html
few months ago i bought a Tungsol 6080wb slotted graphite tube from a head-fi forum member and i thought i got a great deal. please see the attached three pictures. and to be frank, it sounded better than the stocker Sylvania 6080wb that came with the amp. the tube clearly has the markings on the bottom metal part of Tungsol 6080 on it. and it's graphite column with slotted hole in the middle.
but now i am seeing this huge price difference between the red lettering Bendix 6080wb on the glass slotted tube vs the TS 6080 slotted tube i got. did i buy the wrong tube? i thought all Tungsol 6080 are the same as Bendix 6080 they're just rebranded. but why the huge price difference.
and here is a picture of the supposed Red lettering Bendix 6080 graphite tube that's so expensive.
Your Tungsol slotted graphite plate was made by Bendix and is essentially the same tube but the Bendix red bank printed tubes are just a bit more sought after because of the Bendix print branding .
From what I have been able to gather pretty much all the graphite column 6080 tubes (there are many variations of shape and size) irrespective of branding were manufactured by Bendix.
Many of the commonly sought after premium priced tubes can often be found with different branding or code designation for substantially less than the more commonly sought after but identical tube.
Don’t be caught out by The $35 6AS7G Mullard that is on the list as it is most probably a rebranded Svetlana 6H13 (Mullard didnt make a 6AS7G as far as I am aware) and while they sound ok they can be found for under $10 new on ebay with a world wide search. They have been turning up more and more with premium branding with some sellers asking $100 or more so watch out and be sure to do some homework on potential purchases.
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Your Tungsol slotted graphite plate was made by Bendix and is essentially the same tube but the Bendix red bank printed tubes are just a bit more sought after because of the Bendix print branding .
From what I have been able to gather pretty much all the graphite column 6080 tubes (there are many variations of shape and size) irrespective of branding were manufactured by Bendix.
Many of the commonly sought after premium priced tubes can often be found with different branding or code designation for substantially less than the more commonly sought after but identical tube.
Don’t be caught out by The $35 6AS7G Mullard that is on the list as it is most probably a rebranded Svetlana 6H13 (Mullard didnt make a 6AS7G as far as I am aware) and while they sound ok they can be found for under $10 new on ebay with a world wide search. They have been turning up more and more with premium branding with some sellers asking $100 or more so watch out and be sure to do some homework on potential purchases.
thanks JamieMcC, THIS is so helpful. thank you so much!
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i can't seem to find any reviews on this online retailer Vacuum Tube Superstore http://vacuumtubesuperstore.com/tung-sol.html
has anyone bought anything from them? is it trust worthy or no. good experience?
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That place is not a store, it is just some sort of link-through site - all the listings come from Ebay.
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Guys... is this TS 5998 legit? it's got the domino plate and says 5998 on the glass. the price doesn't look outrageous.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/262613766755?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
but it says Gold Aero and not Tung Sol. some say that TS is the only manufacture for domino plate 5998.
any thoughts?
i am just wondering if this is the same famed TS 5998 and if i should get it.
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I have a Heintz and Kaufman 5998 tube, and I read that the Tung Sol 5998 is overall the "best" tube for the Bottlehead Crack w/speedball.
Also, are the 5998 tubes from Heintz and Kaufman and Tung Sol essentially the same tube, or does the different manufacturers mean that there may be some sound differences?
I don't see much info on the Heintz and Kaufman 5998 tube (with a quick google search), so I would like to know what's the general consensus on them.
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I may be ill-informed, but all of my research that I've done regarding the 5998 states the true "domino plate" 5998's were ALL manufactured by Tung-Sol, so anything else is just a re-branding.
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Heintz & Kaufman were in South San Francisco in the 30's an 40s, specializing in making tubes with tantalum plates called Gammatrons. Some of you may have seen a 24-G Gammatron I posted on instagram a while back. Bill Eitel and Jack McCullough who formed another Bay Area tube manufacturer with the Eimac brand name, both worked there before starting their company.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BIX8Cb8BpBo/?taken-by=bottleheadaudio (https://www.instagram.com/p/BIX8Cb8BpBo/?taken-by=bottleheadaudio)
Kaufman left H&K in 1946 to start Lewis and Kaufman, and H&K became known as a reseller. So I would also guess that the Heintz & Kaufman 5998 is a rebrand.
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Great info! Thanks Dan!
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I may be ill-informed, but all of my research that I've done regarding the 5998 states the true "domino plate" 5998's were ALL manufactured by Tung-Sol, so anything else is just a re-branding.
This?
https://tubeworldexpress.com/collections/power-tubes/products/copy-of-best-5998-5998-tungsol-black-plates-1950s-rebranded-heintz-and-kaufman-nos-gm-8250-5000-and-8750-5000
Sure they are re-branded 5998.
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Heintz & Kaufman were in South San Francisco in the 30's an 40s, specializing in making tubes with tantalum plates called Gammatrons. Some of you may have seen a 24-G Gammatron I posted on instagram a while back. Bill Eitel and Jack McCullough who formed another Bay Area tube manufacturer with the Eimac brand name, both worked there before starting their company.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BIX8Cb8BpBo/?taken-by=bottleheadaudio (https://www.instagram.com/p/BIX8Cb8BpBo/?taken-by=bottleheadaudio)
Kaufman left H&K in 1946 to start Lewis and Kaufman, and H&K became known as a reseller. So I would also guess that the Heintz & Kaufman 5998 is a rebrand.
Thanks for the information!
This?
https://tubeworldexpress.com/collections/power-tubes/products/copy-of-best-5998-5998-tungsol-black-plates-1950s-rebranded-heintz-and-kaufman-nos-gm-8250-5000-and-8750-5000
Sure they are re-branded 5998.
That's the one I got. Might it be time for a new tube if one channel starts to make static-like noises? I have other tubes and can say that only my H&K 5998 tube has this problem.
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Tung-Sol 5998 at 108$, tested as new:
http://tctubes.com/Tung-Sol-JAN-5998.aspx
Only 1 left, be quick!
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Thanks for the information!
That's the one I got. Might it be time for a new tube if one channel starts to make static-like noises? I have other tubes and can say that only my H&K 5998 tube has this problem.
How many H&K 5998 tubes do you have? All have issues?
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I've used the search and google but can't find anyone using the ECC40's (= E80CC with rimlock base, needs adapter).
If used, how are your results with these tubes in Crack?
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I don't believe anyone has installed a rimlock socket on a Crack, you should give it a shot! Do be aware that the E80CC works better in the Crack circuit running a little less current than the 12AU7 to bring its plate voltage closer to spec. These mods are outlined by those who have performed the modification.
-PB
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Thank you for the reply. I stumbled upon these tubes when reviewing E80CC options because i liked those best with my crack.
The operating points aren't exactly the same but close enough to use them with the E80CC bias for crack.
Here in Europe they were fairly popular because they were build for low microphonics (compared to their predecessor; 6SN7) and linearity.
Nowadays the prices are very low because of the B8A (Rimlock) socket that is needed.
The reason i asked is because i've been using these for the last few months with most excellent results (especially the Hungarian) compared to other tubes i use in my Crack (12au7's, 6F8G, 6SN7, 6C8G, 6SL7, 6CG7/6FQ7, E80CC, 12BH7 and 5687/7119's).
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Hello all, i'm currently using a Mullard 12AU7 cv4003 and a Mullard 6080 cv2984. I would like to get a Tung-Sol 5998 to pair with cv4003, but these are thought to find.
So i was wondering, what would be a good price for an used 5998 tube nowadays ?
Also what would be a good ma and gm rating for an used tube ?
Thanks
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I remember someone on head-fi said that the Crack tubes are Russian NOS tubes. But my Crack came with 2 made in USA tubes.
Don't get me wrong. I prefer made in USA or England tubes. Just curious why they are not Russian NOS tubes as someone said?
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There are no Russian 6080 and 12AU7 tubes. You can fit a 6H13C which is a Russian 6AS7G, but there is no equivalent to the 12AU7.
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There are no Russian 6080 and 12AU7 tubes. You can fit a 6H13C which is a Russian 6AS7G, but there is no equivalent to the 12AU7.
Cool, thanks a lot for the reply.
The last time I submerged in the head-fi Crack thread was like at the beginning of this year. So I must have remembered something incorrectly.
I have never dipped my toes in the tube rolling waters. So what are the 2 stock tubes?
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Its a lottery. Your pretty much guaranteed they will be american made tubes, but the brand will vary. I have gotten some interesting tubes before, so you never know..
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Its a lottery. Your pretty much guaranteed they will be american made tubes, but the brand will vary. I have gotten some interesting tubes before, so you never know..
Lottery...so what is the jackpot?...lol
Thanks a lot for explaining the tubes
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Though you might get an new made Russian tube like I did.. :(
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Occasionally Bottlehead will acquire some especially good and/or famous and/or just rare tubes at a good price. Sometimes they will be announced, sometimes it's a lucky draw that you will get them, sometimes it becomes part of a promotion. Depends on Doc B's mood :^)
Tubes are 12AU7 and 6080. Both have many equivalents. The 6080 is used as a cathode follower, which means that a wider variety of tubes are close enough to work.
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Yes, we guarantee that we won't guarantee what brand tubes you will get. We go through jillions of them and we get what we can get at any given time. Almost all the time, but not absolutely all the time, they are old stock American tubes. We do test every one in a TV-10 tube tester before it goes out. We do not listen to every one.
For what it's worth I can also guarantee you will usually get more accurate information about this kind of thing by asking us directly rather than asking on Head-Fi.
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Thanks a lot Chris, Paul, and Doc. B to clear up my confusions. Now I got it.
They are stock American 12AU7 and 6080 tubes instead of the rumoured Russian tubes from head-fi.
I actually prefer American or English tubes. I think they are more reliable, if I am not guessing wrong again this time.
The stock tubes in my just-built Crack are awesome - background is dead silent, no microphonics whatsoever, very engaging
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I actually prefer American or English tubes. I think they are more reliable, if I am not guessing wrong again this time.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with Russian made tubes, for the crack specifically a 6H13C is up there with the best of them.
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If a newcomer to Crack asks me what the best readily available / budget tubes would be i'd recommend the Russian combination.
6H13C with Genalex Gold Lion ECC82 new production.
Great starter pack: full bodied bass, large soundstage, musical mids. A combination made for easy listening, hour after hour.
Edit: And i never encountered any problems with these tubes.
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Cool, it seems that there are some pretty good Russian made tubes. Thanks a lot for your recommendation, mcandmar and Tom-s!
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If a newcomer to Crack asks me what the best readily available / budget tubes would be i'd recommend the Russian combination.
6H13C with Genalex Gold Lion ECC82 new production.
Great starter pack: full bodied bass, large soundstage, musical mids. A combination made for easy listening, hour after hour.
Edit: And i never encountered any problems with these tubes.
This is what I decided to do as my first foray into tube rolling. I got the 6H13C last week and had no problems. Today I got the ECC82 in the mail and now my Crack has a bunch of popping and a low but rather loud hum. I had had occasional popping before, but nothing that lasted. The hum has never happened before. Did I just get a bad tube?
EDIT: Just put the original tube in and now it's humming too. Oh boy.
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You may want to start a new thread if you're having issues with your build, but what you describe is typical of a flaky solder joint that's acting up from rolling tubes.
-PB
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Sorry if I posted in the wrong place, but thanks because that was indeed the problem.
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After the comments about Russian tubes i started looking around a bit for more tube rolling options.
I stumbled upon the following tubes:
6n6p (http://www.lampizator.eu/UPGRADE/RU-6N6P.pdf) -> Could work with ECC182 / 7119 / 5687 mod and adapter
6n1p (http://www.lampizator.eu/UPGRADE/6N1PEV.pdf) -> Just needs an adapter?
Both are higher gain, different pinout and have other electrical parameters vs ECC82 and so are NOT to be used in a standard Crack.
Reading material: http://www.lampizator.eu/UPGRADE/upgrade%20noval%20tubes%20to%206H6P.html
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The only drop in replacement Rusky tube is the 6H8C which is a 6SN7, which of course means you need an octal socket converter.
The metal base Melz tubes are extremely clean and detailed sounding, and the earlier hole plates are that bit better again. Unfortunately those ones are getting hard to find so expect to find some silly asking prices for them.
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I only do use one 6SN7 and it seems like it is the one you described, but labeled 1578.
Crappy phone pic:
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fep1.pinkbike.org%2Fp5pb14224579%2Fp5pb14224579.jpg&hash=a97e1e9cc022f6583a360907b1d868528d5f660a)
Edit but the reason i'm looking into these other russians is because of their low prices.
More comments on the 6n6p and 6n1p are most welcome.
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Yup one of them :)
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Another tube that might be worth trying in Crack, the 6211: https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/137/6/6211.pdf
Anyone tried these?
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The 6N1P may hit a plate voltage that isn't too far off (it will require an adapter, and I don't know how you'll ground the shield pin with an adapter that plugs into a socket with no ground reference), but you really don't want more gain in the Crack.
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Sorry if I posted in the wrong place, but thanks because that was indeed the problem.
NOS tube may give the popping sounds you described. Let it warm up a little bit should solve your problem.
"Humming" noise may come from wifi, computer, cell phone............and of cause bad tubes.
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The 6N1P may hit a plate voltage that isn't too far off (it will require an adapter, and I don't know how you'll ground the shield pin with an adapter that plugs into a socket with no ground reference), but you really don't want more gain in the Crack.
Yup, use a ECC83 if you wanna more gain. LOL :o
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I don't really get that?
For me the 33 amplification factor isn't too far from the 32 amplification factor (vs 17 ecc82) i'm using atm.
The power tube has an amplification of 5 (vs 2 for 6080).
Is there a problem with these causing too much stress on any component in the circuitry?
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I don't really get that?
For me the 33 amplification factor isn't too far from the 32 amplification factor (vs 17 ecc82) i'm using atm.
The power tube has an amplification of 5 (vs 2 for 6080).
Is there a problem with these causing too much stress on any component in the circuitry?
The PT-3 power transformer spec is a maximum of 3.5 amps RMS.
I am also curious what the new power transformer specs in the new crack 1.1.
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First of all, the 6080 is running as a cathode follower, so its gain is in fact slightly negative. Secondly, sure, you can build an amp with any gain you want. But how it works with other gear may be very unpredictable. If there is a generally accepted range for the gain of each component in the chain it becomes possible to design the circuits in such a way that the noise floor of one component doesn't get amplified by the next one so much as to intrude in the music. The 12AU7 has plenty of gain for the application. More gain isn't impossible to use, but it doesn't necessarily make anything better and might create a noise problem.
The power transformer current rating has nothing to do with the gain structure.
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The power transformer current rating has nothing to do with the gain structure.
True. But it will be interesting to know.
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I'm with attmci,
What are the power transformer specs for Crack 1.1 and Crack a two?
Interested in those to try more tube rolling !
Edit: Hoping for 5A + heater supplies! :)
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The beefy heater winding on the C2A is a 5A winding. It, however, powers both the 6080 and the 12AU7. You can heat the 12AU7 off the winding that heats the 6AQ5's, but that's all the power that winding has to give. Having done that modification, you can then draw 5A off the 6080's winding.
Do note that none of this takes into account that when you plug in some different twin triode regulator, you may end up needing to redesign the circuit for it to work properly, and this can be a lot of work.
The Crack power transformer won't support any of this business.
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The beefy heater winding on the C2A is a 5A winding. It, however, powers both the 6080 and the 12AU7. You can heat the 12AU7 off the winding that heats the 6AQ5's, but that's all the power that winding has to give. Having done that modification, you can then draw 5A off the 6080's winding.
Do note that none of this takes into account that when you plug in some different twin triode regulator, you may end up needing to redesign the circuit for it to work properly, and this can be a lot of work.
The Crack power transformer won't support any of this business.
Many thanks, Paul. So the Crack 1.1 use the same larger transformer? That's great news.
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So the Crack 1.1 use the same larger transformer? That's great news.
Don't think so, the Crack 1.1 uses a smaller transformer than the PT-8 used in the Crack-a-two-a.
PB said: "The Crack power transformer won't support any of this business."
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Many thanks, Paul. So the Crack 1.1 use the same larger transformer? That's great news.
No, as I said before, the Crack won't support what you're trying to do. The Crack-a-two-a power transformer is physically larger and electrically more potent than the transformer in the Crack.
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If anyone in Europe is looking for the perfect tube. Really, try an ECC40. It's cheap (vs ECC82), readily available.
Why i wanted to try them in Crack: http://kolbrek.hoyttalerdesign.no/index.php/tubes/distortion-in-small-signal-tubes
Is operates perfectly in a normal Crack with Speedball. It helps to install the E80CC switch mod (470 Ohm R1) and get the most out of this tube.
Try the Holland made (Sittard/Eindhoven) ECC40 tubes for the E80CC (pinched waist) sound that came from the Dutch factories (Heerlen/Eindhoven).
The Hamburg version is more lush, with the same detail retrieval but more weight in the midrange.
The Tungsram versions are on their own really. They could be compared best tot the Tungsram E80CC in terms of sound.
They are a step-up from the 12au7 and a side step to the E80CC (I like most ECC40's better, different soundstage, smaller, more detailed, ECC40's gives a different/more weight to instruments).
Buy an 9 hole to -> 8 hole rim lock adapter via ebay or your local supplier or DIY (i bought one for 10€).
I've been using these for 2-3 months now with great results. My collection is over 15 and growing (collecting one from every year 1948 -> 1957 from the Dutch factories).
Edit: Tube data: http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/ecc40.pdf
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If anyone in Europe is looking for the perfect tube. Really, try an ECC40. It's cheap (vs ECC82), readily available.
Why i wanted to try them in Crack: http://kolbrek.hoyttalerdesign.no/index.php/tubes/distortion-in-small-signal-tubes
Is operates perfectly in a normal Crack with Speedball. It helps to install the E80CC switch mod (470 Ohm R1) and get the most out of this tube.
Try the Holland made (Sittard/Eindhoven) ECC40 tubes for the E80CC (pinched waist) sound that came from the Dutch factories (Heerlen/Eindhoven).
The Hamburg version is more lush, with the same detail retrieval but more weight in the midrange.
The Tungsram versions are on their own really. They could be compared best tot the Tungsram E80CC in terms of sound.
They are a step-up from the 12au7 and a side step to the E80CC (I like most ECC40's better, different soundstage, smaller, more detailed, ECC40's gives a different/more weight to instruments).
Buy an 9 hole to -> 8 hole rim lock adapter via ebay or your local supplier or DIY (i bought one for 10€).
I've been using these for 2-3 months now with great results. My collection is over 15 and growing (collecting one from every year 1948 -> 1957 from the Dutch factories).
Edit: Tube data: http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/ecc40.pdf
Thanks for sharing.
Don't you think the heat current of the ecc40 doubles that of a 12au7? Though same as an e80cc.
We have to keep in mind that The PT-3 can only handle 3.5 amps RMS. So there is not much room here.
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Yes the heater current is 0.6A like 6SN7, E80CC, 12BH7, 7119 and lot's of others you can use in Crack.
It's perfectly fine in Crack. With 0.4-0.5A (6080 or 5998) to spare the transformer is happy with these.
If using 2x 6BL7 (2x 1.5A) as a power tube beware only to use 0.3A tubes.
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Yes the heater current is 0.6A like 6SN7, E80CC, 12BH7, 7119 and lot's of others you can use in Crack.
It's perfectly fine in Crack. With 0.4-0.5A (6080 or 5998) to spare the transformer is happy with these.
If using 2x 6BL7 (2x 1.5A) as a power tube beware only to use 0.3A tubes. :-* TRUE!
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Please nare with me, I just got the Telefuken 12au7 and thought would do my first excercise for comparison. Please bear with me. Note: this is only aubjective using my limited knowledge of audio jargon and proper evaluation method.
Telefuken 12au7 (Smooth Plate) vs Mullard 12au7 (short Plate) 1961 with RCA 6as7g Black Plate
Amp: Stock Crack w/ Speed Ball
Cans: Hd-580 with Furutech Cable
Digital: Arcam iRdac
USB Cable: Tchernov USB-C
RCA: Cardas Golden Cross
TELEFUKEN 12AU7 SMOOTH PLATE
High -very open airy sound, extended, crisp but not harsh, some what a little bright for my taste
Mid- compare to mallard its a bit thin, but comparing to the tube itself the whole spectrum, I feels that its in balance with the high and bass.
Low-mid bass sounds good and punchy-snappy (quite dynamic), but loss to the Mullard on the lower bass oomph. and decay of the note.
Sound stage - Wider than the mullard, the instrument separation is better
Smoothness - Quite smooth sounding tube, sounds coherent. transition of top to mid to bottom is very well connected.
Mullard 12AU7 Boxed PLATE
High -a tiny bit roll off, analog like sound. Think smooth, lush, soft top end.
Mid- This is where the magic happen. The mid is forward, warm and very very smooth. Think 35 years old Scotch Whisky smooth.
Low- Mid bass control is lacking, but the lower bass sound very nice with the oomph extended. Not as dynamic as the Telefunken. But I like this fat oomph note.
Sound stage - More intimate, the soundstage width is narrower than the Telefuken, but still very good. The separation can be better, but not bad.
Smoothness - This is one very smooth, I mean silky smooth. tube and very analog like sound (Think LP sound).
In summary - Over all, I tried these tubes with many genera: rock, pop, Jazz, Acoustics, Classical, Voices (male and female). These two tubes are very good, I think it has to match your music preference to get the most of it.
If Ihave to describe the sound and make compariosn, the Telefuken is youg energetic teens with a bit of attitute. The Mullard is like a 50 years old who has seen the world, experienced calm and poise.
If you read to this end... Thank you for taking your time to read my layman. Pls comment if you have them.
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Another European tube comparison ECC82 Telefunken (Berlin) vs 6211 Telefunken (Ulm).
Does a 6211 work in Crack? Yes it does. T1/T5 read 70-75+- Volts DC with 237 Ohm R1 in a Speedball Crack.
I can be short about this one. The 6211 is like a ECC82 Telefunken only better.
The extra Telefunken layer in the very 3D soundstage is there, or even more then with the normal ECC82.
It's not sharp in any way. Very dynamic and lot's of detail retrieval. Air, air, more air :D.
The downside is that i found these tubes to be rather expensive (75-100€/piece) compared to a normal Telefunken (35-50€).
To add to the comparison above i might try these vs the CV491 tubes i got (my favorite British ECC82's).
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The 6211 also has extra gain that isn't convenient.
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Silly tube question. How does one tell when the amplification tube or cathode follower tube is reaching the natural end of it’s useful life. I’m not talking taking about a bad tube, but one that is beginning to die a natural death.
Are there audible sonic changes? Are there simple voltage measurements that can be made to verify that the tube is nearly spent?
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Silly tube question. How does one tell when the amplification tube or cathode follower tube is reaching the natural end of it’s useful life. I’m not talking taking about a bad tube, but one that is beginning to die a natural death.
Are there audible sonic changes? Are there simple voltage measurements that can be made to verify that the tube is nearly spent?
I'll use a tube tester.
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You'll notice a fuzzy distortion, but it will appear very slowly.
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Compare it with another tube.
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Hi, does anyone knows the markings on this 5998 tube? I cannot find any information about the FAA-CAHG. Thanks.
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1213.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc479%2Furecheus%2F5998.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=8f92667c5715996493faeaf4395de1d27bb520d7)
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Curious, i wonder if its anything to do with the Federal Aviation Administration. You usually see them labeled JAN for Joint Army and Navy, and the CAHG is just an abbreviation for Chatham Electronics.
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Hi, does anyone knows the markings on this 5998 tube? I cannot find any information about the FAA-CAHG. Thanks.
It's a Chatham 5998, the FAA would mean that it may have been sold to the FAA.
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Thanks. I wonder if these tubes, made for FAA, have anything special? low noise etc.
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If a newcomer to Crack asks me what the best readily available / budget tubes would be i'd recommend the Russian combination.
6H13C with Genalex Gold Lion ECC82 new production.
Great starter pack: full bodied bass, large soundstage, musical mids. A combination made for easy listening, hour after hour.
Edit: And i never encountered any problems with these tubes.
Thanks for the tip! I just built my crack and have been a little intimidated about getting into tube rolling. This seems like a great entry point, and it's nice to see a recommended NOS tube that can be had for $20-$30 on ebay.
Would this combination produce a notable change over the Crack + SB sound with stock tubes?
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For me it did. With my headphones i liked the added bass and soundstage.
I got a Raytheon 6080wb and GE 12au7 with my Crack stock.
Start with the 6H13C, these are good. And input tube rolling will make more of a difference with a better power tube IME.
For the input, if in Europe, it's worth to search for a Telefunken ECC82 for cheap.
These are sold cheaper vs the Gold Lion if patient.
YMMV etc etc.
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A 6H13C and RCA clear top 12AU7 is hard to beat, and wont break the bank either.
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A 6H13C and RCA clear top 12AU7 is hard to beat, and wont break the bank either.
Wow, yeah that is cheap. I may start there and pick up a gold lion later.
For the 6H13C, is this what I'm looking for?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Svetlana-Winged-C-6H13C-6AS7G-Vacuum-Tubes-Black-Plates-/122233511030?hash=item1c75af5c76:g:ZTUAAOSwHMJYMLGC
Really appreciate the advice. Like I said, the 600+ pages of discussion I have bookmarked on various forums had me pretty intimidated about getting started with rolling tubes.
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Thats the one. You can source them direct from Russia for less, but be prepared to wait a month or so for it. e.g. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/182415022045 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/182415022045)
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You can either hate or love the clear top RCA's. I don't like them. It's personal.
Another cheap (and for me way way better than RCA's clear top 12AU7): Tungsram E80CC*, 22€ shipped. http://www.ebay.de/itm/NEW-NOS-TUNGSRAM-E80CC-CV5989-6085-DOUBLE-TRIODE-lot-1pc-/302085125181?hash=item4655ad343d:g:SlgAAOSwImRYOzEe
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You can either hate or love the clear top RCA's. I don't like them. It's personal.
Another cheap (and for me way way better than RCA's clear top 12AU7): Tungsram E80CC*, 22€ shipped. http://www.ebay.de/itm/NEW-NOS-TUNGSRAM-E80CC-CV5989-6085-DOUBLE-TRIODE-lot-1pc-/302085125181?hash=item4655ad343d:g:SlgAAOSwImRYOzEe
Yeah I did a little reading. Not sure if I would appreciate the clear-tops. Pulling the trigger later today on a set of 6H13C and a single gold lion. Really like what I read about both of them.
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Thanks. I wonder if these tubes, made for FAA, have anything special? low noise etc.
Just special paint.
-PB
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For me it did. With my headphones i liked the added bass and soundstage.
I got a Raytheon 6080wb and GE 12au7 with my Crack stock.
Start with the 6H13C, these are good. And input tube rolling will make more of a difference with a better power tube IME.
For the input, if in Europe, it's worth to search for a Telefunken ECC82 for cheap.
These are sold cheaper vs the Gold Lion if patient.
YMMV etc etc.
I've been running the 6H13C and Gold Lion for a few days now... Wanted to report back in to say that this combo is awesome! I wasn't sure if there was going to be an audible difference, but right out of the gate I could hear it. With my HD6xx the bass is punchier and more impactful. Soundstage is definitely improved as well, not necessarily in size but I feel like there were a couple gaps before that have been filled in. Soundstage seems much more 3-dimensional with the Dr. Chesky test track I used from the headphone demonstration disk.
Thanks for the recommendation. Money well spent. A matched pair of the 6H13C's ran me $30, and a brand new gold lion was $26 on ebay. I've been loving the HD6xx + stock crack, but felt like I could use just a tad more bass and soundstage. Really enjoying this combo!
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I've been running the 6H13C and Gold Lion for a few days now... Wanted to report back in to say that this combo is awesome! I wasn't sure if there was going to be an audible difference, but right out of the gate I could hear it. With my HD6xx the bass is punchier and more impactful. Soundstage is definitely improved as well, not necessarily in size but I feel like there were a couple gaps before that have been filled in. Soundstage seems much more 3-dimensional with the Dr. Chesky test track I used from the headphone demonstration disk.
Thanks for the recommendation. Money well spent. A matched pair of the 6H13C's ran me $30, and a brand new gold lion was $26 on ebay. I've been loving the HD6xx + stock crack, but felt like I could use just a tad more bass and soundstage. Really enjoying this combo!
Welcome to the club.
Your next step is GEC 6as7g + 7316.
🐷
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It is, after you sold 1 kidney :D
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It is, after you sold 1 kidney :D
LOL Then you have to go back to page 90 (http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=663.1335). Two paralleled tubes can compete with any prime tubes per my test.
PT-3 is a nice little power transformer. PT-7/PT-10 is even better.
A little bit history can be found here:
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=bottlehead&m=135369
And here: "The power trans can deliver 3.8A AC to the 6.3V heaters. Right now the 6080 draws 2.5A and the 12AU7 draws 0.3A. So right now the total draw is 2.8A. One could change to a 6SN7 (0.6A heater) by punching out the socket mounting hole and wiring in an octal socket. Or just do it the easy way and use a 6CG7 in the existing socket with the heater pins rewired from 9 and 4/5 tied to 4 and 5. 12BH7 should be pretty easy to do as well." -Doc
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And oh gee, suddenly this Crack sounds f-balls amazing again. Modding for the sake of it is good, but just now I learned a lesson. Back to it.
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Hello
Which tubes did you replace with the stock tubes?
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What a difference E80CC's make, been listening to a couple different examples for a week or two now. So much smoother and more articulate compared to anything else I've tried, huge well controlled low end and crisp clear highs and mids.
I've tried a lot of tubes in my crack. Including some 6f8g's and 6fq7's but nothing has immediately taken my breath away like the E80CC's have. A couple 6sn7's I've tried have come close but the examples I had that sounded best were also highly microphonic and none of the E80CC's I've tried have had this problem. It feels like as significant an improvement as the speedball was over the stock crack. I can't get the headphones off of my ears.
I'd be interested if anybody has any picture of how they implemented a resistor switch on the small speedball board.
It's just too bad that NOS E80CC's seem to be a vanishing commodity.
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There is a lot of info and a few pics of the resistor mod in this thread
http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=5989.0
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Hi everyone,
I completed my first build of CRACK recently and have been enjoying the reward very much ever since!
Not so surprisingly, I am already in pursuit of NOS tubes but found myself lacking the knowledge required.
Even though I have done a lot of readings over the past week, there are fundamental questions that hopefully can be answered here.
1.) When buying NOS, what parameters exactly I should check? [Gm, IA?]
2.) Are there any matching of parameters need to be done when buying one single tube [not a pair]?
3.) http://www.ebay.com/itm/RCA-6AS7-G-Vacuum-Tube-Results-2680-3450-/182440130837?hash=item2a7a477915:g:5BwAAOSw2xRYkMxU (http://www.ebay.com/itm/RCA-6AS7-G-Vacuum-Tube-Results-2680-3450-/182440130837?hash=item2a7a477915:g:5BwAAOSw2xRYkMxU) This tube, the seller says test result = 2680/3450, does it matter these two value aren't close?
4). What else i need to be aware of? Any suggested readings/guideline for beginners like me?
p.s http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tung-Sol-5998-2399-421A-replacement-/272523578533?hash=item3f73abcca5:g:6oEAAOSwNnRYfGrz (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tung-Sol-5998-2399-421A-replacement-/272523578533?hash=item3f73abcca5:g:6oEAAOSwNnRYfGrz) do you guys think it is a good deal? 5998 is so expensive these day...
Thanks so much in advance!
Lawrence
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Hello
Which tubes did you replace with the stock tubes?
Bad tubes. :)
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Hi everyone,
I completed my first build of CRACK recently and have been enjoying the reward very much ever since!
Not so surprisingly, I am already in pursuit of NOS tubes but found myself lacking the knowledge required.
Even though I have done a lot of readings over the past week, there are fundamental questions that hopefully can be answered here.
1.) When buying NOS, what parameters exactly I should check? [Gm, IA?]
2.) Are there any matching of parameters need to be done when buying one single tube [not a pair]?
3.) http://www.ebay.com/itm/RCA-6AS7-G-Vacuum-Tube-Results-2680-3450-/182440130837?hash=item2a7a477915:g:5BwAAOSw2xRYkMxU (http://www.ebay.com/itm/RCA-6AS7-G-Vacuum-Tube-Results-2680-3450-/182440130837?hash=item2a7a477915:g:5BwAAOSw2xRYkMxU) This tube, the seller says test result = 2680/3450, does it matter these two value aren't close?
4). What else i need to be aware of? Any suggested readings/guideline for beginners like me?
p.s http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tung-Sol-5998-2399-421A-replacement-/272523578533?hash=item3f73abcca5:g:6oEAAOSwNnRYfGrz (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tung-Sol-5998-2399-421A-replacement-/272523578533?hash=item3f73abcca5:g:6oEAAOSwNnRYfGrz) do you guys think it is a good deal? 5998 is so expensive these day...
Thanks so much in advance!
Lawrence
Appreciation to the member who answered my questions! (also apologizes for not remembering your name as the reply is gone somehow)
I wanted to come back with more questions after doing some study on monophonic problem just like you suggested. But they do not matter anymore,
have given up on that tube already.
Not sure whether you will read this, but I still want to send you my gratitude.
Lawrence
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I replaced the stock GE 6080 with a Chatham 2399, and the unbranded 12AU7 with an RCA clear top 12AU7A. For a while I preferred the look of the st shaped Chatham tube. It looks impressive sitting there on the cabinet. But I found the sound to be harsh and lacking bass. Maybe a little cold. I have the Crack plugged into the tape monitor output on my NAD C740, which bypasses the eq. Straight signal into HD 600s -what could go wrong? But I wasn't listening as often as I had been in the past.
The other night I plugged the GE back in (left the RCA) and fired up QotSA - Like Clockwork. The richness and warmth and bass I'd been missing was back and the experience was delightful. I've verified my drunken findings in the sober light of day by listening to some other things on the original tube and it still sounds great. If I get a chance maybe I'll do an A/B test with my bias tuned towards the workhorse 6080 rather than the pretty 2399 this time.
My Crack has the Speedball upgrade and some big M-Caps capacitors.
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Hi Did anyone ever figure out the reason for the Crack loud buzzing at the minimum volume level? Once I move the volume off of mimimum (zero) the loud buzzing goes away.
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I am puzzled with my Crack with Speedball. If I use a 6080 tube I get no buzzing but if I use a 7236 or 421atube I get buzzing when the volume is at minimum. Anybody run across this problem? If yes what tubes are you using that don't buzz (6AS7G?)?
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Try cleaning the tube pins.
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I replaced the stock GE 6080 with a Chatham 2399, and the unbranded 12AU7 with an RCA clear top 12AU7A. For a while I preferred the look of the st shaped Chatham tube. It looks impressive sitting there on the cabinet. But I found the sound to be harsh and lacking bass. Maybe a little cold. I have the Crack plugged into the tape monitor output on my NAD C740, which bypasses the eq. Straight signal into HD 600s -what could go wrong? But I wasn't listening as often as I had been in the past.
The other night I plugged the GE back in (left the RCA) and fired up QotSA - Like Clockwork. The richness and warmth and bass I'd been missing was back and the experience was delightful. I've verified my drunken findings in the sober light of day by listening to some other things on the original tube and it still sounds great. If I get a chance maybe I'll do an A/B test with my bias tuned towards the workhorse 6080 rather than the pretty 2399 this time.
My Crack has the Speedball upgrade and some big M-Caps capacitors.
Wow, a GE 6080 beat a 5998.
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Wow, a GE 6080 beat a 5998.
Yeah. It shows how subjective this stuff can be sometimes. It also may expose the limitations of my gear.
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Yeah. It shows how subjective this stuff can be sometimes. It also may expose the limitations of my gear.
Thanks for sharing. I believe you received one of the first batches of crack.
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Noob warning.
Equipment is HD650+Crack(no upgrades)
I was planning to purchase Genalex Gold Lion ECC82, I see 2 versions (regular vs platinum) on eBay, with the following description. I was wondering the difference (hig/low gain), planning to pair with "Svetlana Winged C 6H13C = 6AS7G Vacuum Tubes Black Plates".
Thanks!
GENALEX New PAIR Platinum Matched Gold Lion NIB 12AU7 ECC82 B749 Tubes Gold Pin
From description: It is a high gain, low noise valve with a short plate structure for reduced microphonics. Excellent for use in the highest quality audio amplifiers/pre-amplifiers.
GENALEX New PAIR TWO Gold Lion NIB 12AU7 ECC82 B749 Tubes Gold Pin
From description: It is a medium gain, low noise valve with a short plate structure for reduced microphonics. Excellent for use in the highest quality audio amplifiers/pre-amplifiers.
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A 12AU7 is a medium gain tube. That high gain comment has to be either a misprint or misrepresentation of the tube as a 12AU7. Most likely it's a misprint, as the platinum thing seems to mean they are somehow "matched" but not any different in spec from the non-platinum version.
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Hi, i got a cheap 12au7, which has Amperex written, but i cannot identify the rest. I was wondering if anybody recognize the tube by the plates? On a side there is 12au7a USA written.
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1213.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc479%2Furecheus%2FIMG_0468.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=d1ed07314a7836fa47930da946a5a883801a3f01)
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Since it says USA, it's a re-branding of something (probably GE). Showing those other markings would be helpful .
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The one on the left is the one marked Amperex, and the one on the right is supposed to be made by Mullard.
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1213.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc479%2Furecheus%2Fs-l1600.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=1624d7ca2d2d9942bd72445e606ab6647a673aff)
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Left is definitely GE.
Right could be a Mullard. Easiest spotting of a a Mullard is if the heater flashes very bright briefly when it's turned on.
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There's a decent amount that can be discerned by looking at the top of the glass. European tubes will usually have 2 or 4 seams in the glass, while American tubes will have none. Some German tubes will also have no seams, but the shape of the top of those tubes will be very straight and well formed, while the American tubes won't look nearly as neat.
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It seams it is a Mullard, nice flash on power on :))))).
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Quick question for everyone, I picked up a Philips Miniwatt E80CC and think something is faulty. I was under the impression the gain was higher with these than standard EC82 tubes. Mine is incredibly quiet unless my volume is near maxed out. Is this normal?
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The one on the left is the one marked Amperex, and the one on the right is supposed to be made by Mullard.
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1213.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc479%2Furecheus%2Fs-l1600.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=1624d7ca2d2d9942bd72445e606ab6647a673aff)
Agree the left is a GE (with GE dots near the bottom).
Any code on the right tube?
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The other i believe it is a Mullard, it flashes on power on.
Other markings:
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1213.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc479%2Furecheus%2Fs-l1601.jpg&hash=fc091ea8b7ae11e521277b2d91144a7de146c0da)
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1213.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc479%2Furecheus%2Fs-l1602.jpg&hash=b4ea9f81f85dcb10020ec2cc5ecd961941bd6347)
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Hey fellas,
I'm running the Svetlana 6H13C winged C + Gold Lion 12AU7 and I'm loving the slam it gives music. Definitely makes it more exciting.
But I'm looking for a tube that mellows out music as the aforementioned combo can make it sound harsh. So I'm looking for something that gives that liquidy tube sound. I hear the Mullard CV4003 counteracts the power the Winged C gives. Would one be a good choice?
Anyone who's had both the Gold Lion and Mullard that can give any inputs?
I also have the Mullard 12AU7/ECC82 which I'm liking with the Winged C as it's not as harsh as the Gold Lion.
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The other i believe it is a Mullard, it flashes on power on.
Other markings:
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1213.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc479%2Furecheus%2Fs-l1601.jpg&hash=fc091ea8b7ae11e521277b2d91144a7de146c0da)
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1213.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc479%2Furecheus%2Fs-l1602.jpg&hash=b4ea9f81f85dcb10020ec2cc5ecd961941bd6347)
Like this one (take a look of the code at the bottom of the tube shown in one of the picture)? http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-tube-Mullard-12AU7-ECC82-ECC802S-72-87-/112326325956?hash=item1a272bb6c4:g:slQAAOSw4CFYvd3p
BTW, many EU valve has this "Mullard flash" including the famous 7316. :P
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Quick question for everyone, I picked up a Philips Miniwatt E80CC and think something is faulty. I was under the impression the gain was higher with these than standard EC82 tubes. Mine is incredibly quiet unless my volume is near maxed out. Is this normal?
You'll get 1-2dB of additional gain with an E80CC assuming that you're using the Speedball (and that you've adjusted the R1 resistors accordingly).
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So I was looking at 6SN7's and came across this:
https://www.tubedepot.com/products/sylvania-vt231-6sn7gt-1945
I feel as if one should be careful about who they buy from, and their pricing. Are these Sylvania's really worth this much? What are the typical TOTL 6SN7(GT)'s that are usually favored?
Regards,
-T
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Hello All,
I recently purchased a 12AU7 Telefunken tube, the seller tests on a Maxi-Preamp 2. Between the 2 triodes, I see A has a gain of 15.5 and B has 17.2.
I saw this after I purchased, is this normal or have I purchased a lemon?
Thanks.
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So I was looking at 6SN7's and came across this:
https://www.tubedepot.com/products/sylvania-vt231-6sn7gt-1945
I feel as if one should be careful about who they buy from, and their pricing. Are these Sylvania's really worth this much? What are the typical TOTL 6SN7(GT)'s that are usually favored?
Regards,
-T
I got a pair of these off eBay for my Elise. IIRC, they were $80 for the pair.
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Hello All,
I recently purchased a 12AU7 Telefunken tube, the seller tests on a Maxi-Preamp 2. Between the 2 triodes, I see A has a gain of 15.5 and B has 17.2.
I saw this after I purchased, is this normal or have I purchased a lemon?
Thanks.
This is perfect! I've used Telefunken measuring 13 vs 8.5 and that tube sounded perfectly normal.
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This is perfect! I've used Telefunken measuring 13 vs 8.5 and that tube sounded perfectly normal.
Thanks a lot for the reply! That is great to hear.
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I recently purchased a 12AU7 Telefunken tube, the seller tests on a Maxi-Preamp 2. Between the 2 triodes, I see A has a gain of 15.5 and B has 17.2.
That's a little less than 1dB of difference. It will likely be a little audible, but not intrusive. It's certainly not abnormal.
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That's a little less than 1dB of difference. It will likely be a little audible, but not intrusive. It's certainly not abnormal.
Thank you. I was playing with the balance feature on my Fiio X3ii and I can't really tell the difference of 1 dB.
Just thinking, can I compensate for the dB difference in the input tube triodes using the balance feature?
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Thank you. I was playing with the balance feature on my Fiio X3ii and I can't really tell the difference of 1 dB.
Just thinking, can I compensate for the dB difference in the input tube triodes using the balance feature?
I have seen someone modified his crack so that there are two individual, separate rca channels, and two volume controls (alps blue velvet) of course.
If you are interested, I can quote the link here later when I am home.
Lawrence
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First time poster here. About using a 6SN7 in the Crack i got myself a 6sn7 to 12au7 adapter .it works alright but problem is sound level doesnt get very loud is there a modification that has to be done to use this tube .i was under the assumption it would work ok with adapter kinda puzzled .i heard of guys using this tube .
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We have not made the Crack with the intention of accomodating this kind of thing, so you are in the realm of experimentation here. It should have about the same gain. But not knowing how this adapter is wired, it's pretty much impossible for us to offer any guidance. Could be a worn out tube, could be a socket that is somehow not optimal, etc. If you can post voltage measurements we might be able to offer some suggestions.
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I have seen someone modified his crack so that there are two individual, separate rca channels, and two volume controls (alps blue velvet) of course.
Our first preamp kit, the Foreplay, offered two dual mono volume control pots as you described. I built several over they years, and I found it extremely tedious and difficult to ever get the channels balanced, and once they were balanced, I would never really want to adjust the volume because then I would have to start over and rebalance the channels at the new level.
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First time poster here. About using a 6SN7 in the Crack i got myself a 6sn7 to 12au7 adapter .it works alright but problem is sound level doesnt get very loud is there a modification that has to be done to use this tube .i was under the assumption it would work ok with adapter kinda puzzled .i heard of guys using this tube .
I wired my Crack amp to use a 6SN7 (no adapter). I have more gain than I can use with my Sennheiser HD600's. What kind of headphones are you using?
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Hi i am using a pair of Senns HD800S. I was told by this Chinese seller that these adapters worked in the Crack.win some lose some i guess . Thanks
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I use a chinese ebay adapter for 6sn7's without problems. Voltages are within normal range using 6SN7's on crack+speedball.
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First time poster here. About using a 6SN7 in the Crack i got myself a 6sn7 to 12au7 adapter .it works alright but problem is sound level doesnt get very loud is there a modification that has to be done to use this tube .i was under the assumption it would work ok with adapter kinda puzzled .i heard of guys using this tube .
I used a 6sn7 adapter in my Crack for a year or so and rolled a number of 6sn7 tubes and didnt find any that lacked volume using Beyer T1 or HD800 my adapter was essentially plug and play. So its odds on that its either a problem with the adapter or the tube. Maybe get a inexpensive new 6sn7 to try. I do remember when looking into using the adapter myself that one or two Crack users on headfi were having noise issues with their adapters but mine worked fine from the off.
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I used a 6sn7 adapter in my Crack for a year or so and rolled a number of 6sn7 tubes and didnt find any that lacked volume using Beyer T1 or HD800 my adapter was essentially plug and play. So its odds on that its either a problem with the adapter or the tube. Maybe get a inexpensive new 6sn7 to try. I do remember when looking into using the adapter myself that one or two Crack users on headfi were having noise issues with their adapters but mine worked fine from the off.
Well i found the problem it wasnt with the adapters it was with the tube i used a Russian 6H9C tube and for some reason thats what happened i tested the tube it tested good so i tried the other Russion tube of the pair and same thing happened low volume and it also tested good weird so after that i tried a Kenrad vt-231 and everything is perfect so i dont understand ill go check data sheet of those Russians probably the problem is there .Thanks
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Punctuation is always appreciated. It makes posts a lot easier to read.
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Well I found the problem. It wasn't with the adapters. It was with the tube I used, a Russian 6H9C tube ...
Typo? A Russian 6H9C is a 6SL7, not a 6SN7. The Russian common 6SN7 equivalent is a 6H8C.
BTW, I used a 7N7 with a hardwired Loktal socket. Had to enlarge the hole for the Noval socket. Hate adapters!
Cheers,
Geary
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Was going to ask that too. I have found most 6H8C tubes are noisy with AC heating, you really need to run those on DC.
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Typo? A Russian 6H9C is a 6SL7, not a 6SN7. The Russian common 6SN7 equivalent is a 6H8C.
BTW, I used a 7N7 with a hardwired Loktal socket. Had to enlarge the hole for the Noval socket. Hate adapters!
Cheers,
Geary
Your right found that out when i saw the data sheet .
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Our first preamp kit, the Foreplay, offered two dual mono volume control pots as you described. I built several over they years, and I found it extremely tedious and difficult to ever get the channels balanced, and once they were balanced, I would never really want to adjust the volume because then I would have to start over and rebalance the channels at the new level.
Agreed. It makes adjusting volume a nightmare.
As I remembr, the guy who created the modification had imbalanced hearing.
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Just got myself a chatham 6080wa (black print) from vacuumtubes.net. Their service is excellent btw.
Nevetheless I must say it is a bit disappointing because the website says tung sol chatham 6080, instead of 6080wa.
The structural is visually (also audibly, i suppose) different from 6080.
Sound is fine but sadly not what i expected. My first impression is
it sounds slow, string instruments oustanding, not as airy as mullard cv2984 or the jan rca 6080wa that came with the crack.
*And it is noisy [added 23/03]
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Found this site, and thought this article was a good read. http://www.effectrode.com/signal-tubes/the-6sn7gt-the-best-general-purpose-dual-triode/
Their articles can be found here: http://www.effectrode.com/support/articles/
I also thought the "Tube Family Tree" series to be well done.
Enjoy.
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Just got myself a chatham 6080wa (black print) from vacuumtubes.net. Their service is excellent btw.
Nevetheless I must say it is a bit disappointing because the website says tung sol chatham 6080, instead of 6080wa.
The structural is visually (also audibly, i suppose) different from 6080.
Sound is fine but sadly not what i expected. My first impression is
it sounds slow, string instruments oustanding, not as airy as mullard cv2984 or the jan rca 6080wa that came with the crack.
*And it is noisy [added 23/03]
They sell used tubes and the quality various.
Return it and try a TS 6080WB.
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Hello everyone, hope everyone's having a nice weekend.
I just snapped up a Tung Sol 6AS7G, what are your thoughts about it? Nice tubes?
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Hello everyone, hope everyone's having a nice weekend.
I just snapped up a Tung Sol 6AS7G, what are your thoughts about it? Nice tubes?
I belive Nick's recommendations should be the first page of this topic. Very nice review of various 6as7g power tubes (not just for crack)
http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=663.465
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What is maximum heater current that it is possible to use with a stock Crack with speedball. Let's say i use a 5998 tube rated at 2.4A. heater current could i use a 1A. tube without problem .What i wanted to try is a ECC31 NR73/1280type rated at .95A. i know it works with adapters but is it safe longterm. Thanks
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3.5 A. So yes, a 6080 (2.5A) with ECC31 (0.95A) will work.
With the 5998 you're safe.
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They sell used tubes and the quality various.
Return it and try a TS 6080WB.
The postage is going to cost more than the tube itself.
Not sure if they sell 6080wb
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Another safe bet is the 6H13C Svetlana's sold on Ebay.
Does look the better and sounds great.
Buying tubes is mostly like a box of cookies.
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3.5 A. So yes, a 6080 (2.5A) with ECC31 (0.95A) will work.
With the 5998 you're safe.
The PT-3 power transformer can handle 3.5 amps of AC heating.
Not sure about the PT-10.
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Another safe bet is the 6H13C Svetlana's sold on Ebay.
Does look the better and sounds great.
Buying tubes is mostly like a box of cookies.
I am not a fan of that tube. And no way it can beat a TS 6080wb carbon plates.
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The postage is going to cost more than the tube itself.
Not sure if they sell 6080wb
Give them a call. They may still sell 5998 tube too at reasonable price.
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I finished the stock build in a couple of evenings and have been listening to the stock crack for 5 days now and it was time for some tube swapping.
I had a couple of 12AU7A (Electro-Harmonix and a CONN clear top) tubes in the cupboard and they sound a little better than the stock on my 650s. Listening to the CONN now. It seems add a bit more clarity, a nice sense of airiness to the top end and seems to dig a little deeper for some of the details, but this may be at a little cost to the bass. Ahh, the joys of tube rolling, what you gain on the swings you sometimes lose on the roundabouts :)
VALABS pot goes in next and then I'll have to buy a speedball and then look some more into tube rolling.
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Give them a call. They may still sell 5998 tube too at reasonable price.
They don't have any 5998 for over a year.
And it is unlikely they will in short time.
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guys, I won a WE421a auction on ebay lately.
The seller provided a photo of the testing result. I think it is about 70% strong but in terms of hours, how many do I have before replacement is needed?
Any input would be appreciated!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/421A-Western-Electric-Domino-Plate-Side-to-Side-Balance-5998-7236-6080-6AS7-/182545442144?nma=true&si=KgsMuS5i2jzuPaOLr4d69ar2XUk%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/421A-Western-Electric-Domino-Plate-Side-to-Side-Balance-5998-7236-6080-6AS7-/182545442144?nma=true&si=KgsMuS5i2jzuPaOLr4d69ar2XUk%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557)
PIC: http://imgur.com/a/ZD3QX
(http://imgur.com/a/ZD3QX)
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I finished the stock build in a couple of evenings and have been listening to the stock crack for 5 days now and it was time for some tube swapping.
I had a couple of 12AU7A (Electro-Harmonix and a CONN clear top) tubes in the cupboard and they sound a little better than the stock on my 650s. Listening to the CONN now. It seems add a bit more clarity, a nice sense of airiness to the top end and seems to dig a little deeper for some of the details, but this may be at a little cost to the bass. Ahh, the joys of tube rolling, what you gain on the swings you sometimes lose on the roundabouts :)
VALABS pot goes in next and then I'll have to buy a speedball and then look some more into tube rolling.
Conn 12au7 happens to be my stock tube came with the crack.
After rolling in cv4003 and mullard ecc32 over months, i still keep going back to CONN becasue of its airness and extension to the top. I do agree the comprosmise to the bass. But i am afriad there is no all round solution.
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guys, I won a WE421a auction on ebay lately.
The seller provided a photo of the testing result. I think it is about 70% strong but in terms of hours, how many do I have before replacement is needed?
Any input would be appreciated!
It's absolutely impossible to say. That tube could've produced those measurements the day it was manufactured for all we know.
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It's absolutely impossible to say. That tube could've produced those measurements the day it was manufactured for all we know.
The seller told me the same thing. He also said the tube is 90% strong where 4000 to 9000 hours continuous use should be fine.
I am just hoping it is true.
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You pays your money and you takes your chance. That's a part of DIY. IME tube vendors can't really have any idea how long a tube will last. Particularly a used one. They can only tell you how it tests and you can try to guess what that might translate to with respect to lifetime.
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You pays your money and you takes your chance. That's a part of DIY. IME tube vendors can't really have any idea how long a tube will last. Particularly a used one. They can only tell you how it tests and you can try to guess what that might translate to with respect to lifetime.
Apparently i have mistaken the readings as a reliable indicator of tubes’ health..
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It's a measurement which, depending upon the type of tester, might give you an indication of a tube's transconductance or heater emission. If it measures below spec it's most likely not going to perform correctly. If it measures well it will probably perform well assuming there are no noise issues. But you don't necessarily have a measurement that relates directly to how long it will perform to spec. Lifespan specifications for tubes are generally in the thousands of hours, so a tube that measures well and sounds good is probably worth investing in if it is what you desire.
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It's a measurement which, depending upon the type of tester, might give you an indication of a tube's transconductance or heater emission. If it measures below spec it's most likely not going to perform correctly. If it measures well it will probably perform well assuming there are no noise issues. But you don't necessarily have a measurement that relates directly to how long it will perform to spec. Lifespan specifications for tubes are generally in the thousands of hours, so a tube that measures well and sounds good is probably worth investing in if it is what you desire.
Thanks for the explanation, doc.
My apologies being off-topic a bit, do you have plan to make the speedball upgrade switchable? Meaning that one can switch back and forth between speedball’ed and stock crack by pushing, a botton maybe?
I will get the speedball regardless. Just that i think i will miss the sound from the current crack from time to time..
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We have no plan to do that.
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They don't have any 5998 for over a year.
And it is unlikely they will in short time.
Good to know.
They were selling 5998 for $85 a couple of years ago.
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Can someone help me ID this stock tube that came with my crack? I can't seem to decipher it.
thanks!
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Looks like a CBS black plate 12au7 with a date code of 52nd week 1958
Nice tube!
Debra
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Thank you Debra.
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Hi all, I built the stock Crack about a month ago and have been settling in with it. I like it so far, but I'm looking forward to the Speedball upgrade now.
When I was looking for 6080 tubes, I stumbled on a good deal for a Bendix graphite slotted plate. Turns out that tube was microphonic, but it still sounded good. I thought about spending the money to go straight to the top and get a 5998, but instead settled on ordering the Speedball. I sold the graphite plate and picked up a Winged C and a Gold Lion (the Russian pack). Compared to the stock Sylvania 6080, I prefer both the Bendix and the Russian. Against each other... hard to tell without the Bendix here to directly A-B, but from what I remember the difference isn't as big as I thought it would be.
At the prices the 5998 is at right now, it likely won't get any better and may become unobtainium. The graphite plates are also getting up there too. I want to thank everyone here recommending the Winged C - it's a great cheap tube and plays nicely with the Gold Lion.
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Hi all, I built the stock Crack about a month ago and have been settling in with it. I like it so far, but I'm looking forward to the Speedball upgrade now.
When I was looking for 6080 tubes, I stumbled on a good deal for a Bendix graphite slotted plate. Turns out that tube was microphonic, but it still sounded good. I thought about spending the money to go straight to the top and get a 5998, but instead settled on ordering the Speedball. I sold the graphite plate and picked up a Winged C and a Gold Lion (the Russian pack). Compared to the stock Sylvania 6080, I prefer both the Bendix and the Russian. Against each other... hard to tell without the Bendix here to directly A-B, but from what I remember the difference isn't as big as I thought it would be.
At the prices the 5998 is at right now, it likely won't get any better and may become unobtainium. The graphite plates are also getting up there too. I want to thank everyone here recommending the Winged C - it's a great cheap tube and plays nicely with the Gold Lion.
Bendix 6080WB is a great power tube. You driver tube may cause it sounds bad. I have a couple of Winged C but never a fan of it. Just my 2c.
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hey guys,
looking to possibly buy these two tubes from the used market. although i am a bit concerned about the RCA rebranded TS 5998's carbon'ed color domino plates. is that a sign that the tube is at end of its life?
see pic
i am also looking to possibly buy this TS 6080WA. i currently have a TS 6080WB slotted graphite column. can anyone identify this TS 6080WA? it doesn't look to be a graphite column, so my understanding that it isn't as special. does this mean it's just exactly the same as a stock Sylvania 6080WB?
look forward to hear your thoughts.
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hey guys,
looking to possibly buy these two tubes from the used market. although i am a bit concerned about the RCA rebranded TS 5998's carbon'ed color domino plates. is that a sign that the tube is at end of its life?
see pic
The question had been answered by Paul and Dr. B.
i am also looking to possibly buy this TS 6080WA. i currently have a TS 6080WB slotted graphite column. can anyone identify this TS 6080WA? it doesn't look to be a graphite column, so my understanding that it isn't as special. does this mean it's just exactly the same as a stock Sylvania 6080WB?
Doesn't look like a rebranded bendix on my phone.
You should go for this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/232327296459
look forward to hear your thoughts.
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thanks i looked it up. and seems matte black plates are a variation.
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has anyone dealt with this seller on ebay?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-TUNG-SOL-5998-TUBES-DOMINO-BLACK-PLATE-421A-TYPE-TWO-AVAILABLE-/182572854832?hash=item2a8230ae30:g:H8kAAOSwnF9Y770H
i am looking at possibly purchasing one of those 5998 from him. his listed price seem average, if anything slightly above average. i don't think i've seen one lower than $150 in the past 12 months per tube.
also are there any difference between a chrome top or a clear top? the seller mentioned in his comments that you need to specify which of the two you prefer.
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has anyone dealt with this seller on ebay?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-TUNG-SOL-5998-TUBES-DOMINO-BLACK-PLATE-421A-TYPE-TWO-AVAILABLE-/182572854832?hash=item2a8230ae30:g:H8kAAOSwnF9Y770H
i am looking at possibly purchasing one of those 5998 from him. his listed price seem average, if anything slightly above average. i don't think i've seen one lower than $150 in the past 12 months per tube.
also are there any difference between a chrome top or a clear top? the seller mentioned in his comments that you need to specify which of the two you prefer.
Be patient. http://www.ebay.com/itm/371645521761?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
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has anyone dealt with this seller on ebay?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-TUNG-SOL-5998-TUBES-DOMINO-BLACK-PLATE-421A-TYPE-TWO-AVAILABLE-/182572854832?hash=item2a8230ae30:g:H8kAAOSwnF9Y770H
i am looking at possibly purchasing one of those 5998 from him. his listed price seem average, if anything slightly above average. i don't think i've seen one lower than $150 in the past 12 months per tube.
also are there any difference between a chrome top or a clear top? the seller mentioned in his comments that you need to specify which of the two you prefer.
It has been listed for quite a while yet still not sold for reasons.
IMHO:
1). It is skeptical. Professionally match 8% (which is not that exceptional) between triode and cathode but no readings are provided? “Nos†is too general..
2.) 159 usd is way above the average (100usd nos these days).
3.) if you are about to pay that much money, why not we421a? Max. bid for a used, but as good as nos, 421A will settle at somewhere around 160usd. If i am not too wrong.
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Who is a "Professional Tube Matcher"? Is there an accredited school for that? Even professional wrestlers have to go to school.
Actually 8% matching is exceptional for these 6AS7 variants. They can be as far off as 20-30% between halves. It's also of little concern since we use the tube as a cathode follower where the differences from triode to triode are not that critical.
Some day we will design an amp that uses an obscure tube, that I will buy all remaining copies of in advance to releasing the amp. Then I could be the guy charging 5X what people should have the good sense to pay...
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sigh.... tube shopping is just so much headache. maybe i'll put the money into upgrading to a ladder dac instead.
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I finished my Crack recently and now experimenting with some other tubes. The stock tubes I received sound very good. They are Philips 6080WC 34167 and Raytheon 12AU7 A CC82. When I replaced them with a "Winged C" Svetlana 6H13C and RCA 12AU7A Clear Top I didn't hear any difference. The RCA 12AU7A Clear Top has "Con" stamped on the tube. I think I liked the stock tubes better. I initially got the replacements as spares while I was building.
So I recently scored four tubes on an eBay auction for $52. They were advertised as "4 Tung-Sol Chatham 6080 Rugged Tubes Dual Top D Getters Tested".
Would love to hear your experienced opinions on these tubes. What do you think?
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I finished my Crack recently and now experimenting with some other tubes. The stock tubes I received sound very good. They are Philips 6080WC 34167 and Raytheon 12AU7 A CC82. When I replaced them with a "Winged C" Svetlana 6H13C and RCA 12AU7A Clear Top I didn't hear any difference. The RCA 12AU7A Clear Top has "Con" stamped on the tube. I think I liked the stock tubes better. I initially got the replacements as spares while I was building.
So I recently scored four tubes on an eBay auction for $52. They were advertised as "4 Tung-Sol Chatham 6080 Rugged Tubes Dual Top D Getters Tested".
Would love to hear your experienced opinions on these tubes. What do you think?
congrats.
i personally have those Winged C tubes as well. i find them way too dark and muddy for my taste coming from a stock Sylvania 6080wc. but i guess it depends on what headphone you're using. on a brighter can, it can tame down the brightness. but it's just way too muddy and lay back for my taste. i shelved those for the time being. you might not notice a difference, but you might try the RCA 5963 for input tube. i find those give you a slight extra layer of openess without sacrificing any tonality. i actually love them so much that i just placed another order for three more as backup.
the TS 6080 rugged tubes you got, which if are the same ones i assume have been on sale for Ebay for a while, should be the black plate 6080. if they're indeed the black plated 6080, they "should" sound the same as the stock tubes. although i cannot attest, since i don't have them. that's just the online community consensus.
the TS 6080 graphite column series, especially one with slotted graphite column are the more sought after ones. i have one of those slotted graphite ones, and it's VERY open and airy, nice low end punch and very dynamic extension without any muddiness. supposedly it's close to TS 5998 domino plates, based on online community feedback. but again, i can't confirm, since i never got my hands on a TS 5998.
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congrats.
i personally have those Winged C tubes as well. i find them way too dark and muddy for my taste coming from a stock Sylvania 6080wc. but i guess it depends on what headphone you're using. on a brighter can, it can tame down the brightness. but it's just way too muddy and lay back for my taste. i shelved those for the time being. you might not notice a difference, but you might try the RCA 5963 for input tube. i find those give you a slight extra layer of openess without sacrificing any tonality. i actually love them so much that i just placed another order for three more as backup.
the TS 6080 rugged tubes you got, which if are the same ones i assume have been on sale for Ebay for a while, should be the black plate 6080. if they're indeed the black plated 6080, they "should" sound the same as the stock tubes. although i cannot attest, since i don't have them. that's just the online community consensus.
the TS 6080 graphite column series, especially one with slotted graphite column are the more sought after ones. i have one of those slotted graphite ones, and it's VERY open and airy, nice low end punch and very dynamic extension without any muddiness. supposedly it's close to TS 5998 domino plates, based on online community feedback. but again, i can't confirm, since i never got my hands on a TS 5998.
No, they are close to Bendix 6080wb.
TS 5998 tubes are not that expensive. The price of the more popular 6SN7/vt-231 has jumped more in the last couple of years.
Just found this one on e-bay. I have nothing to do or know anything about the seller.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tung-Sol-CTL-5998-Radio-Audio-Tube/371948712617?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649
For cheap 12au7, this specific tube pairs well with a Bendix 6080wb. Just this version, 5814A, black plate, bent square getter. All other RCAs are junk.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RCA-5814A-12AU7-ECC82-DUAL-TRIODE-TRIPLE-MICA-SQUARE-GETTER-/292093852701?hash=item4402267c1d:g:S~EAAOSwdIFXzc6N#rwid
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Just received a pair of RCA 12au7a Clear Tops cryotreated. I bought them of ebay.
I just want to check with you guys about few things, since Im a beginner.
1. I have noticed that the side getter is pretty dark/black at times, and the RCA logo and the date text is pretty worn off on bother of them. See attached picture, I can take more if needed.
2. But a more serious problem is that I hear a hiss in the background with both of these tubes.
I am using HD800S and DT 1770-Pro.
With no music playing, the hiss goes up as I turn up the volume. but it does not get so much louder after I have reached about 15% volume.
I have no problems with my other 12au7´s (Golden Lion and Sylvania stock). pitch black background on full volume.
The power tubes I have are 2x TS 5998 JAN and the stock Raytheon 6080.
I case it could be relevant, just want to note that I installed "TKD 2CP-2500" 2x weeks ago (before I got the Clear tops).
Voltage test was spot, and its sounds better then ever with my old tubes.
But let me know if you think I got issues.. with my crack.
Here are test results from the seller, just have to admit that I have not understood tube test results, but that knowledge I believe is just around the corner :)
TESTED IN AMPLITREX AT1000 ( www.amplitrex.com )
TUBE 1: 64/72% EMISSION . 63/63%GM ( TRANSCONDUCTANCE ) 0.6/0.2mA/V GAS.
TUBE 2: 64/60% EMISSION . 63/63%GM ( TRANSCONDUCTANCE ) 0.0/0.2mA/V GAS.
YOU CAN´T OBTAIN OTHERS SIMILAR TUBES WITH THIS HIGH TECNOLOGY PROCESS. READ MORE.........
Can I expect a RCA 12au7a clear top to have a higher noise floor in the crack or do I have bad tubes?
Or does my crack need further servicing?
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There has been a small spate of these kinds of posts lately. Here are some general rule of thumbs to use to make a decision about the value of rolling tubes
Rule 1 - if you put a different tube in and suddenly have noise it's most likely to be the tube, unless you broke something in the process of pushing the tube into the socket.
Rule 2 - declarations you will read of how unbelievably phenomenal a particular getter shape/color/date code/ blah blah blah that you are considering is is almost always based upon one sample, in a system different than yours.
Rule 3 - if the noise is coming only from the tube, it can't go up and down when you turn the volume control. The volume control is ahead of the tube. Noise that goes up and down with the volume control is coming from ahead of the volume control, i.e., cables or source component. Different tubes might expose more of this noise if they have more high frequency emphasis.
Rule 4 - whatever we might suggest will have little effect on what your results will be in negotiating with an ebay seller. Hence it is worthwhile to buy from sellers who take returns.
Rule 5 - most ebay sellers have no clue what those test results mean either. The tests used can approximate whether gain will be even between halves in a dual triode and give a general indication of tube health (how long the tube might have left, how much it might distort) but they have little to do with identifying if a tube will be noisy.
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No, they are close to Bendix 6080wb.
TS 5998 tubes are not that expensive. The price of the more popular 6SN7/vt-231 has jumped more in the last couple of years.
Just found this one on e-bay. I have nothing to do or know anything about the seller.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tung-Sol-CTL-5998-Radio-Audio-Tube/371948712617?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649
For cheap 12au7, this specific tube pairs well with a Bendix 6080wb. Just this version, 5814A, black plate, bent square getter. All other RCAs are junk.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RCA-5814A-12AU7-ECC82-DUAL-TRIODE-TRIPLE-MICA-SQUARE-GETTER-/292093852701?hash=item4402267c1d:g:S~EAAOSwdIFXzc6N#rwid
thanks for the feedback. i am actually going to give that RCA 5814A a try per your suggestion. will report back and let everyone know. :)
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There has been a small spate of these kinds of posts lately. Here are some general rule of thumbs to use to make a decision about the value of rolling tubes
Rule 1 - if you put a different tube in and suddenly have noise it's most likely to be the tube, unless you broke something in the process of pushing the tube into the socket.
Rule 2 - declarations you will read of how unbelievably phenomenal a particular getter shape/color/date code/ blah blah blah that you are considering is is almost always based upon one sample, in a system different than yours.
Rule 3 - if the noise is coming only from the tube, it can't go up and down when you turn the volume control. The volume control is ahead of the tube. Noise that goes up and down with the volume control is coming from ahead of the volume control, i.e., cables or source component. Different tubes might expose more of this noise if they have more high frequency emphasis.
Rule 4 - whatever we might suggest will have little effect on what your results will be in negotiating with an ebay seller. Hence it is worthwhile to buy from sellers who take returns.
Rule 5 - most ebay sellers have no clue what those test results mean either. The tests used can approximate whether gain will be even between halves in a dual triode and give a general indication of tube health (how long the tube might have left, how much it might distort) but they have little to do with identifying if a tube will be noisy.
Thanks for the feedback Doc.
I will start a new Crack treat since this is getting out of the tube rolling topic.
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thanks for the feedback. i am actually going to give that RCA 5814A a try per your suggestion. will report back and let everyone know. :)
Pls don't kill me if you don't like it. Everyone has his/her own preferences. LOL
Seldom have I been able to recommend some tubes without reservation. 7316 is one of those.
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Pls don't kill me if you don't like it. Everyone has their own preferences. LOL
i won't kill you, i'll probably just laugh it off. :P
it's not an expensive tube. my last combo purchase off the head-fi forum was a mix bag of good and bad as well. and surprisingly some of the supposed to be good tube, i ended up wasn't too impressed. the previous Winged C Russian Tube was also heavily hyped about, i also wasn't impressed, in fact i was very un-impressed. some of the recommended E80CC, TS 6080 Slotted Graphite Column, and RCA 5963 however all turned out really well. so i know it's all personal preference and mileage vary greatly. i am just glad that i am getting some good recommendations at the very least. that way at least i am not going out blindly purchasing tubes.
i also just purchased a pair of TS 7236 off ebay to give those a try as well. based on some of the previous recommendations off this forum and other forums, seems like it could be a good tube to try. got it for $45 each, not cheap, but not ridiculous either consider i've seen it much steeper. but i am sure someone else will chime in later and said they've found it cheaper lol.
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i won't kill you, i'll probably just laugh it off. :P
it's not an expensive tube. my last combo purchase off the head-fi forum was a mix bag of good and bad as well. and surprisingly some of the supposed to be good tube, i ended up wasn't too impressed. the previous Winged C Russian Tube was also heavily hyped about, i also wasn't impressed, in fact i was very impressed. some of the recommended E80CC, TS 6080 Slotted Graphite Column, and RCA 5963 however all turned out really well. so i know it's all personal preference and mileage vary greatly. i am just glad that i am getting some good recommendations at the very least. that way at least i am not going out blindly purchasing tubes.
i also just purchased a pair of TS 7236 off ebay to give those a try as well. based on some of the previous recommendations off this forum and other forums, seems like it could be a good tube to try. got it for $45 each, not cheap, but not ridiculous either consider i've seen it much steeper. but i am sure someone else will chime in later and said they've found it cheaper lol.
Good to know.
For new tube amp owners who are reading this thread, some suggestions. 8)
1. Ignore the recommendations from those tube sellers.
2. Ignore the extremely positive comments from someone just purchased a tube in the last couple of days.
3. Avoid impulse purchase and bidding wars.
4. Don't have to trust those "power sellers" on E--bay (i.e. desiremexxxx). They sometimes sell weak tubes as NOS.
5. Choose the tube you like most based on your taste.
6. Good pair of driver and power tubes will help you easily pass this test:
http://www.npr.org/sections/therecord/2015/06/02/411473508/how-well-can-you-hear-audio-quality
Enjoy!
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Good to know.
For new tube amp owners who are reading this thread, some suggestions. 8)
1. Ignore the recommendations from those tube sellers.
2. Ignore the extremely positive comments from someone just purchased a tube in the last couple of days.
3. Avoid impulse purchase and bidding wars.
this is a prime example that somehow i have a dark feeling that if one day i somehow score a TS 5998, it'll be a let down. the Bendix 6080 Graphite slot i have, as well as the incoming TS 7236 are supposed to be close to the TS 5998, BUT with more punch and spacious. it really just makes me think that the TS 5998 is overpriced by about 200% on ebay.
i followed that last Ebay auction TS 5998 you suggested, which was priced at $51 at the time of your suggestion. yesterday it ended at $149, which is right about almost near the price of $159 from the Buy-it-now one i posted earlier on this page.
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I recently bought a package of 4 output tubes on eBay. All but one has static. The one that doesn't have static sounds as good as the stock tube. One of them sounded very good and after a while caused static in one of the channels. Very disappointing. I knew I was taking a chance as the seller was offering them as is, no returns. They didn't cost much so I gave them a try.
As I was reading through this thread I found that Doc B. suggested a way to clean the pins. He said to chuck a q-tip into a drill after cutting the tip in half and cleaning the pins with metal polish. Then use deoxit on the pins.
I'm waiting on the deoxit that I ordered in the mail. Hope it works. Curious if anyone may have had luck revitalizing a static sounding tube with this method.
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. Curious if anyone may have had luck revitalizing a static sounding tube with this method.
Yes this has worked for me in the past even to the extent where one half of a tube was not working at all. A good clean up of the pins is sometimes all that is required.
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I recently bought a package of 4 output tubes on eBay. All but one has static. The one that doesn't have static sounds as good as the stock tube. One of them sounded very good and after a while caused static in one of the channels. Very disappointing. I knew I was taking a chance as the seller was offering them as is, no returns. They didn't cost much so I gave them a try.
As I was reading through this thread I found that Doc B. suggested a way to clean the pins. He said to chuck a q-tip into a drill after cutting the tip in half and cleaning the pins with metal polish. Then use deoxit on the pins.
I'm waiting on the deoxit that I ordered in the mail. Hope it works. Curious if anyone may have had luck revitalizing a static sounding tube with this method.
It depends.
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As I was reading through this thread I found that Doc B. suggested a way to clean the pins. He said to chuck a q-tip into a drill after cutting the tip in half and cleaning the pins with metal polish. Then use deoxit on the pins.
I'm waiting on the deoxit that I ordered in the mail. Hope it works. Curious if anyone may have had luck revitalizing a static sounding tube with this method.
Yes, it works quite often. It will depend of course on what is causing the static. And that is often a bad tube pin contact.
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just got the TS 7236. will reserve judgement until i can spend enough time with them. thus far, very obvious that it has a higher gain, so i have to turn the volume knob down a notch.
another thing i noticed is my god does this tube run HOT or what. anyone experience this? this is like the hottest tube i've experienced. previously the Sylvania/TS 6080, and Winged C never ran this hot.
EDIT:
ok, after about two nights 12+ hours of listening. i can say for certain that to my ears, the 7237 TS tube has more perceivable depth sound stage compare to the TS 6080, and the other 6080 tubes i had. the bass seems the same, if anything maybe slightly thicker than the TS 6080. strange, my impression sort of is the oppose compare to Nick-Seatle. he thought the TS 6080 was a bit more spacious. but to me and my system, it's exactly the opposite. the TS 6080 is pretty spacious already, but the TS 7236 just adds that extra layer of ambient air that's apparently apparent in vertical depth. one thing to note is that the TS 6080 is very sensitive to vibration and picks up any tiny vibration, and you hear it all. sometimes you have to tap on the crack's base plate to counteract the vibration to stabilize it. the 7236 on the other hand is dead silent. in terms of high and Mid, the two seem about the same. but just because i am all about the soundstage and spatial airiness, the 7236 gets my vote. i'll be sticking with the TS 7236 for a while. good thing i got a pair, now i have a backup. it's definitely a very sweet tube.
my RCA 5814A should be arriving from Holland in another week, i'll have that impression up soon.
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/162527576896?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
These are selling like hotcakes. I believe all will be gone in one day.
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What is the difference between 6SN7GT and 6SN7W?
(edit) After using google I found an answer. They're about the same, but the GT may be a bit stronger.
What is the difference between 6080WA, 6080WB, or just plain 6080? I haven't yet found an answer.
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What is the difference between 6SN7GT and 6SN7W?
(edit) After using google I found an answer. They're about the same, but the GT may be a bit stronger.
What is the difference between 6080WA, 6080WB, or just plain 6080? I haven't yet found an answer.
the 6080WB is a later revision of WA. they're exactly the same. so i was told.
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What is the difference between 6SN7GT and 6SN7W?
(edit) After using google I found an answer. They're about the same, but the GT may be a bit stronger.
What is the difference between 6080WA, 6080WB, or just plain 6080? I haven't yet found an answer.
Hi, BZ58, the Syl 6SN7W is one of the best 6SN7 tubes (military grade tube, long life, very very quite). They can be used as driver tubes with an adapter on Crack (same gains, but draw 0.6A).
http://www.fourwater.com/files/hist6sn7.txt
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The WA, WB, and WC are ruggedized versions with higher shock, vibration, and operating temperature levels. From memory the WB and WC have slightly higher voltage and dissipation levels too. For a Crack there is no difference.
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Thanks for the explanations.
Had static, thought it was the tubes, but found that I needed to reflow some of the connections, and now it works better than ever.
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Pls don't kill me if you don't like it. Everyone has his/her own preferences. LOL
Seldom have I been able to recommend some tubes without reservation. 7316 is one of those.
i just got the 5814A tube today, all the way from Holland.
i must say i am not a fan. the sound stage is a lot smaller than the RCA 5963 that i fell in love with. i guess if you're more into the more intimate stage, the 5814A would be the one for you and it is also slightly softer/warmer more tubey than the 5963, which actually is a good thing consider there's still a slight sharpness with HD800s. but since i am all about the wider soundstage, i am going to have to settle for the RCA 5963, which now i have total 3 of them (2 as backup). there is just a huge layer of air with 5963 RCA that i can't let go of. :P
thanks for the reco tho, it's always good to try different tubes. they're not BAD by any means. i like that they're tubey and smooth. just doesn't have the level of wide sound stage and air that i love provided by the 5963 RCA, i do wish the RCA 5963 would have 5814A's kind of tubey smoothness tho. guess you can't have everything.
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For what it's worth, the 5963 has a higher-purity cathode, making it suitable for computer operations where the tube may be cut off for extended periods. Often in audio, these oddball requirements make a tube that sounds better; this is one of those times.
And yes, I did learn to program an IBM 709 computer which was tube-based - the 7094 was the transistorized version. This would have been the early sixties, when I was in high school. The computer occupied the basement of the Mechanical Engineering building at the University of Washington. Legend had it that there was one person whose full-time job was to go up and down the aisles with a shopping cart of spares, replacing tubes before they wore out. I never met the person, so I can't confirm the story, but I still tell it anyhow. :^)
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For what it's worth, the 5963 has a higher-purity cathode, making it suitable for computer operations where the tube may be cut off for extended periods. Often in audio, these oddball requirements make a tube that sounds better; this is one of those times.
And yes, I did learn to program an IBM 709 computer which was tube-based - the 7094 was the transistorized version. This would have been the early sixties, when I was in high school. The computer occupied the basement of the Mechanical Engineering building at the University of Washington. Legend had it that there was one person whose full-time job was to go up and down the aisles with a shopping cart of spares, replacing tubes before they wore out. I never met the person, so I can't confirm the story, but I still tell it anyhow. :^)
lol.. i would love to see that shopping cart.
btw what do you mean by "where the tubes may be cut off for extended periods". do you mean they shut down the power to the tube and turn it back on?
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In this case, "cutoff" means when the tube has a normal plate voltage and a large negative grid voltage (both relative to the cathode voltage). Thus very little current flows. In a digital computer, the tube is either conducting heavily or not at all. IT was discovered that when a tube is cut off like this for extended periods, the emissive outer layer of the cathode closes down and reduces the available current when it is needed - sometimes called cathode sleeping sickness. The solution is to uses a nickle cathode base material - I don't remember exactly, but I think it's especially low in silicon.
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In this case, "cutoff" means when the tube has a normal plate voltage and a large negative grid voltage (both relative to the cathode voltage). Thus very little current flows. In a digital computer, the tube is either conducting heavily or not at all. IT was discovered that when a tube is cut off like this for extended periods, the emissive outer layer of the cathode closes down and reduces the available current when it is needed - sometimes called cathode sleeping sickness. The solution is to uses a nickle cathode base material - I don't remember exactly, but I think it's especially low in silicon.
Thanks for the explanation. I remember reading up on how tubes work and its relation to modern day semi conductor. I was wondering about whether or not in tube audio the negative charged cathold ever stops flowing to the plate or if that only happens on tube based computer environment.
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Anyone have anything to say about the DEAFidelity Soviet 6H13Cs available at amazon?
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Hey guys, I'm in the process of building the Crack with Speedball and was wondering what tubes to get? I want a fast, detailed and fairly neutral sound from the amp paired with the HD650. I was considering the Tung Sol 7236 (Since the 5998 are out of my price range), Tung Sol 6AS7G or some cheaper Sovtek 6AS7G. Anyone have any input or other suggestions?
Also just double checking that the 7236 can be used with the crack without any mods needed?
Thanks
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Hey everyone, a seller is willing to sell a pair of Tronix 6AS7G tubes. They're made in USA. Does anyone have any info on these tubes?
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Hey guys, I'm in the process of building the Crack with Speedball and was wondering what tubes to get? I want a fast, detailed and fairly neutral sound from the amp paired with the HD650. I was considering the Tung Sol 7236 (Since the 5998 are out of my price range), Tung Sol 6AS7G or some cheaper Sovtek 6AS7G. Anyone have any input or other suggestions?
Also just double checking that the 7236 can be used with the crack without any mods needed?
Thanks
http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=663.465
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Hey everyone, a seller is willing to sell a pair of Tronix 6AS7G tubes. They're made in USA. Does anyone have any info on these tubes?
You'd have to provide a picture. Tronix isn't a tube manufacturer, so the tube in question is likely to be an RCA.
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Hey guys, I'm in the process of building the Crack with Speedball and was wondering what tubes to get? I want a fast, detailed and fairly neutral sound from the amp paired with the HD650. I was considering the Tung Sol 7236 (Since the 5998 are out of my price range), Tung Sol 6AS7G or some cheaper Sovtek 6AS7G. Anyone have any input or other suggestions?
Also just double checking that the 7236 can be used with the crack without any mods needed?
Thanks
Build the Crack standard and use it for a while to get it's sound in the brain. Add Speedwell and do the same. Only then think about spending(wasting) money on oddball changes to the good and well considered stock tubes. You can seriously damage your wallet buying tubes that you might just think are better along with those that which are worse. Even the small number of tubes that get praised can vary and not give any useful improvement. Listen to the music, not the equipment. ;D
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Thanks guys will do. I guess I'll just try get used to the sound of it for a while. Almost finished building the standard crack so I'll be listening to it soon ;D
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Build the Crack standard and use it for a while to get it's sound in the brain. Add Speedwell and do the same. Only then think about spending(wasting) money on oddball changes to the good and well considered stock tubes. You can seriously damage your wallet buying tubes that you might just think are better along with those that which are worse. Even the small number of tubes that get praised can vary and not give any useful improvement. Listen to the music, not the equipment. ;D
True. We need to get rid of the dac/tube amp.
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Hey all just got my crack out again after a while. I have a Svetlana 6h13c and an rca clear top on it. My cans are hd 650s, I feel like the sound from this tube combination is quite bright , almost etched at times, and I'm looking for a more spacious slghltly darker sound with lovely midrange, still detailed with good bass. Does anybody have suggestions as to a combination that would yield this type of sound, but does not break the bank, like a Tung sol 5998 for example.
Thanks in advance.☺ï¸
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The answer you seek is in the thread linked below:
http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=663.0 (http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=663.0)
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OK. Someone is selling hundreds of 7236 on bay. Price is very reasonable.
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The "check" to see if it is the tube or the amp would be to try a different tube. You have done that. From the obvious conclusions drawn from that test, the solution to this noise issue is a simple two step process.
Step one: Put in the 6080.
Step two: Listen and enjoy.
I really enjoy the soundstage that the 5998 gives the crack.
1. Clean the pins.
2. Try another drive tube?
Do you have any suggestions of drive tubes that sound good with the 5998 (I don't have the speedball kit installed yet)? I only have the 12AU7 that came with my kit.
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I like a TS smoke glass 12au7 with the 5998. 7316 is too expensive.
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Got a GEC 6080 tube today. It has a very weird start-up flash/fluorescence! Here's a quick video I shot: https://streamable.com/4kkaa.
Is this normal?
Sounds phenomenal though, beautiful sound.
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I see your 12AU7 doing a bit of a flash, not the 6080. This is often referred to as "The Mullard Flash" and isn't anything abnormal.
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I see your 12AU7 doing a bit of a flash, not the 6080. This is often referred to as "The Mullard Flash" and isn't anything abnormal.
Hey, if you wait a bit longer into the video, you can see the power tube fluoresce.
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Oh that's strange. I think magnesium vapor might glow that color. Is the tube otherwise functional and quiet? If so, I'd leave the amp on with that tube running for 7-10 days to give the getter a chance to do its job.
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The pattern doesn't look like gas, so no need to worry. Looks more like electrons impinging on some fluorescent or phosphorescent material in the glass (zinc oxide, maybe?).
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Thanks for the reply PB and Doc!
The tube seems to be working perfectly. I'd highly recommend the GEC 6080.
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Thanks for the reply PB and Doc!
The tube seems to be working perfectly. I'd highly recommend the GEC 6080.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Az9poDQN6ag
??? :-X :-\ :'(
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I guess that guy didn't want to replace just the power tube. Might as well let that sucker burn, and take out the output transformer too, right?
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Hello. I'm new to tube rolling with the crack. For my first time to replace stock i went with a 7236 Tung-Sol for my power tube and i'm finding it pretty interesting, quite the change from the stock RCA that came with my unit, the instrumental parts are much more present to where i feel like i'm sitting right by the band but the vocals aren't as prominent and don't stand out as much as i typically enjoy and tends to be a focus on basic setups to emphasize vocals and so it was somewhat of a drastic change for me but it's interesting.... and now i want to get a new input tube, firstly i went with a NOS Tesla which hasn't shipped yet, and now i have my eyes on a Brimar yellow T.
I found a 6060 yellow T from the early 60s on tubeampdoctor which i could go with.
There's also cv4024 and a 6059 yellow T on valvetubes with little info provided and i could get both of them for the price of the 6060.
And i just found another one on bestsfad.top which has 4 of the 6060 at only 43.99.
How do i know what's a good buy and what isn't? There isn't really a lot of info or high quality pictures in a lot of these various listings.
Are any of these good options or should i keep looking elsewhere?
Also, another question. I'm more interested in medium range priced tubes than the best as i find i'm the most comfortable in this range in most things and was wondering if there was any up to date list of reputable vendors for this tube/valve range that exists? Is simply going by Ebay ratings a good enough indication of getting legit valves/tubes? It's very overwhelming coming into this whole thing with so many different things to look for and not knowing what's a sure thing. So far i like thetubeking on Ebay because they show dates and where the tubes come from and don't shy away from the fact the tubes might not be the best unlike a lot of the others on Ebay which hypes up every tube. That's where i got the Tesla but it's difficult to know what's legit or not.
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Hello. I'm new to tube rolling with the crack. For my first time to replace stock i went with a 7236 Tung-Sol for my power tube and i'm finding it pretty interesting, quite the change from the stock RCA that came with my unit, the instrumental parts are much more present to where i feel like i'm sitting right by the band but the vocals aren't as prominent and don't stand out as much as i typically enjoy and tends to be a focus on basic setups to emphasize vocals and so it was somewhat of a drastic change for me but it's interesting.... and now i want to get a new input tube, firstly i went with a NOS Tesla which hasn't shipped yet, and now i have my eyes on a Brimar yellow T.
I found a 6060 yellow T from the early 60s on tubeampdoctor which i could go with.
There's also cv4024 and a 6059 yellow T on valvetubes with little info provided and i could get both of them for the price of the 6060.
And i just found another one on bestsfad.top which has 4 of the 6060 at only 43.99.
How do i know what's a good buy and what isn't? There isn't really a lot of info or high quality pictures in a lot of these various listings.
Are any of these good options or should i keep looking elsewhere?
Also, another question. I'm more interested in medium range priced tubes than the best as i find i'm the most comfortable in this range in most things and was wondering if there was any up to date list of reputable vendors for this tube/valve range that exists? Is simply going by Ebay ratings a good enough indication of getting legit valves/tubes? It's very overwhelming coming into this whole thing with so many different things to look for and not knowing what's a sure thing. So far i like thetubeking on Ebay because they show dates and where the tubes come from and don't shy away from the fact the tubes might not be the best unlike a lot of the others on Ebay which hypes up every tube. That's where i got the Tesla but it's difficult to know what's legit or not.
Sorry, I don't think you can use ecc81/6060 tubes on a Crack. You need a 12au7/ecc82/7316/5814/cv4003/cv491/ecc802/b749.
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Sorry, I don't think you can use ecc81/6060 tubes on a Crack. You need a 12au7/ecc82/7316/5814/cv4003/cv491/ecc802/b749.
Oh really? Well dang. I had my heart set on the yellow T.
Thanks for the response. At least i found that out before i bought it as i was close to buying it. I figured it was an "equivalent to" as there seems to be so many equivalents and i read a description of it under an 12AT7 tube guide. I guess i should just stick to those specific tubes listed then to be sure.
Okay, so... regarding the Brimar cv4003 there's an Ebay seller out of India called Totempole that has NOS listings of this. A single and double. Anyone have experience with this seller having legit NOS? Upscaleaudio seems to charge for one of the same tube at platinum grade that the Ebay seller lists for two of them.
Oh and one other thing. So ECC83 definitely doesn't work? Only ECC82? I've come across a lot of ecc83 and so it would be good to know for sure.
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Oh really? Well dang. I had my heart set on the yellow T.
Thanks for the response. At least i found that out before i bought it as i was close to buying it. I figured it was an "equivalent to" as there seems to be so many equivalents and i read a description of it under an 12AT7 tube guide. I guess i should just stick to those specific tubes listed then to be sure.
A 12AT7 and a 12AU7 are very different tubes.
Oh and one other thing. So ECC83 definitely doesn't work? Only ECC82? I've come across a lot of ecc83 and so it would be good to know for sure.
A 12AX7 (ECC83) and a 12AU7 are very different tubes.
The direct coupling in the Crack means that you need to stick to 12AU7 types or you will damage your amplifier. Using a 12AT7 will bring the bias voltage for the 6080 up and you will burn up the 3K resistors in the process. The 12AT7 also has a lot more gain, and that will make the amplifier more difficult to use.
The 12AX7 will do the same thing, but much worse. It will draw so little current through the plate load resistor that the amount of signal that you can send through the Crack will be severely limited. Whatever does go through will also be very distorted (Because the amp is designed for the 12AU7, not the 12AX7).
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Alright thanks. Glad i asked then. I was under a different impression due to seeing these various equivalents thrown around and things being lumped together. I thought it was all under one umbrella.
Good to know. I will stay with the 12au7 and ecc82 and avoid the other stuff. Luckily my Tesla that i ordered is an ecc82 and so i'm still in a good place for now. I haven't moved forward with any other tubes yet before i had more info. Always good to ask questions/research before rushing in.
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Sometimes you will see these thrown around for guitar amps, where substituting one tube for another may impart "tone" into the amplifier, which is to say that the substituted tube is running poorly.
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So, i received my Tesla tube from the Tube King and replacing my previous input tube that came with my unit. I bought my speedball crack from someone else and now i discover it had a 12bh7a. The only extra markings that were still there was USA and "NC".
What's up with this tube? I see it's marked as "sort of" a drop in equivalent on the first page. The fact that i've been running the crack with this input tube does this mean i can safely tube roll this 12bh7a tube?
Using my new Tesla in combination with my Tung-Sol 7236 so far i'm liking what i'm hearing. It's familiar to what i usually enjoy than the previous setup with vocals being more prominent and feels more musical but i do kind of miss how close i felt to the instrumentals with the previous tube. There's more distance with this one but that distance also makes it a bit more pleasant to my ears where i can sit back and take it all in easier. So far how i would describe them is with this Tesla ecc82 i'd sit back and chill out getting lost in the vibe of the music as a whole sound and the vocals for awhile whereas with the 12bh7a i'd have more intense listening sessions/feeling closer to the sound and paying attention more and being in every moment of separated instrumentation.
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There are adjustments to be made for the 12BH7 to bias properly in the Crack.
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There are adjustments to be made for the 12BH7 to bias properly in the Crack.
That's the tube that came with my unit and i've been running it awhile not realizing which tube was in there. Does this basically mean i could order any 12BH7 off ebay and should be okay using it since i've been using one or are they different from tube to tube and i should avoid trying others? Basically what i mean is since one of them worked does that mean all of them will work. The person i ordered it from was some type of studio engineer and so i assume he knows his stuff and must've modified it but i have no way of knowing how much or what he did to it.
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The person i ordered it from was some type of studio engineer and so i assume he knows his stuff
Thanks for the chuckle.
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Thanks for the chuckle.
:-[
Don't think he was an engineer or don't think they know their stuff? Well, he knows way more than i do that's for sure hehe.
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The only ways to know if it was modded are to measure voltages or measure the plate load/c4s R1 resistors on the 9 pin socket.
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The only ways to know if it was modded are to measure voltages or measure the plate load/c4s R1 resistors on the 9 pin socket.
But i've been using that tube for like 2 years at least. I just started tube rolling but i've had my unit for like 2 years now. If using that tube requires modification and i'm using the tube without any problems doesn't that suggest it's been modified to use that tube already or how could i be using the tube? I guess it's better to be safe than sorry and i should just stick to the basic stuff and that one tube that i already know works since i don't have any real understanding of the technical stuff. That's why i chose to buy it and not build it.
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The modifications would align the plate voltage of the 12BH7 to properly bias the 6080. In an unmodified amp, the output tube won't bias well. The amp will still work, but won't perform as well as it should.
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The modifications would align the plate voltage of the 12BH7 to properly bias the 6080. In an unmodified amp, the output tube won't bias well. The amp will still work, but won't perform as well as it should.
Oh okay.
The signs do seem to point to it being modified, it was used and that's what the previous owner was using, it's been working for 2 years without any problems and it sounds really good to me with that tube, but... yeah it's probably best to err on the side of caution since i don't know what i'm doing.
Alright. Thanks for all the help and responses and info. I think i have enough info to begin exploring more tubes. It would've been a disaster had i not asked. I should be okay in knowing what to avoid and what to look for now.
I am changing my mind on this Tesla ecc82 though from my initial impressions. There's an overwhelming white noise to it while it's idle compared to my other tube that's nearly silent and even though the music drowns it out it can be distracting, also there's a feeling of being what i can only describe as underwater in it's distance that i'm not liking. Cmon Yugoslavia, if you're going to use the name of the legendary Nikola Tesla you've gotta step up your game. It's not too bad for certain distorted dreampop/shoegazer/electronic music and vocals but i think i'm passing on this tube at least in combination with the 7236 Tung-Sol since that's what i tried it with i can't say if it might be better in a different setup. First exploration tube, the pre-JJ (not JJ) Yugoslavian Tesla ecc82 is concluded to be unsatisfactory.
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Try cooking that tube for 50 hours and see if it changes. A large percentage of tubes need to be heated up for some time to get the cathode emission optimized and the noise floor minimized.
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Try cooking that tube for 50 hours and see if it changes. A large percentage of tubes need to be heated up for some time to get the cathode emission optimized and the noise floor minimized.
Hmmm. Could you expand a bit on what "cooking that tube" means? Is that like a break in period torture test kind of thing? I'm assuming it doesn't mean heating it up in a skillet like some eggs.
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Yup, just run it for 50 hours.
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Yup, just run it for 50 hours.
Alright. Thanks again. I've ran it a lot over the course of a 3 day period or so as i also use my Crack to watch movies/tv series in addition to music but i suppose i could try and give it a bit more of a push and see if there's any change.
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Wow. That's uncanny. Powering things up today and there isn't the same level of white noise as yesterday and things do seem less "underwater" than before and not just a perception thing it's clearly noticeable from how overwhelming it was. What the... 'twas like it was right on cue from your post. That's freaky lol.
There's still hope for Yugoslavia!
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Read the forum every now and then, first-time Bottlehead Crack (Loved the Build and it sounds great!) user looking for some tube rolling help. Maybe it's early to start tube rolling, but I live 10 minutes away from The Tube Store, and they have a great black Friday sale (40% off all items) so I figure I better start now. I don't have the speedball installed yet, but I will later, for what it's worth. I've chosen my 6080 replacement, the Winged "C" 6H13C / 6AS7G. I have narrowed things down to three options for the 12AU7 replacement:
Philips ECC82 / 12AU7
JJ ECC802-S / 12AU7 Gold
Genalex - Gold Lion ECC82 / B749
I'm not too concerned about price, but the Philips is $90, which seems like a lot, but if it has such a big difference... Demoing the tubes is also an option since they allow returns with a 15% restocking fee. But I'd like to avoid paying a 15% fee on that Philips. Hopefully, someone knowledgeable can explain the sonic differences and advantages. I am open to other options, but when it comes to the deal at The Tube Store, these are the only in stock options. Thanks in advance for the help, I'm looking forward to going even further in the DIY audio world!
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I'll just throw out there that for $90 you could buy six different $15 12AU7s on ebay and roll through them to judge for yourself which works best in your system.
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I'll just throw out there that for $90 you could buy six different $15 12AU7s on ebay and roll through them to judge for yourself which works best in your system.
That’s a pretty good point, I think I’d like to stray from that one anyway. What would you recommend between the other two? I guess that’s a bit of a loaded question...
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I wouldn't expect either of those new production tubes to sound quite as good as the old stock tubes we provide with the kit.
For $15-25, you should be able to score a Mullard 12AU7 on eBay.
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I wouldn't expect either of those new production tubes to sound quite as good as the old stock tubes we provide with the kit.
For $15-25, you should be able to score a Mullard 12AU7 on eBay.
Would that be your top recommendation any others? What about the 6080 I had mentioned, any thoughts on that?
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I haven't actually listened to the newer Russian 6AS7G.
An Amperex, Mullard, Telefunken, or Siemens 12AU7 would be high on my list. Since I'm a bit of a cheapskate, I would look for a 12AU7 made on European tooling in a different country.
This is a nice deal Telefunken 12AU7 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/TELEFUNKEN-ECC82-12AU7-Vintage-Preamp-Tube-great-matched-sections-date-Boc25-VGC/222721713933?epid=140998775&hash=item33db3fa70d:g:9aQAAOSwk1haA822#viTabs_0).
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I haven't actually listened to the newer Russian 6AS7G.
An Amperex, Mullard, Telefunken, or Siemens 12AU7 would be high on my list. Since I'm a bit of a cheapskate, I would look for a 12AU7 made on European tooling in a different country.
This is a nice deal Telefunken 12AU7 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/TELEFUNKEN-ECC82-12AU7-Vintage-Preamp-Tube-great-matched-sections-date-Boc25-VGC/222721713933?epid=140998775&hash=item33db3fa70d:g:9aQAAOSwk1haA822#viTabs_0).
Thanks for the link - I emailed the seller about shipping to Canada. Right now, I think that’s by best option.
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Read the forum every now and then, first-time Bottlehead Crack (Loved the Build and it sounds great!) user looking for some tube rolling help. Maybe it's early to start tube rolling, but I live 10 minutes away from The Tube Store, and they have a great black Friday sale (40% off all items) so I figure I better start now. I don't have the speedball installed yet, but I will later, for what it's worth. I've chosen my 6080 replacement, the Winged "C" 6H13C / 6AS7G. I have narrowed things down to three options for the 12AU7 replacement:
Philips ECC82 / 12AU7
JJ ECC802-S / 12AU7 Gold
Genalex - Gold Lion ECC82 / B749
I'm not too concerned about price, but the Philips is $90, which seems like a lot, but if it has such a big difference... Demoing the tubes is also an option since they allow returns with a 15% restocking fee. But I'd like to avoid paying a 15% fee on that Philips. Hopefully, someone knowledgeable can explain the sonic differences and advantages. I am open to other options, but when it comes to the deal at The Tube Store, these are the only in stock options. Thanks in advance for the help, I'm looking forward to going even further in the DIY audio world!
I don't recommend expensive power tubes (GEC 6as7g, 421A etc.) for the crack. If you have the $$, I hope you will upgrade the caps first.
There are a lot of choice for driver tubes which can be obtained at very reasonable price (i.e. the one Paul suggested).
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I have it on good authority that Santa is bringing me a pair of Beyer T1s to go along with my crack w/speedball. Currently using stock tubes, considering trying something else. Are there any in particular that work well with the T1?
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Hello fellow addicts,
I just finished building my Crack on Sunday night (late night project when kids are asleep). Still need more hours to burn it in and my low frequencies just opened up. Loving it, fantastic kit and great manual!
I'm new to tubes and I like the ones that came with the Crack a lot. I'm very curious about the tubes I got, year of production, factory, etc. Could you help me out?
- 12au7 is Sylvania GMS AJR made in USA
- 6080 is a Philips 6080WC JAN 34167 USA, 8539 AAZ
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I can't help you with the tubes, but nice work on your Crack. Welcome to the world of tubes.
Jay L.
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I can't help you with the tubes, but nice work on your Crack. Welcome to the world of tubes.
Jay L.
Thanks Jay! Tubes are so hot! ("cool" doesn't seem to be the right word for it)
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- 12au7 is Sylvania GMS AJR made in USA
- 6080 is a Philips 6080WC JAN 34167 USA, 8539 AAZ
The 6080 is likely from the 39th week of 1985. There are identical 6080s from the same time period with the same construction and the same color of printing that are labeled as Sylvania tubes, so that is likely the producing factory. The lack of 5 acid etched dots (GE) and the acid etched stop sign (RCA) pretty much leaves Sylvania as the producer by the process of elimination.
The 12AU7 is a Sylvania gray plate. The letter codes on those Sylvania tubes are believed to be lot codes, but they haven't been connected to any specific dates that I'm aware of.
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The 6080 is likely from the 39th week of 1985. There are identical 6080s from the same time period with the same construction and the same color of printing that are labeled as Sylvania tubes, so that is likely the producing factory. The lack of 5 acid etched dots (GE) and the acid etched stop sign (RCA) pretty much leaves Sylvania as the producer by the process of elimination.
The 12AU7 is a Sylvania gray plate. The letter codes on those Sylvania tubes are believed to be lot codes, but they haven't been connected to any specific dates that I'm aware of.
Thanks a lot Paul, that's what I was looking for! (and I managed to find my post moved in here too :D, phew I was thinking I broke a forum rule and post got deleted)
I've been reading this thread and I got the tubes in the picture on an impulse (which rarely happens)... I just had to see the difference. All I can say right now is that I left the Gold Lion in and I'm not sure I can take it out ... it's too good.
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Thanks a lot Paul, that's what I was looking for! (and I managed to find my post moved in here too :D, phew I was thinking I broke a forum rule and post got deleted)
I've been reading this thread and I got the tubes in the picture on an impulse (which rarely happens)... I just had to see the difference. All I can say right now is that I left the Gold Lion in and I'm not sure I can take it out ... it's too good.
Unfortunately, these are all ......
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I built the Crack + Speedball amp a few years back and of course love it. Last year I rolled in a Brimar CV4003 input tube. Now looking to "upgrade" the power tube. Any recommendations?
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so someone on eBay is selling both an RCA and Sylvania 6AS7G with returns available - can anyone comment on the sound of these tubes? haven't rolled any power tubes, and stock for me is Philips JAN 6080WC
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I built the Crack + Speedball amp a few years back and of course love it. Last year I rolled in a Brimar CV4003 input tube. Now looking to "upgrade" the power tube. Any recommendations?
I built my Crack back in December and I've spent the last two months rolling power tubes and 12au7's (no time to waste!). I've rolled the stock 6080, Mullard CV2984, Tung Sol 6AS7G, Tung Sol 7236, and Tung Sol 5998. IMO, and like many other people on this forum, the 5998 is the very best of the bunch, best air, soundstage, detail, clarity. If you are patient, you can get one for $75-100 on Ebay, but more often you will see them going for around $150. A more budget friendly and more readily available upgrade is the Mullard CV2984, which is a very nice tube for around $50 on Ebay. If you search this thread, this has been discussed ad nauseum but these two tubes are very often recommended.
Hope that helps!
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So I went on eBay.
I’m still waiting on my Crack kit (any day now, ordered 25.12! ;D) but I was determined to not let a minor detail like that deter me from getting a head start at tube rolling.
-gotta be prepared!
Here’s the thing:
The listing said RCA Clear Top 12AU7($20 for a pair), the tubes themselves say zilch.
Have a look at the attached photos.
They look like what Google says Clear Tops should look like, but there are no logos or other markings on the tubes.
Is there any reason to be apprehensive about stuffing these in my amp down the line?
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Those are RCA clear tops. If they test well, they should work well in the Crack.
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Super, thanks, Paul!
Yeah I’ve read quite a few recommendations for the Clear Tops so I figured it couldn’t help to get a couple for posterity :)
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so I was told to try a 6sn7 with one of the Garage1217 adaptors, and it came today with a Raytheon 6sn7gt which extends lower than the stock GE 12au7a and has a wider soundstage, yet with a lot more distortion and a bunch of microphonics, plus I think it looks stupid as the adaptor is misaligned and every 6sn7 seems to look just like a big rod, and a not insignificant part of tubes for me is the look of them so I'm going to try flipping this forward and just getting a better 12au7. I'm looking at moving my power tube from a Philips JAN6080wc to a Sovtek 6as7g, and moving that GE 12au7a to... something. I've heard good things about new tung sols and mullards, though I've heard myths about rca clear tops even if they're a bit pricier, not to mention tung sol's NOS 5998's. can I get any recommendations on tubes to move to? I like a somewhat warm sound (crack and hd650s yea) and the wide soundstage of the raytheon is super fun, tho I also don't like the music to sound too smeary and to retain its detail and punch.
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There are Tung Sol 7236s on eBay right now for ~$30...great buy.
I wouldn't give up on the 6SN7s so easily...I run mine with the same adapter and a TS Mouse Ears...but...I also have tried Sylvania GTB, Ken rad VT-231, and NU Black Glass...all different, and frankly, I enjoyed them all (other than the GTB) more than the supplied 12AU7.
Having said that...I never bought/rolled any additional 12AU7s.
Also..If you want to try something different for aesthetics...you could pair a Melz 1578 (6SN7 equivalent, metal base) with a TS 7236 metal base.
I liked the cheap 1950's Soviet 6N5S quite a bit...but...I like the gain/clarity on the 7236 quite a bit more!
Good luck...Have fun.
-Mark in St. Louis
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and moving that GE 12au7a to... something. I've heard good things about new tung sols and mullards, though I've heard myths about rca clear tops even if they're a bit pricier
Why not get a real Mullard tube? There are plenty of used but good vintage Mullard 12AU7s for under $20.
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so I was told to try a 6sn7 with one of the Garage1217 adaptors, and it came today with a Raytheon 6sn7gt which extends lower than the stock GE 12au7a and has a wider soundstage, yet with a lot more distortion and a bunch of microphonics, plus I think it looks stupid as the adaptor is misaligned and every 6sn7 seems to look just like a big rod, and a not insignificant part of tubes for me is the look of them so I'm going to try flipping this forward and just getting a better 12au7. I'm looking at moving my power tube from a Philips JAN6080wc to a Sovtek 6as7g, and moving that GE 12au7a to... something. I've heard good things about new tung sols and mullards, though I've heard myths about rca clear tops even if they're a bit pricier, not to mention tung sol's NOS 5998's. can I get any recommendations on tubes to move to? I like a somewhat warm sound (crack and hd650s yea) and the wide soundstage of the raytheon is super fun, tho I also don't like the music to sound too smeary and to retain its detail and punch.
There are a lot of 6SN7GT tubes to roll. I and a couple of others have better luck than you.
Yes, you do need a better power tube. Why not save the $$ on those cheap tubes and go directly to a Bendix 6080WB and/or a 5998? BTW, rca clear-top is ss sound, not warm at all. You may like smoke glass TS 12au7.
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fwiw the RCA clear top tube can also be easily and cheaply found on ebay branded as CONN just search CONN 12AU7 and any Conn branded 12au7 tubes with clear tops are the RCA made 12AU7 clear top you will find plenty out there for just a few dollars.
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Ok, new to this game. Got a crack, like everyone else on this thread. Been rolling some 6as7g's. Found some from Canada. Branded Philips and look exactly like a RCA, sounds a whole lot better... Got another one on order to see if this was just a freak tube or these are something special. I'm hoping on the latter as these only cost $22 delivered to Australia. Also went and bit the bullet and got a 5998. Wow, an amazing sound, so wide and detailed. I'm running some LCD-3's and always found the 6as7g sounded a bit muddy in the mid range. The 5998 lifted the lid on this. So endgame solution... I wish...I foolishly when and swapped out the output caps with some axon true caps...2 x 56 mike in parallel per channel. Swapped out the 5998 for my least favourite 6s7g (in case all went wrong and I detonate a tube) and flicked the switch......5 minutes warm up.....then i fed in my favourite test track, not expecting much...I was wrong....lid was off, sound stage wide and detailed. Something this tube had never hinted at being able to do. Well, if that tube could do that, the 5998 was bound to melt my ears. NOT TO BE :( Poles have flipped, now the 5998 was flat and narrow.It was night and day to what it was. The up side is that I've now put in the Philips tube and am currently picking up my jaw from the floor. It's got everything the 5998 had and more. Mixed emotions at the moment, got a $220 tube that'll sit on the sideline for now, but got two $22 "super tubes". I'm going to put back the stock caps and put a switch in to swap between the them, although i'm confident the axon/6as7 combination is my preferred.
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When you put new caps in the signal path, I would run the amp for a few hundred hours before altering any other parameters/making additional judgements.
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Hello,
I have had my Crack w/speedball for awhile (+year) and have nine amps of all sorts, SS, Tube, DIY etc..
The Crack has always worked well with T1 and T90's here for me.
I did two things in the recent week that has me wondering how much better than this can it get with the cans I have and
the way my Crack is set up.
The Crack is stock parts, only speedball update.
I have a few 6AS7G RCA coke bottle style tubes and several 112AU7's
For the last several months I used the RCA 6AS7G with a Bugle Boy, AMperex 12AU7, my standard.
Well the other day I decided to stick in another set and had a Slyvania 6080WB and a Mil Spec JAN 5963 tube dated 3-71.
I am floored once again on how this tube set is working for me.....for each day since I changed these over I have spent 2 sessions for a few hours each day listening...and thinking after the first listening session this "new" sound will wear off and become well....ho-hum or the same...
Well after 5 days now its still OMG good, holographic and 3d...great recordings are indeed great and each and every tune I play
you can discern and "hear" inside the recording...
Jut wanted to share this lesser known or used tube? The Slyvania can be had for a low cost on ebay etc...the 5963's I found there as well a few years back bought a bunch of them for the "cheap" all test great on my tube tester.
Enjoy
Alex
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When you put new caps in the signal path, I would run the amp for a few hundred hours before altering any other parameters/making additional judgements.
Why it took so long for caps to settle? Thx.
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I'm not sure that there's any agreement as to what's going on with cap break in, this is just a part of the collective experience of the hobby.
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I wanted to get for a Mullard for my Crack, so I went to eBay and searched for Mullard 12AU7.
But which one!? There are a million different “Mullards†it seems.
Long Plates.
Grey Plates.
Black Plates.
Clear Tops.
Reissue.
Help cheapskate out!
-not that I need new tubes, I just want a small selection of replacements for posterity.
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You can eliminate two from your list. Mullard never made clear tops & the re-issues are Russian not genuine Mullard.
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I wanted to get for a Mullard for my Crack, so I went to eBay and searched for Mullard 12AU7.
But which one!? There are a million different “Mullards†it seems.
Long Plates.
Grey Plates.
Black Plates.
Clear Tops.
Reissue.
Help cheapskate out!
-not that I need new tubes, I just want a small selection of replacements for posterity.
You are probably looking for the mullard 12au7 box plate (CV4003) its probably the best of the bunch without getting into silly money. Do a bit of googling on it.
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Help cheapskate out!
As a fellow cheapskate, you can find a lot of tubes with printing on them that's pretty generic, but that are genuine Mullard tubes. This is the kind of auction I'd look for:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-WEBCOR-IEC-MULLARD-BRITAIN-12AU7A-ECC82-VTG-Vacuum-Tube-RADIO-GUARANTEED/263488316290?hash=item3d5920a382:g:pn4AAOSwogpaXkHV
The one with the red printing looks to be American, but the other two are certainly Mullards.
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As a fellow cheap skate finding premium tubes on ebay at low/reasonable prices due to slightly strange listing headers was always a buzz when I was running my Crack.
I spotted this listing today that might be of interest.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-6080-valves-tubes-1-GEC-1-GE-avo-tested-Free-worldwide-ship/232669681200?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
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As a fellow cheapskate...
The one with the red printing looks to be American, but the other two are certainly Mullards.
As a fellow cheap skate...
Cheapskates unite!
I assume it takes half a lifetime's worth of experience to tell one type of tube from another like that, Paul.
But are there some pointers you can share or online sources you can recommend that can teach an absolute neophyte like me how to tell what's what?
You are probably looking for the mullard 12au7 box plate (CV4003)
I'll give those a look, thanks!
You can eliminate two from your list.
Good!
I've mostly heard Reissued tubes muttered in the same breath as Sauron and Voldemort, so I tend to give those a long look down the nose.
Though this snobishnes has not been earned through experience, just reading forum posts, I'm worse than a hipster! ::)
Are all reissues shit?
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I don't know if this is strictly adherent to the rules of this thread, but I'm dying to tell someone and I didn't know where else to post this.
So I built by Crack over the weekend.
Such a fun project! (apart from mouting that god damned transformer and those sodding 6-lug terminals!)
And I just have to share my first experience with tube rolling!
Anyway, I'd already ordered a set of Clear Tops and a set of 6H13Cs (Svetlana, I think), and my Crack came with a Clear Top and a 6080 Philips tube.
I'm aware tubes and components need a substantial burn-in period before you get their best performance, but I could stop myself from switching between the 6080 and 6H13C.
And today at the office I was first listening with the 6H13C (I just really like the massive bottle look of these!) but after a while I started finding the high notes (symbals and such) a little too sharp.
So I swapped in the 6080 and the sharp edges were gone!
Of course you men-of-the-world know this, but for a simpleton like me this excited me greatly!
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I assume it takes half a lifetime's worth of experience to tell one type of tube from another like that
The seams in the top glass can tell you a fair bit about where the tube may be from (and isn't from for that matter).
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Cheapskates unite!
I assume it takes half a lifetime's worth of experience to tell one type of tube from another like that, Paul.
http://www.tubemaze.info/deciphering-european-tube-date-codes/
But are there some pointers you can share or online sources you can recommend that can teach an absolute neophyte like me how to tell what's what?
I'll give those a look, thanks!
Good!
I've mostly heard Reissued tubes muttered in the same breath as Sauron and Voldemort, so I tend to give those a long look down the nose.
Though this snobishnes has not been earned through experience, just reading forum posts, I'm worse than a hipster! ::)
Are all reissues shit?
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It's the same as wine. The tube you like the sound of is a good one. The tube you don't like the sound of is a bad one. Take every opinion with a grain of salt and attempt to hear the tube for yourself, in the gear you want to use it in. If you are stressed that you are going to be paying too much for a tube because you may not like it, that is not a good tube for you. If you can afford to buy a tube even if it may not float your boat, it is worth trying.
People spend so much time fiddle farting around with "reviews" and "rolling" because it is easy. That does not mean it is the most influential thing on the sound. If people spent as much time on room treatment as they do rolling ebay tubes there would be a lot more listenable audio systems in the world.
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That link was great, attmci, thanks!
It's the same as wine.
"Tubes and Wine", I smell a new subforum in the making!
If you are stressed that you are going to be paying too much for a tube because you may not like it, that is not a good tube for you.
If you can afford to buy a tube even if it may not float your boat, it is worth trying.
Advice to live by, Doc, thanks!
The seams in the top glass can tell you a fair bit about where the tube may be from (and isn't from for that matter).
I'll make a note of that.
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Hi. In general, is there any way to characterize the benefits of changing the input tube vs the driver tube? Does one tube affect the sound more than the other tube?
Update: Found this on page 4:
The general rule of thumb (IMO) is that the more gain, the more influence.
Since the 6080 is wired for unity gain, the 12AU7 should have a vastly greater influence on the sound, though there are some special 6080 variants that may suggest otherwise.
so there's my answer.
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I was out of a Dac for the past three weeks, a dac i had for several months started acting wierd, sent back twice to get the issues resolved..and now with it back home and working very well...the Crack
with the T1's is soinding soooooo good...yeah most of crack owners with high impedance cans really understand this, but everyonce and awhile we like to share how great this little amp is.....and with HD800's amd T90's
T1's etc...its really well defined marraige.....
Finally stopped chasing nirvana and just enjoy the music and all those cds ripped that I havent listened to...they all sound like "new"!
Alex
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I have a tung sol 5998 that has a hole at the end of the plastic center key. The tube sounds fine, except for an occasional quiet sound like someone is sanding wood. When playing music I can't hear the sanding sound. I have another 5998 that has a broken center key. I bought it like that knowing that part was broken. It is very holographic but sounds OK. I got both a while back for a very fair price. None of my other tubes in my small collection have a hole on the bottom.
Is it common for some tubes to be open on the bottom? Doesn't the term vacuum tubes mean they're vacuum sealed?
Does it affect the sound?
Should I attempt to repair it?
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I have a tung sol 5998 that has a hole at the end of the plastic center key. The tube sounds fine, except for an occasional quiet sound like someone is sanding wood. When playing music I can't hear the sanding sound. I have another 5998 that has a broken center key. I bought it like that knowing that part was broken. It is very holographic but sounds OK. I got both a while back for a very fair price. None of my other tubes in my small collection have a hole on the bottom.
Is it common for some tubes to be open on the bottom? Doesn't the term vacuum tubes mean they're vacuum sealed?
Does it affect the sound?
Should I attempt to repair it?
The hole in the bottom of the intact guide key isn't an issue...that's just the plastic base.
If you want to repair the one with the broken guide key, you can use these: https://www.ebay.com/itm/6-Pcs-Vacuum-Tube-Octal-Socket-Saver-Missing-Broken-Guide-Key-Fix-Repair-Keyway/152149115670?hash=item236ccb4316:g:QtIAAOSwacdZbjxB
-Mark in St. Louis
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I appreciate very much the list that I have quoted below from Dr. Toobz. It has been quite helpful in my search for tubes for the Bottlehead Crack without speedball. I do have the speedball upgrade but after reading that some have had problems when installing speedball, I decided to wait. Thanks again, Dr. Toobz :)
At the suggestion of Grainger49, let's compile a list of tubes that can be rolled in the Crack. I'll update this list periodically as more tubes are tested, and have separated the list into drop-in replacements vs. tubes that might need the heaters rewired or some other modification. Please PM me with any additions or corrections! Maybe we can eventually make this thread a sticky? (Last updated: 05/22/2010).
DROP-IN EQUIVALENTS
Input Tubes (Original: 12AU7)
12AU7(A)(WA)
ECC186
ECC82
ECC802(S)
E8025
E82CC
CV4003
CV4122
CV491
5814(A)
6189(W)(WA)
6680 (WL6680)
6067
7489
7316
5963 (computer version of 12AU7)
Sort-of-Drop-In (but not equivalent - for best results, replace plate resistors with Speedball boards)
E80CC
12BH7
Power/Output (Original: 6080)
6AS7G
6080
6H13C
5998
7236
6N13
SUBSTITUTIONS (circuit changes required)
n/a
FWIW, tube rolling can indeed make a difference in your Crack. I've had the chance to try out another power tube - a Russian 6H13C (6AS7). The amp sounds a bit warmer now, with a bigger soundstage, plenty of bass, and maybe a hair less vivid treble. A good investment at about $20 - I bought mine online from the TubeStore. This definitely sounds a little sweeter and more "tubey" than the 6080 in there before. YMMV, of course.
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Equipment:
Amp - Bottlehead Crack - No speedball
Tubes - RCA 6F8G with adaptor and the Genalex Gold Lion B-749
Source Unit - Oppo 205
Headphones - Sennheiser HD800 with upgrade to S cable
I know that everyone has their favorite tube combination and I am no different than anyone else. I started out a couple of years ago with economical headphones with no amp. I bought a less expensive headphone amp with two small tubes. I could not believe the difference that the amp made. I worked my way into a Darkvoice 336 and thought I had arrived. This amp also started me into the tube acquisition and rolling phase. I ended up with about 50 tubes. It can become an obsession. I buy fewer tubes these days but I still roll them. In the meantime I have purchased a kit from Bottlehead w/speedball. The kit is together and working extremely well - I have not added the speedball. I read that someone had trouble after installing speedball and I decided to leave well enough alone.
Please excuse the long post as I am just now getting to the meat of this message. I have found by far that my favorite tube combination is the RCA 6F8G Vintage Vacuum Audio Tube Smoked Glass Bottom Getter NOS and the Genalex Gold Lion B-749. I do not need to strain and analyze with these tubes. I can immediately tell what I am listening too. The spaciousness of the sound-stage and the dimensionality of the instruments is immediately apparent. If you decide to give the 6F8G a try, please remember that it requires an adapter. (readily available on eBay)
Please note the Attachment photo of the 6F8G
Thanks to everyone for the helpful information that comes from this Site
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There’s no need to be anxious about the Speedball.
If building the Crack went smoothly, you should have no problem following the manual for the Speedball. The manual is up to the Bottlehead standard; idiot proof in other words.
I certainly don’t think you have to worry about the quality of the components bought from Bottlehead.
Besides, the posts about problems after installing the Speedball are from a minority of customers, few customers post about how their Crack is working just fine but everyone who has problems will post about it to get help.
-as they should, the Bottleheads are super helpful and want you to succeed with their product.
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Thanks very much for your encouraging email and your assurance that help is available. I will go forward with the speedball. Thanks again
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The manual has very good explanations and illustrations.
If you have never soldered on a circuit board before, it might be a good idea to prepare by looking at a few videos on YouTube: https://youtube.com/results?q=pcb%20through%20hole%20soldering&sm=3
It might also be a good idea to take some care when removing the resistors from the Crack before installing the Speedball.
That way you can keep them and put them back in if you don’t like the sound of the Speedball.
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Thanks very much. It would not have been something I would have thought of.
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The right channel on my Tung-Sol 6080 I bought the other day from Etsy is practically deaf, with the two LEDS on my speedball closest to the transformer not lighting up. Is this a defective tube? Do I need to modify the crack in any way?
I noticed if I crank the volume on the crack all the way, I get a little bit of sound with the left being obscenely loud. Not ideal. Can anyone help me diagnose this?
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I just picked up a Tung-Sol 6AS7G untested for dirt cheap (I know, you typically get what you pay for, but for $10 I figured what the heck). The tube appears brand new, came in original box has Tung-Sol logo and date code on the base, but...
I get an arc inside the tube (with a pop) when powering up. I can't say that any of my tubes have ever done that. Problem?
It sounds great otherwise. Both channels are strong and clear (more volume than my NOS Winged C), but right now I'm afraid to use it.
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Let it run overnight and see if that resolves the issue. Arcing can sometimes be gas in the tube, and getting it nice and hot for a long period of time can resolve the issue.
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The sad reality these days is that a lot of "untested" tubes have been tested. They just failed the test. Caveat emptor.
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The sad reality these days is that a lot of "untested" tubes have been tested. They just failed the test. Caveat emptor.
But have they been double tested?
-or tripple tested even?
It is the only way to be sure. ;D
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Caveat emptor /ËŒkævɛɑËt ˈɛmptÉ”Ër/ is Latin for "Let the buyer beware"
Looked it up. Today I learned.
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Could anyone help me with a determination if the 6C5G can be used as a direct replacement for the 6080 in the Crack. Thanks in advance, JS
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Not even close.
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Thanks for the quick answer. It is great to have this resource.
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Could anyone help me with a determination if the 6C5G can be used as a direct replacement for the 6080 in the Crack. Thanks in advance, JS
A pair of them would probably work in place of the 12AU7, but it would take a really unusual adapter or a much larger chassis plate.
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Loving my Crack! Aptly named too as you've definitely gotten me hooked on the sound and the hobby. Speedball ordered. Using HD600s and an Apogee Groove DAC.
Regarding rolling, would it be appropriate to add "M8136" and "VX8136C" to the list of 12au7-equivalent tube types? I believe these are additional British designations (if not identical to?) "CV4003". Stumbled across these while researching the codes of a Mullard I bought (full code is 631 R4I3, FWIW).
My kit came with a nice RCA 12au7 and I've also tried a modern Electro-Harmonix (which sounds better than I was expecting for the price and provenance). Can't say I loved the winged C/SED/Svetlana 6H13C I got as a backup for the JAN Philips 6080WC that came with my kit. It sounds loose or rough to me, YMMV.
Thanks again for the kit and the community,
rabele
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Have really enjoyed my Crack+Speedball for some time mostly with Tung-Sol 6520 and NOS Mullard 12AU7. After reading so many posts about 6SN7s and adapters, I couldn't help myself. Got the Garage adaptor and picked up a 1951 National Union Blackglass from Brent Jesse. Really enjoying the combo. With my HD650s audio seems "rounded" and musical with plenty of detail and definition. The adaptor seems well made and certainly doesn't distract from the appearance of the Crack.
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Let it run overnight and see if that resolves the issue. Arcing can sometimes be gas in the tube, and getting it nice and hot for a long period of time can resolve the issue.
Just dropping a note... I let it play music for about 8 hrs a few days ago and the problem seems solved. Hasn't arc'd at all since then. I have it paired with either a Mullard CV4003 or CBS 5814A (until I figure out which I like better).
Thanks for the suggestion!
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I recently received this tube in the mail. It’s a Chatham 5998, and "650" with the letter J is printed on the base. It has a clear top. The description stated that it has "triple mica, black plates and twin bottom D getters.â€
Are bottom or top getters better? Or does it make a difference? It sounds great. Just curious about some details. Also would like to know what year this tube was made in.
There’s so many variations of the Tung Sol and Chatham versions of this tube. I’ve searched through this and other threads to learn about these tubes. I’ve read the 116 pages in this thread.
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A pair of them would probably work in place of the 12AU7, but it would take a really unusual adapter or a much larger chassis plate.
Thanks very much for your helpful reply, JS
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Are bottom or top getters better? Or does it make a difference?
The getter is just a little piece of metal that holds the barium as the tube is assembled. The barium is drawn off the getter and onto the glass near the end of the manufacturing process, and after that the metal shape referred to as the getter serves no purpose!
The getter shape and position is brought up mostly as an identifying mark.
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I recently received this tube in the mail. It’s a Chatham 5998, and "650" with the letter J is printed on the base. It has a clear top. The description stated that it has "triple mica, black plates and twin bottom D getters.â€
Are bottom or top getters better? Or does it make a difference? It sounds great. Just curious about some details. Also would like to know what year this tube was made in.
There’s so many variations of the Tung Sol and Chatham versions of this tube. I’ve searched through this and other threads to learn about these tubes. I’ve read the 116 pages in this thread.
Nice clear top bottom getter 5998 close to WE421.
50th week of 1956. I could be wrong.
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I recently received this tube in the mail. It’s a Chatham 5998, and "650" with the letter J is printed on the base. It has a clear top. The description stated that it has "triple mica, black plates and twin bottom D getters.â€
Are bottom or top getters better? Or does it make a difference? It sounds great. Just curious about some details. Also would like to know what year this tube was made in.
There’s so many variations of the Tung Sol and Chatham versions of this tube. I’ve searched through this and other threads to learn about these tubes. I’ve read the 116 pages in this thread.
These early 1950's clear top 5998's are nice sounding tubes, I prefer them to the later 5998 and WE421a variants.
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After a year without use i got my Crack back in working condition.
And for once i did a count of the tubes and with over 150 12au7's and many others i'm, once again, in for a long journey discovering the sound of different tubes.
But my love for Crack is mostly in the modding options for running all sorts of tubes.
I found a few ECC32's (1950's Mullard brown bases) and i'll try using Crack with those soon.
Any experiences with these? I think it should work in a standard speedball crack with R1 resistance for E80CC and the normal 1.5V bias? I also have the bias for 5687 build in to switch to?
Edit, now enjoying Bendix slotte graphite 6080 with Brimar CV491 red labeled(1950's).
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The ECC32 is a 6SN7 and should work with the stock Speedball.
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That's the thing. It's not a 6SN7 equivalent. It might be close. But still different.
Please note the electrical comparison on the following website: https://www.tubeworld.com/ecc32ecc33.htm
Tube data: http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aad0139.htm
But my guess is that it indeed will work! :)
Might try tonight.
i'll measure 1 and 5 to see what the voltage is there (lets hope it comes in around 75V plate voltage).
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Please note the electrical comparison on the following website: https://www.tubeworld.com/ecc32ecc33.htm
The mu values on that table are way, way off!
The ECC32 does have slightly higher mu, higher Rp, and lower Gm, but the curves are pretty close.
i'll measure 1 and 5 to see what the voltage is there (lets hope it comes in around 75V plate voltage).
It should be pretty close. You may see more like 85V.
From a comparison standpoint, the Crack is already a bit heavy on the gain, so adding more isn't generally helpful to the amp (though no harm in trying).
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My typical 6SN7's measure 80-85V +-.
The ECC32 measures in at 115V+-
With R1 switched to double the resistance it's 80-85V.
Oh and the sound is good. It's better than my Brimar 6SN7GT (closest thing i have), 6N8S metal plate Melz, various VT-231's.
I'm a fan of these.
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I have it on good authority that Santa is bringing me a pair of Beyer T1s to go along with my crack w/speedball. Currently using stock tubes, considering trying something else. Are there any in particular that work well with the T1?
Took me a while but I ended up with a Mullard CV4003 and IBM-branded 5998 at not-insane prices (relatively-speaking). The 5998 was a bit of a gamble, but no microphonics or noise issues, and it sounds great. I got the CV4003 first, so had a decent amount of time with that plus the stock 6080 before the 5998 went in.
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The ECC32 measures in at 115V+-
I just pasted the curves into paint and you're correct. Setting the plate current for 2mA should be about right.
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I have used several 6F8G tubes in the Crack with great success - especially the Tung-Sol. What a great sounding tube. In addition to the sound, the 6f8g runs quite cool. It hardly makes the plate warm while the 6080 makes the plate quite hot. I recommend adding this tube to the collection although it requires and adapter.
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I have the same experience with these tubes.
More lush, spacious than your average 6SN7 tube.
IME they do tend to be a bit microphonic from time to time.
The VT-99 is indeed a great tube. I use them with square plate and round plate versions with the black glass.
Both are great. The round plate is supposed to be a bit better, but i can't hear that.
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I have 8 or 10 of these tubes and have only had trouble with one of them. It causes substantial pops and cracks especially in the left channel. As good as these tubes sound I do not know why I listen to other tubes. Cool running is also a real plus. I wonder if this tube will be added to the crack list. Wishing you good listening, JS
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I wonder if this perhaps should go in the General Discussions subforum?
I'll risk it here and let the mods move it if I messed up.
I been tried out two types of 6SN7 valves in my Crack recently with an adapter (I'll be vague and say the adapter comes from a Bottlehead competitor, don't want to tread on any toes here).
But I'm so far most displeased with their performance.
They seem to be excellent antennaes for interference from pretty much everything in my office.
I keep my Crack pretty close to my computer and monitors, but the 12AU7 valves hardly pick up any interference.
-some slight high pitched whining if I move it around, but pretty much dead quiet.
Not so with the 6SN7s.
I've tried two USSR brown base 6SN7s and one RCA "smoky" valve, all are unbearably noisy.
-the RCA is busted anyway; loud popping when I wriggle the tube.
I thought maybe it was the adapter since it's kind of exposed, but I tried covering it in Sugru (not sure if that helps in the slightest though) and it made no difference.
Clamping my hands around the valves removes the noise, but I find it a little impractical in the long run.
Anyone else have the same experience?
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This is pretty typical of many of the adapters sold online.
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Seems like it from what I’ve read yes.
Bah, I can’t even tell the difference between different 12AU7s or 6080s.
Whatever difference I’ve thought I’d heard, turned out to be my imagination.
Im confident Bottlehead used the 12AU7 for a reason.
I’ll file the 6SN7 experiment under P for Pointless.
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The driver tube in the Crack ultimately works best when it has the lowest possible gain, as well as being able to operate fairly well without a ton of voltage. The 12AU7 is just more available than the 6SN7, doesn't take up as much space on the chassis, and can't be plugged into the 6080 by accident.
The 6CG7 is a 9 pin 6SN7, and a minor change to the 9 pin socket wiring would allow its use (and the 7AU7 would then also work instead of the 12AU7).
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The 6CG7 is a 9 pin 6SN7, and a minor change to the 9 pin socket wiring would allow its use (and the 7AU7 would then also work instead of the 12AU7).
And the 6AU7 also. ;)
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Might be a neat idea for some day down the line.
Maybe if I actually start noticing any difference between 12AU7s, I'll start wondering how other tubes might sound as well.
Right now I can't tell any of my three available 12AU7s apart (Mullard, Clear Top, Genalex Gold Lion).
So I'm going to give rewiring the socket a hard pass, I think.
I've read a couple of posts praising the soundstage of the 6SN7s so I figured an adapter might be an easy way to try them out for myself.
Some of you are pretty well versed in tube land, and this is all very subjective and dependent on the amp:
Would some of you say there are big, relatively speaking, differences in the sound between 12AU7, 6AU7, 7AU7 and 6CG7 tubes?
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I you're looking for soundstage there's other nice additions to roll in a Crack.
With the pad in place in a Speedballed Crack there's a few cheaper options for great sound.
One to think of is the 6C8G tube. A NU or Tung Sol can be found for cheap. These are 6F8G's on the cheap essentially.
I prefer them to most 6SN7's. It's personal. Like with all tubes and "mods" to Crack, it's like different trying spicing for the same meal. Don't expect a world of difference when trying different tubes.
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Oh boy those 6F8G tubes look cool.
I wonder if those eBay 6F8G to 12AU7 adapters are any good?
My gut says...nooo.
Maybe it would be cool to put an octal socket in place of the noval socket, but I don't have a Dremel so nah.
Besides I don't want to mess with the Speedball standoffs :P
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Pick yourself up a step drill from ebay to enlarge the hole they are only a couple of dollars it will cut through the alloy top plate in seconds.
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Anyone tried double 6j5's for Crack vs ECC82?
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A pair of 6J5s will sound nearly identical to a single 6SN7. I even have a few 6J5s that are 6SN7s with one of the triodes not connected to any pins.
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Thank you! I've to admit i'm just rolling trough tubes for the fun of doing so.
On my "just to try" list for my Crack:
Triodes: 6C4, 6J5 etc.
Other dual triodes: 6463/6350 (bias for 5687/7119/e182cc).
Other sockets: 7N7, 7AF7
Now using a 1951, april, Valvo Hamburg ECC40, with Westinghouse 6as7GA with dynamic/musical (and a bit dark) results.
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are the tubes on the first page the only ones that can be interchanged or is there a full list somewhere?
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are the tubes on the first page the only ones that can be interchanged
Yes.
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Hi everyone,
Just wanted to say, I'm new here and I thoroughly appreciate everyone's civility and helpfulness so far. Very much a nice reprieve from places like r/headphones...
That aside, I'm a new crack owner and even though I'm still in the very early stages of building, I'm looking to secure some Power tubes to experiment with after I get some time in on the stock tubes and subsequently the Speedball.
I'd really love to find a Tung-Sol (/Chatham) 6080 and/or 6AS7G but it seems as the years have gone by, these guys are getting harder to find and therefore more expensive :/ there is zero value to be found on eBay, (tried with bangybang, wants 80 for a pair) and most online tube stores I've inquired with simply don't stock them. I was wondering if any members had one or both types on hand lying around not being used and would be willing to part with? Obviously not for free, but I also hate paying more than I need to for something...I am an obsessive bargain hunter :)
Edit: I'm dumb. My kit definitely came with a Svetlana (SED?) Winged "C" 6H13C which is freaking awesome because I was actually going to pick one up because they are cheap and easily available. So score one to Bottlehead for sending these out! It looks just like the one pictured here: https://www.thetubestore.com/winged-c-6h13c-6as7g and here: http://i.imgur.com/c1JoQxU.jpg http://i.imgur.com/Pz88U52.jpg
Thanks!
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Hey bud - so here is an option for ya: Chatham 6520. The 6520 is a "premium" 6AS7G only made by Tung Sol, my understanding is that Tung Sol took over Chatham and began manufacturing many of their tubes, including their 6AS7's (also the 2399, which is a 5998 equivalent). So, that is essentially a premium-made Tung Sol 6AS7G. I was going to pick this up myself, but I have enough power tubes, I don't need another.
https://www.etsy.com/listing/614950379/chatham-6520-vacuum-tube-copper-support?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=chatham%206520&ref=sr_gallery-1-1
Here is a tube-knowledgable Head-Fier discussing the Chatham acquisition by Tung Sol:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/page-261#post-13726099
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From my experience with 6080's and 6AS7G (A) tubes. The 6H13C Bottlehead shipped you with their kit is probably the best value for money found for the power tube. I prefer 6H5C and 6H13C over most 6as7g (a) tubes.
Only upgrades are Tung Sol 5998 (and others 2399, 7236, 6520) Bendix graphite plate 6080's (and 7802) and GEC 6080/6as7g (CV2523/A1834), and the premium paid for those is better spend on other "mods" for the Crack. But if you can find one for the right price (as in, cheap), these are worth it.
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Hey bud - so here is an option for ya: Chatham 6520. The 6520 is a "premium" 6AS7G only made by Tung Sol, my understanding is that Tung Sol took over Chatham and began manufacturing many of their tubes, including their 6AS7's (also the 2399, which is a 5998 equivalent). So, that is essentially a premium-made Tung Sol 6AS7G. I was going to pick this up myself, but I have enough power tubes, I don't need another.
https://www.etsy.com/listing/614950379/chatham-6520-vacuum-tube-copper-support?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=chatham%206520&ref=sr_gallery-1-1
Here is a tube-knowledgable Head-Fier discussing the Chatham acquisition by Tung Sol:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/page-261#post-13726099
WOW! See? Exactly what I'm talking about! I have rarely come across such generosity on the internet! Thanks a ton L0rdGwyn! Unfortunately I posted this and fell asleep so it looks like someone else already beat me to the punch LOL. Sucks because that would've been right up my alley. Again, thanks a lot!
I am currently checking stock with another tube dealer that seems to actually have stock at decent prices, although I'm not expecting much... probably too good to be true...
This post is what got me started and the info you were sharing about Tung-Sol/Chatham and the different models definitely lines up! https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/bottlehead-crack.120/page-3 scroll down a but for 6AS7G.
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Bangy Bang Tubes does not have a particularly savory reputation, I'd suggest doing some research before spending any money there.
Although these are labeled as "Stromberg Carlson", they are Tung Sol 6080s.
Tung Sol 6080s (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Set-of-Three-Stromberg-Carlson-6080-NOS-Vacuum-Tubes-NIB/263767506588?hash=item3d69c4be9c:g:PWYAAOSwYK1bHswa)
This has one Tung Sol and one GE:
Tung Sol & GE (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-of-Stromberg-Carlson-6080-NOS-Vacuum-Tubes-NIB/263767506736?hash=item3d69c4bf30:g:5KcAAOSw9N5bHsvh)
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Thank you sir. Appreciate the low down and the links!
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How can you tell that one of those is a GE in the second listing?
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Factory code 188 corresponds with GE (on the right tube).
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Oh I see. Thanks!
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GE tubes often times also have acid etched dots on the glass.
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Gotcha! Good to know for future reference. So I picked up the 3 from your link. Hopefully 1/3 is in good shape! Seemed too good to pass up. I also JUST managed to get a Tung-Sol 6AS7G from vacuumtubes.net Super exciting!! Thanks for the assistance everyone, I'm ready to roll!! :P
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I also JUST managed to get a Tung-Sol 6AS7G from vacuumtubes.net
He is a very good vendor.
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:D yeah I really enjoyed talking to him. Super knowledgeable and would definitely do business with again. Very nice guy!
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:D yeah I really enjoyed talking to him. Super knowledgeable and would definitely do business with again. Very nice guy!
Let's know which do you prefer. The Winged "C" or GE 6080. :)
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WOW! See? Exactly what I'm talking about! I have rarely come across such generosity on the internet! Thanks a ton L0rdGwyn! Unfortunately I posted this and fell asleep so it looks like someone else already beat me to the punch LOL. Sucks because that would've been right up my alley. Again, thanks a lot!
I am currently checking stock with another tube dealer that seems to actually have stock at decent prices, although I'm not expecting much... probably too good to be true...
This post is what got me started and the info you were sharing about Tung-Sol/Chatham and the different models definitely lines up! https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/bottlehead-crack.120/page-3 scroll down a but for 6AS7G.
No problem, sorry you didn't get to it in time, shame on whoever did! Glad you got your hands on a TS 6080. Never knew those Stromberg-Carlson's were manufactured by TS, I've been interested in getting one, I'll have to keep an eye out myself :)
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Thanks again! The 3 Stromberg Carlson 6080s from eBay arrived the other day. I'm going to contact a local dealer that has the equipment to test tubes here in Raleigh. Going to make sure they are in good shape. They definitely look NOS and unused but I bought them untested so I want to be sure. I'll probably see if he wants to buy 2 of 3 off me if they test well since he could easily sell them as a pair on his eBay store. I could totally hold on to one for you if you want! They are hard to come by at a decent price :\ I don't want much for them since I got such a good deal on them! Just let me know. The Chatham 6AS7G arrived from vacuumtubes.net the other day too! So between those and my stock winged "c", I'm all rounded out! Thanks again everyone for the help.
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You don't need to find anyone with a tube tester. Plug them in your Crack and measure the voltages. If they are good, the tube is good.
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Got it Doc! That's good to know. My only reasoning was it may be a bit before I get everything wired up so it will be quicker for me to run by his shop. Plus it would give me a good excuse to chat and peddle the extra tubes to make some money back :D
I just finished getting paint, stain, polyurethane, sand paper, etc etc for the base and aluminum plate. I'm foaming at the mouth here LOL. Now if only I could squeeze a few extra hours out of the day...
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This configuration is a bit unwieldy, but the sound to my ears is as good as I have ever heard. While it takes two adapters to work the results is well worth the effort. The Tung-Sol 6F8G/6C8G is the best and it works well with the Crack and Speedball. I have tried other brands of the tube that do no coexist well with the Speedball. However, I also have a Crack without the Speedball and the tube sounded great without the Speedball. Go figure. It would take better minds than mine to figure that out. The 6F8G and 6C8G are still relatively inexpensive, however, they seem to increase in price every day.
Good Listening
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Hello folks,
A couple of quick questions for you...or maybe not so quick:
1. If I'm going to mess around with tube rolling for my Crack (with Speedball), would the 12AU7 be a higher priority than the 6080?
2. What's the deal with "vintage" tubes? Is a tube from the 1950s or '60s likely to sound different than a new tube, and if so is that because of difference in manufacturing, or difference that occur with age? I kinda like the idea of a tube made in the same year I was born (mid-'60s)...
3. On eBay plenty of sellers note test values for tubes. What exactly are those and how should I think about them?
4. Are there any brands of tubes out there for which there is a consensus (something which seems generally to be absent in almost every part of the fascinating discussions on these topics) that they are either A) among the best and should be sought out or B) to be avoided? Related: Are there particular countries of tube manufacture that are thought to be uniformly superior or inferior as far as tube quality? (For example, I've seen plenty of positive mention of Tung Sol.)
5. I see that some substitutes for the 12AU7 are tubes that are "military spec", which seem particularly to be designed to handle frequent power on/off cycles and maybe have some other tighter tolerances. I like that idea, because I do tend to turn the Crack on and off at least once most days of the week. But is that "mil spec" really something worth seeking out?
6. I realize this is a "Coke vs Pepsi vs RC" question, meaning there isn't a "right answer" but what's YOUR favorite replacement for a 12AU7 in a Crack and why? (Feel free to answer for the 6080 as well!)
Thanks in advance for your insights and advice!
Ross in Colorado
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1. I would remove the 6080 and replace it with a good 5998 or 6SN7g tube. Perhaps a Tung-sol or even a RCA.
2. There are good old tubes (NOS = New Old Stock and JAN = Joint Army Navy) and good new tubes. Most people tend to prefer the older tubes if they test well.
3. The test value depends on the scale, brand and quality of the tester. You would need to know the GOOD/BAD parameters before making a decision based on the tube results alone.
4. Except for super exotic tubes, the Tung-sol seems to be at the top of the heap.
5. I would place the brand and the condition of the tube before seeking out a mil-spec tube.
6. By far my favorite 12au7 replacement is the 6F8G or the 6C8G. You will need an adapter for both found on eBay. (see my post about these tubes above)
Hope this is helpful, JS
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1. I would remove the 6080 and replace it with a good 5998 or 6SN7g tube.
We have mentioned elsewhere on this forum that plugging a 6SN7 in place of the 6080 will destroy the 6SN7 and perhaps even the amp.
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thanks CB/PB. If I were only going to roll one tube to start, would you recommend it being the 12AU7 or the 6080?
Also what do you think of the suggestions re subs for 12AU7 that involve using an adapter because the other tube has a different number of pins? (And what does the adapter wire connect to?)
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Hey Ross,
Here's where I got a great basis for power tubes at least.
https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/bottlehead-crack.120/page-3
It's older and prices are not US but still very helpful.
Also, check this out from this forum:
https://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=663.msg30393#msg30393
Bottom post.
I have found most of the answers to your questions in some form or another through research on Google. But then again, I'm obsessive and may be more persistent about reading up on this stuff than most people ;)
For the preamp tube, check out new production Genalex Gold Lion 12UA7. They seem to be pretty popular. Any decent vintage preamp tube I've seen like the Mullard CV4003 https://www.upscaleaudio.com/products/mullard-cv4003-12au7-vintage-new-old-stock usually costs about $80 - $100 and up and just isn't worth it to me. I wouldn't spend more than $50 on a tube personally and that's a stretch.
Hope this helps.
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Thanks much! I'm thinking about this: http://www.tubemonger.com/La_Radiotechnique_12AU7_NOS_NIB_FranceECC82_MIL65L_p/1215.htm
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Sorry. I meant 6SA7. Bad mistake, js
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Sorry. I meant 6AS7. I am too old to be giving advice from memory. Bad mistake, js
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Ross,
Forgot to mention, scroll through that first link for 6AS7G and 12AU7 tubes. Also, you may want to check this out http://www.nostubestore.com/2018/02/brimar-cv4003-12au7-ecc82.html
Upscale has a stock at about $20 more. They're generally more expensive.
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Hello folks,
A couple of quick questions for you...or maybe not so quick:
1. If I'm going to mess around with tube rolling for my Crack (with Speedball), would the 12AU7 be a higher priority than the 6080?
2. What's the deal with "vintage" tubes? Is a tube from the 1950s or '60s likely to sound different than a new tube, and if so is that because of difference in manufacturing, or difference that occur with age? I kinda like the idea of a tube made in the same year I was born (mid-'60s)...
3. On eBay plenty of sellers note test values for tubes. What exactly are those and how should I think about them?
4. Are there any brands of tubes out there for which there is a consensus (something which seems generally to be absent in almost every part of the fascinating discussions on these topics) that they are either A) among the best and should be sought out or B) to be avoided? Related: Are there particular countries of tube manufacture that are thought to be uniformly superior or inferior as far as tube quality? (For example, I've seen plenty of positive mention of Tung Sol.)
5. I see that some substitutes for the 12AU7 are tubes that are "military spec", which seem particularly to be designed to handle frequent power on/off cycles and maybe have some other tighter tolerances. I like that idea, because I do tend to turn the Crack on and off at least once most days of the week. But is that "mil spec" really something worth seeking out?
6. I realize this is a "Coke vs Pepsi vs RC" question, meaning there isn't a "right answer" but what's YOUR favorite replacement for a 12AU7 in a Crack and why? (Feel free to answer for the 6080 as well!)
Thanks in advance for your insights and advice!
Ross in Colorado
I found it's kind of dangerous to ask this kind of questions here instead of reading and investigation by yourself. There are many forums. Just google it.
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I've read dozens...actually probably hundreds...of posts across the web. Didn't think it would hurt to consolidate a few questions in one reply here. Still don't think it's a problem.
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I've rolled 100's of tubes in my Crack. I can only recommend the "Russian combination" for a reasonable price.
6H13C (Svetlana winged C, OTK)old stock for the power tube.
ECC82 Gold Lion new production for the input tube.
On the other end of the spectrum, for just marginal gains over the above mentioned combination (but have heard none better to date), there's the not so reasonably priced/unobtanium "English combination".
A1834 GEC power tube.
ECC32 Mullard input tube.
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Far to many variables in tube rolling for definitive views on tube combinations imho.
Much also depends on the rest of your source and headphones used, Crack upgrades and of course personal tastes. Also worth a mention some of the popular tubes were produced for 20 or so years the formula and components inside may have had several design reconfigurations over that time and as such reviews on a certain tube can be a little misleading as they might be referring to a tube manufactured with a specific date
I would suggest you become familiar with how the Russian 6N13S & 6Ð13С tubes look, these are available new old stock for around $10 they are also widely rebranded and you will see the same $10 tube being offered as fake premium tube for as much as $100 *don't be fooled* the distinctive silver getter marking at the base of the tube is easy to spot.
While the pictures no longer work this is a great resource for Crack tube rollers
http://the-key.enix.org/~krystal/review-tube-bottlehead.html
ps I think using a tube from the year you were born is a neat idea best of luck with your search
.
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Jamie is making some very salient comments here. There are current production and readily available tubes that very good sounding tubes and they don't cost a lot. And a lot of judgments seem to be made based upon a single sample - not particularly scientific.
When I started in this business in the 90s one could buy a Fisher 400 for $75 at a swap meet, pull the Telefunken 12AU7s and run them in a Foreplay. Extra ones I could sell for maybe $15 a piece. Now a good Telefunken 12AU7 costs more than a Foreplay did. And of course the Fisher goes for what, $1000 restored? I get it - I'm old, that was a long time ago, they are supposedly more rare now and everyone wants to make money on their investment (Doc says buy CDs and CD players).
Because I got into this when Teles were $25 and 5998s were $15 I do have those tubes around, along with Tele E88CCs and EF806s for my Eros, Amperex 845s in my Neothoriator, etc. And I run them. I even have a mesh plate 10, a Pliotron, stuff that actually is quite rare and exotic.
However the difference between these tubes and something bang for the buck like a clear top 12AU7 or a Russian 6H32p or a Chinese 845 is not actually something of mythical proportions. If you have the budget and want to try $300 tubes in your $300 amp, go for it. And burn those bitches up. They sound nice and were meant to be used! But if you don't have the budget, don't feel like you're missing something critical to improving your karma or advancing the entire species. Yes, they are nice but probably not as much an improvement as the same money spent on carefully employed room treatment or a better sounding source component than what you currently have.
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the Fisher goes for what, $1000 restored?
I had to up my homeowner's insurance a bit.
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Because FM radio sounds soooo good these days. I was chuckling with my motorcycle buddies about the same thing regarding bikes yesterday. Kind of astounding what a mundane thing like a CT90 goes for these days. I could buy an Aprilia Futura for what some guys are asking.
If anyone is interested my Nagra T is for sale for $28,000 and my Altec 250SU console is available for $40,000. I will sell my Amperex 845s for $6500. And the original S.E.X. kit is available for $1.5 million for the pair. Daddy needs to get to Bonneville.
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Thanks again! The 3 Stromberg Carlson 6080s from eBay arrived the other day. I'm going to contact a local dealer that has the equipment to test tubes here in Raleigh. Going to make sure they are in good shape. They definitely look NOS and unused but I bought them untested so I want to be sure. I'll probably see if he wants to buy 2 of 3 off me if they test well since he could easily sell them as a pair on his eBay store. I could totally hold on to one for you if you want! They are hard to come by at a decent price :\ I don't want much for them since I got such a good deal on them! Just let me know. The Chatham 6AS7G arrived from vacuumtubes.net the other day too! So between those and my stock winged "c", I'm all rounded out! Thanks again everyone for the help.
Hey bud - just saw this post, if they pass your testing and you want to hold onto one for me, I would definitely take it off of your hands :) if it's too much of a hassle, I'll look for your local dealer's Ebay listing. Would shoot you a PM, but I can't seem to figure out how on the BH forums lol am I missing something here guys?
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I've read dozens...actually probably hundreds...of posts across the web. Didn't think it would hurt to consolidate a few questions in one reply here. Still don't think it's a problem.
Well, then you should already know the answers.
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I've rolled 100's of tubes in my Crack. I can only recommend the "Russian combination" for a reasonable price.
6H13C (Svetlana winged C, OTK)old stock for the power tube.
ECC82 Gold Lion new production for the input tube.
On the other end of the spectrum, for just marginal gains over the above mentioned combination (but have heard none better to date), there's the not so reasonably priced/unobtanium "English combination".
A1834 GEC power tube.
ECC32 Mullard input tube.
See, everyone has different options. I will never use these two tubes in my amp.
BTW, Tom's crack had been heavily damaged, I mean modified. LOL
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Hey bud - just saw this post, if they pass your testing and you want to hold onto one for me, I would definitely take it off of your hands :) if it's too much of a hassle, I'll look for your local dealer's Ebay listing. Would shoot you a PM, but I can't seem to figure out how on the BH forums lol am I missing something here guys?
Hey Gywn, I also don't see a PM option. I'm having a hard time getting in touch with VTubeaudio here in Raleigh. He answered my first email when I was looking for some tubes, but that's about it :\ his site says he'll list tubes on his eBay store (surely for a fee) which would be ideal, and in turn they'd be tested. Anyways, I've run across you on Head-fi so I can PM you there. FYI the 6080s look to be in great shape and not used. It will be some time before I can actually try them out in my crack though. Work and family life has taken up most of my time lately. I plan to start my build tomorrow! I can always mail them and accept PayPal, not a trouble at all.
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Click on the user's name, then click on send PM. If the send PM selection doesn't show, the user has opted out of accepting PMs.
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Thanks Doc, I had to go to my account and check allow users to email me.
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Yes my Crack's been heavily damaged. :o ;D
But that's what the kit is all about. For me, the fun is in modding it, playing with it, trying every tube i can.
It's on about 8 hours a day, now mostly used with HD800's.
Currently looking into other Russian tubes: http://klausmobile.narod.ru/testerfiles/6n30p.htm
6n6p and 6h30p, PB/Doc any comments on these, which would be better?
I think both could work in Crack (with speedball).
Closest tube i've used in Crack (with a few corrections) is 5687 and 7119.
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Currently looking into other Russian tubes: http://klausmobile.narod.ru/testerfiles/6n30p.htm
6n6p and 6h30p, PB/Doc any comments on these, which would be better?
The 6H30, in a Crack with Speedball, will develop about 29V on the plate instead of the 80V we'd like to see. 10mA/4.5V of bias would make the 6H30 work. The MJE350 would need to come out and the MJE5731A installed in its place. The R1 resistor would, of course, need to change as well.
The 6H6P will make maybe 40V with the stock Speedball. 4mA of plate current and 3V of bias would get you up and running there.
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Other than the obvious "supply versus demand", can anyone tell me why the Tung Sol 6AS7G tubes can be had for something like 10% or 20% of the price of the 5998, and whether you think the 5998 is worth the higher price? In other words, are the 5998s much better, much rarer, or both?
Also, in the very first post in this excellent thread, I don't see 421A listed as a substitute for 6080. But I do see lots of folks talking about them on the board and selling them as substitutes. Is it a straight-up substitute for the 6080 or would using it require other modifications to my Crack (with Speedball)? Thanks!
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The 5998 is a completely different tube than the 6080, but they work interchangeably in the Crack circuit. They are in demand and quite rare, so prices are high.
The WE 421A is a rebranded Tung Sol 5998, so there aren't any issues there.
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The 5998 is a completely different tube than the 6080, but they work interchangeably in the Crack circuit. They are in demand and quite rare, so prices are high.
The WE 421A is a rebranded Tung Sol 5998, so there aren't any issues there.
PB, I think I remember reading the WE 421A is a similar but distinct tube from the TS 5998. Transconductance is 20,000 and mu of 6.1 compared to the 14,000 and 5.5 of the the 5998. Is it just a rebrand? Regardless, they both work in the Crack :)
http://www.westernelectric.com/static/library/specifications/tubes/5998.pdf
http://www.tubebooks.org/tubedata/5998_TS.PDF
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The "Western Electric" datasheet is named "5998.pdf". The Western Electric datasheet also says "Western Electric 5998" on the first page. The two tubes are identically constructed.
The 5998 lists 120V plate, 125mA, 17,000uMhos, and an amplification factor of 6.2.
The 421A lists 110V plate, 125mA, 20,000uMhos, and an amplifiaction factor of 6.1.
For lower plate voltage and the same current, grid bias will be lower, and that change in operating point will increase transconductance a little.
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The "Western Electric" datasheet is named "5998.pdf". The Western Electric datasheet also says "Western Electric 5998" on the first page. The two tubes are identically constructed.
The 5998 lists 120V plate, 125mA, 17,000uMhos, and an amplification factor of 6.2.
The 421A lists 110V plate, 125mA, 20,000uMhos, and an amplifiaction factor of 6.1.
For lower plate voltage and the same current, grid bias will be lower, and that change in operating point will increase transconductance a little.
Got it, thanks for the insight!
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If I have a power tube that arcs on start up, do I run the risk of damaging my amp? It isn't every time, I've tried "cooking" the tube for probably around 5-6 hours, but still arcs. After it warms up, it sounds great and has no other issues, just don't want to damage anything.
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The 6H30, in a Crack with Speedball, will develop about 29V on the plate instead of the 80V we'd like to see. 10mA/4.5V of bias would make the 6H30 work. The MJE350 would need to come out and the MJE5731A installed in its place. The R1 resistor would, of course, need to change as well.
The 6H6P will make maybe 40V with the stock Speedball. 4mA of plate current and 3V of bias would get you up and running there.
Thanks for the reply. Tried 6H6P first. Running at 2V bias, 150Ohm R1 -> 90V on 1 and 5. Sound ok, small 50Hz hum for now.
Edit: I do have a MJE5731A on my speedball small board.
Edit 2: For anyone interested. The 6N6P is an excellent performer for the Crack. The detail retrieval is up there with the best 12au7's. Is has the holographic extra layer like a Telefunken. The soundstage is not of the best. For me it performs as good as other "supertubes" E80CC/12BH7/7119.
To use it in Crack, it uses same setup as 5687 tubes (blue LED bias, 150Ohm R1), only different pinout.
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I've decided that there are far too many possible tubes one could put in a Crack and I wanted to limit my selection so I've decided to only buy tubes from the year of my birth (mid-1960s). It's surprisingly easy, actually, even for NOS tubes, but at least it puts some guard rails on what could easily be a big money-pit addiction.
So far got a 12AU7 from La Radiotechnique and a 7236 from Tung-Sol. Have a Russian "Svetlana" 6NS13 on the way. Keeping my eyes out for a 5998 that isn't ridiculously priced.
Not sure I can hear a difference so far vs stock tubes. I think I can, but maybe it's because I think I'm supposed to. Still, it's quite fun.
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If you're new to tube rolling, like I am, and just want to hear a more than subtle difference in tubes, try comparing a Mullard CV4003 (box plates) with a, say, Telefunken 12AU7 (smooth plates). I find the Mullard to be too mid-centric, and the lack of top end frequency energy makes it sound unnatural. The Telefunken's mids have some of that holographic effect which I find very pleasing and overall is much more neutral. YMMV, of course.
-Raymond
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If you're new to tube rolling, like I am, and just want to hear a more than subtle difference in tubes, try comparing a Mullard CV4003 (box plates) with a, say, Telefunken 12AU7 (smooth plates). I find the Mullard to be too mid-centric, and the lack of top end frequency energy makes it sound unnatural. The Telefunken's mids have some of that holographic effect which I find very pleasing and overall is much more neutral. YMMV, of course.
-Raymond
Among the dozens of various 12au7 tubes I had tried on a Crack, 7316 is the best driver tube for me unless you can afford these:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/LORENZ-ECC82-12AU7-LONG-WELDED-PLATES-HALO-GTR-SIX-TUBES-ULTRA-ULTRA-RARE-/132611879757?hash=item1ee048b34d%3Ag%3A%7EzwAAOSwtJFasDX0&nma=true&si=oPipPtWcTh6PNFsQgYUTDHO0ddw%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
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is the best driver tube for Crack
It's very important to add "for me" to this kind of statement. Otherwise it is misleading.
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Question for Doc or PB if you would gents would be so kind - if I have a power tube with mismatched sections, one with a Mu of 5.0 and the other with a Mu of 5.4, would that translate to an audible channel imbalance in the Crack circuit?
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Not at all. The cathode follower has no voltage gain, so slight imbalances like that won't be audible like they might otherwise be with a standard voltage amplifier.
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Fantastic, thanks PB! I was going to say, I have some other mismatched power tubes and never noticed an imbalance. Looks like I have some reading to do on cathode followers...
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I'd like to update my comments from a couple of weeks ago:
After replacing both tubes in my Crack (w/Speedball) and burning them in for a while, I believe there is a substantial improvement in the sound quality. The sound stage is broader, the details are crisper. In short, the sound is spectacular. I almost forget I'm wearing headphones. (Sennheiser 6XX.)
New tubes are both NOS from 1965. 12AU7 by La Radiotechnique (French division of Philips, I think) and Tung Sol 7236 power tube.
(Since the world of available tubes seems nearly infinite, I have decide to limit what I am willing to purchase to tubes from the year I was born. I have a Svetlana 6N13S on the way from Ukraine...doubt it will be better than the 7236 consistently but it will be fun to explore.)
It's sooooo cool to be able to find unused tubes that are more than 50 years old. (Assuming the sellers are telling the truth about NOS status.)
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I bought a new set of HD600's and they are indeed spectacular with the Crack w Speedball...
Simply magical!
Alex
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Hi Everyone,
First of all, I'm enjoying my crack and speedball each day. It definitely was one of the best purchases I've made for my setup at home. Everything has been working nicely for the last little while.
I'm interested in changing out the tubes to change the sound a bit. I am actively reading the tube rolling thread, but going through 120 pages of comments will take time.
I've noticed that the highs with the crack and speedball seem to be a little harsh to my ears. Things like cymbals, and sibilance (Like the "shhhh" sound) are sort of painful to my ears.
After a little while my ears do get used to it, but I was wondering if anyone else had this experience, and if changing to a different tube eased these highs?
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What kind of headphones and source are you using?
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Sorry, I forgot to mention that!
Headphones are the Sennheiser HD 6xx/650, and my source in this case is a Topping D30 DAC connected to my PC via USB.
I haven't connected it to my turntable's phono stage yet. I'll be testing that out tonight to see if the DAC is causing the harshness.
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I had that same problem. I also have HD 650, Crack with Speedball. I determined it was a combination of the DAC and tubes I was using. I tried a Topping D50 and it hurt to listen to it for the same reasons as you're describing. I also found I prefer the 6080's and RCA 12AU7 clear top for tubes. This is my experience, your mileage may vary.
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I'm going to get in trouble for asking this but did you notice the "harshness" before or after you installed the speedball?
Let us know how the phono session goes.
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Haven't had a chance to test out the turntable last night (was too tired), but will do it today.
However, if the Crack + SB combo only hurts with the DAC like BZ58 said, then I can live with that, as it's not my main source for listening to music.
@Natural Sound, I only noticed the harshness after installing the speed ball. I did some googling, and it seems that some people experienced something similar.
However, they didn't mentioned what their sources were. I have the same songs on vinyl that I was listening on my PC through my DAC.
So I'll make the comparison tonight and report back.
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It is definitely the DAC, or the combination of everything together.
The same songs on vinyl are much more pleasing. No harsh highs, or harsh silibance!
My ears feel extremely comfortable now :D
It’s too bad the DAC produces the harshness, but I can live with it.
Thanks guys!
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That's unfortunate. It would seem just because something measures well, (thanks ASR) doesn't mean it will sound pleasing to the ears. I personally have the mimby and love it. You could swap tubes and it may curb your frustrations with the DAC, or you could sell the DAC and get something less harsh. Good luck!
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Hey! So I was just looking into tube rolling and read the stickied post and a few others for info. I've been struggling to find info on what all the different letters and numbers in the tube names mean, and how to determine if they're compatible. I was looking at some Mullard CV2984 6080 6AS7 tubes that I think are compatible, but wanted to confirm here first. I also had a few other questions, and any help would be appreciated!
-What does the info on what all the numbers/letters mean as far as compatibility goes?
-What is the difference between military vs nonmilitary tubes?
-Does the speedball installation make a difference with tube compatibility?
-Would accidentally using an incompatible tube cause damage to the amp or voltage discrepancies?
Thanks
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-What does the info on what all the numbers/letters mean as far as compatibility goes?
That's a bit of an overly general question. You'd have to ask the specific differences between two specific tube labels to ask a question that's more answerable.
-What is the difference between military vs nonmilitary tubes?
Sometimes there isn't any beyond a different box and some different printing on the tube. Sometimes there is an extra mica support inside the tube, sometimes there are other modifications for better shock/vibration performance. This is dependent on the tube itself and what the datasheet might or might not call out.
-Does the speedball installation make a difference with tube compatibility?
Nope.
-Would accidentally using an incompatible tube cause damage to the amp or voltage discrepancies?
Yes!
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What does the info on what all the numbers/letters mean as far as compatibility goes?
There were/are no universal numbering or code system for tube designation. There are some general rules but even these don't always apply. This site may give you some insight:
https://www.vintage-radio.com/repair-restore-information/valve_valve-numbering.html (https://www.vintage-radio.com/repair-restore-information/valve_valve-numbering.html)
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Thanks for all the info! Also is the Mullard CV2984 6080 6AS7 tube compatible with the crack? And how do you check the compatibility between tubes and amps?
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Thanks for all the info! Also is the Mullard CV2984 6080 6AS7 tube compatible with the crack? And how do you check the compatibility between tubes and amps?
Yes it is. The amp takes 6080/6AS7 tubes. You can read the first page of this thread to see which tubes you can use with the crack.
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For compatibility, check the first page. Search the web for equivalents. Use the search on this forum for previous threads concerning the same question/tube. If you're still in doubt, ask here.
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Also is the Mullard CV2984 6080 6AS7 tube compatible with the crack?
The CV2984, the 6080, and the 6AS7G are all different tubes. They all work in the Crack.
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In my limited experience researching tubes and buying a few: on eBay some tube sellers will include multiple tube identifying numbers for a tube that's obviously only one of those. Not necessarily trying to deceive but rather including the identifiers of tubes that can usually substitute for each other with only modest differences between then. The issue is that what a seller might thing is a reasonable substitute might not be in your own particular application so you have to do a little more homework.
I'd love for someone more expert to respond to my interpretation of the situation.
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on eBay some tube sellers will include multiple tube identifying numbers for a tube that's obviously only one of those.
Yes, this allows someone searching for a 6080 to see the CV2984. The opposite will also be true though, where someone selling a garden variety 6080 will also add CV2984 in the title to appear in the results for searches of CV2984 (there is 1 legit CV2984 on eBay at the moment, but plenty of other listings that pop up when you search for them).
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In my limited experience researching tubes and buying a few: on eBay some tube sellers will include multiple tube identifying numbers for a tube that's obviously only one of those. Not necessarily trying to deceive but rather including the identifiers of tubes that can usually substitute for each other with only modest differences between then. The issue is that what a seller might thing is a reasonable substitute might not be in your own particular application so you have to do a little more homework.
I'd love for someone more expert to respond to my interpretation of the situation.
Yeah that makes a lot of sense. That's what confused me in the first place because I thought all of those different labels meant different things.
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Hi all,
Anyone have any suggestions for purchasing tubes in the UK? There's a limited selection on ebay, and all seem a little more expensive than prices i've seen quoted elsewhere. A quick google search wasn't particularly revealing either!
Any UK based crack fans help me out?
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Not in the UK, but can suggest https://www.langrex.co.uk (https://www.langrex.co.uk). Not necessarily the cheapest, but they do have a large stocks, and prices can be reasonable.
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I'm in the UK and Langrex are only about 65 miles from me. I have bought a couple of valves from them via eBay, no problems. Mullard CV2984 (£30) and Svetlana 6AS7G (£12). Both new and work well. Currently, have the 6AS7G in. Small differences with both compared to the original 6080 supplied with the kit with the 6080 may be coming out top for me. I'm using a Mullard CV4003 with them. Found that one in a box of sundry tubes I had in my stash.
Crack with Speedball to fit sometime, maybe this winter.
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I had the same trouble until I stopped searching for tubes and looked for valves instead lol ::) Have you tried Watford Valves? I’m tempted by their Cryo range...
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Thanks guys, i'll take a look at those two. The cryo valves do look interesting I agree.
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https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-plated-6F8G-6C8G-TO-ECC82-12AU7-ECC83-12AX7-tube-Converter-adapter-6-3V/191186388446?hash=item2c8398c5de:g:NCwAAOSwu4BVwu6v
This one adapter should work.
6C8G is much cheaper than 6F8G.
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Hey there, I was fortunate enough to get my hands on a Tung-sol 6AS7G, and wonder if there is an ideal pairing brand of 12AU7? Any ideas? I was thinking of using a Tung-Sol 12AU7 from (the tube store) online
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Hey there, I was fortunate enough to get my hands on a Tung-sol 6AS7G, and wonder if there is an ideal pairing brand of 12AU7? Any ideas? I was thinking of using a Tung-Sol 12AU7 from (the tube store) online
If you wanna to use TS 12au7, find/try a smoke-glass one.
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I've been digging through this particular post for quite some time, but I do have a quick question regarding tube pairings:
I've got a Winged "C" 6H13C and a Gold Lion ECC82, and it just seems a bit 'off'. I love the bass, but the mids are a bit too forward, and the treble is slightly recessed but is harsh and slightly sibilant at the same time (in the lower treble region, but I can't pinpoint it with EQ, somewhere in the 2k-6k range?).
Has anyone used this pairing with the same results? I'm not sure if I should solve this with a new 6080 or 12au7, as when I roll either tube the sound is too different to really understand which tube was causing either issue. This is, however, my favorite pairing so far from my current, small, collection of the stock JAN 6080WC, EH Gold Pin 12AU7, and Tung-Sol 12AU7. I apologize if this has been answered earlier, and thank you in advance.
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I've been digging through this particular post for quite some time, but I do have a quick question regarding tube pairings:
I've got a Winged "C" 6H13C and a Gold Lion ECC82, and it just seems a bit 'off'. I love the bass, but the mids are a bit too forward, and the treble is slightly recessed but is harsh and slightly sibilant at the same time (in the lower treble region, but I can't pinpoint it with EQ, somewhere in the 2k-6k range?).
Has anyone used this pairing with the same results? I'm not sure if I should solve this with a new 6080 or 12au7, as when I roll either tube the sound is too different to really understand which tube was causing either issue. This is, however, my favorite pairing so far from my current, small, collection of the stock JAN 6080WC, EH Gold Pin 12AU7, and Tung-Sol 12AU7. I apologize if this has been answered earlier, and thank you in advance.
While I have not used this pairing myself, I have read similar comments from people who have. The following quote is from page 103 of this thread:
Hey fellas,
I'm running the Svetlana 6H13C winged C + Gold Lion 12AU7 and I'm loving the slam it gives music. Definitely makes it more exciting.
But I'm looking for a tube that mellows out music as the aforementioned combo can make it sound harsh. So I'm looking for something that gives that liquidy tube sound. I hear the Mullard CV4003 counteracts the power the Winged C gives. Would one be a good choice?
Anyone who's had both the Gold Lion and Mullard that can give any inputs?
I also have the Mullard 12AU7/ECC82 which I'm liking with the Winged C as it's not as harsh as the Gold Lion.
I personally thought the Gold Lion 12AU7 made the mids more forward than most 12AU7s. Therefore, I suggest rolling the 12AU7.
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While I have not used this pairing myself, I have read similar comments from people who have. The following quote is from page 103 of this thread:
I personally thought the Gold Lion 12AU7 made the mids more forward than most 12AU7s. Therefore, I suggest rolling the 12AU7.
Yeah I did see that, seems like the Mullard is the way to go. I'll give that a go and see how it turns out. I also got a Tung-Sol 7236 so I'll try all the different combos and report back.
Thanks!
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Would the ECC33 work without any changes? I see pins are compatible using a 6SN7 adaptor and heater current is within spec.
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Well. I didn't know yet.
Based in this table https://www.tubeworld.com/ecc32ecc33.htm it should work.
The datasheet also looks ok for Crack https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/129/e/ECC33.pdf, a bit more amplification.
But i have succesfully used the ECC32 type tube in my Crack.
So i just now plugged in the ECC33 and they sound fine, so i'd use them.
For a Crack with speedball, go ahead and try.
I don't have time to measure voltages at 1 and 5, do that to determine if it's working ok.
PS: it replaced a 7N7 tube in my Crack. Also a very nice tube to try (and cheap).
Edit: Nice tube actually. Good layered soundstage. Mullard sound. Loving it with Hd800's.
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Would the ECC33 work without any changes? I see pins are compatible using a 6SN7 adaptor and heater current is within spec.
The 22.1K resistors in the stock circuit should be changed to 47K.
The 237 ohm R1 resistors in the Speedball board should be changed to about 350 ohms.
The extra gain from these tubes will not be welcomed by most. The load line for this tube looks terrible just plugging it into the stock Crack.
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Crack is made for rolling tube's!
I still use it more than my Mainline (they are next to each other!)
Tonight i had a fun experiment.
https://ep1.pinkbike.org/p5pb16745694/p5pb16745694.jpg (https://ep1.pinkbike.org/p5pb16745694/p5pb16745694.jpg)
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Hey, another new builder checking in. I have about 4 days of listening in on my new crack. I'm holding off to install the speedball so I can get used to things first.
But... I do want to try a few inexpensive tubes. I've read a bunch of this thread but not nearly all.
2 questions.
1. Does the Input tube up have a more noticeable effect on the sound?
2. How do these two guys look for an intro into rolling? (See attached screenshot)
**Edit, pretty sure I found the answer to my first question.
The general rule of thumb (IMO) is that the more gain, the more influence.
Since the 6080 is wired for unity gain, the 12AU7 should have a vastly greater influence on the sound, though there are some special 6080 variants that may suggest otherwise.
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Hi Group,
I misread some of the comments here and plugged my VT-231 into the output socket and listened away. I actually had a few hours on it before I figured it out. Nothing exploded and it sounded OK to me except a very slight flange effect sound in the mids, but I figured it's old, actually a really old sample. Anyway, I'm wondering what's the harm in continuing to use it as the output from time to time? I've since rolled my 6as7's in and out and the amp's fine.
-Greg
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I would say the "Crack" is made for "intelligent" tube rolling!!
:>)
http://www.diyparadise.com/tubeloadline/tubeloadlines.html
When I was in tech school, back with the dinosaurs (who were still smoking Lucky Strikes)....we had to draw countless load lines in our vacuum tube labs
and final exams!!
I think I have forgot most of this stuff, but when you start stuffing those glass bottles in those sockets lots of stuff is happening...and if your not really
sure of how the circuit is put together..you may have a very unpleasant surprise!!
Alex
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I misread some of the comments here and plugged my VT-231 into the output socket and listened away. I actually had a few hours on it before I figured it out. Nothing exploded and it sounded OK to me except a very slight flange effect sound in the mids, but I figured it's old, actually a really old sample. Anyway, I'm wondering what's the harm in continuing to use it as the output from time to time? I've since rolled my 6as7's in and out and the amp's fine.
Someone else did this a while ago and tried to argue that there was no problem. I went through the laundry list of problems that you'll run into if you do this, but the post is proving to be a little elusive to find.
It's not surprising that nothing happened that immediately. What you're doing would be like going out and starting your car, then putting a cinder block on the gas pedal and walking away. Will your car still run for a while? Probably so, but you can expect imminent destruction in a far shorter time period compared to normal use.
The amp also isn't designed for the 6SN7 to plug into that socket. The 6SN7 would be a poor choice overall for this position, so it's not like a moderate amount of tweaking would make the 6SN7 work in place of the 6080. They are very, very different tubes made for completely different purposes.
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Someone else did this a while ago and tried to argue that there was no problem. I went through the laundry list of problems that you'll run into if you do this, but the post is proving to be a little elusive to find.
It's not surprising that nothing happened that immediately. What you're doing would be like going out and starting your car, then putting a cinder block on the gas pedal and walking away. Will your car still run for a while? Probably so, but you can expect imminent destruction in a far shorter time period compared to normal use.
The amp also isn't designed for the 6SN7 to plug into that socket. The 6SN7 would be a poor choice overall for this position, so it's not like a moderate amount of tweaking would make the 6SN7 work in place of the 6080. They are very, very different tubes made for completely different purposes.
OK. Thank's Paul. That's good to know. Maybe I'll get an adapter for the driver socket.
Thank you for the quick reply.
-Greg
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Another good site i used to learn and draw loadlines for tubes: https://robrobinette.com/Drawing_Tube_Load_Lines.htm
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I just wanted to post about my experience with the JJ ECC802s gold pin tube in the basic Crack build (I don't have the Speedball upgrade yet). I'm finding this tube to be excellent, and I definitely prefer it to the tube that came with the kit (in my case the stock tube is marked as CONN Ltd 12AU7). The stock tube felt a touch rolled off in the treble and thus lacking a little in sizzle and sparkle. The JJ tube seems to improve on that considerably. It has a wonderfully rich mid-range and timbre with orchestral instruments. At least to my ears, in my crack build, ymmv, i could be deaf, caveat emptor. Any others try out this tube?
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Another good site i used to learn and draw loadlines for tubes: https://robrobinette.com/Drawing_Tube_Load_Lines.htm
Thanks for posting this. Very helpful. The more I learn (still only at the beginning of the learning curve), the more I am equally baffled by and drawn to the arcana of tube audio. Perhaps in every vacuum tube sits an acoustic version of Maxwell's Demon, and tube audio adepts like those at BH have figured out how to coax the demon to separate beautiful sound from noise.
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I just finished a Crack. I love it already. I'm thrilled with it. Simple, well-conceived and executed, elegant, and sounds great. Just doin' the old Sennheiser thing with it; Massdrop x Sennheiser HD-6XXs. Best I've heard the 6XXs sound.
I lived a long time with a Conrad-Johnson preamp that used the 12AU7. It's a comfortable tube family for me and I have a cosmologically large selection of them. The 6080 is new for me.
I have the Speedball upgrade, have it prepared for installation, but haven't installed it, yet. I'm acclimating myself and shaking down the stock Crack. Sounds just fine as-is, though can't resist some fettling.
My Crack was supplied with a '50s vintage Sylvania black plate 12AU7 and a '67-dated GE 6080 wearing RCA livery. They are doing a fine job is sounding very fine. Nice, quiet, good-sounding vintage tubes.
I've tried some other 12AU7s. Just a few. I've come upon one that just bests the supplied Sylvania.
I have purchased some other 6080s to try.
I've really liked the 6CG7 and 6SN7 in previous tube lives. I would like to experiment first with the 6CG7 in the 12AU7 position. Reading through some of the Crack discussions, it seems that this is an easy'ish tube to adapt the Crack to run. ???
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Seems this tube hasn't been brought up in a couple years, but man, the Tung Sol 7802, while quite rare, is absolutely top three in the output position in the Crack/Crackatwoa.
I recently came across a few auctions on Ebay for untested 7802's, I bought them all, unsure if they would actually work. Luckily they did. From my listening, they outperform the Tung Sol 5998. They lean more to the high end, upper midrange-treble forward, but non-fatiguing, I find they pair very well with warmer headphones (ZMF Atticus, HD650).
I know the Western Electric 421A is for all intents and purposes considered to be the same tube as a Tung Sol 5998. I own several of both, and my ears say otherwise. With that being said, I believe the Tung Sol 7802 is on par with the Western Electric 421A in terms of technical performance, but a brighter sound signature.
Here is how I rank my personal Crack tube collection:
Western Electric 421A = Tung Sol 7802 > Tung Sol 421A > Tung Sol 5998 > various 6080 types
Keep your eyes peeled, I will try to keep myself from continuously hoarding them ;)
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I'm far from expert in this, but two quick things: One, after building the Crack (w/Speedball) I soon learned that the world of tubes, even if looking at just the two tubes for a Crack, is nearly infinitely large so I'll throw out a suggestion which has helped me limit the time and money that I spend with what could a massive obsession: I will only buy tubes made in the year I was born.
Second, speaking of unusual tubes, I recently got a Burroughs 2399, which is basically a version of a Tung Sol 5998 but has a reputation as a stellar tube. Shockingly rare. I mean, there is usually not one for sale on eBay or online at any price. Not cheap but less than the 421A! It also looks really cool. Anyway, I absolutely love listening to the Crack with that tube. (My 12AU7 is a La Radiotechnique also from the year of my birth.) Anyway, maybe something to keep an eye out for.
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I recently got a Burroughs 2399, which is basically a version of a Tung Sol 5998
It is a TS 5998 that's been rebranded.
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Hello. I have a Crack w/ Speedball. I am currently using a Tung-Sol 7236 and really enjoy the bass. I was wondering whether it would be safe to substitute the 12au7 for a 7N7 if I used an adapter? I really like the 7N7 in a tube buffer that I currently use. Thanks!
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You can use 6SN7 type tubes and all variants.
I used 7N7 tubes with my Crack with good results (these sound like the best Sylvania 6SN7's).
6F8G is another commonly used alternative with great sound (6C8G is another).
6J5 pair or 7193 pairs will work aswel (and may sound even better).
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Thanks! I tried the 7N7 and think it sounds quite good. Been enjoying my Beyerdynamic T1.2 and Sennheiser HD 6XX with the BHC.
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I am assuming you need an adapter? And one would have to use a pair of 7193? Like this? h t t p s://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Dual-6C8P-2C22-7193-CV6-CV3601-TO-12AX7-12AU7-tube-converter-adapter-6-3V/191552830664
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Yes. For 6J5 and 2C22 tubes you need an dual 8 pin to single 9 pin adapter like the on in the link.
Good look with experimenting with Crack. Let us know about the results!
Another "6SN7" i had good results with were ECC32's. These are unobtainable so can't recommend them.
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Is anyone using 6F8G tubes using a 6F8G to 12AU7 adapter in their Crack or Crackatwoa and not getting a 60Hz buzzing in one channel? Trying to diagnose if what I am experiencing is a grounding issue or if it just the nature of the tube-amp pairing.
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For ECC40 with an adaptor is the same resistance value as E80CC(470ohm) the correct value?
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Yes. The ECC40 functions with the same parameters as the E80CC. It was it's predecessor.
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Just wondering what are some recommended power and driver tubes in the lower sub $30 price range that are more readily available and rated good for the money (better then stock)?
Going off some reviews I am looking at the 6H13C Winged-C power tube and driver tube the 12AU7 Mullard/Brimar CV4003 or ECC82 Mullard? I'm hoping these are better then stock for fairly little outlay?
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Would this work for a 6sn7 to 12AU7 adapter: h t t p s://www.ebay.com/itm/GARAGE1217-6SN7-TO-12AU7-TUBE-SOCKET-ADAPTER-OUTSTANDING-BUILD-QUALITY/254027687944?hash=item3b253ae808:g:-PYAAOSwOyJX-neh
It specifically says this:
This adapter allows you to use a 6sn7 tube in place of a 12au7 in certain designs (heater voltage must be 6.3V on the 12au7 / center tap used) Do not use this adapter if you amplifier runs at a true 12.6V on the heater circuit. Also, do not use this adapter if your 12au7 socket is flush with or sitting below a metal chassis plate
Looking at the manual it appears as though everything checks out, I'm just not sure about the "center tap used" part.
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I think that is the adapter that isn't noisy. The Crack uses 6.3V heaters, so functionally that is the correct adapter. The 12AU7 has a 12V heater with an extra connection in the middle. If you tie the ends of the heater together and use the center connection, then you can heat the tube with 6V.
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Can anybody recommend me tubes to get with a budget of 100usd? I would like a slightly v sound with bigger sound stage. It's just that I don't much about tubes since this is my 1st tube amp .
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Can anybody recommend me tubes to get with a budget of 100usd? I would like a slightly v sound with bigger sound stage. It's just that I don't much about tubes since this is my 1st tube amp .
Do you mind to use an adapter?
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The ECC32 is a 6SN7 and should work with the stock Speedball.
Curious about tube rolling.
So when you plug in a 6SN7 tube and adapter to replace the 12AU7 tube on a stock Crack with Speedball, you don't need to make any other changes?
Someone said you need to change the resistors on the speedball. Is that true, or is it as simple as "plug and go"?
Thanks.
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Hi, BZ58, the Syl 6SN7W is one of the best 6SN7 tubes (military grade tube, long life, very very quite). They can be used as driver tubes with an adapter on Crack (same gains, but draw 0.6A).
http://www.fourwater.com/files/hist6sn7.txt
Hi attmci,
So 6SN7 doubles the current, right? Do we need to change the resistors in Crack w/Speedball, or it's just fine?
Will there be excess heat?
Thanks!
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A 6SN7 (w) will work just fine with the stock speedball setup. No need to change resistors.
The 0.6 amp heaters are ok for Crack. Max is 3.5 amps for all tubes together. Output normally uses 2.5A.
That said, the ECC32 is not an exact 6SN7. See: https://www.tubeworld.com/ecc32ecc33.htm
It works fine in the stock speedball Crack, though the E80CC resistor change helps to optimize the voltages.
The ECC32 is unobtanium and overpriced. Tried a few, and they are somewhat suspect to hum from the PT.
They do sound great, but can't recommend them for the price. Do mind the 0.9A heater current.
I've tried many 6SN7 and variants and they all work fine with Crack.
Right now using RCA 6as7g with 5692, also not a 6SN7 but close enough and functioning perfectly in Crack.
Also bit pricey for Crack, but extremely well build. If i ever build a tube amp for my car, this i'd use.
From my personal experience, don't buy expensive tubes. Better learn a thing or two by making modifications to your Crack and save the money for a better amp. The best Crack is not a S3X and a Mainline is in a entirely different league.
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Thank you very much Tom-s for your detailed explanation and insight into the 6SN7 tubes! It's very helpful.
Very glad to know that 6SN7 is as simple as "plug and go". I built my Crack w/speedball with great care. It sang amazingly for me from the moment it was completed. So really don't want to screw it up accidentally when changing something like resistors on the SB circuit board.
I haven't really looked into tube rolling yet. Just quickly looked up the 6SN7GT tubes the other day, and found lots of them could be outrageous in price.
Do you have any good value 6SN7 tubes to recommend (i.e. sound good but do not break the bank)?
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Regarding the additional heat caused by doubling the current for 6SN7, it could be a problem for a Crack without Speedball, because the wirewound resistors under the heat sink might generate excess heat. However, with the removal of wirewound resistors during Speedball installation, there won't be heat from the 2 wirewound resistors anymore, hence it is no longer a problem to Crack with Speedball, right?
Not sure whether my poor reasoning on the possible heat issue is correct or not? ;) My knowledge in electrics is very limited.
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The 6SN7 is plug and go in a Crack with speedball (with adapter).
Don't get into tube rolling. It's a trap. ;D
The heater current has nothing to do with the heat from the 5w bias resistors.
Edit: It will function just fine. Heat will not be an issue.
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Cool.
I don't remember where I read it, but someone reported the wirewound resistors under the heat sink became very hot and wires next to them turned brown after rolling in a 6SN7. So I was kinda concerned about 6SN7 tubes. But it's okay now. Thanks very much.
Hopefully I won't get into the trap, or at least not too deep into the trap. We'll see. ;)
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I don't remember where I read it, but someone reported the wirewound resistors under the heat sink became very hot and wires next to them turned brown after rolling in a 6SN7. So I was kinda concerned about 6SN7 tubes.
Maybe he used a really dead 6SN7 or had other issues with the amp.
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Bangy Bang Tubes does not have a particularly savory reputation, I'd suggest doing some research before spending any money there.
Although these are labeled as "Stromberg Carlson", they are Tung Sol 6080s.
Tung Sol 6080s (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Set-of-Three-Stromberg-Carlson-6080-NOS-Vacuum-Tubes-NIB/263767506588?hash=item3d69c4be9c:g:PWYAAOSwYK1bHswa)
This has one Tung Sol and one GE:
Tung Sol & GE (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-of-Stromberg-Carlson-6080-NOS-Vacuum-Tubes-NIB/263767506736?hash=item3d69c4bf30:g:5KcAAOSw9N5bHsvh)
Hi Paul,
You are definitely an expert in tubes. I think most of us here do not possess the knowledge like you do to find out the target tubes from these rebranded ones, while you can easily tell them apart just by the look and structure of them.
If you do find some good deals on 5998/6520/421A/6AS7G tubes or other good tubes for Crack from eBay or other places (rebranded or not), can you post them here? I think lots of Crack users here would be very interested.
Thanks a lot!
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I would recommended talking to Jim at vacuumtubesinc.com, or Jim at McShane Design.
It takes a ton of time to sort through all the listings on eBay!
This is a pretty decent listing:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/4-PCS-CSF-6080WA-6AS7G-Chinese-6N5PJ-TUBE-VALVE-french-made-one-of-the-best/173722865320?hash=item2872b08ea8:g:HSoAAOSwwTla~7iv (https://www.ebay.com/itm/4-PCS-CSF-6080WA-6AS7G-Chinese-6N5PJ-TUBE-VALVE-french-made-one-of-the-best/173722865320?hash=item2872b08ea8:g:HSoAAOSwwTla~7iv)
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I know this advice won't be for everyone but here goes...
I realized that the world of tubes is so enormous that I had to do something to limit what I'd consider buying. So my filter is that I only buy tubes from the year I was born. It makes the shopping process quite a bit less time consuming. And it's also fun to learn how to understand the codes on tubes. Surprisingly easy to find tubes from the year of my birth (in the 1960s).
My favorite so far, and I absolutely can't believe I found one, is a Burroughs 2399 (Made by Tung Sol but quite rare and sounds fantastic!)
My 12AU7 is by LaRadiotechnique...another fairly cool brand.
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Rule no.1. buy cheap. ;D
Get a cool coke shaped bottle for Crack.
The output tube i recommend to try (prefer it over RCA 6as7g) is the Russian 6N13s https://www.ebay.com/itm/382880263018
Pair it with some locally found Ecc82/6sn7.
A Tungsram E80CC is a nice tube in a speedballed Crack.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/142545441812
Edit: La Radiotechnique is a Philips tube. Ecc82 was made in the Suresnes Philips factory, like ECC40.
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I would recommended talking to Jim at vacuumtubesinc.com, or Jim at McShane Design.
It takes a ton of time to sort through all the listings on eBay!
This is a pretty decent listing:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/4-PCS-CSF-6080WA-6AS7G-Chinese-6N5PJ-TUBE-VALVE-french-made-one-of-the-best/173722865320?hash=item2872b08ea8:g:HSoAAOSwwTla~7iv (https://www.ebay.com/itm/4-PCS-CSF-6080WA-6AS7G-Chinese-6N5PJ-TUBE-VALVE-french-made-one-of-the-best/173722865320?hash=item2872b08ea8:g:HSoAAOSwwTla~7iv)
These French 6080s seem to be a great deal. Thank you very for the link.
I will also give Jim a call sometime. The problem with vacuumtubes is that they list tubes and prices on their website even thou they probably do not have most of them. So it is really hard to find tubes from them unless you give them a call.
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Rule no.1. buy cheap. ;D
Get a cool coke shaped bottle for Crack.
The output tube i recommend to try (prefer it over RCA 6as7g) is the Russian 6N13s https://www.ebay.com/itm/382880263018
Pair it with some locally found Ecc82/6sn7.
A Tungsram E80CC is a nice tube in a speedballed Crack.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/142545441812
Edit: La Radiotechnique is a Philips tube. Ecc82 was made in the Suresnes Philips factory, like ECC40.
These Russian 6N13 should be the same as Winged C 6H13C, am I rignt?
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These French 6080s seem to be a great deal. Thank you very for the link.
I will also give Jim a call sometime. The problem with vacuumtubes is that they list tubes and prices on their website even thou they probably do not have most of them. So it is really hard to find tubes from them unless you give them a call.
I would e-mail him, that gives him the time to get everything together without the time crunch of being on the phone.
-PB
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Cool, will definitely write an email to them. :)
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Cool.
I don't remember where I read it, but someone reported the wirewound resistors under the heat sink became very hot and wires next to them turned brown after rolling in a 6SN7. So I was kinda concerned about 6SN7 tubes. But it's okay now. Thanks very much.
Hopefully I won't get into the trap, or at least not too deep into the trap. We'll see. ;)
Nope, you have to use a 6SN7GT to 12au7 adapter. So the heat is not a problem here.
Have you read this?
https://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=663.465
These are great drivers for Crack (bent ones):
https://www.ebay.com/itm/CBS-5814A-Pairs-Black-Plates-3-Pairs-available-5814-12au7-ecc82-/202623303320
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Same seller that Paul (very cool find on the 6080 BTW) linked to earlier has a listing for Mullard CV4003. Super popular for the Crack. Although a little on the expensive side, still cheaper than most, usually see these around $99.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mullard-ECC802S-M8136-12AU7WA-ECC82-box-plate-small-shield-UK-made-TUBE-VALVE-/173814424654
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Rule no.1. buy cheap. ;D
Get a cool coke shaped bottle for Crack.
The output tube i recommend to try (prefer it over RCA 6as7g) is the Russian 6N13s https://www.ebay.com/itm/382880263018
Pair it with some locally found Ecc82/6sn7.
A Tungsram E80CC is a nice tube in a speedballed Crack.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/142545441812
Edit: La Radiotechnique is a Philips tube. Ecc82 was made in the Suresnes Philips factory, like ECC40.
So I just grabbed 2 of the eight 6H13C tubes as some backup. I was quite surprised to see someone had already grabbed 3 just ahead of me (must be some Crack user here acted earlier than me...lol). Now only 3 tubes left. At $8 apiece it's just too good to be missed...lol ;D
Thank you very much for the link and search, Tom!
The print on the tubes from this ebay seller is slightly different than the ones I saw before. The ones I saw before have "OTK 1" vertically printed beside the 6H13C label, but this one has "OTK 27" printed inside a circle. So I am not too sure if the ones in the link should still be Winged "C" 6H13C or not?
Another thing I noticed when I was searching for 6H13C on ebay is that some seller dated his/her 6H13Cs as 1997 new production, while another seller dated his/her 6H13Cs as 1978 vintage. Not sure if there is any sonic difference between the new production and vintage, and which one is preferred in Crack?
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They appear to have a winged C on the photo's. So they'll be fine.
I only have one 6H13C and one 6H5C in my collection.
With +- 30-50 output tubes for Crack i've plenty of variety, no need to buy different date codes to try different sound. I just put in a different 6080/6as7 and discover a new sound every time.
From personal experience with tubes, the date code makes minor difference in sound compared to just putting in another brand of tube.
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Jaw dropped...I wish I started the collection much earlier and had such a large reservoir. :o
Agree with you different batches of the same brand should make small differences. Now eyeing on 5998s... ;)
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Nope, you have to use a 6SN7GT to 12au7 adapter. So the heat is not a problem here.
Have you read this?
https://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=663.465
Got it, thanks a lot!
Regarding input tubes, do you guys have any recommended 12AU7/6SN7 (w/adapter)/or other tubes?
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Used Mullard/Amperex 12AU7 tubes can be bought inexpensively, especially if you buy strange rebrandings.
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Rolled in a 6AS7 using an adapter. I really like what I'm hearing with my 650's. More space between instruments and effects. Vocals sound really great as well.
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A 6AS7 does not need an adapter, it plugs right into the 6080 socket. If you are trying to use some sort of adapter to replace the 12AU7 with a 6AS7 you will smoke your power transformer.
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Rolled in a 6AS7 using an adapter. I really like what I'm hearing with my 650's. More space between instruments and effects. Vocals sound really great as well.
Did you mean 6SN7 input tube? ;) And which 6SN7 tube it is?
6AS7 should work in Crack as power tube without any adapters as far as I read.
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Got some questions:
Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that the 6080 power tube in Crack is only a cathode follower and no voltage amplification is done by it (only losses, so max amp factor is 1.0).
Does that mean the 12AU7 driver tube has much more sonic importance than the 6080 power tube does in Crack (because 12AU7 does the main amplification work in Crack)? And so it's much more important to find a good driver tube first (i.e. roll 12AU7 first before 6080)?
But now so many people here are obsessed in finding a power tube, why is that?
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Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that the 6080 power tube in Crack is only a cathode follower and no voltage amplification is done by it (only losses, so max amp factor is 1.0).
Does that mean the 12AU7 driver tube has much more sonic importance than the 6080 power tube does in Crack (because 12AU7 does the main amplification work in Crack)? And so it's much more important to find a good driver tube first (i.e. roll 12AU7 first before 6080)?
But now so many people here are obsessed in finding a 5998 tube, why is that?
Someone mentioned that the 12AU7 tube in the Crack is only a voltage amplifier, and that no current amplification is done by it (assuming the Speedball is installed). Does that mean that the 6080 has much more sonic importance than the 12AU7 driver tube in Crack? (because the 6080 does the main amplification work in Crack)?
Both questions are valid!
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Someone mentioned that the 12AU7 tube in the Crack is only a voltage amplifier, and that no current amplification is done by it (assuming the Speedball is installed). Does that mean that the 6080 has much more sonic importance than the 12AU7 driver tube in Crack? (because the 6080 does the main amplification work in Crack)?
Both questions are valid!
Thanks a lot for the answer. I am still confused because of my innocence in electronics.
I reviewed page 22 where Nick said no voltage amplification in Crack while Beefy said 12Au7 amplifies the voltage. I guess in this case Beefy was correct from your answer.
But somewhere (could remember which page now) I read there is only loss to the cathode follower and the max amp factor is 1.0. So 5998 has more gains than 6080 does, because it has less loss.
From above I reasoned that the amplification job is mainly done by 12AU7, as cathode follower can only produce losses.
I guess you are correct that 6080 does the main amplification job - the name "power tube" just sounds right to me in term of amplification. But I couldn't figure out where I made the mistakes regarding the losses on cathode follower and 5998vs6080 in my previous post. :(
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Did you mean 6SN7 input tube? ;) And which 6SN7 tube it is?
6AS7 should work in Crack as power tube without any adapters as far as I read.
DOH - my bad, yes I meant 6SN7. It's a zenith , late 50s I believe. These are rebranded Amperex correct?
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as cathode follower can only produce losses.
You could make a sub-unity voltage gain Crack with no 12AU7, but you couldn't make anything useful for driving headphones with just a 12AU7.
If you switch your thinking to current, then things change significantly.
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You could make a sub-unity voltage gain Crack with no 12AU7, but you couldn't make anything useful for driving headphones with just a 12AU7.
If you switch your thinking to current, then things change significantly.
Found PJ's comments on Page 30, "The output tube is used as a cathode follower, so the gain of that stage is always a bit less than 1.0. Into a high impedance, the 6AS7 might have a fain of 0.65, vs. 0.8 or so for a 5998." So I guess "gain less than 1.0" doesn't necessarily translate into "amp factor less than 1.0 (i.e. no amplification)".
It's becoming too technical now for an electronics novice like me, so I gave up...LOL
So I only take the conclusion that power tube has more sonic impact, and 5998 sounds louder than 6AS7.
Anyway, thanks a lot for the reply, PB!
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So I only take the conclusion that power tube has more sonic impact, and 5998 sounds louder than 6AS7.
The 5998 has a little extra transconductance and will have slightly lower output impedance than a 6AS7. Personally I think the 12AU7 matters a whole lot more. The 5998 shouldn't be audibly louder than the 6AS7.
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Jamie, It's rare that I ever hear anyone mention Eva Cassidy. "Live at Blues Alley" is probably my all time favorite album. So sad that such a remarkable talent passed away at such a young age. She sounds great on my Crack with 5998 and a Ken Rad 5814 ( 1948).
It's not so rare, i think. ;)
Eva Cassidy's "Live at Blues Alley" is also one of my favorites. "Autumn Leaves" is a blessing.
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They appear to have a winged C on the photo's. So they'll be fine.
I only have one 6H13C and one 6H5C in my collection.
With +- 30-50 output tubes for Crack i've plenty of variety, no need to buy different date codes to try different sound. I just put in a different 6080/6as7 and discover a new sound every time.
From personal experience with tubes, the date code makes minor difference in sound compared to just putting in another brand of tube.
I agree with Tom. Try different tubes, then buy backups of the ones you like.
Hard to get rid of those W-Cs. :)
BTW, all tubes (driver, power, rectifier) have "sonic impact". But everyone has his/her own taste.
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I loved my 5998. Unfortunately, it died on me the other day. I was switching out the 12AU7, and I didn't let it cool down long enough. Turned it back on, and I get very little output. Now I'm running a Bendix 6080WB graphite plate. It's not as pretty as the 5998, but it does sound great.
Sorry to hear the tragic...but I don't understand why the tubes need to cool down?
I remember Doc B. said earlier that all you need to do is just to power off the Crack and then roll tubes.
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NVM, found the answer. :)
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Eva Cassidy!!
Really great talent, that passed away...so young....
I have most of her albums and they all are awesome.
The Live at Blues Alley is really superb!
Alex
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@cddc, for all the tube rolling. Just buy any tube you can find cheap.
Good catch on the ECC40's. Personally i liked the Eindhoven (only the early years of ECC40's were build there) and Hamburg manufactured Philips tubes best. Second is the Sittard plant, after that the French factories.
The difference between the exact same type off tubes is small but a lot of fun to explore. I've found the supertubes within a certain type of tubes are usually not exactly the same type, as they are electrically slightly different (the 5998, Bendix 6080 and CV2523 all are for 6080's par example). This is what attributes to their different sonic signature in my perception.
I have many driver tubes for Crack but the rules on this forum do not allow me to sell them to other members, otherwise i'd gladly help out.
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Tom, thank you very much for pioneering the use of ECC40's and helping us with your findings there.
After reading pages of this thread, I kinda get lost :-\ There seems to be some widely agreed upon power tubes. But in term of driver tubes there are just so many different tube families (12AU7/6SN7/12BH7/ECC40/E80CC, etc) to choose from. It's like rolling a dice, I guess.
So far your opinions and recommendations have been great, I much appreciate it!
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Tom, thank you very much for pioneering the use of ECC40's and helping us with your findings there.
After reading pages of this thread, I kinda get lost :-\ There seems to be some widely agreed upon power tubes. But in term of driver tubes there are just so many different tube families (12AU7/6SN7/12BH7/ECC40/E80CC, etc) to choose from. It's like rolling a dice, I guess.
So far your opinions and recommendations have been great, I much appreciate it!
Well, again this is all personal preference...........
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I think that is the adapter that isn't noisy. The Crack uses 6.3V heaters, so functionally that is the correct adapter. The 12AU7 has a 12V heater with an extra connection in the middle. If you tie the ends of the heater together and use the center connection, then you can heat the tube with 6V.
www.ebay.com/itm/GARAGE1217-6SN7-TO-12AU7-TUBE-SOCKET-ADAPTER-OUTSTANDING-BUILD-QUALITY/254027687944?hash=item3b253ae808:g:-PYAAOSwOyJX-neh
Is this Garage1217 6SN7-to-12AU7 adapter ($33 shipped) any good?
I concern about the use of PCB instead of solid core copper wires in the Garage1217 one. I think PCB is inferior to wires in term of conductivity and capacitance (one of the many reasons why Crack sounds so good vs. a SS amp on PCB). So I searched eBay and found this cheaper one ($13.44 shipped) with solid core wires.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-6SN7-To-ECC83-12AX7-12AU7-Vacuum-Tube-Amp-Convert-Socket-Adapter-6-3V/312206555328?hash=item48b0f5f8c0:g:~rkAAOSwGDZbYVR3
Will the cheaper one work in Crack? I think 6.3v on 12AU7 sockets should make it work, right?
BTW, these 2 adapters should work for 6SN7 and its variants (like 7N7, 1633, Soviet 6Ð8С, etc), right?
Many thanks.
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I just use the cheapest china adapters. And until now (have about 20) never had any problems with them.
Only once ordered a 12v version instead of 6v, so just resoldered that myself.
I'd probably buy this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/201201010078
You can use all 6SN7 and pin-out equivalent tubes.
So 6SN7, CV181 (ECC32), 5692, 6H8C, B65 can be used in Crack.
7N7 is a loktal socket 6sn7 equivalent and won't work without it's specific adapter, but i've used it in Crack.
1633 is a 25V SN7, like 12SN7 is a 12V SN7 tube and 12SX7 is a 12V SN7 with a more rigid heater like 12AU7.
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I just use the cheapest china adapters. And until now (have about 20) never had any problems with them.
Only once ordered a 12v version instead of 6v, so just resoldered that myself.
I'd probably buy this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/201201010078
You can use all 6SN7 and pin-out equivalent tubes.
So 6SN7, CV181 (ECC32), 5692, 6H8C, B65 can be used in Crack.
7N7 is a loktal socket 6sn7 equivalent and won't work without it's specific adapter, but i've used it in Crack.
1633 is a 25V SN7, like 12SN7 is a 12V SN7 tube and 12SX7 is a 12V SN7 with a more rigid heater like 12AU7.
Wonderful, thank you very much, Tom!
I initially thought all 6SN7 variants will work with the 6SN7-to-12AU7 adapters mentioned above, except the ST shaped 6F8G/6C8G (just like most 12AU7 variants work with the 12AU7 socket). But now it seems lots of them won't work with the 6SN7-to-12AU7 adapter due to different voltages or socket shapes.
Tom, you mentioned "7N7 needs a special loktal adapter, but you've used it in Crack", I am a little bit confused here. Did you mean you used a 7N7 along with a loktal adapter in your Crack, or you just simply pushed it into the 6SN7-to-12AU7 adapter you recommended?
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I've used 7N7 with it's specific adapter in Crack. It will not work in a 6SN7 socket.
And it sounded just fine with Crack. It's a cheap tube to find (especially in the USA).
That being said, personally i used a few short and tall bottle versions in my Crack to try.
The sound is similar to Sylvania 6SN7 variants.
6SN7 socket is more useful for tube rolling with Crack with a lot of tubes to try.
I've tried +- 20-30 versions of 6SN7 (RCA (American and EU factories), GE, Sylvania, Tung Sol etc), the ECC32 (CV181) Mullard versions, the 5692 RCA and CBS versions, the Russian 6N8S normal and 1578 variety.
The 6F8G/6C8G tube adapter is a more versatile adapter compared to 7N7 with more tube rolling / sound flavouring options (only tried +-10 different types in that).
Edit: 6F8G/6C8G's are generally a lot cheaper compared to their equivalent brand/type 6SN7's, with a very musical sound. But more prone to hum/microphony in my experience.
Edit 2: Warning! Don't get lost in tube rolling. Don't be like me ;D .
The effect on sound is minor at best. It's seasoning / flavouring of the sound. If you want better sound, get S3X (it also gives reason to buy speakers (at least, it did for me)). If you want to be done with it, buy a Mainline (yes, it is that good). I have too many tubes to try in Crack, and with whatever tube, it's not a S3X and never close to Mainline. That said, Crack is next to Mainline on the desk and i listen to it 90% of the time vs Mainline 10% (both with HD800). :-X
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Super, thanks very much again for your opinions, Tom!
You are right 7N7s and 6SN7s are easy to find on ebay.com for decent prices. 6F8Gs and 6C8Gs seem much more expensive on ebay.com currently, maybe it's a different story in Europe. :)
For the tube rolling I just want to try it for fun - plan to grab several preamp tubes and several power tubes to try it first, hopefully will not end up being obsessed ;D
I have 2 pairs of bookshelf speakers, one Sony and one Dynaudio - Dynaudio sounds way better than Sony IMO, with accurate presentation and spacious soundstage. Currently I'm 50/50 on speakers and headphones. Down the road will definitely consider getting some other amps to try, especially these DIY tube amps - amazing sound and lots of fun. :)
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A quick question: just pulled trigger on a 12BH7 driver tube, does it need an adapter for the 12AU7 socket?
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A quick question: just pulled trigger on a 12BH7 driver tube, does it need an adapter for the 12AU7 socket?
Circuit changes.
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Thanks a lot, PB.
By circuit changes you mean I should adjust the resistors/LED for optimal performance, but the pinout of 12BH7 should be the same as 12AU7 hence no adapter is needed, am I correct?
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The pinout is the same, but the plate voltage will drop considerably if you use it in the stock circuit.
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Gotcha, thank you very much :)
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I, and many others on the other site, have plenty of problems............with cheap adapters.
Why not try some better 12au7s (designed for the circuit) first before using those adapters?? The best 12au7s are still much cheaper than top 6SN7s.
And a B65 for Crack????
Cheap Vt99/6f8g? Try these:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&LH_Complete=1&_udlo=&_udhi=&_samilow=&_samihi=&_sadis=15&_stpos=08820&_dmd=1&_ipg=200&_fosrp=1&_nkw=6f8g+tung+sol&_sop=13
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Gracious, when did the 6F8G get so expensive?
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How could i rebuild my Crack to work with this tube? http://tdsl.duncanamps.com/pdf/a2900.pdf
Or could it be done by just raising the R1 resistor to 1k ohm?
Or should i use another LED color for correct bias?
As a don't have a volume control in my Crack, i'm ok with the higher gain.
Edit: I can imagine it being a no-go as the current would be to low for the LED to light up/function for getting it within save function. And lower bias would trow off the 6080 function.
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That tube has way, way too much amplification factor. The extra 15dB of gain that you will get from using that tube will be very unwelcome.
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Aside from the fact that it would be a problem in a Crack with volume control.
I'm ok with the extra gain. I just want to try this tube, and run it in optimal conditions for Crack (if possible).
Could i just make the R1 resistor in speedball a bit higher to get it to work?
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No, I mean when you move the volume control 5 degrees or so, you'll likely be near full output on the Crack. In order to run that particular tube with the red LEDs on the socket providing bias, you'll run so little current that you'll be off in the weeds in terms of where the linear operating areas are.
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Gracious, when did the 6F8G get so expensive?
Because they are cheap comparing to these:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/173774749419?ul_noapp=true
Happy Easter! :)
And much cheaper than these rebranded Mullard. (Mullard had never made 6SN7GT tubes).
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-pcs-new-NOS-NIB-6SN7GT-ECC33-CV2821-Mullard-matched-pair-/254196502387?nma=true&si=UDPVVJzJhpzUeUHL000cyhiFdV0%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
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Philips factories did make 6SN7's.
The Philips designation for the 6SN7 is r9x.
In my collection there's a few RCA licensed 6SN7's with Philips / Adzam logo's.
The only EU factory i've found in my Philips 6SN7 collection is Bruxelles r93 Lxx.
So a Mullard labeled 6SN7 can exist.
https://tubedatabase.co/tubes/mullard-6sn7gt-r92
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Philips factories did make 6SN7's.
The Philips designation for the 6SN7 is r9x.
In my collection there's a few RCA licensed 6SN7's with Philips / Adzam logo's.
The only EU factory i've found in my Philips 6SN7 collection is Bruxelles r93 Lxx.
So a Mullard labeled 6SN7 can exist.
https://tubedatabase.co/tubes/mullard-6sn7gt-r92
Very true. Philips/Brimar did make 6SN7/CV1988.
But not Mullard.
All those Mullard 6SN7 are rebranded ones (most of those are Brimar).
The pair sold in the previous link(2 pcs new, NOS NIB 6SN7GT ECC33 CV2821 Mullard matched pair) for $565 are identified as British Tungsram 6SN7GT.
Unfortunately, the bidders might not aware of the origin of those tubes.
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I thought Brimar was a different company (STC->ITT), and not a Philips company.
And that Mullard was a Philips subsidiary?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mullard%E2%80%93Philips_tube_designation
And the ones sold hold a J factory code (Totterham), which was a Mullard site (formerly Tungsram).
https://frank.pocnet.net/other/Philips/PhilipsCodeListAB.pdf
So these are Mullard 6SN7's, i think the seller is correct with this information.
Edit: https://mullard.org/blogs/our-product-manufacturers/tungsram
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I thought Brimar was a different company (STC->ITT), and not a Philips company.
And that Mullard was a Philips subsidiary?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mullard%E2%80%93Philips_tube_designation
And the ones sold hold a J factory code (Totterham), which was a Mullard site (formerly Tungsram).
https://frank.pocnet.net/other/Philips/PhilipsCodeListAB.pdf
So these are Mullard 6SN7's, i think the seller is correct with this information.
Tom, I don't want to argue with you here.
Again, Mullard had never made their own 6SN7GT tubes. Those "Mullard 6SN7GTs" are rebranded ones. If you like Mullards, you should try those GREAT ECCXX tubes.
If you like these British made Tungsram 6SN7GT, you can get these for about $50 (not from me).
Picture here:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sold-matched-pair-of-nos-mullard-6sn7gt-ecc33-brown-base-black-glass-black-plates.513347/
Statement here:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/6sn7-tube-addicts.479031/page-32#post-7020122
markmaxx said: ↑
I had no Idea there were so many different Brimar 6SN7GT..The 6SN7GTY hardly ever come up.
http://cgi.ebay.com/6SN7GT-BRIMAR-BLACK-GLASS-NOS-/260646296312?pt=UK_Consumer_VintageAudio_RL&hash=item3cafbadaf8#ht_500wt_1156
http://cgi.ebay.com/6SN7GT-CV1988-BRIMAR-NOS-/280538144036?pt=UK_Consumer_VintageAudio_RL&hash=item4151605d24#ht_500wt_1156
http://cgi.ebay.com/6SN7GT-BRIMAR-NOS-/260639238170?pt=UK_Consumer_VintageAudio_RL&hash=item3caf4f281a#ht_500wt_1156
Be careful with this ebay seller. I bought a pair of Mullard 6SN7GT that originally he said that they were coded like that because they were made for the USA market. Blackmore identified them as not Mullard but Tungsram so after questioning him he admitted they were Tungsram made for Mullard. What I really believe they were actually Tungsram re-branded by himself as Mullard. I was able to return them and get a full refund. I would make a lot of specific questions before buying any of these Brimar. One thing strange is that the lettering looks very new just like those Mullard I bought.
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Also not here for the argument. With all information gathered. I think everyone could be correct. :P
In my ECC collection i see the same happening over and over again. Blackburn made ECC82 tubes labeled Philips (or Adzam, Valvo) and Mullard labeled ECC82 made in Heerlen, Holland.
Labels of tubes don't tell the whole story. Always look at the tube code. Don't mind the label.
The Totterham problem is explained best in this blog: https://mullard.org/blogs/our-product-manufacturers/tungsram
They have codes J5B and J5D
J = Totterham
5 = July
B and D are 1953 change symbols.
Edit: So these are genuine "Mullard" and could be relabeled from Tungsram factories or foreign import from other factories.
Brimar 6SN7 tubes look distinctly different from Philips'. For this you can look at the way the support rods are fixed to the mica, the build of the mica (without "teeth") etc. I do like the Brimar 6SN7's a lot. Very nice tubes.
Other then Bruxelles, haven't heard other 6SN7's from Philips Europe.
On another note. For the German market and military, Valvo in Hamburg made the 12SX7 (special version 12SN7) but can't find proof of a 6SN7's. From my experience with Valvo tubes, if they made a 6SN7 these could be very very very good performers. Possibly the best sounding SN7's you could buy.
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Yes. Brimar 6SN7 tubes have the rivets like that.
Mine don't have the cooling "wings" and are normal versions.
Had a bit of a "facepalm" moment. As i was writing about the 12SX7 yesterday i remembered that i never actually opened a box of those. So went searching for them in my collection today. And based on the box you could figure it's Valvo made (BUT, it is a USA military box). ALWAYS look at the tube code. And it reads 274 (RCA)... ... .. :o ::)
Another "SN7" thats not EU made. I think these are imported and boxed in Hamburg for European military supply.
My sincere apologies for the misinformation. :-X
https://ep1.pinkbike.org/p5pb17144214/p5pb17144214.jpg (https://ep1.pinkbike.org/p5pb17144214/p5pb17144214.jpg)
https://ep1.pinkbike.org/p5pb17144215/p5pb17144215.jpg (https://ep1.pinkbike.org/p5pb17144215/p5pb17144215.jpg)
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Just one more tube to try and I've reached the peak tube rolling in the Crack. This was so much fun.
Currently running a ECC32 with 470ohm for R1 on speedball.
Can the crack take the BL63 at 1.2A of current? What's another 0.3A between friends?
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The Crack's transformer is designed to provide a maximum of 3.5A from the heater winding.
So even with a 2.4 amp 5998 you'll be at 3.6A which can cause the transformer to overheat and burn out.
Maximum i've used is 3.45A from the heater(with the ECC32 and a 6AS7G).
If you find a 1.2-1.3A output tube that works, you could try the BL63.
Tell us about your experience with the ECC32's?
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The ECC32 is one of my all time favourite tubes in the Crack, Apex Teton and Peak, Woo WA5 and Cavalli liquid glass.
Highly musical, mid range could be perceived as coloured when compared to other tubes and is the highlight. Very smooth overall no grain to speak of, can create a very realistic soundstage with plenty of air.
I'd recommend it with a neutral tube that doesn't emphasise the mid range. GEC 6080 is too warm but GEC 6AS7G/Bendix/5998 are ideal matches.
Low end is not as tight as others say ECC40 and it strikes a good balance between relaxed and aggressive.
With the GEC 6AS7G on a very subjective rating would be ECC32/ECC40 > ECC33/TSRP/13D2 > E80CC/ECC31 > other 6SN7 and 12AU7.
My crack has speedball, film output and last cap in PSU, choke and cree diodes. I wouldn't recommend the ECC32 unless the crack is already maxed out and want a bit more. On just stock crack and speedball the differences between tubes are not as obvious.
Looks like with the BL63 I can only use it for a short session to get an idea of how it sounds. Otherwise I'll have to upgrade to Crackatwoa but I really like the small form factor of the crack and would hesitate to replace it.
Silly question, could I use the Crackatwoa transformer in the crack?
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The ECC32 is one of my all time favourite tubes in the Crack, Apex Teton and Peak, Woo WA5 and Cavalli liquid glass.
Highly musical, mid range could be perceived as coloured when compared to other tubes and is the highlight. Very smooth overall no grain to speak of, can create a very realistic soundstage with plenty of air.
I'd recommend it with a neutral tube that doesn't emphasise the mid range. GEC 6080 is too warm but GEC 6AS7G/Bendix/5998 are ideal matches.
Low end is not as tight as others say ECC40 and it strikes a good balance between relaxed and aggressive.
With the GEC 6AS7G on a very subjective rating would be ECC32/ECC40 > ECC33/TSRP/13D2 > E80CC/ECC31 > other 6SN7 and 12AU7.
My crack has speedball, film output and last cap in PSU, choke and cree diodes. I wouldn't recommend the ECC32 unless the crack is already maxed out and want a bit more. On just stock crack and speedball the differences between tubes are not as obvious.
Looks like with the BL63 I can only use it for a short session to get an idea of how it sounds. Otherwise I'll have to upgrade to Crackatwoa but I really like the small form factor of the crack and would hesitate to replace it.
Silly question, could I use the Crackatwoa transformer in the crack?
Thanks for your review. Good to see another fan of ECC40's. They have a nice sound and i use them a lot.
Even acquired a few new ones last week!
Go for the Crackatwoa. I can see why a shunt regulated powersupply will be a very nice upgrade to the standard Crack. It's on my wishlist aswel.
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Can the crack take the BL63 at 1.2A of current? What's another 0.3A between friends?
That's too much.
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Hi
I have a Question about Replacing the Stock Tubes if one of my Stock Tubes ever get Broken.
My Question is what I have to consider?
I saw the Thread with compatible Tubes for the Crack but If I want to buy one of these Tubes didnt I have to match these Tubes with my Crack Amp?(E.g Bias)
Thanks in Advance
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My Question is what I have to consider?
I saw the Thread with compatible Tubes for the Crack but If I want to buy one of these Tubes didnt I have to match these Tubes with my Crack Amp?(E.g Bias)
You can do a voltage check when you plug in the replacement tubes to be sure everything is as it should be, but otherwise there are no bias adjustments to be made.
-PB
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I have a stock Crack 1.1 w/ Speedball
I'm also buying replacement tubes, but wanted to know if my pairing was all right.
I was looking to buy a couple of JJ ECC82 and Sino 6AS7G. Can these tubes be used with no additional changes to the stock kit?
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I have a stock Crack 1.1 w/ Speedball
I'm also buying replacement tubes, but wanted to know if my pairing was all right.
I was looking to buy a couple of JJ ECC82 and Sino 6AS7G. Can these tubes be used with no additional changes to the stock kit?
https://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=663.0
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Can 6528 tubes be used in Crack (w/ speedball)?
Also what are the 6528-equivalent tubes?
Many thanks.
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Doesn’t seem like you can without some heavy modification. https://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=6215.0
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Indeed heavy mods!
So I guess the PT-3 power transformer in Crack cannot sustain the heavy 5A heater current in 6528.
What about 7802 tubes?
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What about 7802 tubes?
Good luck finding one! Apparently they work just fine though.
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I guess it's very rare so much so that fleabay search just returned none to me.... :o
Never really looked into 7802 yet...how about heater current and gain on 7802?
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The heater current of the 7802 is the same as a 6080. Gain is not really a determining factor for tube substitution in this position.
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Thanks a lot for the answer.
6528 and 7802 are just way too exotic...I gave up ;D
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Good luck with the search!
Here's a quote from some dude that hangs around on this forum from time to time :-X
If I can throw just a little sanity in here -
1) There is no universal best
2) Your best probably isn't my best
3) Price has nothing to do with whether you will like a tube or not. The only person who will always find the most expensive component to sound best simply substitutes a need to show off for having an ear. "Only" is a little misleading here, there are very many of these people. Just go to CES to see large flocks of them.
When the urge to buy the flavor of the week boutique item next strikes my suggestion is to stand back and look at why you decided to DIY. Wasn't it to learn enough to control yourself how your system sounds? Buy a bunch of cheap tubes and learn what kind of differences you can hear. Then form a judgment about what you like and don't care for, and focus your effort on getting there. Try other changes too, and see how much impact they have relative to tube changes. There might be other things that make a lot more difference. Unfortunately this doesn't apply to cans, but I think most of our customers would be better served by learning how to make their listening room sound better than by buying a new boutique capacitor. I also see a lot of guys with expensive headphones and rather mediocre sources. One needs to learn to balance all of these things rather than obsess about one.
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Salute to that dude for his epic insights :)
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Does anyone have experience with DB Tubes? How was it?
Paul B, I'm curious to know your opinion.
I inquired about some tubes since the product page says various manufacturers. He got back a day later over email with some mixed stock and then emailed again right back almost immediately saying he found what I was looking for. I replied saying I was interested and asked how to pay as well as for test scores and pictures. Nothing. So I called and we chatted a bit and we agreed he would send over a PayPal invoice as well as a few pictures of the tube's base. Well, that was 24 hours ago... I don't want to bug the hell outta someone but this is kinda ridiculous.
Curious to know others experience with this seller.
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I've never bought anything from them. A custom order like that which isn't handled by a website shopping cart will take a little extra time, I would encourage patience.
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Noted! Will definitely give it a little more time and see what he comes back with. Although if it takes too much longer guess I'll just move on.
Thanks for your take.
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I think I accidentally deleted my post Re the 6BX7, so here is my recreation:
I am a Crackatwoa owner. I am in the process of purchasing a custom built OTL headphone amplifier than takes 6BX7/6BL7 output tubes. I recently read here in the BH forums that a single 6BX7 could be used in the Crack(atwoa) given it has the same pinout and its plate current/dissipation are low enough to not be "dangerous".
I bought some of these tubes in advance of my custom OTL amplifier arriving and threw one in my Crackatwoa thinking I would check them for noise and maybe they would "make music"...
I was shocked to find that they sounded very, very good in the amplifier, listening with my ZMF headphones (Atticus, Auteur).
I know the driver current is much less than ideal for the 6BX7, but regardless, it sounds excellent in the output position. If there are no negative consequences of using the 6BX7 in a non-optimized circuit, I would recommend giving one a shot. The GE manufactured can be had for ~$10.
DISCLAIMER: from my readings below, not recommended without the Speedball.
Information from the forums I have found:
https://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=2604.0
https://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=663.1335
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Very interesting...can 6BX7/6BL7 output tubes be used in Crack (w/ Speedball)?
BTW, I read somewhere on head-fi that only 6080/6AS7G family tubes are suitable for OTL design due to their low output impedance. So now we have new candidates for OTL, i.e. 6BX7/6BL7? How about 300B tubes in OTL, they should also have low output impedance (can't remember where I read 300B's impedance) ?
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Very interesting...can 6BX7/6BL7 output tubes be used in Crack (w/ Speedball)?
They are close enough that you can plug one in and see.
BTW, I read somewhere on head-fi that only 6080/6AS7G family tubes are suitable for OTL design due to their low output impedance.
That is incorrect.
How about 300B tubes in OTL, they should also have low output impedance (can't remember where I read 300B's impedance) ?
No, a pair of 300Bs would have twice the output impedance (roughly) compared to a 6080 or other similar tube.
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Cool....it seems lots of different tubes can be used in OTL. I guess LD3 OTL uses 6SN7 as power tube, although I think 6SN7 is not so powerful as 6080.
I like more power. If possible, I'd really like to stick a 300B into my Crack w/speedball...lol ;D so that I can try these power hungry bad guys like K1000 or planars. 8)
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BTW, how much watt per channel the Crack (/w speedball) blows into a 300 ohm headphone (like HD650 or HD800)?
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You'd be better off with a Kaiju.
Thats probably more easy as converting Crack for 300b output tubes.
Crack puts out 0.3w into 300ohms i think.
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Cool....it seems lots of different tubes can be used in OTL. I guess LD3 OTL uses 6SN7 as power tube, although I think 6SN7 is not so powerful as 6080.
If one puts feedback around a circuit, a tube like a 6SN7 can be made to work properly.
I like more power. If possible, I'd really like to stick a 300B into my Crack w/speedball...lol ;D so that I can try these power hungry bad guys like K1000 or planars. 8)
300Bs in the Crack circuit would be a poorer choice to drive power hungry headphones, especially low impedance ones.
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I've never bought anything from them. A custom order like that which isn't handled by a website shopping cart will take a little extra time, I would encourage patience.
Update on order from DBTubes in CA. The tube finally arrived on Friday and sounds great in the Crack. Tung Sol 6080 had for 15+10 Shipping to US. Tube is in great shape minus some greenish oxidation on the base. It is super quiet, not microphonic at all. David managed to find this one loner laying around in his stock.
I will say, I did not place an order directly from his website so I cannot speak to that experience, but this was one of the lesser experiences I've had in terms of seller communication. I had to reach out by phone every time to follow up and make sure my order was shipped as I didn't get confirmation after payment. I am glad it arrived in good shape the literal day before they went on a month long vacation. Probably wouldn't buy from again in that capacity.
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So I read something on the forums in passing about Chinese fakes. It got me a little paranoid about a Mullard cv4003 I picked up from eBay a couple months back from a seller in Taiwan that has quite a large stock of these claimed NOS Mullard M8136 tubes. I picked one up thinking I got a great deal and noted how remarkable the packaging was for an older tube. Here is the listing: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mullard-ECC802S-M8136-12AU7WA-ECC82-box-plate-small-shield-UK-made-TUBE-VALVE/173814424654
Can anyone with more experience in these matters offer up their take on this? Do you think I've been had? I can upload more detailed pics of the tube and packaging if anyone asks.
Just seems a little too clean now that I think about it.
Thanks
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Not saying those are genuine because I also don't know, but I've gotten some pretty clean NOS tube boxes. Maybe I've been had, too?
Off topic: I picked up the adapter to use a 6SN7 tube and a NOS Sovtek 6H8C and rolled that in today. Sounds pretty good! Not sure that it sounds appreciably better than the Motorola 12AU7 it replaced, but it's nice to know it works and gives me more rolling options.
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https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mullard-ECC802S-M8136-12AU7WA-ECC82-box-plate-small-shield-UK-made-TUBE-VALVE/173814424654
Those are the real deal.
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Those are the real deal.
Well that's good to know. Thanks for weighing in PB. I gave it a once over when I got home and it seems legit. My mind is at ease.
Here is the actual website in case anyone is interested
http://tubes.tw/shop/index.php?cPath=22_27&sort=3a&filter_id=14
They have a boat load of different 12AU7 brands and date codes. Not sure how much shipping costs from their web store, but prices seem to be cheaper than their eBay store.
The exact one I purchased from eBay is listed for $48
The picture I attached I found on Google. Apparently it lives somewhere on their site. Shows the differences between the CV4003 through the years. Very interesting.
Note this is the same seller that lists the French Thomson CSF 6080WA that was linked to a couple of pages back. They have a HUGE stock of those.
http://tubes.tw/shop/product_info.php?products_id=1279
Definitely worth checking out at those prices. I will probably grab one myself at some point.
Sorry for the lengthy post. I hope someone finds it useful one day!
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If one puts feedback around a circuit, a tube like a 6SN7 can be made to work properly.
300Bs in the Crack circuit would be a poorer choice to drive power hungry headphones, especially low impedance ones.
You'd be better off with a Kaiju.
Thats probably more easy as converting Crack for 300b output tubes.
Crack puts out 0.3w into 300ohms i think.
Thanks a lot, PB and Tom!
I was just kidding for sticking a 300B into Crack. It requires heavy modding...way too much for me. ;D
On the other hand, I would love to see Bottlehead to add a headphone jack to their 300B or 2A3 speaker amps if possible. It will definitely increase the amps' use and hence increase sale volumes. You know, Woo's 300B amp WA5 can be used for both headphone and speaker, and lots of other 300B amps too. :)
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One more question:
I am comparing 2 headphones recently. So I am wondering whether it's okay to plug & unplug headphones into my Crack without having to turn it off?
Currently I turned off my Crack before switching headphones, because I was concerned that the metal part on headphone plug would bridge 2 adjacent sections inside the headphone jack on Crack and would possibly short Crack circuits during plugging or unplugging.
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There's no problem switching headphones with the amp on.
I always plug in my headphones after the amp has warmed up (essentially the same as changing headphones).
This because i roll a different tube almost every day, and before i had a tube tester (to check for internal shorts) i've seen some spark shows during tube warmup.
Edit: Just make a 4 banana/spade to 4 pin XLR adapter. That's what i use for the AKG K1000 headphone and works just fine for now. But i do see your point about the extra headphone connection.
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On the other hand, I would love to see Bottlehead to add a headphone jack to their 300B or 2A3 speaker amps if possible.
You can do this with an adapter cable. This isn't a good idea unless the DC filament upgrade is added to our directly heated amps.
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There's no problem switching headphones with the amp on.
I always plug in my headphones after the amp has warmed up (essentially the same as changing headphones).
This because i roll a different tube almost every day, and before i had a tube tester (to check for internal shorts) i've seen some spark shows during tube warmup.
Edit: Just make a 4 banana/spade to 4 pin XLR adapter. That's what i use for the AKG K1000 headphone and works just fine for now. But i do see your point about the extra headphone connection.
Greart to hear. Thank you very much, Tom!
That would make switching headphones much easier.
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You can do this with an adapter cable. This isn't a good idea unless the DC filament upgrade is added to our directly heated amps.
You are correct, that's why it's hard for users to heavily mod their amps.
I still think it is a good idea to have some official Bottlehead 2A3/300B/845 amps with both headphone and speaker outputs.
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I still think it is a good idea to have some official Bottlehead 2A3/300B/845 amps with both headphone and speaker outputs.
Well, we have the SEX amp. It's significantly quieter than we could make a 2A3/300B/845 amp and it has speaker and headphone outputs.
If we put a hole on the Kaiju plate for a headphone jack, then filled it with a plug for the stock kit, we would end up answering the same technical support question over and over again about why the stock amp is noisy on headphones when builders put the jack in without the DC filament board. I would also want to make it so that the speakers switch off when headphones are plugged in, and that is a significant amount of work as a retrofit item. We would then be in the awkward position where our majority of users who use these amps with speakers would be on here asking us why there was a headphone jack. There are also what 2 or 3 pairs of headphones that could make use of 8W?
We could certainly make an adapter cable with banana plugs on one end and a 4 pin XLR on the other. Or you could check these out:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dyson-Audio-4-pin-XLR-to-Spade-Balanced-Headphone-Cable-Speaker-Tap-Adapter/113437046309?hash=item1a695ff625:g:4jIAAOSwkfxcDXXf (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dyson-Audio-4-pin-XLR-to-Spade-Balanced-Headphone-Cable-Speaker-Tap-Adapter/113437046309?hash=item1a695ff625:g:4jIAAOSwkfxcDXXf)
https://www.portentoaudio.it/en/prodotto/adattatore-xlr-4-pin-banana/ (https://www.portentoaudio.it/en/prodotto/adattatore-xlr-4-pin-banana/)
http://apuresound.com/v3haec.html (http://apuresound.com/v3haec.html)
You could also drill a hole in the wood on the Kaiju or Stereomour and install your own headphone jack.
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Ahhh...I saw the challenges making a 2A3/300B/845 headphone amp. :o
Thanks very much for the explanation and alternative solutions, PB! :)
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With the appropriate adapter, what would be the feasibility of using a shared cathode 6N7G/6N7GT tube in the Crack + SB (or Crackatwoa in my case)? Would it be safe to throw in and give it a whirl despite being incorrectly biased?
https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/127/6/6N7.pdf
Wish I had the knowledge to say, I am slowly but surely teaching myself. I can see the plate dissipation is double that of a 6SN7, so it seems that should not be an issue.
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With the appropriate adapter, what would be the feasibility of using a shared cathode 6N7G/6N7GT tube in the Crack + SB (or Crackatwoa in my case)? Would it be safe to throw in and give it a whirl despite being incorrectly biased?
https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/127/6/6N7.pdf
You would have to use two 6N7s. 15mA and 80V or so of plate to cathode voltage on a 6N7 will give a grid bias voltage of about +10V, which will cause the grid of the 6N7 to draw significant current. This grid current will throw the operating point of the circuit off significantly! This might pass music through, but it will be badly distorted and you'd damage the 6N7 eventually. You'd also raise the output impedance by about 50%.
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You would have to use two 6N7s. 15mA and 80V or so of plate to cathode voltage on a 6N7 will give a grid bias voltage of about +10V, which will cause the grid of the 6N7 to draw significant current. This grid current will throw the operating point of the circuit off significantly! This might pass music through, but it will be badly distorted and you'd damage the 6N7 eventually. You'd also raise the output impedance by about 50%.
Okay, so I am going to take that as a hard NO, ha! Thanks, PB. I hope to get to a point where I can make that determination on my own, not a lot of spare time to do so, unfortunately. But I do know that a positive voltage on the grid is no bueno.
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Wish I knew how to determine this on my own, but is there any reason putting a Mullard ECC32 in the stock Crackatwoa would be harmful to the amp or the tube? I would be using a 6SN7 to 12AU7 adapter. I typically use 6SN7s but I know the ECC32 is not a direct equivalent. Thanks!
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If my recollection is correct. With Crack the ECC32 bias will set correctly, with the 475R R1 resistor on the CCS board.
Voltages will be high with the 237R R1 resistor. Plug one in, and measure after 5-10 minutes of warmup.
I'm a happy camper with these tubes. Although i feel money is better saved for a Mainline.
With all this tube rolling. I keep coming back to 12BH7's.
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If my recollection is correct. With Crack the ECC32 bias will set correctly, with the 475R R1 resistor on the CCS board.
Voltages will be high with the 237R R1 resistor. Plug one in, and measure after 5-10 minutes of warmup.
I'm a happy camper with these tubes. Although i feel money is better saved for a Mainline.
With all this tube rolling. I keep coming back to 12BH7's.
Thanks, Tom, I'll look into it. I really enjoy the 12BH7 as well. I recently acquired a pair of Italian Fivre 12BH7 tubes, they sound fantastic.
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I'll be buying a Crackatwoa in the not-too-distant future and am thinking about suitable tubes.
When I owned the Crack I went nuts on tube buying - WE421A, GEC 6AS7G, Amperex 7316 etc. I've learned from my misspent youth and am buying many fewer and much, much cheaper tubes based around a theme: Australian made.
Is anyone aware of an Australian made candidate for the output position?
Hi Toad - saw your post on HF as well. I have never seen an Australian-made 6080 or 6AS7G, no output tube compatible with the Crack actually. I have seen some 6SN7s floating around that could be used as inputs. Unfortunately, what you had before are truly the best! But prices are only going up and availability going down. There are of course good sounding outputs for not a whole lot of money, like the Tung Sol 7236 or RCA 6AS7G black plate. If you can find them, there are some very good Japanese 6AS7G tubes out there for very little money, usually.
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Wish I knew how to determine this on my own, but is there any reason putting a Mullard ECC32 in the stock Crackatwoa would be harmful to the amp or the tube? I would be using a 6SN7 to 12AU7 adapter. I typically use 6SN7s but I know the ECC32 is not a direct equivalent. Thanks!
Please ignore...my bad....ECC32 instead of ECC82....I thought you were asking about ECC82 which is an European version of 12AU7.
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Hi Tom, do you know the difference between Russian 6H13C and 6H5C?
I bought some 6H13Cs and they work great in my Crack w/SB. So I want to try out some 6H5C, but not sure if they would work in my Crack.
I heard 6H5C is the military version of 6H13C, so they should have the same parameters except for some ruggedization, is that correct?
Thanks.
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I bought some 6H13Cs and they work great in my Crack w/SB. So I want to try out some 6H5C, but not sure if they would work in my Crack.
The 6H5C will work fine, however I really did not care for the sound of them with my limited sample, The 6H13C was much better.
I bought them with the same thinking as you, however the 6H5C sits in a box, at least they are cheap.
I heard 6H5C is the military version of 6H13C, so they should have the same parameters except for some ruggedization, is that correct?
It's not that simple, they are different tubes despite looking the same. I know zero cyrillic but the datasheets look very different.
http://gstube.com/data/581/
http://gstube.com/data/2948/
Thanks.
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Super, thank you very much! You saved us all. :)
For those interested in Russian 6AS7Gs, go for 6H13C instead of 6H5C as per @mudvin.
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Super, thank you very much! You saved us all. :)
For those interested in Russian 6AS7Gs, go for 6H13C instead of 6H5C as per @mudvin.
I don't see a reason why you couldn't use the 6H5C.
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So Many Tubes, So Little Time ;D
...need to try out other tubes first :P
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So many tubes, so little time... ...that is so right.
I've used/enjoyed my stock Crack+Speedball enough, seen enough, rolled enough tubes through it to have a good handle on the tube families (I've been using the 12AU7 forever and ever and I'm getting conversant in the 6080/6AS7G family) and what I enjoy in the Crack/Massdrop Senn HD6XX combo. Lots of stuff/tube complements/combos sound very good. I love the SEDs, both the 6H13S and the 6H5S, and especially the latter. The SEDs are well made, test well, look nice, sound great - oh, and they're quite inexpensive, even with shipping included in the cost. Both have been outstanding to my ears, paired with a Japanese TEN Kobe Kogyo 12AU7 cleartop. All of the few and different TEN 12AU7s I have also sound great. I used to love the SED 6550C.
The Sylvania 6080WA and Tung Sol 6080WA have also been fabulous.
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On the subject of tube rolling. A recommendation for cheap tubes that sound really good!
You can often find a pair of these for 10€, only need an adapter.
Time for another tube family to try in Crack!
The Dull Emitter Transmitter 20 or DET20.
Also known as CV6, E1148, 7193, CV3601, 2C22, VR135, CV1135, NR80, CV2920, VT252 and by some other names. It had many!
Back in the 1900’/10’s, the first tubes were developed (Fleming diode -> R triode). You had bright emitters, those were the early tubes that could function as a light bulb because of the pure Tungsten filaments. Later-on came the dull emitters, you’ve guessed it, not so much of a light source and far more economic for use with a battery, as was common in the 1920’s.
This Dull Emitter name since stuck a bit in England. So when de E1148 prototype was released in the USA for UHF use, the British had to get their counterpart. These tubes go by various names and have one thing in common, both anode and grid are connected via top caps. Starting out as the 6J5 (a 12AU7 predecessor), i guess this family was developed with the prevention of oscillations at high frequencies in mind. This tube (named military Common Valve 6) played a major role in military equipement during WWII. DET20 was the name given to civil versions of this tube, sold by the Marconi company, but picked from both the GEC as Mullard production line.
Being so close to the 6J5 (6SN7/12AU7), these make for a perfect fit in our beloved OTL headphone amps. Maybe even with some extra special “sparkling highs†(Because VHF tube, haha, bad joke... .... ).
https://ep1.pinkbike.org/p5pb17858503/p5pb17858503.jpg (https://ep1.pinkbike.org/p5pb17858503/p5pb17858503.jpg)
Top: E1148 (Hytron) and 7193 (Ken Rad)
Bottom: CV6 (Mitcham) and CV6 (Hammersmith)
The E1148 then is a one of the first in this family and was build in the USA and Hytron branded tube. It has it’s inners mounted horizontally. It’s British and other American relatives show a normal vertical construction. Here’s an example from a 1942 group of this type. As you see, these all show a pan getter. Later versions show a different mica construction over that getter of no getter? I might have to break one to find out exactly.
In the CV6 type, tubes can be found from various factories and most of them were Mullards made in Mitcham (D) or Blackburn (A). My only Marconi tube looks exactly the same as the CV6’s from the Mullard line. I can’t spot any difference in internal structure. The plates of these area smaller then 6J5’s and charcoaled black for better heat radiating performance being welded together.
The 7193 is the American sibling, with the same construction/look as a 6J5 metal base (the normal ribbed plates), but with the same top-caps. They are fysically smaller compared to the EU counterparts and E1148 predecessors. In 7193’s there’s 2 versions i’ve seen. The Ken-rad, distinguischable via the top mica spacer from the National Union version (round mica).
When using these, please take extra care for the correct position of both the anode cap and grid cap!! Don’t ever swap them! Mishaps possibly harm the tube and your amplifier.
Always look up the datasheet before putting them in your amp to check both the parameters and connections. Then put the guide-pin correctly in the socket. After that you place the top caps according to the datasheet. Before power-on, visually double-check if the datasheet is correct for your tube (just look trough the glass and follow each connection).
Because i couldn’t find any datasheet on the E1148 (only the mention of it in the CV6 datasheet), i played around with it a bit longer before amplifier testing. For this, "used" specimens from 1942-1944 era were tested. All tests were done with 250V anode, -5,5v grid and show +- 8,2Kohm plate resistance, amplification factor 21, mutual conductance 2,5-3 ma/V with 13-15ma output. So close enough to CV6 (and same pinout) for the use of that same datasheet (+-NOS). So, these tubes are interchangeable and very usable as driver in Crack!
https://ep1.pinkbike.org/p5pb17858501/p5pb17858501.jpg (https://ep1.pinkbike.org/p5pb17858501/p5pb17858501.jpg)
Picture: Test setup E1148.
CV6 datasheet: http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/cv6.pdf (http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/cv6.pdf)
On page 3, mounting position is specified.
Note that the E1148’s and CV6’s in my collection all share the same mounting positions.
7193 datasheet: http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/2c22.pdf (http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/2c22.pdf)
On page 2, mounting position is specified.
Note the differences!
Oh. Sound!
These are very, very, very good sounding tubes. These add layers and layers of texture to the music bringing out soooooo many details. Wow, just wow. I’ve got tons of tubes to choose from for my Crack, and these enter the top-10 out of nowhere. This makes me want to explore more odd-ball UHF over-constructed tubes with the right specs.
I’ve tried 6 or 7 pairs by now in my Crack and none have been microphonic or problematic with interference due to long wires. All test strong and perform even better!
For the money this family is impossible to beat! You can find a pair for 25€ or less and i found a “made in China†adapter for 25€ that is performing perfectly.
It’s more worthwhile buying a pair of these with an adapter vs any 6SN7/12AU7 that goes for the same price. In the states the 7193 Ken Rad would be the one i’d recommend. In Europe the CV6’s can be found at bigger retailers, for very convenient prices (a few Euro/pound each) but you have to ask for supply (as nobody uses them). My personal favorite is the Mitcham factory CV6.
https://ep1.pinkbike.org/p5pb17858502/p5pb17858502.jpg (https://ep1.pinkbike.org/p5pb17858502/p5pb17858502.jpg)
Picture: Kings of the bunch, the Mitcham CV6. Used with Bendix 6080 driving AKG K340 electret/dynamic headphones. Yes, i still need to rework the adapter and rotate it 90 degrees.
All-in-all these tubes sound so good that i’m planning on researching further developments of the UHF group for a next, completely nuts, tube adventure!
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It's funny, the 2C22 used to be that really inexpensive tube that nobody wanted, but now I see them for more than a comparable old stock 6SN7!
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A newbie question regarding the 12AU7 heater voltage in Crack and its adapters:
12AU7 sounds like a 12V heater voltage tube to me, so why a 6V heater 6SN7 can be used in place of 12AU7?
Instead of 6SN7 I think the 12V heater 12SN7 should be the correct one to replace 12AU7, same 12V heater voltage, and so we can use a 12SN7-to-12AU7 adapter, am I correct?
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The 12AU7 has a center-tapped heater which can be wired for either 6 or 12 volts.
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Cool, I was looking at some docs on 12AU7, and find 12AU7 indeed can run 6.3V in parallel and 12.6V in series.
From the pinout chart I find pin 4 and pin 5 are used as heater input, and pin 9 is ground for both heaters.
So in Crack we have 6.3V on pin 4 and another 6.3V on pin 5, and pin 9 is connected to ground, is that correct?
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And when we use a 6SN7-to-12AU7 adapter for Crack, does the adapter combine pin 4 and pin 5 on 12AU7 to a single input and link it to the pin 7 or pin 8 on 6SN7, or does it pick only one input from either pin 4 or pin 5 on 12AU7 and link it to the pin 7 or pin 8 on 6SN7?
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From the pinout chart I find pin 4 and pin 5 are used as heater input, and pin 9 is ground for both heaters.
Pin 4 to pin 9 is one 6V heater. Pin 5 to pin 9 is another 6V heater.
So in Crack we have 6.3V on pin 4 and another 6.3V on pin 5, and pin 9 is connected to ground, is that correct?
Ground isn't really part of this conversation. This is just a series (12V) or parallel (6V) arrangement of two heaters. Pins 4 and 5 are connected together to put the two 6V heaters in parallel, then 6V AC is applied between pin 9 and pins 4/5.
-PB
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does the adapter combine pin 4 and pin 5 on 12AU7 to a single input and link it to the pin 7 or pin 8 on 6SN7, or does it pick only one input from either pin 4 or pin 5 on 12AU7 and link it to the pin 7 or pin 8 on 6SN7?
It could go either way.
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Great, thank you very much for explaining the pins on 12AU7, PB! :)
Now I can understand why a 6V 6SN7 can work in a 12AU7 socket (sounds like 12V from its name, but actually it can be either 6V or 12V depending on wiring).
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Hello You all !!!
Definitely very happy to be able to join this group after years and years of readings but most of all being able to own "the beast"!!!!
As a Euro listener it wasn't that easy to get it( 10 years ....), but now i proudly have a crack with SB and lots of good mods. Of course my cans are HD 650 with an Alo green cable (possibility of switching the terminations) .i did add an high End power cable as a Audiquest NRG 5 and Qued silver RCA cable.
I received my unit with 6080 WC Phillips EGC and GE 12 AU7, but after few first listening sessions, i became very disappointed because of the lack of .........everything :( >:(. No magical appears ......flat; dull; mushy , thin , so i confess i was devastated!!! :'(
So i managed to start tube replacement or rolling and had the chance ( i primarily thought..) to find Nos Telefunken set for input and outpout tubes .
The sound was completely different but very harsh and hard to listen to..............very mid centric even with a bettered sound stage , but with no life ....lean sound with nice details and vocals but no foot tapping; not engaging after ( to 10 minutes i stated to get tired of the sound !!!! wow what did i miss?
so i tried to split the combos and made a session with Telefunken 12 Au7 and Phillips 6080 , things calm down a bit , but lack of impact and seems a little bit foggy.......!
So i'm asking you ; the "gods of the Crack" to help me out a bit and try to find the right combos with all the experimentations you all guys made the last ten or fifteen years !!!!!!
Knowing i had the chance to find a RARE set of Nib Nos Telefunken (west germany from the 50's) found with luck by one of my friend in a closet in the garage ( 8) ) ; owned by his grand pa ; i went thru tons of pages on different forums, but cant find the top pairing with these 2;
i really like the 12au 7 precision and details and would like to try to find an outpout tube that can handle it ;something maybe more organic, rugged ; but with a good impact on bass slam, speed and as refined ........ i guess i m a fool ???
or try to find a perfect matching input tube to the telefunken 6080 but as it is a rare and sough after tube , i couldn't find anyone or read anything on some one who tried a special combo on our beloved Crack .
Thank you so much for your help and support and hope it's not a too big pain in the a...to understand my poor English !!!!
thanks to the community .
Zarno
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I would recommend reheating all of the solder joints in the amp before you go much further. What you're describing is how I would describe an amp with a few cold joints. The music will still come out, but it certainly doesn't sound right!
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The standard HD650 cable is fine and makes a good standard reference. I bought my HD600 used and it came with a decidedly expensive East European cable as an extra. It has loads of definition but is balanced very much towards the high frequencies. Reading that the 650 cable was a good value upgrade from the 600 one I bought one and have been pleased with the result. Your green cable might be giving you a similar altered frequency result to my fancy one so best for you to use the 650 one for tube rolling at the moment IMO. Mine came with a RCA 6080 which I like and I'm using it with a 4003 which I just happened to have. A good combo for me. I also have 2 versions of the 6AS7 that sound "OK" but both have issues, the Sylvania one is ultra microphonic and the other one Brimar(?) tends to "sing" a bit one channel. You can only hear that when there is no input signal so not that significant until you wear the cans for a while with nothing playing. Food for thought?
PB's comment posted while I was writing this. Good advice.
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... i proudly have a crack with SB and lots of good mods.
Hi Zarno - a couple of questions:
(1) Did you build it yourself or buy it already built?
(2) What mods, in addition to the SB, does your Crack have?
cheers, Derek
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@ Zarno.
Follow PB's advice first. Even with GE's it should sound right. Or these were bad tubes, could be.
Finding real Telefunken 6080's will be extremely difficult. It is a very popular fake, be very careful. And the bass is lacking i.m.e.. I'd put my money on a GEC 6080 instead (found for +-50€ from the UK).
Here's a post of myself on another forum:
Tonight i've had a first few hours with a Telefunken 6080WA output tube. A tube i previously thought off as non-existent with only fakes on the market.
Bought it by chance, as is. Tested it >100% NOS, lucky me!
Telefunken only produced +- 27.000 6080's and 9.000 6080WA's (i have a 1965 6080WA).
For comparison, the rare and wanted ECC803s almost 150.000 pcs. The 6080WA is as rare as the EC8020.
The cheap ones found on ebay and other websites are mostly Telefunken faked GE / RCA / Thomson (France) tubes (the last ones sound good aswel!).
Read about the fakes here https://jacmusic.com/nos/images/Fakes/
Never read about these on this forum nor found a review. So it was a gamble for me.
How does it sound? Clear, open, detailed. It's just turning up the typical Telefunken sound another notch.
It's a tube to look out for! Definitely! And you can easily identify them by build (see Jac).
The tubes.rs ones are the real ones.
A word on the Telefunken 6080WA sound. After a few evenings of listening i can't get it to sound optimal. It has the typical Telefunken sound but lacks in lower end (extension).
This makes it an awesome tube, but only for those wanting to make their system as detailed as possible. I prefer the Bendix/GEC type 6080 sound.
A picture on the night stand, with a Heerlen E80CC to fatten up the sound without losing quality.https://ep1.pinkbike.org/p5pb17821429/p5pb17821429.jpg (https://ep1.pinkbike.org/p5pb17821429/p5pb17821429.jpg)
For output tubes, my recommendation would be a Svetlana 6H13C with your Telefunken driver (nice coke bottle).
You can find these on E.ay.
Edit: O, you own Telefunken 6080's wow! Want to trade for a few driver tubes? ;)
But my advice on that one would be, DONT! ;)
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The Thompson/RT French made 6080s have been sitting well with me lately, maybe even more than the 5998.
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wow ......thank you so much guys for your explanations................ i m on my bottom!!!
i ll come to you in few hours with pics and writings..........as usual some very good but also bad facts.
i wish you all a good wake up ....
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I would recommend reheating all of the solder joints in the amp before you go much further. What you're describing is how I would describe an amp with a few cold joints. The music will still come out, but it certainly doesn't sound right!
thank you Paul for your highlight.........!!! i didn't know this was possible . is there any particular one i should try first ?...or for sure have to re-do all of them :-[ :-[ :-[
i will later post few pics of the bottom as i will also do for the TFK tubes.
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The standard HD650 cable is fine and makes a good standard reference. I bought my HD600 used and it came with a decidedly expensive East European cable as an extra. It has loads of definition but is balanced very much towards the high frequencies. Reading that the 650 cable was a good value upgrade from the 600 one I bought one and have been pleased with the result. Your green cable might be giving you a similar altered frequency result to my fancy one so best for you to use the 650 one for tube rolling at the moment IMO. Mine came with a RCA 6080 which I like and I'm using it with a 4003 which I just happened to have. A good combo for me. I also have 2 versions of the 6AS7 that sound "OK" but both have issues, the Sylvania one is ultra microphonic and the other one Brimar(?) tends to "sing" a bit one channel. You can only hear that when there is no input signal so not that significant until you wear the cans for a while with nothing playing. Food for thought?
PB's comment posted while I was writing this. Good advice.
Hello Deluk !
sorry i forgot to mention that for all my initial tube test , i use the HD 650 with the stock cable and regarding this would you be kind to tell me if there is a way to correctly set it back to the headphones (only one way to insert the plug??? not easy to say that in french translation =Keyed?) i mean when you look at the outside of the HD 650 , are you able to see the letters R or L on the plugs ???? or it should be on the ears side ?
I say that because since i install the stock cable back ; i hear a lot of scratches and weir noises when i move the head :-\ :-\ :-X
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Hi Zarno - a couple of questions:
(1) Did you build it yourself or buy it already built?
(2) What mods, in addition to the SB, does your Crack have?
cheers, Derek
thanks Deke609 for the questions !
Unfortunately i didn 't build the Crack myself as i was living in Indonesia and just got back to Paris , and from indonesia the Bottlehead Crack site and forum was "ban" with my IP , so i was note able to make any orders...... so i had to do differently and finally found a young Canadian student in electronics who proposed himself to buy it for me and also build as he already did for 2 units.
So i had a chance to increase and choose the level of mods :
I have teflon sockets with gold pins
aluminium volume knob with step up attenuator
rhodium rca sockets and ......
uhhh forgot the rest ! but not sure at all any caps ???? :-\ ::) while i did order it ; i move out of indonesia and got my computer stolen with all writings concerning internal modifications...... i m ashamed not to answer more precisely.....and of course the guy is not answering anymore .......
and i have to be honest , its out of my reach to build such a thing , ironing for me was 35 years ago !!!!! ;D :D
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@ Zarno.
Follow PB's advice first. Even with GE's it should sound right. Or these were bad tubes, could be.
Finding real Telefunken 6080's will be extremely difficult. It is a very popular fake, be very careful. And the bass is lacking i.m.e.. I'd put my money on a GEC 6080 instead (found for +-50€ from the UK).
Here's a post of myself on another forum:
For output tubes, my recommendation would be a Svetlana 6H13C with your Telefunken driver (nice coke bottle).
You can find these on E.ay.
Edit: O, you own Telefunken 6080's wow! Want to trade for a few driver tubes? ;)
But my advice on that one would be, DONT! ;)
Hello Tom s
i confess you scared me so much this morning while reading the incredible post you enclosed ; i had to quit eating my breakfast !!! lol
but i have to say ........i might have an incredible luck for these tubes ;) :) ;D i will enclosed fw pictures i have made this am and will wait for your confirmation but reading all the warnings and the ways to make detection of a fake , i think i can dance and scream loud saying i have a true and original almost new Telefunken 6080 8) :P :o
same for the 12 AU7 ..........there s nothing on it at all except strange paint on the very tip .............................AND a diamond with positive edges ;) but i might be not very good with macro pictures and need to clarify this !!!!
thank you so much for the quality of your article and sorry if its not allowed here , i won 't do it no more.... but Fuck the fakers!!!
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Hi Zarno -
Another suggestion and a thought.
Suggestion: can you take some clear photos of the wiring and post them on the forum?
Thought: some of what you are hearing (and not liking) might be explained if you had the electrolytic output capacitors replaced with film capacitors. Film caps can take a while to "burn in". In my various experiments with film caps, I've found that at first listen the treble can be a bit harsh and the bass is often muted and mushy. With extended use, the treble is usually the first to get better, with punchy and clear bass being the last thing develop (taking as long as 100 hrs with some of my caps). The capacitance value of the caps can also affect the sound - for example, if you replaced the output caps with much smaller value film caps.
cheers, Derek
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Derek
yes for sure !!!!! i m about to !!! and my crack doesnt even have 20 hours i guess !!!
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@ Paul
yes it should be easy for me to find such tube !!!! heard a lot about it lately ....... i m not so far from the old factory!!!!! Thomson or La radiotechnique is the same so ??? what kind of driver tube do you use for this nice sounding combo??
but people are crazy here about since a very little time ; can t find one for less than 60 euros !!!
same as Tom's says ....i ve been looking for a GEC put people are asking me 100 bucks ,grrrr
one of my friend can sell me an RCA 6AS7 G for 40 and a Mullard uk for 100 ??
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is there any particular one i should try first ?...or for sure have to re-do all of them :-[ :-[ :-[
There aren't that many solder joints in the amp. I can reheat and reflow all the joints in a Crack in about ten minutes.
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Tubes.....
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Sorry...i encounter problems to upload my pics.... I'm gonna check the rules..
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try resizing them so they are smaller files.
cheers, Derek
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Derek;
do you know the correct size for posting ?? my pics are around 2 to 3 mb ....
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i was also thinking of the way of the phase ???is this important for this amp??
i ve seen the big difference here in Europe with this issue on my HE hifi system .....bought a furutech TP E 80 and could see the difference when inverting the phase ..........
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... the HD 650 with the stock cable and regarding this would you be kind to tell me if there is a way to correctly set it back to the headphones (only one way to insert the plug??? not easy to say that in french translation =Keyed?) ....
If you look closely at the pins, you will see that one is larger than the other. You should be able to see that one hole in the headphone is larger that the other and line them up correctly that way. I could be wrong, but I think the small pin is forward on the right side and the large pin is forward on the left side. The pins will only insert easily in one orientation - don't try and force them in. Keep switching the orientation until they insert easily.
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Derek;
do you know the correct size for posting ?? my pics are around 2 to 3 mb ....
I resize to less than 2 MB - typically to less than 1.
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6080
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it works !!!!
so i ll do pics of the bottom plaque ....
can you see it correctly?
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Congrats, the picture can be seen and that's a real Telefunken 6080! :o
And just to make you aware. There's a modify message button on right top corner of every message.
This can be used to add information (that you forgot) to your last message. In such a way you don't have to post a new one every five minutes.
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I'm sure you have your 650 cable sorted now but the L & R on the plugs will always be on the outside matching the similar ones at the top of the earpiece on the headband when plugged in correctly. Yes the pins are different sizes so will only fit one way.
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Congrats, the picture can be seen and that's a real Telefunken 6080! :o
And just to make you aware. There's a modify message button on right top corner of every message.
This can be used to add information (that you forgot) to your last message. In such a way you don't have to post a new one every five minutes.
How can you tell it’s genuine out of curiosity? I just received two that were allegedly NOS but I’m skeptical.
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There's part you can learn from Jac: https://jacmusic.com/nos/images/Fakes/
For me it's the internal construction i always look at with all tubes.
Here's a few links with relabeled ones:
This first one is a GE i think: https://www.watfordvalves.com/product_detail.asp?id=4700
These are RCA: https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/pict/143378485358_/Telefunken-6080-Verst%C3%A4rker-Gleichrichter-Regel-R%C3%B6hren.jpg
This is a Russian 6H5/13C: https://www.frihu.com/images/ngg_featured/telefunken_6as7g.jpg
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There's part you can learn from Jac: https://jacmusic.com/nos/images/Fakes/
For me it's the internal construction i always look at with all tubes.
Here's a few links with relabeled ones:
This first one is a GE i think: https://www.watfordvalves.com/product_detail.asp?id=4700
These are RCA: https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/pict/143378485358_/Telefunken-6080-Verst%C3%A4rker-Gleichrichter-Regel-R%C3%B6hren.jpg
This is a Russian 6H5/13C: https://www.frihu.com/images/ngg_featured/telefunken_6as7g.jpg
Using the sophisticated methods of "reading the eBay listing" and triangulating that with the links you posted I determined I did, in fact, buy TFK branded GE valves. So I got what I paid for.
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Be careful paying for tubes.
My best recommendation price/performance for Crack output tubes (for those who wish to do tube rolling) would be
1. Svetlana 6H13C (comes with OTK stamp, winged C, blabla) from Russia (large soundstage, mellow everything, good tone).
2. Thomson CSF France 6080WA (large soundstage, more details, even better tone, less bass as the above).
Both are +- 15€ online.
For input tubes with the speedball i'd go with the Tungsram E80CC (best paired with 6H13C) (found for +- 20€ online) NOS as a first tube rolling option with a definite improvement over most 12AU7's.
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I paid about $15 per tube, so I don't feel too salty. They were transparent about what they were, I just didn't read too closely. I needed a new 6080 and the price was right ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Thank you guys for your adequate help!!!
So I did re plug my headset correctly....still scratches when sometimes I touch the plugs!!!!
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Tfk "positive" diamond on the 12au7.....
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Bottom plaque.........
I need to sort out the cold joints problem!!!!
Any other advice of people using combos with telefunken NOS genuine tubes :D???
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You're also missing some wiring on your headphone jack.
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Ok Paul...can you tell me more about what to do??
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Refer to the manual that came with your kit and the section about wiring up the headphone jack.
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Page 44 has a section on output wiring. You should have connections on each of the headphone jack's lugs. You might want to create a new thread about it so it doesn't get lost in the shuffle of a long thread about tube rolling.
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So I did re plug my headset correctly....still scratches when sometimes I touch the plugs!!!!
If you did force the plugs in incorrectly, you may have damaged/spread the socket for the small pin. I think this could result in a poor connection for the small pin and could give you the scratchy noise. I would try using the headphones on another device to see if that is the issue.
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On the recommendation of this thread I got a pair of Thomson 6080WAs and that, paired with a Mullard CV4003, is my new favorite pairing for this amp.
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thanks to all of you !!!
enjoy your music.....
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Can I just double check that it is okay to use an E80CC with a Crack with the Speedball installed? I dont need to make any other modifications?
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There is a value change for R1 on the small PC board up front for the E80CC. I am remembering that 470 ohms is a good choice for that position.
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Here's the thread about optimizing the current flow with E80CC / 12BH7's in Crack.
U can use the E80CC without this mod, but it does sound better with the mod.
https://forum.bottlehead.com/index.php?topic=5989.0
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Any tips for removing the resistors from the board? Just heat up the pins at the pad from the top side and pull out?
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1. Don't use too much heat.
2. Don't apply any force before the solder joint is 100% melted. (Resin helps to get it flowing)
3. If cutting the resistor makes removal more easy, is usually do in more difficult situations. As a board is way harder to get vs a new 5 cent resistor.
4. Plan ahead, build in some sort of switch, so you never have to abuse the speedball board again and can switch between 12AU7 and E80CC daily :).
5. Plan further ahead, you might want 12BH7 some day, make it a 3 way switch. Really 12BH7's are a very interesting sidestep from the standard 12AU7's. More mellow/air/details compared to the average 12AU7. (oh and the 5731A's are needed for that).
6. I don't know, enjoy your turkey this evening? :P
Good luck!
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Thanks for the advice!
A switch seem like a good idea but i am not sure how I would go about that...
No turkey for me today, vegetarian and not american!
I hope you enjoy your turkey!
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Any other advice of people using combos with telefunken NOS genuine tubes :D???
It pairs great with a Western Electric 421A! But, then again, so does just about any other tube!
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Hi all! I’m currently working on my 2nd crack, my first is +sb with some cap upgrades. I’m a big fan of tube rolling, and I have several different varients with and without adapters: 12bh7, e80cc, 6sn7, 6f8g, 6c8g, 7193 and cv6, 6j5...the list goes on and on.
I’ve discovered a weird problem with my 6c8g tubes. The 6f8g works just fine with speedball, but when I use the 6c8g the sound is muted, with distortion happening around the 9pm mark on the volume. I’ve tested the adapter with 6f8g on the crack, and with the 6c8g on a darkvoice amp, and no problems. I’ve also tried different 6c8g tubes and had the same issue.
Any ideas why this particular variant is being so fussy?
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Any ideas why this particular variant is being so fussy?
That is not a compatible tube. It has twice the amplification factor, higher plate impedance, and lower transconductance. Other than all of those differences being not ideal for a tube substitute in the Crack, when you plug it in the operating point will be so far out of whack that neither the 6C8 nor the 6080 will be able to pass any signal.
A voltage check will also verify this. Terminals 1 and 5 are going to be very, very close in DC voltage to terminals 2 and 4.
(This high voltage on terminals 1 and 5 may also destroy the large Speedball PC board over a reasonably short period of time)
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I got a huge box of tubes off the Facebook marketplace for $50 last summer (mostly NOS RCA and GE) and seeing as I just finished my Crack, I thought I'd see if I could roll some tubes. Been unable to find any power tubes that are equivalent. I found an RCA 9AU7 tube. Clear top. The original tube is a 12AU7, but would this still be okay to run? If so, what's the quality difference between this tube and an RCA 12AU7? I'm still digging through this box hoping to find a 12AU7, but no luck yet.
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The 9AU7 is the same as a 12AU7 except it's expecting either 9V or 4.5V to heat the tube instead of 12.6V or 6.3V for the 12AU7. If you plug that tube into the Crack, it will glow very brightly and live a very short life.
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The 9AU7 is the same as a 12AU7 except it's expecting either 9V or 4.5V to heat the tube instead of 12.6V or 6.3V for the 12AU7. If you plug that tube into the Crack, it will glow very brightly and live a very short life.
Damn. Well I decided to try it out. Huge step up from the Sylvania tube that the crack came with. Almost no tube noise at all. Also much more balanced. With the stock tube it felt like the image wasn’t as centered as it should be - slightly right channel dominant. Def gonna look into the 12Au7 RCA now.
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Found a Tung-Sol 6A8G tube in my box. Wondering if this is safe to try out? I tried comparing data sheets online, but it's a bit confusing.
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You can put it in the amp and turn it on, but it will blow the fuse immediately. That is tube is nowhere near compatible.
This (https://forum.bottlehead.com/index.php?topic=663.0) post has a reasonably comprehensive list of compatible tubes.
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Hey Kill_Surf
I hate to sound like a dick but you just got your amp up and running reliably, replacing tubes willy nilly will quickly lead you back
into trouble again.
Use the amp for a while and enjoy, while doing so, do some research and get a basic understanding of tube requirements and circuit theory. I would hate to see you get yourself into trouble and have to possibly replace a transformer or other components that could be destroyed.
Just saying.
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Hey Kill_Surf
I hate to sound like a dick but you just got your amp up and running reliably, replacing tubes willy nilly will quickly lead you back
into trouble again.
Use the amp for a while and enjoy, while doing so, do some research and get a basic understanding of tube requirements and circuit theory. I would hate to see you get yourself into trouble and have to possibly replace a transformer or other components that could be destroyed.
Just saying.
I only tried the 9AU7. I've just had this big bin of tubes sitting in my closet and unfortunately didn't find any that would work with the Crack. No offense taken btw.
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Anyone purchase tubes from tubeworldexpress.com?
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Tube World has been around a very, very, very long time.
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Tube World has been around a very, very, very long time.
Oh good! There website seemed pretty impressive to me as did their selection, advice and measurements posted.
I've ordered from a few others also recently. I just finished my Bottlehead crack. Listened for a few days and rolled a few tubes already. Putting in the speedball now.
I have ordered the following tubes so far:
-5963 RCA Cleartop NOS 1971 (11.2/14.4ma)
-12AU7A Amperex Globe Logo Holland NOS 1970 (11.8/12.8ma)
-ECC82 12AU7A NOS NIB Mazda made in Czech (14.6/14.6ma)
-CV4003 Mullard boxplate wrinkle glass NOS (9.6/9.6ma)
Tubes I own:
Sovtek 6AS7G
Sylvania JAN 6080WB (came with crack kit)
Gold Lion ECC82 12AU7 platinum grade
Sylvania 5963 (came with crack kit)
I started off with the stock tubes mentioned above and was not very thrilled with the sound. Had me wondering what I had just put all that effort towards. So i rolled to the Sovtek 6AS7G and was immediately impressed. It pairs very nicely with the Sylvania 5963. Next I rolled the Gold Lion in, that sounded much different from the Sylvania, but definitely not in a bad way. I can post better impressions later. I'm waiting to find a single GEC 6AS7G or Bendix 6080 but they are so expensive! I'm just going to find my favorite preamp tube with the Sovtek for now. I think I'm most excited to hear the CV4003 mullard and the Mazda 12au7.
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Do also be sure that all your solder joints are 100%. The amp will sound pretty bad if you have cold joints, and rolling tubes and hearing enormous differences is sometimes an indicator of cold solder joints.
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Anyone else have any experience with the Sovtek 6AS7G? Not much mention of it hear.
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Because it's price is very high compared to NOS probably.
Here a 6N13S / 6H13C that's also out of Russia, looks and sounds good imo and saves you a lot of money.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N13S-6-13-6AS7G-RUSSIAN-100-TESTED-TUBE-NOS/283678599033?hash=item420c8fe779:g:4TsAAOSwoG5Z8FWl
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I feel with today's current prices of tubes $60 is almost considered the lower end for cost. I swear damn near all the tubes I've looked up recently have been $70-400 that most people recommend on here. It's a sad day for the wallet.
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Just to let you know. I have a fair amount of (on internet crazy expensive) tubes.
The price of a tube has little to do with the actual sound quality.
In my Crack i use my current favorite setup (since a few months) that cost me 12€ total.
I paid maybe 10€ for a CV2984 GEC power tube on a local antique market and 1€ each for a CV6/7193 (+-half 6SN7).
Most pricey part of this tube setup was the adapter needed from ECC82 to 2x 7193 at +-30€.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/crack-bottlehead-otl.476650/page-650#post-15242293
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The Sylvania 6080wb and the mullard cv4003 are a great pairing for the hd6xx/hd650. It's rich and full sounding. Sounds good with everything. The 6080wb really brought that rich sound compared to the sovtek 6as7g. The sovtek really opens the soundstage up with more air, details and highs that are allowed to sing.
The other pairing I liked for my own preferences is the sovtek 6as7g with the Mazda 12au7a. Compared to the other preamp tubes I rolled in the Mazda with the right power tube is some good stuff! Soundstage is a bit wider, more micro details start to stand out, the highs are so good! Along with controlled and punchy bass.
I really love hearing background details and an open airy sound. I'm hoping to purchase some more power tubes soon to be able to find the perfect one for my tastes. I am a bit worried the hd6xx are not going to give me the detail retrieval Im hoping for. I'm hoping at least I can get them closer to my tecsun caogen headphones.
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Is the Svetlana winged c 6H13C and the sovtek 6AS7G the same tube?
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Just finished looking through all 139 pages of this thread. My eyes hurt time for bed.
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Just to let you know. I have a fair amount of (on internet crazy expensive) tubes.
The price of a tube has little to do with the actual sound quality.
In my Crack i use my current favorite setup (since a few months) that cost me 12€ total.
I paid maybe 10€ for a CV2984 GEC power tube on a local antique market and 1€ each for a CV6/7193 (+-half 6SN7).
Most pricey part of this tube setup was the adapter needed from ECC82 to 2x 7193 at +-30€.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/crack-bottlehead-otl.476650/page-650#post-15242293
OMG....10€ for a CV2984 GEC :o It's a huge advantage living in Europe.
When I visited Germany last Christmas, I found GEC tubes rare and expensive on eBay.de as well, no advantage to eBay.com at all.
Maybe I should have spent some time to locate some antique market when I was there...too late now :'(
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Is the Svetlana winged c 6H13C and the sovtek 6AS7G the same tube?
Not too sure about that.
I do own several 6H13C's. You can post some pics of their innards here, and people here can check if they're the same.
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OMG....10€ for a CV2984 GEC :o It's a huge advantage living in Europe.
When I visited Germany last Christmas, I found GEC tubes rare and expensive on eBay.de as well, no advantage to eBay.com at all.
Maybe I should have spent some time to locate some antique market when I was there...too late now :'(
I got a used GEC 6080 for about $20 a while ago (east bay). :)
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Not too sure about that.
I do own several 6H13C's. You can post some pics of their innards here, and people here can check if they're the same.
Same.
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I got a used GEC 6080 for about $20 a while ago (east bay). :)
You need good luck to score desired tubes on east bay...congrats
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When is a tube out of range? Tubes have a large number of operating characteristics and parameters, as well as the different physical and mechanical bits. Circuits can have some range, more and less, of operational latitude to operate a tube under.
I bring this up around a specific curiosity of the Crack's output tube. The 6080 and 6AS7G have identical electrical characteristics, and they differ in packaging. I see the 6H13C and 6H5C (using Cyrillic here) typically called, or often treated as, direct substitutes for each other and to the 6080/6AS7G. They all look very close on the datasheets. Calling out the Gm, the 6H5C is quite a bit lower than the others - 5,000 vs. 7,000. What difference might this transconductance difference make in the Crack?
What prompted me to post this is someone mentioning to me recently that they've heard people report the GEC 6AS7G sounds as good or better than the Western Electric 421A/5998. Looking at the data sheet, the WE 421A has a Gm of 20,000. Isn't that a large Gm difference from the 6080? Could the tubes be direct subs in the Crack?
I really like the SED 6H13C and 6H5C. I can't hear a difference between them.
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Changes in transconductance will alter the output impedance of the amplifier. A whole lot of fuss has been made about the 5996 vs. the 6080, but we are talking about an output impedance of ~90 ohms vs. ~120 ohms, so YMMV.
With the Speedball installed, there is a great degree of flexibility when rolling tubes. You'll always know that the output tube will be running at 30mA per triode, and the cathode voltage will settle where it needs to go in order to do that. What you have to be careful of is putting a tube in there that brings the grid to cathode voltage too low, which could cause the output tube to draw some grid current and will collapse the performance of the amp.
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When is a tube out of range? Tubes have a large number of operating characteristics and parameters, as well as the different physical and mechanical bits. Circuits can have some range, more and less, of operational latitude to operate a tube under.
I bring this up around a specific curiosity of the Crack's output tube. The 6080 and 6AS7G have identical electrical characteristics, and they differ in packaging. I see the 6H13C and 6H5C (using Cyrillic here) typically called, or often treated as, direct substitutes for each other and to the 6080/6AS7G. They all look very close on the datasheets. Calling out the Gm, the 6H5C is quite a bit lower than the others - 5,000 vs. 7,000. What difference might this transconductance difference make in the Crack?
What prompted me to post this is someone mentioning to me recently that they've heard people report the GEC 6AS7G sounds as good or better than the Western Electric 421A/5998. Looking at the data sheet, the WE 421A has a Gm of 20,000. Isn't that a large Gm difference from the 6080? Could the tubes be direct subs in the Crack?
I really like the SED 6H13C and 6H5C. I can't hear a difference between them.
The thing is, even with the same specs tubes can sound significantly different, especially from different brands, due to different technology, materials, ..., designs used. And even a tube from the same manufacturer but from a different period can sound quite different.
GEC 6AS7G is the Holy Grail of 6AS7G/6080 tubes, insanely expensive...haven't heard one yet, so not sure how it compares to my 5998.
I'm quite surprised to hear that 6H13C and 6H5C sound the same, because they have different transconductances, which should affect the sound somehow (my understanding is that higher transconductance means higher gain). I asked the same question pages earlier, and one fellow here said they sound different, and while 6H13C is pretty good 6H5C sounds dull. I own several 6H13C's, they're decent tubes, definitely better than the crappy RCA's.
5998 can be used directly in Crack, I think you should be able to find it on the Crack drop-in replacement tube list on Page 1. But it has higher transconductance and gain than 6AS7G/6080. I read somewhere that to achieve 5998's best performance you'd better change some resistors on the Speedball to achieve its optimal working points.
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Because it's price is very high compared to NOS probably.
Here a 6N13S / 6H13C that's also out of Russia, looks and sounds good imo and saves you a lot of money.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N13S-6-13-6AS7G-RUSSIAN-100-TESTED-TUBE-NOS/283678599033?hash=item420c8fe779:g:4TsAAOSwoG5Z8FWl
Hi Tom, I remember you mentioned earlier that you dismantled some plastic adapters in order to fix the wiring inside. So just curious: 1. how the ceramic socket is attached to the plastic base in an adapter like below (do they use glue?), 2. do they use PCB or wires to rearrange pins, and 3. how to dismantle the adapter? Do you have any photos of inside? Thanks a lot.
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I regularly repurpose/resolder my valve bases but rarely rewire adapters (although i've also build a few just for use on my tester).
But! Manufacturers (especially Philips/Valvo/TFK) did this all the time, along with relabeling tubes as fit their needs (could be the exact situation with some 6N5S/6N13S :) ). From personal experience, if you are chasing a fancy tube, it's worth to look at the same internal construction on another base. Especially on rectifiers. AZ4/RGN2004/4004 for example, are pretty expensive. Just buy them with a broken P base (those things are a weak link) and put a new B4/5 (or UX4 for US) base on it. Got a few of those yesterday, just for this type of surgery.
Going back on topic.
So on the adapter you showed. The wiring inside is just good insulated point to point inside from my experience.
There's no glue to be seen in the one on your photo, and that makes it a good one to work on. You can reveal the wiring by loosening the bottom screw, that keeps hold of the top part. (Oh, you can't find the screws on yours? It's below the sticker in the middle ;) ).
The one downside to this kind of adapter is the "long" wires inside. When some wires crossover very closely, this could introduce noise (in theory at least, as i never had issues with this).
The other adapters one can work on themselves are the dual to single tube adapters. Like the 6J5, 76 to 12au7/ecc88. These use a PCB that is very very versatile. You can rewire it from 6 to 12V amps by making a few marked connections on the PCB. Or rewire the top part by switching the PCB tube sockets from 6J5 to 76 par example. Or rewire the bottom from 12AU7 to E88CC yourself by just unscrewing that part and rearrange them. These also come with all the holes and solder points for the cap connections. So if you have a 6J5 adapter like this, it's easy just to put in the top cap connections on the right places with a wire of choice, and voila, your own CV6/7193 to 12au7 adapter.
Small note on buying adapters. Compared to "china" adapters, it's worth looking into Deyan adapters on Head-fi. Friendly guy. Just got 6 adapters in the mail from him last week. Really good quality, well build stuff. (All adapters to B4 base, made to order, as nobody makes adapters for them (who uses B4 tubes anyway?! :-\ ) ).
Edit: IMPORTANT! I go completely bonkers on insulating wiring inside my own bases/adapters to prevent shorts. Can't stress this enough, be safe.
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Tom, thank you very much for the detailed suggestions on rebasing tubes and rewiring adapters!
I am pretty bad at soldering, so I don't have the courage to rewire my Crack sockets for new tube types. I normally buy adapters for new tubes. :-[ Just as your fantastic writing on repurpose adapters, I asked for the internal construction of adapters because I realized some adapters can possibly be rewired for other purposes this afternoon, and you just gave out the perfect answer to my questions. I think it is much safer to rewire adapters so that you don't run the risk of ruining your perfectly working Crack. Your maximum loss is an adapter, it's not a big deal at all, compared to loosing your beloved Crack for couple of days or couple of weeks. ;D
And of course people need to pay great attention to rewiring, any short in adapters would possibly ruin the amp. Not only that. I recently read on HF some tube veteran incorrectly plugged in the power tube (the tube had a missing guide pin, so pins were mispositioned when plugged in), and it caused short and ruined the power supply of a very expensive amp. :(
Deyan is a nice guy to work with, I've bought several adapters from him. Thanks a lot for the recommendation :)
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Don't get me wrong. My amps keep their designation. I never change sockets or the wiring inside of them (aside from the switch inside my Crack to use 7119's/E182CC's).
I also use adapters when needed or rebase a tube.
But a rebase is only with pre-WW2 socket tubes from Europe (comes with the fact that i don't like P sockets and prefer B4/5). And with such age, a rebase is sometimes needed. Plus some are so incredibly scarce it's a very worthwhile exercise to salvage them IMO.
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LOL...obviously I made a mistake. I was thinking about rewiring the amp sockets instead of rebasing the tube. :-[
Rebasing a tube needs lots of tools and efforts, it is a mission impossible to me ;D
But if the tubes are rare antique goodies, I am sure it's worth it.
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Is this a real sed tube?
http://vi.raptor.ebaydesc.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemDescV4&item=183557656844&category=64627&pm=1&ds=0&t=1582397799267&cspheader=1&oversion=a394b17f
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Is this a real sed tube?
http://vi.raptor.ebaydesc.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemDescV4&item=183557656844&category=64627&pm=1&ds=0&t=1582397799267&cspheader=1&oversion=a394b17f
Yes, it is a real sed winged C 6H13C.
Slightly different print than mine, mine has "6H13C" printed inside the Winged C logo, this one is printed outside the logo. But internals seem the same, so should be real.
The price is a little bit on the high side, normally you can find 6H3C around $8-12 apiece, plus $8-12 shipping from Russia or Ukraine for 3-5 weeks. This seller is located within U.S. so shipping will be much faster.
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What are your favorite power tubes?
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I'd only recommend "cheap" tubes to try.
20$ range: 6H13C, Thomson CSF 6080, Philips mullard mitcham factory 6080 (found labeled Mullard, Philips, Adzam, Valvo, Telefunken).
I'm now listening to a new setup. 15$ each tube, 30$ adapter.
For those who want a fun experiment with Crack. A pair of A2293's works as output tubes.
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I love the Thomson 6080
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I love the Thomson 6080
Using this in my standard crack. Smooth but detailed, quiet and inexpensive. What's not to like. See no reason to change and I have others. Using it with a CV4003.
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Rebasing a tube needs lots of tools and efforts, it is a mission impossible to me ;D
For me there's only one "special" tool involved that i don't use with other amp related construction -> The "special" toilet roll.
Here's how to rebase a tube in a few steps.
1. Get all needed: old tube, "new" base, wire, solder station (set to max heat/power), solder, desolder braid, cutters, glue.
2. Desolder old tube socket carefully or demolish them without breaking the glass (what i do) and "clean up".
3. Solder new wires that are 3x longer than you actually need and add insolation where needed (the extra length is mandatory to route them in the new base).
4. With new base on, solder new wires in place, cut to length and glue the base to the glass.
5. Before every step / when possible, check for shorts / test the tube in a tester.
I pictured one replacement last weekend.
Top picture: "new" base B4.
Middle picture: example of old P base.
Bottom picture: with removed P base, note the amounts of glue used by previous owners.
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Wow...bravo....I can't imagine I can do the rebasing with my soldering skills. Need to get a soldering station first, and need to polish my soldering skills if I were to do the job.
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Just ordered my Crack w/Speedball. What are your thoughts on the stock tubes?
Also, if you had to pick one other set to pair with The Atticus, which would it be?
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The stock tubes are generally perfectly fine. Many people roll in new combos but I honestly think 80% of people will be fine with what they receive from Bottlehead.
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Finally decided to try out some other tubes than the stock. For the power tube I got the RCA 6AS7G (grey plate). I tried this out first with the stock driver tube. Not much difference, but it did seem to resolve my slight balance issue. Then I bought the RCA 12BH7A. Best info I can find is that it's the early 70's tube, grey plate. Much more forward sound. Very detailed and dynamic. Then I tried out the RCA 12AU7 (black plate). Kind of disappointing considering it was more expensive than the 12BH7A. It's not a bad tube, just more warm and less dynamic. I like clear, forward dynamics and this just didn't do it for me. But I bought a pair of the 12AU7's so I think I'll just throw those in my Jolida JD9 cos I just have the stock tubes in it.
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I've thought about making an OTL amp with those. I thought I could probably power it with two Kaiju power transformers. I'd run it at about 100V P-K and half an amp of current. Output impedance might be something like 7 ohms. The cathode load would need to be a resistor capable of dissipating 50W, so something on a big heatsink or a 150+ watt rated part. That's per channel, a room heater indeed!
I don't even see the internal capacitances listed, but I bet they are HUGE. You'd probably want a big linear triode of some sort with very low Rp to drive the thing.
It would make a fun super high dollar OTL amp. With a little messing around, you could also drive speakers with it. It wouldn't surprise me if a Mainline sounded a lot better though!
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So that I'd have some extras, I bought a couple of tubes:
1963 Mullard 12AU7 ECC82
RCA JAN 6AS7G
Tube rolling is totally new to me, so Hopefully I didn't buy crap. Ha!
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My Crack came with a GE 6AS7 output tube, which has always worked well. I've done the Speedball upgrade and use HD600 headphones. Based on reviews - and to provide spares for both of the Cracks I have - I bought two Thompson CSF 6080WA output tubes. When I tested the first tube I can just barely hear the sound when the volume control is turned all the way up. When I tested the second tube there's no sound regardless of where the volume control is set. Is there something I'm missing, or are these just bad tubes? Both were in the original manufacturer's packaging and were purchased from what appeared to be an established business. Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.
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Put the original tube back in and see if it still works. If it does, the other tubes are not working. If the original tube also does not work now something has been disturbed in the amp that needs to be fixed, like a bad connection.
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Thanks. Still works perfectly with the original tube in it. Looks like I just got sold junk. Thanks again for your quick response.
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Before you give up, give the pins a good cleaning and try them again...John
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My Crack came with a GE 6AS7 output tube, which has always worked well. I've done the Speedball upgrade and use HD600 headphones. Based on reviews - and to provide spares for both of the Cracks I have - I bought two Thompson CSF 6080WA output tubes. When I tested the first tube I can just barely hear the sound when the volume control is turned all the way up. When I tested the second tube there's no sound regardless of where the volume control is set. Is there something I'm missing, or are these just bad tubes? Both were in the original manufacturer's packaging and were purchased from what appeared to be an established business. Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.
There's some sources from eastern Europe that appear to be selling bad Thomson csf 6080wa tubes. Recently a local guy got 6, all tested bad, some shorted out. Be careful when buying these via Ebay, use a tester before putting them in Crack with fancy headphones.. Clean the pins after you've made sure they'r all safe.
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Thanks for the additional responses. I tried cleaning the pins, but no luck. These came from a UK retailer, and he has agreed to replace them. I'll certainly be careful with the replacements as recommended.
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Has COVID effected the price of some tubes? In November I purchased a NOS Tungsram E80CC for about £15 on eBay, but now prices for E80CC's seem to have shot up a lot since then, or did I just get a good deal at the time?
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It's of course reasonable some sellers would be increasing their prices amid this economic hardship, but old stock E80CC tubes have generally been pretty pricey in recent years--especially those made in Holland. It seems you got a good deal if it's one of those desirable makes and tests at least good. Enjoy it!
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Quick question on tube rolling. I just finished my crack about 2 months ago. Thought I'd give tube rolling a try and purchased a RU-6H13C from "thetubestore.com". Got it in today, and "rolled" it in. Powered my crack up and the tube crackled and I could see some arcing going on inside for a second. I thought Oh, SH$T, I mean, SHOOT, there goes $25 bucks.
Fed it some audio, and, well, good to go. Sounds great.
So, is that normal for a new tube to do that? Any concerns about tube life or reliability?
I've got a 5998 on order too, so want to make sure if I see that again, it's normal.
Thx.
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It's not normal. But, it could be that something was lodged in between a couple of parts that vaporized the first time it was fired up. My suggestion would be to fire it up without headphones for a few cycles, letting it cool down completely in between. If it doesn't arc again the tube is probably OK. But if it continues to arc it's not going to get better.
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Hey Thanks Doc. Well, good advice, I'll try that in the future. Unfortunately, I already cycled the tube off and on since my post, um, with the headphones plugged in. Good news is no new arcing, headphones are all good....
Definitely for any new tubes, will fire up my crack with headphones removed, just as a precaution.
David
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I had a 6080 go ping after it had warmed up. Still carried on working fine but found that a small piece of glass had broken off a corner in the central section. Rattles around if I shake it but normally rests happily on the base.
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Just ordered my Crack w/Speedball. What are your thoughts on the stock tubes?
Also, if you had to pick one other set to pair with The Atticus, which would it be?
Hey Bull, once you get it built, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the synergy with the atticus - thanks!
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For me Tube Rolling is also totally new to me. In honesty i always believed that Tube rolling doesn't change the sound that much.
But I was still curious, so I changed the Stock Powertube with a russian 6H13C and well I must say im really impressed by the change of the sound.
I also liked the sound of an 6AS7-GA Power Tube but my favourite is so far the 6H13C ;D
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Hey Bull, once you get it built, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the synergy with the atticus - thanks!
Absolutely loving it. I am slowing upgrading. Added the first phase (small) of the speedball. Considering trying some different tubes. Still getting a small amount of buzz/sound in the right ear. I have redone all of the joints at least 3 times now. I am thinking maybe there is somethings slightly off with one of the tubes (can't hurt to try something new anyways). I only hear it when the music is very quiet.
I would say The BHC and The Atticus is a no-brainer pair.
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Edit: Sorry, didn't mean to ask "what's the best..."
I just realized I have some 12AU7s for my guitar preamp, so I'm stoked to be able to try some of them out. Ultimately I'm after a "clean tube sound". I will try EH and Tung Sol 12AU7s to start, plus whatever comes in my kit.
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Quick question on tube rolling. I just finished my crack about 2 months ago. Thought I'd give tube rolling a try and purchased a RU-6H13C from "thetubestore.com". Got it in today, and "rolled" it in. Powered my crack up and the tube crackled and I could see some arcing going on inside for a second. I thought Oh, SH$T, I mean, SHOOT, there goes $25 bucks.
Fed it some audio, and, well, good to go. Sounds great.
So, is that normal for a new tube to do that? Any concerns about tube life or reliability?
I've got a 5998 on order too, so want to make sure if I see that again, it's normal.
Thx.
When you fire up a tube for the first time, make sure you don't have your expensive headphones plugged in. Arcing from a tube could blow/kill your headphones or eardrums.
If you see arcing, as Doc said, there could be something in between internal components, or there could be some gas residuals inside the tube. Leave the tube on for 24+ hours, the getter inside tube will absorb the remaining gas.
Then you power off your amp, let it cool, and sometime later carefully examine if there is still arcing happening.
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Hi all! Been lurking around here for a few weeks. I am a recent and very proud owner of a Bottlehead Crack. Been experimenting with some tubes; without a doubt the best power tube I currently own is the Tung-Sol JAN-CTL 5998. So far I have not noticed much difference when using various pre-amp tubes though, but more on that to follow in my future posts. For now, I just wanted to see what's the best recommended practice when it comes to actually swapping the tubes. Obviously, I need to turn the amp off first, but beyond that must I wait until the tubes have reached room temp first? I don't want to burn my hands but I was thinking I can use some cloth to remove the hot tubes, but I'm not too sure if that can damage the tube, the socket, or anything else. Do I need to unplug the power, headphone jack, RCA cables, etc.? As you can tell, I'm no electrical engineer--or any kind of engineer for that matter : ) I have read a lot of the posts in this thread and many on the Head-Fi forum threads, but clearly there's well over a decade worth of posts and I'm sure I missed the answer I'm looking for somewhere along the way. Any help will be greatly appreciated!
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Just turn the amp off first. A silicone oven mitt would let you pull out hot tubes without burning your fingers.
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Thank you, Paul!
Now on to the main subject of this thread, been doing some reading on the 6SN7 tube and I'd like to try it on my Crack. I understand it's not compatible and I'd need an adapter. Any particular recommendation on the adapter? Does the 6SN7 tube to 12AU7 socket adapter Garage1217.com sell work? (according to their site, it is compatible with the Crack)
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I think the Garage 1217 one might be the only one that's not noisy.
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Thanks again! Any recommendation on a reliable tube supplier that's not eBay and also any decent 6SN7 variant that won't break the bank? I see a lot of 6SN7GT/B around. Will these work?
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I tend to use Vacuum Tubes Inc., but he isn't the kind of seller that will go pick through his stash to find the exact brand and construction that you're looking for. Personally I just buy them on eBay.
Any of the suffixes of 6SN7 will work provided the adapter works.
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If you want to be assured that the tubes are good, try Brent Jesse. Just google him.
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Thank you, PB & @adeep42! For now I went ahead and ordered an adapter from garage and a very reasonably priced NOS 6SN7 from a vendor on reverb with lots of reviews.
On a somewhat related note, I saw this https://www.ebay.ca/itm/312213040699 and wondered if it's worth the investment to add even more adapters and tubes! Someone on head fi made a post about it but can't find it at the moment. A ton of 6J5 tubes on the cheap sides on eBay would be my only motivation for now but of course I prefer to hear others who have tried this and their thoughts on the sound change. I always prefer more warmth, brightness, bass, less treble, and wider sound stage. I have a variety of headphones such as DT 1990 Pro (my absolute favorite right now), HD 650, Modhouse Argon MK3, and a few other, less noteworthy, ones...
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A 6J5 and a 6SN7 are identical other than the 6J5 only having half of what's inside a 6SN7. The tremendous downside of that adapter is that you need to find construction matched pairs of 6J5s. This is already done for you with 6SN7s.
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The Garage 6SN7 adaptor worked for me. I really enjoy the Crack plus Speedball with the 6SN7.
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Glad to hear that. I'm already very satisfied with mine with speedball and Tung-Sol 5998 but if upgrading my input tube improves the sound even further, then why the heck not!
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I've been tube rolling for a while and I finally find my perfect combo. Both RCA tubes. 6AS7G and 12BH7. Both are grey plates but they have a very incredible synergy. I'm running with Speedball and the 12BH7 has been my go to with or without Speedball when comparing to the RCA clear tops. I've tried black plates of the RCA 6AS7G and even the Tung Sol 5998 and both were incredibly microphonic. The combo I have is pure bliss with the Speedball. If I'm gonna be totally honest, black/grey plate doesn't really matter. The Crack w/Speedball sounds incredible no matter what tube you put in it. I've tried both and the difference is unnoticeable. The amp just sounds incredible. Maybe I just got lucky with my RCA tubes, but IMO don't waste your money on the 5998 Tung Sol tube if you're thinking about it.
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That's good info. Thank you! I got lucky when I bought my Crack, the gentleman I got it from had a Tung-Sol 5998 and he threw it in as part of the whole package, which was great. Re the 12BH7, did you have to make adjustments since it's on the "kinda drop-in" compatible list of tubes?
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That's good info. Thank you! I got lucky when I bought my Crack, the gentleman I got it from had a Tung-Sol 5998 and he threw it in as part of the whole package, which was great. Re the 12BH7, did you have to make adjustments since it's on the "kinda drop-in" compatible list of tubes?
nope. Adding the Speedball was the only adjustment I've made.
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"Perfect combo" suggestions should also mention the source and the type of headphones used to be useful in the general scheme of things.
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Great point, Doc. Mine for now is the stock input tube plus the Tung-Sol 5998 fed from my pc to Khadas Tone Board and using this set up my most favorite pair of cans among all the ones I've tested (TH-X00, HD 6XX, HD 650, Fostex T60RP, Argon t50rp MK3, DT 1990 Pro, and more) has got go be the DT 1990 Pro. Nothing comes even close to them.
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Hi everyone,
It's my first post on the forum, as a happy new owner of a Crack+Speedball! The gentleman I bought it from included the two tubes shown in the attached pictures. I'm having a hard time identifying them. Can anyone help?
I hope this is the right thread for this question.
Thank you!
Tommaso
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General Electric 6080
Sylvania 12au7
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General Electric 6080
Sylvania 12au7
Thank you!
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Can anyone identify these tubes? I was thinking GE 6080, maybe Raytheon 12AU7 but have doubts. Just trying to figure out what I have so I can make changes based off sound profile.
Thank you.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/trying-to-decide-crack-dv-ld-mkii-valhalla.928356/post-15785828
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Can anyone identify these tubes? I was thinking GE 6080, maybe Raytheon 12AU7 but have doubts. Just trying to figure out what I have so I can make changes based off sound profile.
Thank you.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/trying-to-decide-crack-dv-ld-mkii-valhalla.928356/post-15785828
GE 6080
Sylvania 12AU7, rebranded as Baldwin.
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Is the consensus pretty much to not bother with tube rolling before, or if, installing speedball? It sounds like some people think tubes make almost no difference with Speedball.
I've got a couple of power tubes to play with but don't know if or when I should start thinking about the input tube.
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If you have tubes sitting around already the easiest way to see if they’ll make a difference is to try them. I’ve seen some difference with different 6080s, but it’s up to personal tastes and ears.
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the consensus
That's not necessarily a word that fits well in this thread ;)
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Hahah :)
I definitely notice a difference with different 6080s in stock Crack. I’m just wondering if it’s a waste to buy input tubes before installing speedball or not.
My kit came with a GE 6080. I got a Tung Sol 6080 and to my ears it does things differently. I enjoy it more for different styles of music. It seems like an input tube with a nice juicy midrange would pair well with it. But will that change if I install speedball?
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I have a GE 6080 and a Sylvania 6080 among a few others. But the Sylvania 6080 is SO much better to my ears. I also have a couple of Tung-Sol 5998 tubes both in great condition (tested very high when purchased not too long ago from reputable vendors) but as much as I hate to admit it, the Sylvania 6080 somehow sounds different (in a good way) to me making me go back to it more often than not. It could also be what I'm pairing mine with too of course. Not too sure. Perhaps I need to do some A/B blind testing to see if I still prefer the Sylvania 6080. Maybe because I expect the Tung-Sol to sound so much better (because it cost so dang much more), I am a little bit disappointed?! Sorry, that's the psychologist in me talking... But the difference I feel between the GE and Sylvania is beyond just a feeling. The Sylvania 6080 has much less distortion especially in lower frequencies. The bass is noticeably cleaner when using Sylvania. Anyone else experienced this?
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Don't overthink this. If you have a tube you like, use it. Use it up.
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@crackling is it a GB6080 (Gold Brand)? I’ve read a few people mention liking the Sylvania GB6080 more than the 5998 and 421A. But even if it’s not, we all have different ears and brains so use what you like. People seem to really like the RCA clear top but I much prefer the Sylvania 12AU7 that BH provided in my kit.
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Can anyone identify this 12AU7?
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RCA.
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Well, after a few days listening during work I'm really starting to enjoy the crack's sound. I do have a bit of noise from my PC, but I ordered some rectifiers to implement the fix near the bus wire mentioned in the other post.
In the meantime I've been reading this massive thread, trying to slowly understand what tubes I can try out. I've narrowed down my selection to start with some cheaper ones, I'd just like to know if they will work with the crack.
https://tubedepot.com/products/telefunken-black-diamond-ecc82-12au7
https://tubedepot.com/products/mullard-12au7-ecc82-new-production-preamp-vacuum-tube
I'm guessing they are fine since they are 12au7?
Is there a way to be certain, when given the specs of a tube, that it won't break the amp? I don't know much about electrical flow or circuit design, but I'm trying to learn.
I'm also open for any cheaper recommendations to just try for fun. I'll be installing the speedball upgrade eventually and was reading it can reduce the distortion on the low end, which some people like. I saw a mullard tube mentioned as a possible way to get some back so I figured I'd get a new production mullard tube to see how it sounds.
Telefunken I picked because the name sounds cool.
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I wouldn't recommend spending that kind of money on new production tubes.
Her are two real Telefunken 12AU7s for $20
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pair-Telefunken-ECC82-12AU7-Smooth-Plate-Diamond-TEST-NOS-Strong/133501912709?hash=item1f15558685:g:QycAAOSwbp9fRCfq (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pair-Telefunken-ECC82-12AU7-Smooth-Plate-Diamond-TEST-NOS-Strong/133501912709?hash=item1f15558685:g:QycAAOSwbp9fRCfq)
You should be able to find similar old stock Mullards for not much money.
New Telefunken tubes are relabeled JJ tubes. New Mullard tubes are relabeled Electro-Harmonix tubes. There's nothing wrong with either, but they are only similar to the originals in name.
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I wanted to have a few backup 12AU7 varieties around and I thought I’d try a new production tube to see what the difference might be for myself. It’s a Northern Electric 12AU7. The music sounds good but there is a faint hiss that my RCA clear top doesn’t make. I don’t know if a few hours of burn will make it settle down. For now it’s a $40 experiment that I probably won’t repeat. Also in my bag of tubes were the orange painted RCA above, a GE JH 5814 and an RCA black plate 5963, which all together cost less than the NE.
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I've lived with much tubed gear glowing with many tube types and hundreds of variants of these. I've come to a few things. You will never know how a tube sounds until you live with it and gain experience with it with your ears in your gear. Tube cost and sonic performance aren't necessarily positively correlated. Often that flea-market-priced humble-brand tube sounds better than that expensive NOS uber brand/reputation tube. And that there is no one magic tube that is perfect. Tubes can alter the sonics of piece substantially, but typically there are favorites, and several of them. (Also, learn to positively identify a tube by what's in the bottle, less than the ink on the outside; this way you are certain of exactly what you have and what you might want to talk about/share with others)
I have a very (very) large selection of 12AU7 family tubes. Because of the Crack, I now have a very nice selection of 6080/6AS7Gs. And I have a good handle of which flavors of these tubes I prefer in the Crack. I feel the Crack always sounds great, and a few favorite tubes take the sonic fun even further for me. I've only used Drop Sennheiser 6XX and 58X with the Crack, for reference. (I am curious what some other high impedance headphone brands and models might sound like with the Crack, but haven't gotten there, yet)
What I'm asking this group about are some "odd", "rare", oft-very-pricey 12AU7 types that I'm seeing more of more recently. I don't have any of these. I'm wondering whether people here may have some experience with them that they'd like to share.
Among these are:
- Italian Fivre brand
- Any OSRAM or GEC
- Telefunken G73-R
And, how are some of the more current production premium 12AU7s:
- Psvanes
- TJ Full Music
???
Love to hear what experience people have had with these tubes.
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I wouldn't recommend spending that kind of money on new production tubes.
Her are two real Telefunken 12AU7s for $20
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pair-Telefunken-ECC82-12AU7-Smooth-Plate-Diamond-TEST-NOS-Strong/133501912709?hash=item1f15558685:g:QycAAOSwbp9fRCfq (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pair-Telefunken-ECC82-12AU7-Smooth-Plate-Diamond-TEST-NOS-Strong/133501912709?hash=item1f15558685:g:QycAAOSwbp9fRCfq)
You should be able to find similar old stock Mullards for not much money.
New Telefunken tubes are relabeled JJ tubes. New Mullard tubes are relabeled Electro-Harmonix tubes. There's nothing wrong with either, but they are only similar to the originals in name.
Ah thanks. I felt a twinge of excitement watching the ebay bidding on this tube, that could be trouble...
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I've lived with much tubed gear glowing with many tube types and hundreds of variants of these. I've come to a few things. You will never know how a tube sounds until you live with it and gain experience with it with your ears in your gear. Tube cost and sonic performance aren't necessarily positively correlated. Often that flea-market-priced humble-brand tube sounds better than that expensive NOS uber brand/reputation tube. And that there is no one magic tube that is perfect. Tubes can alter the sonics of piece substantially, but typically there are favorites, and several of them. (Also, learn to positively identify a tube by what's in the bottle, less than the ink on the outside; this way you are certain of exactly what you have and what you might want to talk about/share with others)
I have a very (very) large selection of 12AU7 family tubes. Because of the Crack, I now have a very nice selection of 6080/6AS7Gs. And I have a good handle of which flavors of these tubes I prefer in the Crack. I feel the Crack always sounds great, and a few favorite tubes take the sonic fun even further for me. I've only used Drop Sennheiser 6XX and 58X with the Crack, for reference. (I am curious what some other high impedance headphone brands and models might sound like with the Crack, but haven't gotten there, yet)
What I'm asking this group about are some "odd", "rare", oft-very-pricey 12AU7 types that I'm seeing more of more recently. I don't have any of these. I'm wondering whether people here may have some experience with them that they'd like to share.
Among these are:
- Italian Fivre brand
- Any OSRAM or GEC
- Telefunken G73-R
And, how are some of the more current production premium 12AU7s:
- Psvanes
- TJ Full Music
???
Love to hear what experience people have had with these tubes.
Which 12AU7 you like the most?
Beware of fakes on the eastBay.
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My favourite 12AU7 is the Mazda 12AU7. Both the English and "Foreign" ones sound good to me paired with a Tung Sol 5998.
Then a TungSol 12AU7 (old one not the new productions) and a Brimar CV4003/12AU7WA which run the Mazda close.
I have one of those Tunsgrams above and they are next in my line behind the 3 mentioned already.
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Have been enjoying my Crack+Speedball immensely for the past week. Must say that at first I wasn't too big a fan of the speedball; I do enjoy very warm tubey sounds and I felt it took that away a bit from the stock Crack in exchange for better technicalities. I've had some fun tube rolling with a large amount of 6080 and 6AS7Gs from another amp and have been pleasantly surprised by how well the tubes which I had previously deemed too slow or muddy sounding are shining in the speedballed Crack. I have also noted that tube rolling impacts sonic changes much less compared to the stock Crack (the 'premium' tubes e.g. GEC, Tung Sol did make a more noticeable impact on the sound).
Have only been able to pair with a Gold Lion ECC82 and the stock Baldwin 12au7 as of now, but have ordered some Mullards and 6SN7s to try. With the gold lion I have really enjoyed the Sylvania 'gold brand' 6080, Mullard CV2984, a pair of GEC CV4079+ adaptor (sound practically identical to the GEC 6AS7G for a fraction of the price) and to my surprise a random Chinese (Nanjing production) 6N13P tube I had lying around. I had a pair of them but the first one's guide pin broke as I plugged it in; it was hollow... Vacuum no more. But it really gives a nice warm roundness. Will get around to trying the 5998 as I dig through my box; I have always preferred the British tubes to it though. Am excited to try the Mullard ECC82 with the more neutral output tubes for a touch more warmth.
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Testing out a Sovtek 6AS7G right now, fixed the issue I was having with faint background noise.
I swear it sounds thinner than the 6080, not sure... could be in my head. Maybe it needs to burn in longer.
I'll have to do some comparisons for fun. This is pretty damn neat, really awesome kit. Thanks for the new hobby :)
EDIT-
Yep, it sounds better after listening for a while today... at least I think it does. It's more of a feeling than an objective assessment.
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I wanted to have a few backup 12AU7 varieties around and I thought I’d try a new production tube to see what the difference might be for myself. It’s a Northern Electric 12AU7. The music sounds good but there is a faint hiss that my RCA clear top doesn’t make. I don’t know if a few hours of burn will make it settle down. For now it’s a $40 experiment that I probably won’t repeat. Also in my bag of tubes were the orange painted RCA above, a GE JH 5814 and an RCA black plate 5963, which all together cost less than the NE.
New production tubes are a waste of money. I'll never waste a dime on these garbages.
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New production tubes are a waste of money. I'll never waste a dime on these garbages.
I see a general consensus about this, but wonder if there has been anything besides subjective analysis.
I decided to have some fun last night and recorded the amp's output using two different tubes. One was an RCA 6080 that the kit came with, the other was a Sovtek 6AS7G.
Now this was using a mono guitar cable, so it's only comparing one channel.
I'm not even certain it works that way, but I believe the tip would touch the left channel, and the sleeve would touch the right channel, and the ground of the jack. The input jack is mono so it would only grab the left channel.
Anyway, I got the sovtek from here: https://www.partsconnexion.com/TUBESVT-68351.html
I was getting a new pot and knob already from that store, figured what the hell I'll try a new tube. I think it's new production, the description says new.
It sounded thinner at first, but after a while seemed to become fuller. It's pretty subjective though, more of a feeling like I said before.
So I recorded the amp playing a song with each tube, ran a frequency analysis. I've attached the picture.
The top line is the hold of the highest amp for a given frequency, the bottom is the average. I played the same song for the same amount of time on each.
It seems like the sovtek has slightly better seperation of frequency response? You can see at the very start there's a clear separation in the low end, where the RCA is smoother.
In general this seems to follow across the other frequencys, around 100 you can see the RCA is smoother again.
Anyway, not sure it means much but it was fun to do. I don't know much about this stuff really but it sure is neat.
From an objective standpoint, the sovtek solved a lot of microphonic issues I had with the RCA tube.
From a subjective standpoint, I swear the RCA still sounds a little richer, but I think it's in my head. The sovtek today seems very rich though... it's so subtle it's hard to tell.
I should get someone to help me do a blind test.
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For measurements like that, you want to use periodic noise that itself would have a flat frequency response. I'd also try to get the level up to about the 0 line. I would also do this with no headphones plugged in, and with the newer version of the Crack, you'd want a 1/4" to 1/8" adapter plugged in to defeat the shorting function of the output jack.
If the Crack was -60dB at 10kHz, we wouldn't sell very many :)
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For measurements like that, you want to use periodic noise that itself would have a flat frequency response. I'd also try to get the level up to about the 0 line. I would also do this with no headphones plugged in, and with the newer version of the Crack, you'd want a 1/4" to 1/8" adapter plugged in to defeat the shorting function of the output jack.
If the Crack was -60dB at 10kHz, we wouldn't sell very many :)
Hmm yes, I was looking for some frequency response test audio but couldn't find anything. I guess a noise that plays across all frequencies at the same level would work?
I'm clearly out of my element here...
I picked up a 1/4" TRS to 2 1/4" TS cable. My interface has 2 1/4" mono jacks for recording, this should allow me to record both channels out of the amp's headphone jack, no?
EDIT-
I found this page: https://www.audiocheck.net/testtones_highdefinitionaudio.php
"flat freq response" was the phrase I needed to find it. I'm guessing the white noise would work well for this purpose.
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Try Right Mark Audio Analyser (RMAA), does everything for you by playing a frequency sweep, and then measuring the response, distortion, noise floor etc.
Start with a loopback cable and get the level dialled in to 0db and you should be seeing very close to a flat frequency response, then put an amplifier in the loop, set the volume control for the same level and measure again. You can see in the example my cracks response was at the limit of my test setup, except the distortion was order of magnitudes higher, but in a nice tubey way :)
Download from here https://audio.rightmark.org/download.shtml (https://audio.rightmark.org/download.shtml) , i prefer to use the older v5.5 of the software.
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Try Right Mark Audio Analyser (RMAA), does everything for you by playing a frequency sweep, and then measuring the response, distortion, noise floor etc.
Start with a loopback cable and get the level dialled in to 0db and you should be seeing very close to a flat frequency response, then put an amplifier in the loop, set the volume control for the same level and measure again. You can see in the example my cracks response was at the limit of my test setup, except the distortion was order of magnitudes higher, but in a nice tubey way :)
Download from here https://audio.rightmark.org/download.shtml (https://audio.rightmark.org/download.shtml) , i prefer to use the older v5.5 of the software.
Oh cool, thanks!
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I see a general consensus about this, but wonder if there has been anything besides subjective analysis.
I decided to have some fun last night and recorded the amp's output using two different tubes. One was an RCA 6080 that the kit came with, the other was a Sovtek 6AS7G.
Now this was using a mono guitar cable, so it's only comparing one channel.
I'm not even certain it works that way, but I believe the tip would touch the left channel, and the sleeve would touch the right channel, and the ground of the jack. The input jack is mono so it would only grab the left channel.
Anyway, I got the sovtek from here: https://www.partsconnexion.com/TUBESVT-68351.html
I was getting a new pot and knob already from that store, figured what the hell I'll try a new tube. I think it's new production, the description says new.
It sounded thinner at first, but after a while seemed to become fuller. It's pretty subjective though, more of a feeling like I said before.
So I recorded the amp playing a song with each tube, ran a frequency analysis. I've attached the picture.
The top line is the hold of the highest amp for a given frequency, the bottom is the average. I played the same song for the same amount of time on each.
It seems like the sovtek has slightly better seperation of frequency response? You can see at the very start there's a clear separation in the low end, where the RCA is smoother.
In general this seems to follow across the other frequencys, around 100 you can see the RCA is smoother again.
Anyway, not sure it means much but it was fun to do. I don't know much about this stuff really but it sure is neat.
From an objective standpoint, the sovtek solved a lot of microphonic issues I had with the RCA tube.
From a subjective standpoint, I swear the RCA still sounds a little richer, but I think it's in my head. The sovtek today seems very rich though... it's so subtle it's hard to tell.
I should get someone to help me do a blind test.
Measuring and analyzing the output signal is too complicated to me. But several things I need to point out:
1. The Sovtek 6AS7G is not new production, they are NOS Russian tubes. Though I've never bought any Sovtek branded 6AS7G tubes, I have several Svetlana 6H13C tubes (Russian equivalent to 6AS7G), and they look identical to your Sovtek. I believe they are from the same Russian factory.
2. You paid too much for your Sovtek ($48 :o), Russian 6AS7G tubes normally cost $10 a pop plus shipping from Ukraine/Russia, that's what I paid.
3. NOS Svetlana 6H13C/6AS7G is a decent tube for the price, large soundstage and good bass performance. For $10 I'd pick up a Svetlana 6H13C any day than a crappy RCA 6AS7G. IMHO RCA 6AS7G is the worst 6AS7G tube ever manufactured, muddy nothing but muddy ;D
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The adaptor I am using to put a 6sn7 in the 12AU7 socket has quite long pins so it doesn't seat flush like a 12AU7 does. Is there any problem with clipping 2mm off each pin so it will seat properly?
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The adaptor I am using to put a 6sn7 in the 12AU7 socket has quite long pins so it doesn't seat flush like a 12AU7 does. Is there any problem with clipping 2mm off each pin so it will seat properly?
I don't see any problem cutting the pins. Just make sure you smooth the cutting edges with some file or sandpaper so that they won't scratch the socket, I think. :)
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Well I was a bit bored today, searched around for some tubes for fun.
Picked up this bugle boy for 25 bucks: https://www.ebay.com/itm/254626346257
I started searching Mullards at first, was surprised to see them selling for around 500 bucks.
Crazy high prices, I'd rather spend that on SEX kit, or maybe some DIY synth stuff.
Eurorack stuff looks interesting, lots of DIY. Modular stuff sounds pretty good on this amp too, listening to some tracks right now. The highs, they're high but they are airy....? They aren't harsh, and modular stuff can get pretty freakin high pitched. The bass too... man, it really thumps on some songs in a really good way.
It would be a lot of fun to build my own synth and run it through the amp.
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Here are some Mullard 12AU7s for under $50:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-x-12AU7A-ECC82-Mullard-Hammond-Tube-Very-Strong-Balanced-3-Available/283991231062?hash=item421f324a56:g:j2EAAOSwR6NfRuok (https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-x-12AU7A-ECC82-Mullard-Hammond-Tube-Very-Strong-Balanced-3-Available/283991231062?hash=item421f324a56:g:j2EAAOSwR6NfRuok)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mullard-Hammond-12Au7A-Vacuum-Tube-Measured-100-90-Gm-on-Amplitrex-1967-Gf2/282981215782?hash=item41e2feae26:g:nfEAAOSw~19bCC5u (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mullard-Hammond-12Au7A-Vacuum-Tube-Measured-100-90-Gm-on-Amplitrex-1967-Gf2/282981215782?hash=item41e2feae26:g:nfEAAOSw~19bCC5u)
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Here are some Mullard 12AU7s for under $50:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-x-12AU7A-ECC82-Mullard-Hammond-Tube-Very-Strong-Balanced-3-Available/283991231062?hash=item421f324a56:g:j2EAAOSwR6NfRuok (https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-x-12AU7A-ECC82-Mullard-Hammond-Tube-Very-Strong-Balanced-3-Available/283991231062?hash=item421f324a56:g:j2EAAOSwR6NfRuok)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mullard-Hammond-12Au7A-Vacuum-Tube-Measured-100-90-Gm-on-Amplitrex-1967-Gf2/282981215782?hash=item41e2feae26:g:nfEAAOSw~19bCC5u (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mullard-Hammond-12Au7A-Vacuum-Tube-Measured-100-90-Gm-on-Amplitrex-1967-Gf2/282981215782?hash=item41e2feae26:g:nfEAAOSw~19bCC5u)
Oh cool, thanks PB! Picked one up :)
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Hi all,
I am wondering if changing the input tube makes a difference in the sound of the Crack. If it does what is the input tube that you all enjoy? I tried googling this question, but every thread and article seems to focus on the power tube.
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IMO the 12AU7 makes the bigger difference.
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Thanks PB! That’s good to know.
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Have been enjoying rolling 6SN7 tubes with an adaptor, I personally enjoy them a lot more than 12AU7! I have had a slight problem with one 6SN7 in particular and was wondering if anyone could explain what was going on.
my volume pot is aligned with 0 as 7 oclock. The tube produces loud, constant crackle in the right channel from 9 oclock to 4 oclock, but this crackle is barely audible from 7-9 oclock, and dead silent from 4-5 oclock (max volume). Once warmed up a bit, the crackling range is from 10oclock to 4 oclock.
I've never had a tube do this; the other 7 or so 6SN7s I've rolled into this adaptor have all been dead silent, with only one having a faint buzzing noise at the very max volume. I'm currently working around the situation by putting crack volume at max and -50dB on my DAC. I have tried reseating the tube and cleaning the pins. Any insight is appreciated!
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Use a different tube.
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Have swapped it out, but just wanted to learn some more or hear some opinions about what could possibly cause this? I have had my fair share of noisy tubes but never one that runs silent at different points on the pot!
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Use a different tube.
Hi PB, I have a question regarding the power output of 6080/6AS7 tubes. From datasheet 6080 tube has a max plate dissipation of 13W (vs only 3.5W out of 2A3 tube). So it seems 6080 has much higher power output than 2A3 does. But why 2A3 or 300B tubes are normally considered to be more powerful tubes than the 6080/6AS7 class?
I also read somewhere (couldn't remember where now) Crack outputs 0.3W into 300 ohms headphones. The number 0.3W is quite low compared to the max output of 13W from 6080 tubes, why so? Does that mean 6080 is not used up to its full potential, and a lot more juice can be squeezed out of it?
Thanks.
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That 13W figure in the datasheets refers to maximum "plate dissipation" -- i.e., the waste energy burned off as heat at the plate. Max power of the signal output of the tube will be a fraction of that figure. For example, the RCA datasheet for the 2A3 shows max. plate dissipation of 15W but max output power of 3.5W. I don;t know what the max output of the 6080 tube is, but it's a safe bet that it's nowhere near 13W.
cheers, Derek
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I also read somewhere (couldn't remember where now) Crack outputs 0.3W into 300 ohms headphones. The number 0.3W is quite low compared to the max output of 13W from 6080 tubes, why so? Does that mean 6080 is not used up to its full potential, and a lot more juice can be squeezed out of it?
How much power does an OTL headphone amplifier need? If we are to make 600mW, but we double the wasted heat and the size of the power transformer in the process, is that a worthwhile trade?
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That 13W figure in the datasheets refers to maximum "plate dissipation" -- i.e., the waste energy burned off as heat at the plate. Max power of the signal output of the tube will be a fraction of that figure. For example, the RCA datasheet for the 2A3 shows max. plate dissipation of 15W but max output power of 3.5W. I don;t know what the max output of the 6080 tube is, but it's a safe bet that it's nowhere near 13W.
cheers, Derek
Thanks, you are correct, I missed the max power dissipation figure from the 2A3 datasheet. I read it again and indeed 2A3 has 15W max plate dissipation and 3.5W max power output. But for 6080/6AS7 tubes datasheets only show 13W max plate dissipation, nowhere can I find their max power output figure.
But as you said max power output is a fraction of max plate dissipation, so I think the max power output of 6080/6AS7 should come close to 3-ish Watt, which means 6080/6AS7 could possibly output as much power as the 2A3's ?
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How much power does an OTL headphone amplifier need? If we are to make 600mW, but we double the wasted heat and the size of the power transformer in the process, is that a worthwhile trade?
Thanks, PB! You are correct 0.3W should be enough to drive 300 ohms headphones in an OTL design. I'm just interested in the potentials from 6080/6AS7 tubes, considering the huge power demand from planars, but of course not in an OTL design as their low impedances are not appropriate for OTL's.
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For planar headphones to do OTL, you would want to look more at a speaker type amplifier with multiple output tubes and some feedback to straighten things out. We of course would suggest the SEX amp...
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Thanks PB, my knowledge on electronics is very limited, impossible to design an amp :-[
I always think it would be a great idea for BH to add a headphone jack to the 300B/2A3 speaker amps (with some modification to the circuit of course). Amps like WA5 or WA33 that can power both speakers and headphones are quite popular. There should be a niche market there :)
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For planar headphones ... We of course would suggest the SEX amp...
But if you're going all out, I would recommend the combination of BeePre and Kaiju, or BP and Stereomour. I haven't heard the S.E.X., but in my experience BeePre+Kaiju > BeePre+Stereomour > Stereomour.
I always think it would be a great idea for BH to add a headphone jack to the 300B/2A3 speaker amps (with some modification to the circuit of course). Amps like WA5 or WA33 that can power both speakers and headphones are quite popular. There should be a niche market there :)
You can just use a speaker taps to headphone adapter cable -- I still use one with my Stereomours. But from a business perspective, you might have point -- I've often thought something similar. Folks who are willing to pay $2K to $6K for planar headphones are probably willing to pay at least that much for amps to drive them. But how many of those folks are interested in soldering the amps together themselves? Dunno, but I suspect not many. But I agree that there is a niche, spendy market there waiting to be tapped.
cheers, Derek
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The 6080 was not designed for audio and is not very linear. In Crack, it operates at a small fraction of its power capability, and with negative feedback (as a cathode follower). Both substantially reduce distortion.
As a power amp, running (for example) 130v at 100mA without feedback into a 600-ohm load, it will deliver about 1.5 watts - at about 15% distortion! At 5% distortion, it is only capable of 0.15 watts.
That's why there is no audio power output specification.
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Thanks, PJ and Derek. With distortion that high there is definitely not much potential for 6080/6AS7 to deliver high power, even though they have 13W max plate dissipation (what a waste :-\). Otherwise, they would have been used widely in place of 2A3 or 300B ;D
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There was a brief period in the early 50s where push-pull designs were popular with the 6AS7 / 6080. Push-pull cancels the even order harmonics, which improves the situation even without feedback. I think it was overtaken by the greater power available from pentodes and beam tetrodes.
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For planar headphones to do OTL, you would want to look more at a speaker type amplifier with multiple output tubes and some feedback to straighten things out. We of course would suggest the SEX amp...
Off topic, but I just got a pair of 25ohm planars, and I can attest to to the SEX amp driving them well, as well as my SS amp. I also briefly tried them on the Mainline, which also seem to drive the planars well.
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S.E.X. amp had gobs of power for planars.
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I've seen the sticky about compatible tubes, and at just under 150 pages, it's a tome of valuable information. I'm new to tube rolling, and it does sound fun. But with all the options and information, it's hard to make an informed decision. So I seek specific recommendations: Which alternate tubes should I try first? Are there any tried-and-true choices out there? A consensus on particularly nice tubes that don't cost a fortune? I'm open to suggestions.
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Buy a smattering of what's cheap on eBay. I would suggest not buying any new production tubes.
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Buy a smattering of what's cheap on eBay. I would suggest not buying any new production tubes.
I meant to post my question as it's own topic. Oops. But since we're on the subject- any particular tubes you'd recommend?
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I've seen the sticky about compatible tubes, and at just under 150 pages, it's a tome of valuable information. I'm new to tube rolling, and it does sound fun. But with all the options and information, it's hard to make an informed decision. So I seek specific recommendations: Which alternate tubes should I try first? Are there any tried-and-true choices out there? A consensus on particularly nice tubes that don't cost a fortune? I'm open to suggestions.
It's a spendy way to go, but the Western Electric 421A is always good (if you can find one) and I've been enjoying that with my Tung Sol tall bottle halo 6SN7 with the Garage1217 adapter (http://garage1217.com/garage1217_diy_tube_headphone_amplifiers_012.htm#e80)
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It's a spendy way to go
At $230+, that Western Electric is a bit out of my price range just now. But I'll add it to my wish list for the future, when I become inexplicably wealthy! That Tung Sol on the other hand is much more attainable. Thanks for the suggestions!
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At $230+, that Western Electric is a bit out of my price range just now. But I'll add it to my wish list for the future, when I become inexplicably wealthy! That Tung Sol on the other hand is much more attainable. Thanks for the suggestions!
I would recommend a Svetlana 6H13C (Russian equivalent to 6AS7G) for around $10 from Russia/Ukraine. A decent power tube to start with, especially for the price.
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Same as PB, I would not recommend buying any new production tube, a pure waste of money.
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I meant to post my question as it's own topic. Oops. But since we're on the subject- any particular tubes you'd recommend?
Yes, you did post it as its own topic, then I merged it into this thread where it belongs.
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Yes, you did post it as its own topic, then I merged it into this thread where it belongs.
Haha, whoops! Thanks for keeping me in line!
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I would recommend a Svetlana 6H13C (Russian equivalent to 6AS7G) for around $10 from Russia/Ukraine. A decent power tube to start with, especially for the price.
Can you suggest a vendor for these? There don't appear to be any currently on eBay.
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Can you suggest a vendor for these? There don't appear to be any currently on eBay.
There are several on eBay.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/MATCHED-PAIR-6H13C-6AS7-6080-7802-NOS-1976-TOP-QUALITY-BLACK-PLATES-NOS/124344273254?hash=item1cf37f0966:g:bJwAAOSw3NpcVElH (https://www.ebay.com/itm/MATCHED-PAIR-6H13C-6AS7-6080-7802-NOS-1976-TOP-QUALITY-BLACK-PLATES-NOS/124344273254?hash=item1cf37f0966:g:bJwAAOSw3NpcVElH)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/6AS7G-6as7g-6H13GC-6H5C-CV2523-valvola-nos-tube-high-fidelity-audio-amplifiers/192902269727?hash=item2ce9df0b1f:g:DBAAAOSwn7Rb8BgW (https://www.ebay.com/itm/6AS7G-6as7g-6H13GC-6H5C-CV2523-valvola-nos-tube-high-fidelity-audio-amplifiers/192902269727?hash=item2ce9df0b1f:g:DBAAAOSwn7Rb8BgW)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N13S-6AS7G-ECC230-SVETLANA-Tube-Double-Triode-NOS-USSR-Lot-1pc/273312455235?hash=item3fa2b11a43:g:JC0AAOSwgZ5cW~fG (https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N13S-6AS7G-ECC230-SVETLANA-Tube-Double-Triode-NOS-USSR-Lot-1pc/273312455235?hash=item3fa2b11a43:g:JC0AAOSwgZ5cW~fG)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-pcs-6N13S-6AS7G-ECC230-Svetlana-1970s-Double-Triode-Tubes-OTK-USSR-NOS/202983096777?hash=item2f42bc41c9:g:x7gAAOSwJrBelaU- (https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-pcs-6N13S-6AS7G-ECC230-Svetlana-1970s-Double-Triode-Tubes-OTK-USSR-NOS/202983096777?hash=item2f42bc41c9:g:x7gAAOSwJrBelaU-)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/4x-6N5S-6AS7G-ECC230-Vintage-Vacuum-Tubes-Double-Triode-Slightly-Used/164373017112?hash=item2645653218:g:5xUAAOSwa4NfVj9~ (https://www.ebay.com/itm/4x-6N5S-6AS7G-ECC230-Vintage-Vacuum-Tubes-Double-Triode-Slightly-Used/164373017112?hash=item2645653218:g:5xUAAOSwa4NfVj9~)
There are plenty more than this.
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Can you suggest a vendor for these? There don't appear to be any currently on eBay.
Lots of them on eBay, just list some below (note: 6H13C = 6N13S in Russian)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N13S-6-13-6AS7G-RUSSIAN-100-TESTED-TUBE-NOS/284022831534?hash=item42211479ae:g:4TsAAOSwoG5Z8FWl
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-6N13S-6AS7G-ECC230-Tube-SVETLANA-NOS-OTK/324293038471?hash=item4b815f1187:g:lmQAAOSwMBFfXKTf
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Ah, I see! I must have mis-typed when I was first searching for them.
I went ahead and bought one. As well as a Mullard CV4003. These will be my first attempts! But I gather it's best to have a variety. So I'm still taking recommendations!
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The Brimar cv4003 ($$) and Brimar 13d5 ($$$) was a fun comparison for me after I first built my crack. They both sound good, but I found the 13d5 to stand out as a clear winner. Harder to find in the US but they're both on ebay. Langrex is a good UK seller BTW.
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I recently bought one of these 6N13S tubes from this vendor. It took a long time to arrive in Canada but it was well packaged for shipping. No tube box.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N13S-6AS7G-ECC230-SVETLANA-Tube-Double-Triode-NOS-USSR-Lot-1pc-/273312455235 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N13S-6AS7G-ECC230-SVETLANA-Tube-Double-Triode-NOS-USSR-Lot-1pc-/273312455235)
I had an interesting issue. I plugged it in and listened for a few hours, then I went and had dinner, leaving it turned on. When I got back to it an hour or so later there was a light buzz I hadn’t noticed before. Oh well, I thought. Tube rolling is teaching me that they can’t all be winners.
Tonight I plugged it in and didn’t hear the noise until after about a half hour. My TS/Chatham 2399 is microphonic when tapped so I decided to tap on this one to see what other noises it might have. Lo the noise immediately stopped! (Also not microphonic)
I’d read on some page somewhere that tube nose can sometimes be caused by little bits of manufacturing stuff stuck somewhere inside the tube where they shouldn’t be, and a few taps could dislodge a flake of material and cure the buzz. I tried it on an unusable modern 12AU7.. some really hard taps, but nothing happened. This tap was unintended for that purpose, but it worked. At least for the moment. We’ll see as the tube continues to break in. I might be crazy and it’s just something like the tube pins should have been cleaned first..
I guess it doesn’t read as a shining endorsement for the Winged C, but it actually is. Cheap, beautiful, and sounds great.
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I recently bought one of these 6N13S tubes from this vendor.
I also just purchased the same tube from the same vendor! I look forward to hearing it. Thanks for your feedback, I'll be curious to see if any similar issue occurs with the one I ordered.
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I recently bought one of these 6N13S tubes from this vendor. It took a long time to arrive in Canada but it was well packaged for shipping. No tube box.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N13S-6AS7G-ECC230-SVETLANA-Tube-Double-Triode-NOS-USSR-Lot-1pc-/273312455235 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N13S-6AS7G-ECC230-SVETLANA-Tube-Double-Triode-NOS-USSR-Lot-1pc-/273312455235)
I had an interesting issue. I plugged it in and listened for a few hours, then I went and had dinner, leaving it turned on. When I got back to it an hour or so later there was a light buzz I hadn’t noticed before. Oh well, I thought. Tube rolling is teaching me that they can’t all be winners.
Tonight I plugged it in and didn’t hear the noise until after about a half hour. My TS/Chatham 2399 is microphonic when tapped so I decided to tap on this one to see what other noises it might have. Lo the noise immediately stopped! (Also not microphonic)
I’d read on some page somewhere that tube nose can sometimes be caused by little bits of manufacturing stuff stuck somewhere inside the tube where they shouldn’t be, and a few taps could dislodge a flake of material and cure the buzz. I tried it on an unusable modern 12AU7.. some really hard taps, but nothing happened. This tap was unintended for that purpose, but it worked. At least for the moment. We’ll see as the tube continues to break in. I might be crazy and it’s just something like the tube pins should have been cleaned first..
I guess it doesn’t read as a shining endorsement for the Winged C, but it actually is. Cheap, beautiful, and sounds great.
It might be a little bit unlucky to have noise issue. I got several 6H13C's and none of them had the noise issue. Hopefully tapping will resolve the issue, but be careful, do not tap the tube too hard as it will possibly knock off some cathode coating and create more problems.
Sometimes dirty / oxidized pins can also cause noise issues. So make sure you clean the pins before plug-in.
I agree with your assessment, 6H13C (aka Winged C) is cheap, beautiful , and sounds great, much better than the crappy muddy sounding RCA 6AS7G. A very good tube to start with.
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So I think I want to test some other tubes in my crack otl, several of you have recommended the 6H13C
I'm a little confused with these markings
if you go to eBay you find this seller
12-rocketman or the link that monsterdonkey on October 06 posted ("Sorry, you are not allowed to post external links")
are these the Svetlana 6H13C you are talking about?
I get it that there are other sellers, it's just that this guy comes up as the first result when you do a search on eBay. That is if you search for 6N13S, if you search for 6H13C you get two results, one seller from France the other from UK, then "Results matching fewer words" and then the above guy comes up as number three with the 6N13S.
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6N13S = 6H13C
6H13C is written in Russian, if translated into English it's 6N13S. So you can search for either.
Doesn't matter which seller you buy from, just check seller's credibility and price first, make sure it's a credible seller with good price.
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When you view the photos, it's etched as 6H13C on the tube glass, coz it's a Russian tube.
But in the ads some seller will list them as 6H13C and some will list them as 6N13S.
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Well one Svetlana 6H13C is ordered, cheap ~$20 including shipping
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Does anyone know where can i get 7n7 to 12au7 adapter?
I'm looking at this adapter from ebay - will it work?: www.ebay.com.au/itm/1pc-7N7-7F7-TO-ECC82-12AU7-ECC83-12AX7-adapter-CNC-Copper-body-6-3V-heat/193442991853
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I'm looking at this adapter from ebay - will it work?: www.ebay.com.au/itm/1pc-7N7-7F7-TO-ECC82-12AU7-ECC83-12AX7-adapter-CNC-Copper-body-6-3V-heat/193442991853
It sure could.
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Does anyone know where can i get 7n7 to 12au7 adapter?
I'm looking at this adapter from ebay - will it work?: www.ebay.com.au/itm/1pc-7N7-7F7-TO-ECC82-12AU7-ECC83-12AX7-adapter-CNC-Copper-body-6-3V-heat/193442991853
7N7s are relatively cheap and can work in the amp with adapter. I've bought several adapters from that seller and they have all been of good build quality and no noise. Currently using their 6SN7 adapter in the crack.
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It sure could.
Thanks.
7N7s are relatively cheap and can work in the amp with adapter. I've bought several adapters from that seller and they have all been of good build quality and no noise. Currently using their 6SN7 adapter in the crack.
Thanks, I'm buying few adapters (incl 6sn7) from that seller too :)
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I just received this tube from an eBay seller. They have several more. I’ll link to it if anyone’s interested.
Can anyone provide more information about it? It’s a Chelmer labeled Tung-Sol 6080WA maybe. Maybe the testing label is incorrect. I don’t know!. I mean info like guesses as to year and country of manufacture, or anything like that.
So far after only 30 minutes of listening I have no complaints. It plays more nicely with the RCA cleartop than my GE 6080 does. Warm, clear but not shrill. I quite like my Tung Sol/Chatham 5998, which is why I got this.
(https://i.postimg.cc/JDDFTc3q/5-EF3-E583-60-CF-4259-89-D7-6-A606-E4-F356-D.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/JDDFTc3q)
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It looks a fair amount like an RCA 6080. The white printing threw me off a little bit, but it looks like Chelmer is a rebrander in the UK. It's unlikely that any of the printing or numbers on the tube itself really tells you much. Is there anything acid etched into the glass?
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No etching or any marks. Here’s a link to another tube from the same batch:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/CV5008-6080WA-Tungsol-double-O-getter-metal-base-Amplitrex-tested-3251002-/203028310018
I imagine they got a stack of these Chelmers and decided to test them as Tung-Sol for lack of any other solid information. I just noticed the word Brimar also somewhere in the ad. Ha.
So buyer beware.The one I got is not bad at all, it just may or may not be not be the exact thing I thought I bought.
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I just received this tube from an eBay seller. They have several more. I’ll link to it if anyone’s interested.
Can anyone provide more information about it? It’s a Chelmer labeled Tung-Sol 6080WA maybe. Maybe the testing label is incorrect. I don’t know!. I mean info like guesses as to year and country of manufacture, or anything like that.
So far after only 30 minutes of listening I have no complaints. It plays more nicely with the RCA cleartop than my GE 6080 does. Warm, clear but not shrill. I quite like my Tung Sol/Chatham 5998, which is why I got this.
(https://i.postimg.cc/JDDFTc3q/5-EF3-E583-60-CF-4259-89-D7-6-A606-E4-F356-D.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/JDDFTc3q)
It does look like RCA 6080 a lot, but it can also be a Mullard 6080. The 2 tubes are like twins, hard to tell them apart. I need more pics on the tube to confirm which one it is.
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No etching or any marks. Here’s a link to another tube from the same batch:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/CV5008-6080WA-Tungsol-double-O-getter-metal-base-Amplitrex-tested-3251002-/203028310018
I imagine they got a stack of these Chelmers and decided to test them as Tung-Sol for lack of any other solid information. I just noticed the word Brimar also somewhere in the ad. Ha.
So buyer beware.The one I got is not bad at all, it just may or may not be not be the exact thing I thought I bought.
This one looks like an RCA 6080 to me. Tested pretty low and way overpriced.
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I’ve found some photos of Raytheon 6080s that look very similar as well, down to the white base. I’ve left feedback on eBay suggesting it may not actually be a Tung Sol tube. Oh well!
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I’ve found some photos of Raytheon 6080s that look very similar as well, down to the white base. I’ve left feedback on eBay suggesting it may not actually be a Tung Sol tube. Oh well!
Raytheon never made any 6080 tube, all Raytheon 6080's are rebrands, mostly from RCA 6080's.
So they do look very similar, in fact, exactly the same except the label... ;)
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It is for sure not a Tung Sol 6080 tube, not even close. :)
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I haven't ever seen the grid coolers up top on a Mullard 6080.
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You mean the black shields between the top micas?
Some earlier Mullard 6080's do have the RCA-like shields, like the one on the left.
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I like the Mullard idea. A rebranding company based in the UK could just pick up some tubes from down the road and do their thing, avoid the overseas shipping. I’ll call it a Mullard then. Nothing against RCA. Some of my favourite tubes are RCAs.
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I note the very poor quality of the brown base and the rather crude crimps on the right hand tube. View full screen. What is the supposed identity of that one?
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That's what a typical CV2984 looks like.
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Hi PB, can you help to identify if this Dayton 100uF cap is an oil film cap? I don't see "oil" or "film" mentioned anywhere in the specs.
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-dmpc-100-100uf-250v-polypropylene-capacitor--027-447?utm_group=%7Bgroup%7D&msclkid=ea1cc11e262d1eb95fa59e787a1d394c&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=DSA_Dayton-Audio&utm_term=dayton%20audio&utm_content=Dayton%20Audio
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It's a metalized film cap with no oil.
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Great, thanks a lot for the confirmation, PB!
I was suspicious about the cap because it is smaller than those 100uF oil film caps, thought it does look like an oil film cap.
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The lack of oil should not prevent you from using them.
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That's for sure, I'm pretty new to caps, so not sure what magic these "oil" and "film" bring :-[
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Oil is helpful for cooling, filling voids, and arc protection. These aren't really an issue for coupling caps in a Crack.
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I've recently picked up some ECC31 as well as some nice looking 6N7G tubes. I have an ECC31--> ECC32 adapter, and was wondering if this would work for the crack. Would R1 on the speedball board at 470 ohms work for the ECC31, just as it does for the ECC32, or are there other considerations with the single cathode?
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470 ohms for the R1 on the small board may work for the ECC31. You'd have to use an EC31->EC32->12AU7 stack of adapters.
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470 ohms for the R1 on the small board may work for the ECC31. You'd have to use an EC31->EC32->12AU7 stack of adapters.
Thanks Paul for the confirmation. I've installed a switch to go between 117, 235 and 470 Ohms and testing it out today. For reference, fresh 12AU7 on 235Ohm reads 65V OA/OB, 6SN7s similar. Very used ECC32 on 470 Ohm tests 90V.
ECC31s on 470Ohm tests 85-93V. 6N7Gs seem to be higher testing at 90-95V. They are all pretty fresh but seem to test a little higher but still barely within the acceptable range. Should be ok for long term use, or should I try up the 470 Ohm resistor value? To me so far, they sound just as good as the ECC32 for a non-silly price.
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Maybe you could nudge the 470 ohm resistor up a bit more to bring the plate voltage down a bit.
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I’m absolutely loving this amp.... lets just say I was interested in picking up a couple tubes for them.... Can anyone recommend what to start with? Is there a tube upgrade that is guaranteed to please? (Budget would be less than $200 per amp)
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For my input tube, I have enjoyed the Mullard CV4003 (~$50 on eBay). For my power tube, I've been really loving the Thomson 6080WA (I bought a matched NOS pair for ~$50 on eBay).
That combo sounds amazing on my Crack (no Speedball upgrade yet).
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For my input tube, I have enjoyed the Mullard CV4003 (~$50 on eBay). For my power tube, I've been really loving the Thomson 6080WA (I bought a matched NOS pair for ~$50 on eBay).
That combo sounds amazing on my Crack (no Speedball upgrade yet).
Thank you. If I understand correctly, the power tube does not make much sonic improvement?
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You’re welcome. I’m not 100% sure about sonic improvement. I’ll let someone else answer that haha. The other power tubes I have tried are a Russian 6as7g and a GE 6080. I found the Russian tube to have a flat sound, lacking in the low end, and lacking depth. That’s the best way I can describe how it sounded to me. I also didn’t care for the sound of the GE 6080. Both were rolled with the Mullard CV4003.
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I’m absolutely loving this amp.... lets just say I was interested in picking up a couple tubes for them.... Can anyone recommend what to start with? Is there a tube upgrade that is guaranteed to please? (Budget would be less than $200 per amp)
If you have a budget of $200, I would recommend you to get a Tung Sol 5998 and a Telefunken/Mullard/Amperex/Mazda 12AU7.
If you are willing to try 6SN7 tubes with adapter, there will be much more choices, it's a deep rabbit hole.
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Thank you. If I understand correctly, the power tube does not make much sonic improvement?
I don't think so.
My experience is that in Crack the driver tube accounts for 40% and the power tube accounts for 60%.
You need a good power tube to get the most out of Crack. A sucker power tube (like RCA 6AS7G) will doom whatever driver tubes you throw in.
Once you get a good power tube, you can switch different driver tubes for different flavors.
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Forgot to mention a good starter tube would be the Russian 6H13C (i.e. 6N13S) tube. You can get them around $10 apiece + shipping from Ukraine or Russia.
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A sucker power tube (like RCA 6AS7G) will doom whatever driver tubes you throw in.
I'm curious to know thoughts on the rca 6as7g and why it's a sucker power tube
Thank you
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I'm curious to know thoughts on the rca 6as7g and why it's a sucker power tube
Thank you
It has rolled off highs and lows, kinda mid-centric, which is quite typical of the RCA "house-sound". RCA 6SN7 is no different.
When you add RCA 6AS7G or 6SN7 to your Crack, you'll find the overall presentation is veiled, kinda muddy sound that I really dislike.
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sound that I really dislike
That's the most important part of your post. It's a sound that you dislike. But will someone else dislike it? I will suggest that we all temper our descriptions to include what our own taste might be, as you have done in describing what you are hearing from RCA 6080s or 6SN7s. I don't necessarily disagree with you, particularly about a 6SN7 sounding a little lacking on top. But it's a very linear tube, and it has a great midrange. Some folks absolutely love the sound. After 25 years at this I know for sure that my Crack amp might sound like crap to one person, but not to someone else.
The original idea behind this kit was to offer a cheap way for all of us to roll tubes and form our own opinions. I still think that is the best approach. I'll also suggest that people stop paying stupid money for tubes. I buy tubes on ebay all the time. Not the overpriced ones. IME about half the sellers know jack shit about what they are selling. Caveat emptor. The law of diminishing returns applies heavily. If you see some 6080/6AS7 variant for $400 on ebay, run the other way. It might sound better to you, but it won't sound 26.66 times better than a $15 one. If we all start paying $400 for a 6080 tube pretty soon a Crack kit will be a grand.
Oh yeah, and all of this opinion is useless if you don't say what headphones you are using to form these opinions. Let's be logical here.
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Hi Doc. B, glad to hear from you.
I agree with you on many levels. While I do hate the sound of RCA 6AS7G and RCA 6SN7, I do find some folks like them, especially those mainly on vocal albums, sometimes Jazz albums. So I stated the reason why I dislike them. I also agree with you on the tube prices. The NOS tube prices were kind of going wild recently. A pair of Tung Sol 6AS7G's were selling for $300+ weeks ago, I was just stunned when seeing the winning bid. People were going crazy, out of rationale, propelled by the tube-mania from head-fi. I got my TS 6AS7G's for $20 a pop just couple of years ago.
BTW, I am using Senn HD800 headphones with my Crack w/ Speedball. :)
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I'll also suggest that people stop paying stupid money for tubes. I buy tubes on ebay all the time. Not the overpriced ones. IME about half the sellers know jack shit about what they are selling. Caveat emptor. The law of diminishing returns applies heavily. If you see some 6080/6AS7 variant for $400 on ebay, run the other way. It might sound better to you, but it won't sound 26.66 times better than a $15 one. If we all start paying $400 for a 6080 tube pretty soon a Crack kit will be a grand.
I've been wondering for a long time whether NOS tubes really sound better than new production tubes of the same type and specifications, or if the popularity of NOS tubes is more about the fun and pride of owning antique tubes, similar to how people enjoy owning antique furniture. It seems just about everybody wants NOS tubes but I have my doubts as to whether the hysteria is really justified with respect to sound quality.
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Yes, it’s a funny thing NOS vs New. A couple decades ago I bought a used Fender Deluxe Reverb II and when I looked in the back I found a bunch of old tubes. Imagine! So I ordered a complete set of new JJs and popped them in. I still have those old tubes and now that I’m reading all of these tube rolling forums I wonder if I made a horrible mistake all those years ago, and I consider rolling them back in to see.
One thing I like about tubes is that they are shiny.
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Hi Doc. B, glad to hear from you.
I agree with you on many levels. While I do hate the sound of RCA 6AS7G and RCA 6SN7, I do find some folks like them, especially those mainly on vocal albums, sometimes Jazz albums. So I stated the reason why I dislike them. I also agree with you on the tube prices. The NOS tube prices were kind of going wild recently. A pair of Tung Sol 6AS7G's were selling for $300+ weeks ago, I was just stunned when seeing the winning bid. People were going crazy, out of rationale, propelled by the tube-mania from head-fi. I got my TS 6AS7G's for $20 a pop just couple of years ago.
BTW, I am using Senn HD800 headphones with my Crack w/ Speedball. :)
I just finished up my Crack w/Speedball and running them on a pair of 6XX and ZMF Verite C , sounds great on the stock tubes, its my first tube amp, so I went out and got a pair of RCA 6AS7G which was on sale. I didnt change the stock 12AU7 just the stock 6080, and Im not sure if I know how to describe the difference, but for me the stock tube sounds a lot better, clearly wider stage and more "exciting", and on a side note I feel like I had to turn the volume knob more to get more volume from the 6as7g which im not sure why.
Aside from the Tungsol 5998 and mullard , any other tubes would anyone here kindly recommend me both pwer and input. I have scrolled thru lots and lots of threads and fail to find some consolidated post on this matter.
Thanks a lot
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I have scrolled thru lots and lots of threads and fail to find some consolidated post on this matter.
Thanks a lot
That's a good thing. It tells you that there is no consensus. We all get to choose a tube that suits our own unique taste.
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I just finished up my Crack w/Speedball and running them on a pair of 6XX and ZMF Verite C , sounds great on the stock tubes, its my first tube amp, so I went out and got a pair of RCA 6AS7G which was on sale. I didnt change the stock 12AU7 just the stock 6080, and Im not sure if I know how to describe the difference, but for me the stock tube sounds a lot better, clearly wider stage and more "exciting", and on a side note I feel like I had to turn the volume knob more to get more volume from the 6as7g which im not sure why.
Aside from the Tungsol 5998 and mullard , any other tubes would anyone here kindly recommend me both pwer and input. I have scrolled thru lots and lots of threads and fail to find some consolidated post on this matter.
Thanks a lot
Here you go: https://forum.bottlehead.com/index.php?topic=663.465
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Got a Thomson 6080WA - worked for a day and now I can only hear a very faint sound if I crank the amp up quite a bit. If I put the original tube in that came with the kit everything works just fine again.
Did I get a dud or is there anything I should try to diagnose?
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Did I get a dud or is there anything I should try to diagnose?
I would send it back.
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I would send it back.
Seller is in the UK and I'm in the US, so hopefully I won't end up paying $20 for the privilege of using it once.
Luckily these aren't super rare, definitely improved the sound a bit so I'll see if they send a replacement or if I find another vendor.
Thanks!
edit: seller already replied (less than 20 minutes) and will send a replacement.
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Hey All,
Finished my BH Crack months ago, May 2020, and purchased some tubes to roll in (RU 6H13C and a Philips 5914A) and I'm enjoying it immensely. Listened without the SB upgrade for sometime then installed it a couple months back, as well as some Audyne caps (man those suckers are big, 400V? Kinda overkill; barely squeezed them in along with the SB upgrade).
Came back to this topic for ideas on more tube rolling a few days ago, and came across the post with info on a Taiwanese site with lots of tubes. The poster had mentioned that they carried some Thomson 6080WA, lots of them, (and I also read many posters like their sound), and, too, right now they are at a reduced price of ~$US15, so I was thinking of making a purchase, but, there is a "PS" with the tube description that says,
"This tube need soft start of high voltage. if your amplifier does not have a rectifier tube for soft start, do not buy this tube. NO RETURN of this item if your amplifier do not have a rectifier tube . Please pay ONLY IF you agree ."
What does that mean? And, does that mean it won't work in my Crack? If not, why are Thomson 6080WA tubes recommended by other BH Crack posters? The description also mentions to not use them in "Chinese" made headphone amplifiers; what's with Chinese headphone amps, or is the site making a "political" statement?!
Here's the link: http://tubes.tw/shop/product_info.php?products_id=1279
Also, PB in a post sometime in the past mentioned new input tubes are a waste of time (paraphrasing) over NOS or used even? Why? Is it price to value ratio? Or other reasons?
Thanks for any insight!
Happy Rolling!
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There have definitely been a lot of posts about people having problems with that particular seller, so take that for what it's worth. That seller also doesn't understand that a directly heated rectifier will put out full voltage within a couple of seconds after being powered on, so even that statement is a little peculiar.
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I've been using the Thomson 6080WA for a few months now in my Crack. No issues to report, and I definitely did not do anything special to it. Just popped it in haha.
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There have definitely been a lot of posts about people having problems with that particular seller, so take that for what it's worth. That seller also doesn't understand that a directly heated rectifier will put out full voltage within a couple of seconds after being powered on, so even that statement is a little peculiar.
Wow, there are even directly heated rectifier tubes, first time to hear it ;D I thought there are only directly heated power tubes, like 300B or 2A3.
But that seller's comments on needing a soft start from tube rectifiers also confused me, why would a 'hard' start prevent Thomson 6080WA from performing? It just doesn't make sense to me. :o
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There have definitely been a lot of posts about people having problems with that particular seller, so take that for what it's worth. That seller also doesn't understand that a directly heated rectifier will put out full voltage within a couple of seconds after being powered on, so even that statement is a little peculiar.
I wonder if those tubes were more susceptible to arcing on start up. I know of a certain "Chinese made" amplifier with 6080s that has a daft 3000uf of capacitance in the power supply, maybe they didn't get along.
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...
But that seller's comments on needing a soft start from tube rectifiers also confused me, why would a 'hard' start prevent Thomson 6080WA from performing? It just doesn't make sense to me. :o
The 6080 can draw excessive current - enough to damage the cathode - if the cathode warms up before the bias kicks in. There is a warning about that in the data sheet, including a minimum cathode bias resistance.
In Crack, the 6080 is operated as a cathode follower, and has a 3000 ohm cathode resistor - about ten times greater than the minimum.
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Thanks PJ, I've never noticed that warning in tube data sheet (at least not in the RCA 6080 data sheet that I have).
Is this a specific problem to the Thomson 6080WA tube? Or the seller is selling duds?
I've never heard such problem on other 6080/6AS7G family tubes. Also, you mentioned the cathode resistor in Crack is large enough to shield the impact.
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It's common to all 6AS7/6080 tubes.
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There is a warning about that in the data sheet, including a minimum cathode bias resistance.
It's also worth mentioning that in a Crack with the Speedball, the 6080 isn't able to draw more current than the current sources under the cathode allow.
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It strikes me that a failure mode that occurs after just one time running the tube with no visible arcing is likely to be about the tube getting gassy, or having developed a hard short after thermal cycling, or a tube pin connection opening up.
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It's also worth mentioning that in a Crack with the Speedball, the 6080 isn't able to draw more current than the current sources under the cathode allow.
Interesting, since Doc B. was talking about arcing and shorting, I am now thinking whether the Speedball will protect us from the possible damages from arcing and short (since Speedball will limit the excessive current draw). haha ;D
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Interesting, since Doc B. was talking about arcing and shorting, I am now thinking whether the Speedball will protect us from the possible damages from arcing and short (since Speedball will limit the excessive current draw). haha ;D
If the grid shorts to the plate, the C4S isn't going to help you.
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Thanks PB, then I'll continue to stay away from 5998/421A tubes as they are known to be prone to arcing. ;D
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Sigh, so I have another Thomson 6080WA failure. Second tube, different vendor, same serial number.
Anything I can troubleshoot or is there something wrong with this batch? I don't have a tube tester unfortunately.
In this case the tube lasted several days, and stopped working after I turned the amp off and swapped out a different input tube. Other tubes work just fine, although I do prefer the sound of these.
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There isn't anything you can troubleshoot if the tube is the issue.
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So should I assume there's a bad batch of these being sold? Serial # is FSE-8052-FF in case anyone has one from the same batch.
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Yes, there are many users positing similar experiences with those tubes from that eBay vendor.
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My Thomson came from Langrex in the UK and is fine and I like the sound with my 4003. This one is from FSE-8140-FF.
Langrex are only about 60 miles from me.
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Yes, there are many users positing similar experiences with those tubes from that eBay vendor.
The note on their site "Do not use this tube in Chinese made headphone amplifier" is starting to make more sense now, i bet a bunch of D******** owners bought them after reading about them on a forum and had a bunch of failures. "Do not use this tube in amercian kit headphone amplifiers" will be added next :P
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This wasn't from the .tw vendor - these are two different ones.
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Sounds like the proper disclaimer is "Do not use this tube, period".
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Yeah, I wonder what kind of eruptions would happen in an OTL speaker amp, where there are usually no protections in place.
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I believe @Tom-s once mentioned on Head-Fi that some Eastern-European sellers are selling those Thomson 6080 duds as NOS tubes.
The ones from reputable sellers like Langrex should be good.
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I recently bought a new power tube for my Crack, and it occasionally makes a whistling/high-pitched noise. The noise is clearly audible if I put my ear near the tube (no headphones on), and when I put my headphones on the noise is coming through both channels. Never had this occur before.
Should I let the tube burn in for awhile?
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Sometimes tubes can be microphonic, if you tap on the glass or press on it does the noise stop?
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Yep, tapping the tube seems to fix the issue. This really only happens right after I turn the amp on. After it has been burning for a few minutes it stops making the noise.
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Yep, tapping the tube seems to fix the issue. This really only happens right after I turn the amp on. After it has been burning for a few minutes it stops making the noise.
i'm having the opposite issue. my noise isn't there initially. but after being on for a while it starts up until i tap it.
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Its just one of those things, i have a few 5998's that do that too. Adding those damping rings to the outside of the tube can be enough to stop it. I think its cause by the subtle vibration of the power transformer, which in turn gets the grid wires singing at the right frequency. I have used a number of microphonic tubes, but these are the only ones i have seen that just start to sing without provication.
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Cleaning pins and sockets often stops that type of oscillation.
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I appreciate the responses mcandmar and Doc. After the first couple days of letting the tube burn, I've had no issues with the 6AS7G tube.
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Now that I’m all settled in with my C2A, I’d like to try some different tubes.
Can anyone recommend a good 6080 and 12AU7 that would provide a noticeable difference from the stock tubes?
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Since brands vary with the market prices, you might want to identify the ones you have first. Just sayin' ...
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I’m relatively new to tubes, still watching videos and reading blogs as I don't really have much of a foundation in understanding them. I only have the tubes included with the C2A kit.
My hope is a list of 6080’s and 12au7’s that would be considered worthy of trying to experience differences in tubes. (While I learn more about them)
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Here is a link I have found very useful in my tube rolling experience. Jeb (who has posted in the BH forum in the past) did an extensive review of 6080, 12AU7, and 6AS7 tubes over at Super Best Audio Friends. As always, these are subjective reviews, and based off what his ears told him. This was a good starting point for me, and it helped me when buying some tubes that I wanted to try out.
https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/bottlehead-crack.120/page-3#post-13651
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Thank you so much! This is exactly what I was hoping for.
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You're welcome!
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If you go back to the beginning of this thread there is a lot of info about what is good and what is not so good. Mostly though, better is in the ear of the listener and opinions vary on most tubes. Don't pay big money if you are just experimenting.
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Hi I'm new here been into audio hobby since my twenties. Started with solid state until I got my first tube amp. Recently I bought a fully loaded Crack and am loving it. I'm wondering about philips 7316 on price of $390. I won't spend that kinda money on small tube unless it really performs.
I wish I could use my Baldwin 12ax7 but I guess it requires more voltage then the Crack provides? Currently running a Baldwin 12au7 and rca 6as7g. I'm seeing if I like my Bendix 6080wb that's very euphonic vs rca which produces more bass slam.
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Don't spend $390 on a tube for the Crack, that's just craziness.
A 12AX7 has way too much gain to work well in the Crack and is overall a really bad choice. It also would require a redesign of the circuit to get the 6080 to bias properly.
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On the opposing end of the spending spectrum, I acquired this tube on the cheap. $10.
However, with inspection upon arrival, I'm wondering if I may have fallen victim to false advertising.
As, I am just beginning to dip my toe into the vacuum tube kiddie pool, I reach out to the community of which I now proudly roll with.
My question: A wolf in sheep's' clothing or genuine article?
My investigation has gone unfulfilled. Not that I'm put off if I was duped by a less than diligent purveyor of merchandise, my curiosity is piqued and knowledge is what I seek.
Most of the U.S. players have valves that look very similar, but it is the dimple getters that have me befuddled. Either way, it is a fine sounding tube, so no buyers remorse.
Any insight would be welcomed and appreciated.
Please and thank you.
P.S.- If I have misplaced this inquiry or erred in any way, my apologies. This is my first forum posting... ever... anywhere.
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My question: A wolf in sheep's' clothing or genuine article?
It's a Sylvania 6080.
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A working tube for $10, nothing to complain about there.
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Hence my skepticism on it's authenticity.
Thanks PB for confirmation.
Not only functional, but quite a pleasant listen as well.
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Hence my skepticism on it's authenticity.
I have never, ever, ever seen a faked 6080.
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Me either, but I do have a really rare miniaturized 6080.
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Maybe authenticity was a poor choice of a word. I was more curious of the possibility of a rebrand.
Knowledge gained though. Thanks.
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The problem is that the other tubes that would look convincingly like a Sylvania 6080 are going to be RCA, Tung Sol, etc. It wouldn't make sense to take a $10 tube and spend the time relabeling it to look like a different $10 tube.
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Point taken. I just couldn't find another, photo wise, that matched mine with the fabric at the base, dimple getters and different font. Just trying to get educated.
I appreciate your time.
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You need a tire I or II power tube recommended here:
https://forum.bottlehead.com/index.php?topic=663.465
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Hi I'm new here been into audio hobby since my twenties. Started with solid state until I got my first tube amp. Recently I bought a fully loaded Crack and am loving it. I'm wondering about philips 7316 on price of $390. I won't spend that kinda money on small tube unless it really performs.
I wish I could use my Baldwin 12ax7 but I guess it requires more voltage then the Crack provides? Currently running a Baldwin 12au7 and rca 6as7g. I'm seeing if I like my Bendix 6080wb that's very euphonic vs rca which produces more bass slam.
I know $$ is not a problem for you because you own WA33, Abyss 1266 and many other toys. But this is not worth the advised price.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-By-Amperex-7316-ECC186-12AU7-ECC82-NOS-NIB-Super-Rare-/164290809752
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https://www.ebay.com/itm/274653765201?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5338722076&toolid=10001
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So, I built my Crack +SB in 2014 and it's always in play with my Technics SL-1200 turntables. I recently started revisiting the Bottlehead forum after experiencing some noise (hum and buzz) and wanted to see if I could eliminate it. I ended up re-flowing all the connections and added the ground diodes. I also cleaned up some of the wire runs and shortened wires where I could.
What I discovered is that the I could achieve dead silent amplifier operation when a Chatham 6080WA and and various Tung-Sol 12AU7's were installed.
The same 6080 and one of my Channel Master 6SN7GTB's produced the same dead silence.
What gave me noise was a Chatham 2399 and various 6SN7GT's (hum and buzzing). Other than the Channel Master tubes (which are excellent!), all of the 6SN7GT's (VT-231's) experienced some humming no matter what I tried to fix.
I am guessing the noisy tubes I have are less than perfect. I have a couple of pair of RCA 6AS7G's that sound great but the glass (or other) vibrates into high pitched noise. It can be eliminated with much pressure on the tube but I know that dampeners can kill the audio. It's not so annoying for listening but is clearly audible in between tracks.
Back to the Channel Master 6SN7GTB, I was able to acquire 3 of these Mullard made (Japan) tubes for $20 per tube recently and they are outstanding. I'm not sure if they are better than the Tung-Sol 12AU7 but they are at least the equivalent. I need more time with them. I bought a 6SN7 adapter from Garage 1217 and it's very nice quality. I wanted to guard the exposed solder pads and came up with a simple plastic removable sleeve. It's actually made from just a $1 sink drain pipe from home depot. It fits perfectly and looks like it's part of the tube when placed over it. Anyway, this amplifier is just amazing in performance and simplicity (and superb electrical engineering!) It's so good I am wondering if a Crackatwoa is worth upgrading to. Or an S3X for my HE-6se and Grados (I use SS amps for them).
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I bought a 6SN7 adapter from Garage 1217 and it's very nice quality. I wanted to guard the exposed solder pads and came up with a simple plastic removable sleeve. It's actually made from just a $1 sink drain pipe from home depot. It fits perfectly and looks like it's part of the tube when placed over it. Anyway, this amplifier is just amazing in performance and simplicity (and superb electrical engineering!)
Nice job on that G1217 adapter cover, Mucker. I've been concerned with the proximity of those solder pins to the volume knob, too. I initially thought of simply putting a couple large diameter nitrile o-rings on the pins. I discovered that the problem with that candidate solution is that some nitrile is made with carbon. And carbon could create a quasi-resistor, which in turn might allow a tiny bit of current to move across the o-ring. Your solution is much better. I'm going to do what you did (1.25" diameter plastic pipe). So, thanks for posting those photos.
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Glad it can help you. I was thinking of going without but this was dead simple, plays the part, and does its' job ....
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Will a 6AS7G/6520 tube work in the Crack? Just curious as to how the tube rolling works?. I saw the tube equivalents post but not sure how it all works as I saw this tube but there was no mention of a 6520 tube. It mentioned nothing about being a power tube though. Is this the defining word I'm missing?
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A 6AS7 will work just fine. The 6080 tube (usually shipped as stock) is a ruggedized version of the 6AS7. Electrically, they are the same.
You can also use a 5998 or 7236 (which is a computer rated 5998), though they are harder to find these days.
I'm not familiar with the 6520 tube, though it's often included in the 6AS7 "family." Presumably it will work, though I'll defer to those who know more about this tube than I do.
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Thank you very much sir.
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6520 has better balanced sections, and a few other inprovements to reduce drift of characteristics as it ages. Neither is especially important in Crackbecause of the circuit (cathode follower) and the relatively low dissipation.
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Will a 6AS7G/6520 tube work in the Crack? Just curious as to how the tube rolling works?. I saw the tube equivalents post but not sure how it all works as I saw this tube but there was no mention of a 6520 tube. It mentioned nothing about being a power tube though. Is this the defining word I'm missing?
6AS7G is basically the same as 6080, just in a different glass envelope, so definitely works perfectly fine in Crack.
6520 is a "premium 6AS7G", but it is essentially either a Tung Sol/Chatham 6AS7G or a 5998. So definitely works perfectly in Crack as well.
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I've been using a 6SN7GT as my input tube (using an adapter in my Crack), and I was wondering if anyone has recommendations for another input tube. I love the 6SN7GT, but I've found that they can be a bit noisy. I've tried a few 12AU7 tubes, but I do not like the way they sound in my Crack. To my ears, they seem to lack in gain and soundstage.
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Have you thought about the 6FQ7? I think you need an adapter or rewire the socket...John
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I’ve never come across that type of tube, John. I’ll look into it. What kind do you have, and what aspects of it do you enjoy?
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6FQ7 and 6CG7 are 6SN7s in 9-pin mini bottles. For what it's worth.
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Thanks Paul! So, could I use my 6SN7 adapter on a 6FQ7 tube if I wanted to try out of one of those?
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The 6fq7 is a nine pin tube so no adaptor needed but I will check the pinouts and get back. Stand by.
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Only one snag, the heater wiring is different but it can be done.
First remove jumper between pin 4 and 5 on the 9 pin socket.
Second remove green wire from pin 9.
lastly solder green wire to pin 4.
Be advised that if want to go back to a 12au and its variants or use a 6sn7 in an adaptor you will need to change this back to the original wiring.
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If you rewire for 6CG7s, you can use a 7AU7 instead of a 12AU7 without reverting the socket to stock wiring.
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Thanks guys! If I re-wire my Crack for a 6FQ7 tube, does that mean I wouldn’t have to use an adapter for 6SN7 tubes in the future?
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You are always going to need an adaptor of some sort because the 6sn7 is an 8 pin tube that fits in an octal socket and the 6fq7 and 7au7 are 9 pin tubes that fits in a noval socket.
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No, if you make the heater wireing change you will not need an adapter...John
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I enjoy the 6SN7 variants very much, but I also love the Tung Sol 12AU7. Both are outstanding tube types. The garage adapter works perfectly and keeps the original design intact. However, I am all for the "have it your way" option if that is what you desire. That is the best thing about Bottlehead engineering. Solid if left as is with the flexibility to do many customization's to the electronics and chassis. Win, win.
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I appreciate all the help! Before I start re-wiring, I will check out the Tung Sol 12AU7. They are pretty cheap on eBay.
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I appreciate all the help! Before I start re-wiring, I will check out the Tung Sol 12AU7. They are pretty cheap on eBay.
I REALLY like that tube. Try to get a NOS tube or at least one with matching sides. Made in USA tube and not the reissue ones although I hear the reissues are not bad at all. The NOS may be slightly higher in price but I think they are worth it.
Something like these:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/143923491451?hash=item218282327b:g:Z1IAAOSwNjxgCGAP
https://www.ebay.com/itm/353519882921?hash=item524f6d52a9:g:HN0AAOSwUTxgt-pP
Enjoy!
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Thanks, Mucker! I picked up one of the NOS versions, and I appreciate the links. Excited to try out the Tung Sol 12AU7.
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Awesome, I hope you enjoy it!
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Did i just get a great deal? i won an ebay auction that included what i think are 2 Philips branded Mullard 6080's along with 2 Thomson 6080WA for under £10 delivered
Do these look legit? the mullards seem to go for £100-£200 each online
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There have been a ton of complaints about the Thomson 6080s being sold on eBay, so I would temper your expectations a little bit until you receive the tubes and try them out.
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any tips for spotting fakes?
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They are not fakes, but rather they don't seem to work properly and were possibly intended to be discarded when they were manufactured, but made it out of the plant somehow.
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I'm enjoying the Tung Sol 12AU7! I had been using the 6SN7 for so long that I forgot how quiet the Crack is. I always had some tube noises with the 6SN7, but I cannot even tell that the Crack is turned on with a 12AU7 in with no music playing haha.
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I'm enjoying the Tung Sol 12AU7! I had been using the 6SN7 for so long that I forgot how quiet the Crack is. I always had some tube noises with the 6SN7, but I cannot even tell that the Crack is turned on with a 12AU7 in with no music playing haha.
That's really great feedback and my experience as well. I could only get certain 6SN7's to be quiet when using 6080 tubes. With a 5998 all of the 6SN7 I tried have some hum, and some more than others.
However, the 12AU7 was always quiet, and the Tung Sol really performed well. I do like the 6SN7GT Channel Master tall tube with a Chatham 5998 but if I throw the TS 12AU7 in there, I am equally happy. Just great tubes both of them. Glad to hear it is working out for you!
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They are not fakes, but rather they don't seem to work properly and were possibly intended to be discarded when they were manufactured, but made it out of the plant somehow.
Very interesting! I purchased a pair of these Thompson's from "Tube Maze Store" on eBay and they turned out to be be complete garbage after a few hours use. They actually sounded very good in my Woo WA2 until they just outright quit with no signs of trying to fight death. I could never get them to work in the Crack. I could hear audio but it was whisper quiet. They are quite an attractive buy because they do sound pretty good but I would never again buy them because of their wretched history.
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Hey all,
I've been loving my Crack (pre Speedball), which came with a Sylvania 6080WB, but got a bug to try out some different tubes. So I got a Tung Sol 6080WA for $40 based on the reviews here:
https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/bottlehead-crack.120/page-3
The description of Sylvania vs Tung Sol made me wonder what I could be missing.
However, after trying both tubes, I'm not convinced the Tung Sol is much better. In fact, the Sylvania 6080WB almost seems more open and spacious. I also got a Westinghouse 6AS7GA for cheap just as something different to try. Both the Sylvania and Tung Sol seem better than the Westinghouse, but I almost prefer the stock Sylvania, maybe just because I'm used to it... Am I missing something? Am I crazy, or is the Sylvania 6080WB not as bad as the above review makes it seem? Are the Tung Sol 6080's overrated? Did I get an exceptional Sylvania?
Also, after I install the Speedball, do you think the preference of tubes will change? Is it worth swapping out the HP-branded 12au7? Maybe I should just quit since I don't know really what I'm looking for, mostly just FOMO.
Thanks for any advice!
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You should post a photo of the 6080s you have. Sometimes a tube that has a brand printed on it will actually be manufactured by a different brand.
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Am I missing something?
Only that what you like is all that matters. Plug in the one you like best and don't worry about what someone else says. Once you get past the worry over what an interweb reviewer is trying to steer you towards this hobby gets much more rewarding.
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Just for reference, here are my tubes.
Overall, after playing with them, I'm pretty impressed with the stock Sylvania tube.
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Did i just get a great deal? i won an ebay auction that included what i think are 2 Philips branded Mullard 6080's along with 2 Thomson 6080WA for under £10 delivered
Do these look legit? the mullards seem to go for £100-£200 each online
All arrived well and sound great! I love the Phillips/Mullard 6080's, it pairs really well with my Sylvania 6SN7GTB Coin base.
I think i got a great deal due to a badly worded ebay listing
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I think i got a great deal due to a badly worded ebay listing
This is my fantasy!
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I'm wondering if someone well versed in describing tonal qualities can help. I don't have a huge amount of experience with A/B testing. I recently went ahead and pulled the trigger a TS 5998 for my crack+ speedball. I am able to hear that the sound is different than the stock Raytheon 6080 WC but it's a little confusing to me. I've read so much about how great the 5988's are in the crack and I realize that everyone has their own preferences in tubes, but I'm finding the 6080 more enjoyable to listen to. I feel the 6080 is more musical and certain instrument voicing seems to be richer and almost more forward sounding. With the 5998 I feel like the sound is overall more "flat" across different instrument voice ranges. I do feel like the bass is a little more tight and noticeable with the 5998 but it doesn't seem as musical to me. The 5998 seems a little boring in comparison. I almost feel like the 5998 is more fatiguing for me and I feel the need to keep the volume down more as it's almost too much for my brain. It's not really painful per se. But I find with the 6080 I enjoy it at a louder volume (not just a higher knob setting but a higher actual volume) it's more inviting to listen to at a higher volume. BTW I'm not someone who listens to "loud" music. I typically like to listen to it just loud enough to hear the full range of frequencies. As an example I typically would listen to my crack at knob setting at about a 3-4 out of 10.
Can someone put into the appropriate "audiophile terminology" what it is I am trying to verbalize? Would it be that the the 5998 are more "linear"? Also from those who have tube rolled a lot with the crack, what are the qualities of the 5998 that people find to be desirable about it. I'm hoping that by understanding what is traditionally desirable about it I can perhaps develop an appreciation for it. Don't get me wrong, I'll ultimately listen to whichever one I enjoy the most but I'd like to educate myself in the process. I hope this is clear as I'm not really good at the moment verbalizing what I'm hearing.
Many thanks
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An interesting post as I used to struggle with the same questions - almost as if I'm missing something because I can't hear what others can.
Knowing what others are describing may aid appreciation but will it make you like it more?
Once you get past obvious inadequacies, e.g. lacking detail, it all becomes very subjective.
In the end, if you prefer one over the other that's really all that matters.
For what it's worth I thought you gave a good description of what you can hear.
I still struggle to put into words and will often rely on the foot-tap test.
If my foot starts tapping involuntarily then I know I am hearing something I like, even if I cannot objectively describe what it is that is different.
I will be interested to see other responses though, since a common understanding of terminology would be useful.
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I posted the following originally in the tube rolling thread but didn't get many replies so I decided to start a dedicated thread:
I'm wondering if someone well versed in describing tonal qualities can help. I don't have a huge amount of experience with A/B testing. I recently went ahead and pulled the trigger a TS 5998 for my crack+ speedball. I am able to hear that the sound is different than the stock Raytheon 6080 WC but it's a little confusing to me. I've read so much about how great the 5988's are in the crack and I realize that everyone has their own preferences in tubes, but I'm finding the 6080 more enjoyable to listen to. I feel the 6080 is more musical and certain instrument voicing seems to be richer and almost more forward sounding. With the 5998 I feel like the sound is overall more "flat" across different instrument voice ranges. I do feel like the bass is a little more tight and noticeable with the 5998 but it doesn't seem as musical to me. The 5998 seems a little boring in comparison. I almost feel like the 5998 is more fatiguing for me and I feel the need to keep the volume down more as it's almost too much for my brain. It's not really painful per se. But I find with the 6080 I enjoy it at a louder volume (not just a higher knob setting but a higher actual volume) it's more inviting to listen to at a higher volume. BTW I'm not someone who listens to "loud" music. I typically like to listen to it just loud enough to hear the full range of frequencies. As an example I typically would listen to my crack at knob setting at about a 3-4 out of 10.
Can someone put into the appropriate "audiophile terminology" what it is I am trying to verbalize? Would it be that the the 5998 are more "linear"? Also from those who have tube rolled a lot with the crack, what are the qualities of the 5998 that people find to be desirable about it. I'm hoping that by understanding what is traditionally desirable about it I can perhaps develop an appreciation for it. Don't get me wrong, I'll ultimately listen to whichever one I enjoy the most but I'd like to educate myself in the process. I hope this is clear as I'm not really good at the moment verbalizing what I'm hearing.
FWIW I enjoy music with varied instruments, strings, piano, brass, lighter electronica, and smooth vocals. I don't listen to much pop, hard rock, metal, or rap.
Many thanks
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I posted the following originally in the tube rolling thread but didn't get many replies so I decided to start a dedicated thread
This absolutely belongs on the tube rolling thread, so I moved it back.
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OK sounds good.
Thanks
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I believe the Crack circuit is outstanding and handles all of the tubes I've thrown at it with aplomb!
Literally, a $20 set of tubes (driver + power!) has left me totally amazed. Such an awesome kit!
Would be really fun to have a blind testing meetup, with plenty of tubes and plenty of beer of course. I'd bet there would be very low cost tubes that would surprise.
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I've read so much about how great the 5988's are in the crack and I realize that everyone has their own preferences in tubes, but I'm finding the 6080 more enjoyable to listen to.
Sometimes what we read on the internet can enlarge our expectations well beyond what reality will provide.
When people ask me open ended questions like these, I always suggest the least expensive experimenting that's possible to arrive at a satisfactory answer. If you can buy and listen to a 5998, then sell it for about what you paid for it and conclude that it's not for you, that's all the better! Personally I have a bunch of 5998s and graphite 6080s and I don't use any of them.
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Paul, I'm not quite ready to sell the 5998 and I'm not ready to conclude its not for me....yet. I want to listen to it at least 100 hours or so and then go back to the other tube and see what my impressions are at that point. Don't get me wrong, it sounds wonderful either way, I'm just trying to get a feel for what it is that people like so much about the 5998s (for those who think its the bees' knees at least). Plus I think I got a fair deal for the tube at 80 bucks so I may keep it for a spare for when tubes are no longer available on the used market.
A part of me thinks that people like the 5998 because it "looks cool" which is does. ;-)
Which tubes are your favorites for the crack, Paul?
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The Crack/C2A circuit has been a lot of fun for me. I initially thought I would want to roll tubes in it and found that the stock tubes (nothing fancy) sound outstanding and I've not rolled a thing. Every tube is a new experience and you'll be surprised by what you like compared to others. In the end it comes down to what makes you happy.
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...I'm just trying to get a feel for what it is that people like so much about the 5998s (for those who think its the bees' knees at least).
I agree with your impressions--I find my 6AS7G tubes are also "more musical" compared to a 5998. When I turn up the volume...the 6AS7G remains full-sounding and enveloping, while the 5998 sounds brighter and sometimes harsh. I'm listening with 600 Ohm AKG K240 Sextetts.
When I use my brother's Sennheiser HD 600 however... the whole synergy shifts to something more desirable. Compared to my K240, the Sennheiser sounds laid-back, and as Doc speculated I might think, "just sounds dull." I'm talking about the infamous veil of the Sennheisers. As you can imagine, brightness and a little harshness would sound totally different with the Senns, making them sound a little more lively and dynamic. As the Senns + 5998 are popular choices with the Crack, IMO I think that synergy is what many people like so much. Hope this helps.
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Thanks for your input Larcenasb. I actually use the Senn HD6xx with the the 5998 and still get that bit of harshness. I'll admit though that since I posted I've tried a 12BH7A for my input tube and I have to say I like it a lot better in combination with the 5998 (vs the 12AU7A).Overall the combination is very impressive sounding but now I need to go back and compare to the 6080 which I haven't yet heard with the 12BH7A. I still think the 5998 can be a little harsh with the new input tube but I certainly like it better than with the 12AU7A. One thing's to be said though, the TS 5998 looks absolutely killer... Regardless, with any combination of tubes I've tried yet, all of them sound great with the crack....
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Yeah, I guess we should state the whole audio chain because it all contributes of course haha.
With the Senn HD 600: If I use the S.M.S.L Sanskrit 10th annv. DAC, then the 5998 can sound harsh. If I use my Sylvania grey-plate 12AU7, then the 5998 can sound harsh. But before the Speedball upgrade, the 5998 always sounded controlled and never harsh.
Here's the audio chain for a dynamic sound that isn't harsh for me: AudioQuest DragonFly v1.0 -> Bottlehead Crack + Speedball w/ Tung-Sol 5998 & RCA 6SN7GT (w/ adapter) -> Senn HD 600
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I have been immersed in tube audio for 25 years and in that time (mostly early on) I've bought dozens and dozens of NOS and OS tubes. I've learned that fetishizing any particular tube is pointless. Given that we all hear differently and have different systems, no one tube is going to be guaranteed to sound either great or horrible. It all just depends.
Yes, objectively there are better built tubes that will last longer than lesser built tubes, but what's the point if you don't like the way they sound to your ears in the equipment you have?
It's fun to tube roll, but with prices getting so crazy for the vintage stuff, I don't think it makes sense to spend more than, say, $50-$75 for the kinds of tubes we're talking about here (6AS7s, 6080s, 5998s, 6SN7s, 12AU7s). Chances are slim you'll hear a sonic difference commensurate with the cost. You might get lucky and buy just the right vintage tube for your sonic taste (and system synergy), but the odds are against it. I have boxes and boxes of vintage tubes that, although they're fine tubes, they didn't quite give me the sound I was looking for.
It's worth remembering that posts about vintage tubes on the internet from 20 years ago are from a whole other era: tube audio was still a very small niche market in audio (at least in the U.S.), and the availability of desirable NOS tubes was huge compared to now. It was so easy to buy tubes then that are now nearly extinct, and often for as little as $10-$20 a piece. It was cheap to tube roll all sorts of tubes from the 1940s and 1950s.
But that era is gone, and so when we read a 20 year old post on some audio forum that insists we just have to hear tube "X," keep in mind it was written during a time when it was relatively cheap and easy to do so. That window closed fast (by the mid aughts, as I recall).
Being more specific, vintage Tung Sol 5998s are a well made tube. 5998s have lower output impedance than a 6AS7 or a 6080, so with headphones like many Sennheisers, they sound brighter and faster. If your system sounds a little dull and sluggish, a 5998 might be just the thing. But there's no sonic magic lurking inside its glass.
I listen through Sennheiser HD800s (which, granted, are brighter than the 6xx series), and I'm perfectly content listening to a (relatively) inexpensive '60s-era RCA 6AS7 as a cathode follower. I also have such storied tubes as a TS 5998, a TS 7236, and a Mullard CV2984, but none sound "better" to my ears through my system than the plain Jane RCAs.
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I've learned that fetishizing any particular tube is pointless.
You'll have to let us know how long that took!
I also have such storied tubes as a TS 5998, a TS 7236, and a Mullard CV2984, but none sound "better" to my ears through my system than the plain Jane RCAs.
You're reminding me that I should be selling my 5998s and CV2984s...
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You'll have to let us know how long that took!
I'm embarrassed to admit that the lesson didn't fully sink in until early 2020, after I built my Kaiju and bought my first pair of Western Electric tubes: the 396A ('60s vintage). At last, I had my hands on fabled Western Electric tubes! Maybe "fetishized" is a bit hyperbolic, but I was prepared to be sonically transported to a land of audio bliss after I installed them and powered up the Kaiju.
Meh.
That was the straw that broke the camel's back. Call me a slow learner.
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I just got a new 12AU7 (1950s RCA black plates) that has a faint and constant hiss in the left channel. Switching to other 12AU7s makes the hiss go away. The loudness of the hiss is the same whether the volume knob is turned all the way down or all the way up. When music plays with low volume, I can hear it; with medium-loud volume, I faintly hear it.
Is there a typical cause for this kind of hiss? And is there anything I can do to fix it? Thanks.
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I believe it's usually in the cathode coating, either interface resistance or the cathode is not fully formed. In the latter case, it may go away with the usual 50-100 hours running time. If it's interface, it's a used tube and won't go away.
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The tube tested 82/80 on a "calibrated Precision 612 vacuum tube tester" where the minimum reading is 46/46. The seller didn't say what a typical new tube would test at, but looking at photos online shows this tester's scale goes up to 100. So, I guess it's a used tube?
But since the tube was just a few dollars, rather than return it, I'll use the opportunity to learn and see if "the cathode is not fully formed." I'll run it for 100 hours and see if the hiss goes away. Thanks, Paul. Always great to hear from you. Cheers
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I have a precision 612. 80 is typically considered the lowest rating you would expect for a new tube. I've had brand new 12AU7s fresh from sealed boxes only read 80 on the meter, and I've had used Russian 12AU7s peg the meter, so there isn't really much information there beyond there being adequate emission.
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Thanks PB! Always nice to hear from you too! So, hopefully, the tube is new or newish and the cathode is not fully formed. I'm excited for this test, running it for 100 hours to see what happens. I'll report back. Cheers :)
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Larpy is the most excellent voice of reason here. I agree 110%. Re the last two posts, the same historical inflation due to necroposts about "what's best" goes for tube testers. I bought my TV-10 D/U in 1991 for $50. I've sold testers for $750 in more recent years. The very best tube tester is the device you intend to run the tube in, so I wouldn't be too concerned about "80%" etc.
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Here's an update on that 12AU7 I got that had the constant hiss in the left channel. After just 2 hours of running them, the hiss volume went quite low. If it was 6/10 before, it then went down to 2/10. After 3 hours, the left channel started crackling. There would be the slight hiss then a couple seconds of crackle-crackle-crackle, then just slight hiss again, then more crackles. The crackles are like rice crispies and aluminum foil being crumpled in front of my ear. At this point, I turned off my amp and came to check in. Is it safe to keep running the amp, to try and see if the hiss will go away, if there are crackles? Is the tube dying? Thanks so much.
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Crackle is more of what we would expect from oxidized tube pins or possibly a solder joint that isn't quite 100%.
You can clean the tube pins gently with steel wool and you may find that crackling goes away, just be sure you get any loose fibers off the pins when you're finished.
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It’s funny. I was reading this thread about a 12AU7 that hisses and I have one of those. It’s a modern Northern Electric 12AU7. Some people review them favourably so I added one to an order of vintage tubes I bought a couple years ago. It was the most expensive and also the worst sounding of the bunch, or so I thought. It hissed loudly enough that I never used it. I just went to set the Crack up in a corner to let it burn in this hissy tube, but I plugged in a GE 6080 I haven’t been getting along with that well so as not to put unnecessary hours on a tube I enjoy. A quick check on the headphones to see how it’s sounding at the beginning of the experiment and the hiss is missing. Could it be that it had a reaction with my other preferred tubes? Maybe whatever I don’t like about the GE 6080 also happens to defeat the hiss noise? Maybe my ears are that much worse since I last tried that tube? Who knows?
Edit: oh wait, there’s a 60Hz hum or something there too.. I’ll let it run all day today but after that I’m done with that tube. I can’t see the point of messing around with it when there are plenty of very good cheap tubes around, several of which I already own. I can accept that sometimes you get a dud. Maybe it could work in a guitar amp.
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Thanks Paul & monsterdonkey.
Paul, this is the only tube I have (of many) that exhibits crackling sounds, so I'm hoping my solder joints are all good (my Crack has been running perfectly since 2014). I cleaned the tube pins with steel wool and the crackling went away!
So, I'm continuing running the tube for 100 hours. About 9 hours in now, the hiss sound in the left channel is very low. It's now at 1.5/10. Will update after 50 hours. Thanks again for your help. :)
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Update on 12AU7 left-channel hiss:
So, to recap, after 2 hours the hiss volume decreased and there was a short episode of crackling. Cleaning the tube pins seemed to fix the crackles.
Now, the hiss has been a consistently low volume. But after 25 hours, the hiss started gradually getting louder (lasted about 10 seconds), then some crackling occurred (lasted 5 seconds), then the crackles went away and the hiss went back to the earlier low volume. This was all just in the left channel; the right channel has no problems.
Are these new details indicative of anything in particular, just a bad tube maybe?
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Do voltage checks with that tube. Let us know. These can help pinpoint the problem.
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Have you left the amp on since the 19th?
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Hi Tom-s, I can try to do the voltage checks this weekend.
Hi Paul, I was home all day on the 19th and 20th, so ran it for 24 hours. Besides that, I've just been running it when I can.
Here's my log:
9/18 - 2 hours
9/19 - 24 hours
9/22 - 5 hours
9/24 - 3 hours
Total so far: 34 hours
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OK. Turn it on now, then leave it on till Tuesday and let us know how the noise is after that.
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Alright, will report back on Tuesday. Thanks, Paul.
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Update: Ran the amp nonstop from Friday to Tuesday and the hiss is still present along with intermittent buzzing. I then switched to another tube and no problems at all. So, I just got a noisy tube it seems? Nothing can be done to fix it?
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That could indeed be the case. Occasionally you'll get a tube that's more sensitive to external interference for one reason or another and a different tube won't pick up any noise.
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Alright, it was still a good experience of troubleshooting and learning. Now time to enjoy my 6F8G tubes via an adapter. Cheers and thanks for your help, Paul.
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Hi guys,
First of all, I'm pretty new to all this :) I don't really know anything about tubes and rolling them :)
I'm coming from HD598... which stopped working earlier this year. I found that HD6xx were on sale, and since I heard a lot of good things about these headphones, decided to order them.
When I got them I realized they need an amp.
Back in the day I once heard a tube speaker amplifier which absolutely blown me away. It was Jolida.
In any case, figured that if I'm going to get an amp for the headphone, I might as well go with tubes. So here I am with the crack :)
I was very excited to hear that amp. And after I build it I absolutely loved the sound. Then came the speedball...
I'm not sure if I did something wrong when building it. All the voltages are ok, the amp is dead quiet when nothing is playing but I just found it too bright, my ears would fatigue very quickly.
I decided to remove the small board, but I also read that this issue can be fixed with tubes, especially Mullards? The thing is I don't know where to find them, there are old and new and I'm lost.
Would anybody here be able to help me to find the right tubes? I'm after that warm tubey sound but also want to keep the speedball as I can hear the difference in detail and clarity.
I'm living in Australia so these aren't that easy to find. I ordered one Mullard tube from here thevalvestore com au , but I'm not even sure if that's the right one... :)
Any help and advice will be much appreciated
Thanks
Michal
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No, that's a new production Russian tube. When people are recommending Mullard tubes, usually it's the old ones from Great Britain.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/133890692536?hash=item1f2c81d5b8%3Ag%3Aa-cAAOSw3%7EBhFuQX&LH_ItemCondition=3000 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/133890692536?hash=item1f2c81d5b8%3Ag%3Aa-cAAOSw3%7EBhFuQX&LH_ItemCondition=3000)
Something like that would do the job.
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Hi there, welcome to the club!
You can search auction sites for the crème de la crème Mullards. Just make sure the seller posts the test results and has 100% feedback, of course. Here are some details you need to know about Mullards you're looking for:
- Can be designated as a 12AU7, ECC82, or CV491
- Made in the Blackburn plant in England during the 1950s
- Construction: 17mm long plates, has a square getter or O getter on top
- Date code: K61 (also, you can look for K62 versions, which were made after)
When I search auction sites, I just search "k61 tube" to lasso in the most listings. Some people like the CV4003 or other types, but most collectors, including myself, have found the k61 really is the very best of Mullard 12AU7 tubes. It sounds closer to an octal type than any miniature tube I've heard: it has a big, effortless, tonally rich, and natural sound.
The Mullard you got may be good, I haven't heard it...Let us know. It's a new-production tube and was made in Russia though. Mullard is famous for their made-in-England tubes from WWII-era and the 1950s, so if you can deal with the prices, it's worth having a listen while they're still available. Because, obviously, these older tubes aren't being made anymore and will eventually become extinct. In that sense, we're lucky we live in this age to be able to enjoy them. :)
Some other options:
- Amperex 7316 Long Plate Foil Getter (also rich and warm, but not to the extent of Mullard, also pricey)
- RCA 1950s long black plates square getter (also rich and warm, more rolled off treble, can be found significantly cheaper)
- Raytheon, RCA, Ken-Rad, National Union, Tung-Sol 6SN7GT [using a 6SN7 to 12AU7 6.3V adapter] (WWII-era octal tubes that have nice bloat in the upper bass and lower mids compared to most 12AU7 types, RCA and Raytheon can be found significantly cheaper, the Tung-Sol is the other consensus holy grail tube like the Mullard that sounds wonderfully natural and easy to listen to but is going for insane prices these days)
- Use a 6AS7G type output tube (I've found this has a more drastic change on the sound compared to input tube rolling, input tubes can slightly color the sound better though, the 6AS7G is warmer and more spacious sounding in my experience compared to 6080 types)
Be warned this obsession has become a black hole for many of us. Perhaps, you'd be best served to just take out the Speedball, if you loved that sound already... Cheers :)
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Wow, thanks guys for the advice... and a warring :) ... that being said... are these any good? :D (see attachments)
I will definitely let you know how's that Mullard that I already ordered, but I don't have high hopes after Paul's replay.
I will keep an eye on for the ones you mentioned, larcenasb, thanks very much for your extensive replay
I've seen the mention of CV4003 in different posts, but the one I found seems to be "new" as you can choose different options? Like Low Noise & Microphonics? So I'm not sure if that's the right one.
The other one I found when I looked for K61 is 1958 Mullard, but it's labeled as HEATH. I've seen posts that the NOS ones are the ones to look for?
All of this is so confusing :D
To make things worse, should I be looking for a different power tube as well? It's getting pretty expensive.. :/
I just really want to learn to love that Speedball, so I'm willing to give few tubes a go, to see If I can find some middle ground, but at the same time, don't want to go too crazy.
After all, this whole thing started to replace 10 years old $150 headphones, and now I'm more than $900 in already :D ... one step at a time they say :)
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Why do you want to spend hundreds of dollars on tubes?
I linked you to an $8 used Mullard, why don't you buy that and see if you like it first?
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I don’t Paul, I’ve already ordered the one you’re liked.
Thank you for that!
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Tube rolling can be fun and costly and all that, but as the differences can be quite subtle (I’ve found I like tubes I thought I didn’t like on different days) why not try adjusting the tone controls or equalizer on your source machine and see if you can get it closer to your preference that way?
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Hey all, i finished my kit a few weeks ago and am looking to roll around. I want to start with some of the tubes i yave left over from my guitar days and when searching i came across this guy.
A JAN Philips 5751
Since this is a 12ax7 type normally i would try, but here is an interesting thing about it:
The 5751 is not a true 12AX7, but is often used in place of a 12AX7. They should have approximately 70% of the gain of a 12AX7, and are often used to quiet down guitar amps that have too much gain. If you have gain to spare using a 5751 tube will greatly improve your overall tone without making your preamp excessively clean.
With this said, is this something that can be safe on a BHC + SB or is it still going to be too much?
Thanks for the help!
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The 5751 requires a much higher plate voltage than is available in the Crack.
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Other than the plate voltage problem, more gain in the Crack is not something considered desirable.
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Thanks for confirming guys, I figured the lower gain 5751 would still be too far off.
I bought a few of these for $15-20 a piece and now they are much rarer. I most likely will sell them and grab what i need.
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Re: crackling in tubes, what's your opinion on reflowing the solder inside of the pins? Let's say I have a power tube with thick pins that crackles and other tubes don't (so it is not an amp issue). Cleaning pins does not help
Is sucking the solder with vacuum and putting a new one a good idea? I've heard some people do it.
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If only that tube presents problems and you have many others that work fine, I wouldn't focus so hard on the amp.
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Reflowing tube pins is done more often with older four pin DHTs, as they were more susceptible to the joints inside the pins oxidizing with time and the glass coming loose in the base, allowing stress on the pin connections. I might be inclined to install the 6080, invert the amp, fire it up and wiggle the socket connections at each pin while listening for the noise. Obviously you want to use headphones you can afford to sacrifice for this kind of test. If you can make it happen by working the contacts it might be worth attempting a reflow - or you may have located a bad contact between the pin and the socket. Chances are good that the crackling is due to some other internal, mechanical issue in the tube.
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Oh, the solder in the pins themselves? I have done this a bunch on 4 pin tube bases, but never on an octal that I can remember. You could touch the tip of your iron to each socket pin and let the solder reheat and flow out a bit more.
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I have a Garage 6SN7 to 12AU7 and it works perfectly. I've rolled many 6SN7 tubes.
I have Siemens C3G tubes. https://www.tubedepot.com/products/siemens-c3g-pentode
Can I use https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/201814708334 to adapt it to 6SN7 and then to 12AU7 via Garage adaptor? Or does it look unrealistic?
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I have a Garage 6SN7 to 12AU7 and it works perfectly. I've rolled many 6SN7 tubes.
I have Siemens C3G tubes. https://www.tubedepot.com/products/siemens-c3g-pentode
Can I use https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/201814708334 to adapt it to 6SN7 and then to 12AU7 via Garage adaptor? Or does it look unrealistic?
We use both halve of the 12AU7, so a triode strapped C3G will not be a suitable substitute. Depending on what's going on in the adapter, you could cause serious damage to the amp or the 6080 if you tried this.
The C3G has way too much gain for the Crack circuit anyway.
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Hey all, recently bought my first tube to try tube rolling with, a Tung Sol 6520 with the domino plates on ebay. The seller said it had plenty of life in the listing, however when I plug it in the left channel is there but almost inaudible. If I crank up the volume all the way I can hear it better but then the right is way too loud. Volume is fine in both channels with the original 6080. Does this mean one of the triodes is dying and it's a bad tube, or is there something I can do? Thanks
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I would return that tube.
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Hey there! I recently sold a working Crack w/ SB. The buyer says that he is getting very low volume. I was wondering if this could be a bad tube? I did give him extra power and input tubes that he could try. I'm guessing I should ask him to try all tube configurations to see if that helps? Any other suggestions? As mentioned, I know this amp worked fine when I listened to it before selling it last week. I am wondering if one of the tubes went bad or was damaged in shipping. Makes me nervous as I have never sold anything that didn't work as intended! The Crack came pre-assembled to me, so I have zero knowledge or skills in diagnosing anything wrong with the electronics but I suspect that it's either tube-related or maybe a configuration error. Any help would be greatly appreciated!
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Yes, of course have him try the other tubes. Also be sure he isn't using some completely weird headphone that is expecting a lot more power.
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Hello fellow Crack lovers! I have been enjoying my crack for about 4 years and added the SB upgrade about two years ago. I wont turn this into a troubleshooting post, but I suspect my stock Phillips JAN 6080WC is having... issues and seems to be getting worse. I figured now was the perfect time to try something new. I really don't have any experience with tubes other than what I received stock (previously mentioned 6080 and what I think is a Westinghouse 12au7).
Skimming this forum and others I thought I might try a 6N13S. I see a few for cheap on eBay but don't want to wait 4-6 weeks for it to arrive from Russia. Looking at thetubestore.com they have more reasonable shipping times but higher prices, which makes sense. They are selling a Russian 6N13S for $26 and a Winged "C" 6N13S for $50. Both descriptions say they were manufactured by SED in St. Petersburg.
My questions are: What is the difference? Is it really just a difference in logo or is there something more than that to justify twice the price? It says production has ended for winged C, but wouldn't that mean the same for the other tube? I have read good things about the =C= but I don't know if the same applies for the Russian 6N13S. Finally, I was thinking of picking up a spare 12au7 while I am at it. Any recommendations for if I should just grab another NOS 12au7 or should I try one of the reissues or a ECC82? I know a lot of it is personal preference, but I am kinda lost and mostly going off the recommendations on the internet. Any insight would be much appreciated! Thanks!
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For 12AU7s, I would look for random used tubes on eBay that are tested. Something like this is probably OK:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/284469134007?hash=item423bae82b7%3Ag%3AFZAAAOSww5FhU6ls&LH_ItemCondition=4 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/284469134007?hash=item423bae82b7%3Ag%3AFZAAAOSww5FhU6ls&LH_ItemCondition=4)
Something like this maybe for 6080s:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/144356020207?hash=item219c4a0fef:g:M~QAAOSweYZh0xKC (https://www.ebay.com/itm/144356020207?hash=item219c4a0fef:g:M~QAAOSweYZh0xKC)
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So I tried the Winged C manufacture of the 6H13C. Seems to have really low gain (like, I have to crank it up to 80% to hear my music). That's with my DAC volume out fixed. Any suggestions on what to do? The 6AS7GA that came with my kit has such high gain that I can't use it without reducing the volume out from my DAC.
Or is it related to the power tube?
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The 6080/6AS7 should make very little difference in terms of overall gain. If you have the Speedball installed, it would be interesting to know the OA/OB voltages on both the big and the small boards with that 6H13C installed, as that may tell you if you have a dead tube.
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The 6080/6AS7 should make very little difference in terms of overall gain. If you have the Speedball installed, it would be interesting to know the OA/OB voltages on both the big and the small boards with that 6H13C installed, as that may tell you if you have a dead tube.
I haven't installed the Speedball yet. Sure hoping I don't have a bad tube (it was $50 and I'm outside the return period now). Is there any way I can confirm whether the tube is working? It does glow, just really low gain.
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Well if sound comes out technically the tube is working.
What are the voltages at terminals 1, 5, 7, and 9?
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Well if sound comes out technically the tube is working.
What are the voltages at terminals 1, 5, 7, and 9?
1 and 5, 100 volts each
7 and 9, 4 volts each. That's with the winged C tube. As of yesterday with the tube the kit shipped with, everything was in the specified ranges stated in the manual.
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4V at 7 and 9 would mean you have a very dead tube. You also shouldn't really be getting any sound of out of the amp.
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4V at 7 and 9 would mean you have a very dead tube. You also shouldn't really be getting any sound of out of the amp.
Alright, that's kind of what I figured is it's on its way out. The amp itself seems fine with other tubes and I get very minimal sound (if any, it's unpredictable) with the aftermarket tube. Thanks for the help!
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On its way out would be having your 100V at 1 and 5 and seeing some number slightly above 100 on 7 and 9. 4V is barely alive, does the tube glow well?
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On its way out would be having your 100V at 1 and 5 and seeing some number slightly above 100 on 7 and 9. 4V is barely alive, does the tube glow well?
The weird thing is that it's still glowing visibly. Do I possibly have something miswired?
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If your amp was miswired, how would it work with your other tube?
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I've confirmed it was the tube at fault. Ordered a very similar tube from the same manufacturer and am hearing a much better gain from it. Whatever the issue is, it's definitely a problem in the one tube.
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"You just finished the amp," I told myself. "Just relax and enjoy the jams."
"You don't need to read that 160-something page thread of people talking about vacuum tubes, my inner monologue said. "Mellow out. These are not the droids you're looking for."
"Okayyyyy, maybe one peek down the rabbit hole..."
Five minutes later, tracking numbers for five packages from three different countries are in my inbox.
There should be a tubes anonymous hotline.
Oddly, I've owned a Manley integrated for a long time and never been to into rolling. (Probably because exotic EL84s get stupidly expensive when you need 8, matched. But I bought some great sounding new stock Mullards for the inputs and replaced the drivers when one died. Set n' forget.) It's different with the Crack. The stakes are lower and the options and sonic effects seem endless. So far I've treated this a bit like gambling - small bets on used, vintage, possibly-questionable long shots. I'm sure I'll eventually settle down with some spendy NOS's, but for now I'm finding it fun to research oddball OEM versions, which seems like a good way to get a sense of the various name-brand flavors without shelling out too much. I also like the idea of up-cycling a tube someone pulled out of an old church organ. I’d love to hear of any favorite oddballs folks have run across.
I do have one question for PB, if he's read this far. While I wait for stuff in the mail, I have a spare 12bh7AEH (assume the 'EH' is for Electro Harmonix) from the Manley and I've read various opinions on using them. I know you don't recommend using this tube in a stock Crack and recommend some resistor changes in the Speedball Crack, but I'm wondering if you mean "don't-recommend-it-causes-distortion" or "dont-recommend-you'll-blow-your-amp-up"? I'd be pairing it with a Hewlett Packard 6as7g I bought for like $10, if that's relevant. Love your thoughts, or thoughts from anyone else who's tried it on a non-SB crack.
Keep rollin.
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The 12BH7 needs some tweaks for the voltages to come out about the same as the stock circuit. In the stock circuit, the plate voltage would end up being pretty low and I think the 22.1K resistors would burn up. I don't see a good way to run the 12BH7 in the stock circuit without changing out the LEDs for cathode bias resistors and changing the 22.1K plate loading resistors for something with a different value and a much higher wattage rating.
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Whew, I am getting ready to try a 12BH7A once I get my new transistors for the SB board. I had to go back and read the last reply relieved to hear it was with stock Crack about burning things up.
Can an E80CC be tried in a stock Crack (no SB) without worry or does it take some serious modding? The E80CC is pretty amazing IMO.
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E80CC in a stock Crack is close enough to try. Changing the 22K resistors for 33K/1W would be a good idea if you're committed to the E80CC.
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Ah nice, great info.
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Indeed, thanks for the info Paul. I’ll leave that bh7 in the drawer.
E80cc sounds interesting, though!
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The E80CC is a great tube IMO but they are rare and expensive now. I am actually going to try the 12BH7 route because of the price and availability now. Will be interesting to know how it will stack up against the E80CC. I also want to try the 6CG7 (apparently a 6SN7 equivalent) but socket rewiring is required which doesn't look too difficult. You may not need Speedball for a 6CG7 and socket rewire but PB would have to confirm that.
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My ON MJE5731AG transistors arrived today and I swapped them out on the Speedball boards so that I could use the 12BH7A safely. I have 470 ohm resistors permanently installed on the boards so that I can run my favorite tube, the E80CC. To run the Matsushita 12BH7A, I soldered on 150ohm resistors in parallel to arrive at 113 ohms. T1 and T5 voltages ended up being 74.8/73.0.
The tube sounds outstanding with a Chatham 2399 power tube and my new HD-600. I need to compare it more to E80CC but right now sounds just as good. They are more affordable and available than E80CC so that is a plus.
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E80CC in a stock Crack is close enough to try. Changing the 22K resistors for 33K/1W would be a good idea if you're committed to the E80CC.
Hi Paul, is this the only required change if i want to run an E800CC long term? TY.
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Hi Paul, is this the only required change if i want to run an E800CC long term? TY.
How long would you like your amp to last?
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Well, I'm 57 so it's not going too be to long. Hopefully 10 more years if I'm lucky. Ears are still amazingly in good shape for being in the mining industry my whole life.
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You'll want to change around those resistor values then I think.
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OK, thanks! I want to give a good long listen to my Tung Sol NOS 12AU7's and those Nichicon coupling caps before I get too excited about doing anything. Could be a while but I will definitely use this info going forward. Appreciate it!
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Howdy all. New to Tube rolling with a Bottlehead Crack 1.1 w/SB.
To get a sense of "the extremes", what would be two VERY different sounding input tubes and two very different sounding power tubes I could try in the Crack to help develop my ear for tubes?
I guess I'd like to stay under about $25/tube for this experiment... but can go higher if there's a reasonable resale market for a particular suggestion.
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Hi tlite,
For about $25/tube, you'll have to do some searching or be patient on auction sites. People are really overcharging for tubes these days...
I think two very different-sounding input tubes would be: RCA 12AU7 clear top & Brimar CV4003
And two very different-sounding output tubes would be: any generic U.S.-made 6080 (like the ones usually included in the Crack kit) & any generic U.S.-made 6AS7G (RCA is the most common, and Sylvania, G.E., Raytheon are other budget options, these all seem to sound very close to one another.)
I've tried many, many tubes in the Crack+SB and I think what I suggested is a reasonable place to start. Once you're ready for the next step, getting a 6.3V 6SN7-to-12AU7 adapter with any U.S.-made 6SN7GT will tend to have a significant difference in sound to most 12AU7 types, and it's a well-regarded tube type in the audio world. Have fun and be sure to report back differences you hear with whatever tubes you end up buying. Cheers!
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Hi all,
I'm new here, just finished my Crack (no Speedball) that came with GE 6AS7GA and RCA 12AU7 (not clear top).
My tube rolling experience so far:
- Winged "C" 6H13C power tube: I like this much more than the stock GE tube. It has better staging, it sounds more 'open' with better imaging without being hollow or thin. In comparison, the GE tube is more 'congested'.
- Genalex ECC82 Gold Lion preamp tube: all reviews praised this and it has a very clear, nimble, 'decent' sound but the bass amount is significantly lower and the overall warmth is gone. I prefer the stock RCA tube because it has a fuller, warmer, more engaging sound. I still keep the Genalex tube because classical music sounds awesome with it but the majority of the time I listen to the RCA.
Does anybody know if there is a difference between the RCA clear top and not-clear top?
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RCA 12AU7 are usually the cheapest and among the best tubes for Crack. Unlike power tubes, here price does not normally correlate with quality. With power tubes 5889 and GEC are normally much better than stock
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I’ve got a few RCA 12AU7 variants including a clear top, a grey plate, and a black plate 5963. They all sound great with my TS/Chatham 2399. The clear top is a little bright with my GE 6080, but good with the 2399 and 6AS7G. I think what I’m looking for changes from time to time. Sometimes a dark recording needs that little top end boost. The other day I plugged my Sennheiser HD600 directly into my NAD C740, which I can’t remember doing since building the Crack almost ten years ago because why would I, and was pleasantly surprised.
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........ the donkey was large ... big .... huge ... gigantic ..... it was a Monster ..... a monsterdonkey! I have nothing else .......
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RCA 12AU7 are usually the cheapest and among the best tubes for Crack. Unlike power tubes, here price does not normally correlate with quality. With power tubes 5889 and GEC are normally much better than stock
I can see RCA 12AU7 and RCA 12AU7A? Any significant difference between these?
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No, the A suffix means it works properly in circuit with lots of tube heaters strung together in series. This isn't something you're going to run into much in modern HiFi.
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Hi, I am new here. Can Russian 6H5C (6N5S) use directly in Crack 1.1? Thanks in advance ...
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Yes.
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Good day. I have another question, can E80CC be used directly in Crack 1.1 without speed ball upgrade? I have speed ball kit but not yet implement. I am planning to enjoy Crack original version for a while, then only upgrade to speed ball version.
Thank you.
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I would change the 22.1K plate loading resistors to 47K/2W resistors if you want to do that.
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Hello everyone,
I performed some mods to my crack w/speedball which I can get into detail about later, but for now I just wanted to get some opinions on this because the mods aren't relevant to my question.
I swapped the 12AU7 to a Valvo 45 degree getter ECC82. The listing I bought was $68 and didn't contain a date of manufacture or testing information but I just wanted to spend as little money as possible to get a feel for this tube. I heard the ECC82 to aim for is the Valvo ECC82 Long Plate Foil D Getter 56' but they are $500≥ on ebay and I wasn't sure I was willing to drop that much on a tube.
I think the tube sounds great despite how much I paid for it. The bass has been improved significantly and the music feels closer or more present like I'm in between the sound. I guess if I'm getting really nitpicky, the treble sounds a little muddier but I will have to swap back and see. The only real issue is I hear a hiss that remains a static volume regardless of the volume knob position that is predominantly in the left channel. When I'm playing music, I obviously don't really notice it but I just wanted to hear if there is anything I can do about it or if I simply get what I pay for(I'm assuming the latter is true.)
I would leave a link to the listing here but I guess I'm not allowed. so if you really care to check out the listing yourself to see how much of a gamble it was: ebay . com/itm/155521619912
I also don't know what the numbers on the sticker indicate but I assume the testing information? I can take some photos of it myself because I know the listing photos are really difficult to make out. It seems like the sticker reads 11.0 and 9.5 but I'm really uncertain.
EDIT - 01/30/2024: I am letting the tube burn in because I looked around online and that is what many others suggested including Mucker who replied below this post. From what I can tell now thinking about it/listening, the hiss is definitely dissipating and has gotten significantly better since I initially powered it on.
I created this post to ask about the hiss but my true question stems from a bit of FOMO. Is there a lot I could be missing out on by using my tube instead of the very specific version I mentioned above that is manufactured in 1956? To put it another way, what really distinguishes my tube (which I assume was manufactured more recently and is therefore cheaper) from the other listings that seem to be confirmed to have been manufactured in 1956? I'm really enjoying it and don't see why I would want to buy another one other than to say I have it at this point, or to find one that tests better.
I know I won't receive an answer that satisfies my line of questioning without being able to directly compare my tube to the more sought after and expensive version but I just thought I would ask because this question isn't really limited to this tube. So considering the following question that is broadly applicable to any tube, why are the newer versions/recreations cheaper and less sought after? Is it a classic case of elitism? Or are there genuine differences in how they are manufactured that could lead to different sounds? And should I even care? :)
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I also don't know what the numbers on the sticker indicate but I assume the testing information? I can take some photos of it myself because I know the listing photos are really difficult to make out. It seems like the sticker reads 11.0 and 9.5 but I'm really uncertain.
That's the test result. The listing states it was tested on a Funke W19s.
This is a quality emission tester from Funke. That has a regulated anode voltage (150V voltage reg tube) and tests at 0 or -2V bias.
In case of the 12AU7 / ECC82 it tests as a diode.
To compare what would be the estimated result I allways suggest to look up other listings with tubes from this the tester used in the add. This gives a better idea of what the result should be.
As it now supposedly is tested "gut"/ good. The Funke is known as a tester that make's every tube look "good".
But this isn't whole story. Good on testers is a very widely used term.
When a tube gets more use; it wears out the cathode. And the insulation between heater and cathode may get small cracks. That can be heard as a hiss when used.
The following information is borrowed from a French forum.
First is the tube curves for ECC82 and how it should test in the Funke.
Second is a picture of the Funke W19. As you can see a good ECC82 is 17-20mA or thereabouts.
Curves. (https://6bm8-lab.fr/phpBB/download/file.php?id=10546&sid=c91a707cb244e4993d77514d92326ab5)
Funke ECC82. (https://6bm8-lab.fr/phpBB/download/file.php?id=10547&sid=c91a707cb244e4993d77514d92326ab5)
Hope this helps anyone for future purchases.
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Hello Tom!
Thank you for the insightful reply, I learned a lot and really appreciate it. :D
I think you provided the answer to my main question when you said the following:
When a tube gets more use; it wears out the cathode. And the insulation between heater and cathode may get small cracks. That can be heard as a hiss when used.
I think my misunderstanding was in thinking that these tubes are even made anymore. I just assumed people were going after the 1956 versions because they were the "originals." When in reality, I think what you are telling me is that any sought after tubes were only produced for a limited amount of time, and that the ones that go for more money are the ones that have the least amount of usage and therefore test well after all this time. I am easily confused with all these iterations of what seems to be the same tube with only a couple years between the manufacturing date and various descriptors that attempt to uniquely identify each listing.
My interpretation of your reply might still be wrong but I think I understand it now. If I am wrong and there are "re-issues" of vintage tubes than feel free to answer my only remaining question, why would people go for vintage stock when there are re-issues that very likely have less cathode wear?
I want to be certain that my previous question isn't one that warrants a response because you cleared everything up pretty well. But I have a proclivity of casting a healthy amount of doubt on my interpretations just in case ;)
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why would people go for vintage stock when there are re-issues that very likely have less cathode wear?
The reissues that do exist don't really sound anything like the originals. The old stock tubes tend to also last a whole lot longer than the new ones, though there have been some improvements over the last few decades.
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The reissues that do exist don't really sound anything like the originals. The old stock tubes tend to also last a whole lot longer than the new ones, though there have been some improvements over the last few decades.
Hello Paul!
That's interesting, I will keep that in mind going forward. And thank you guys for responding so quickly, I didn't expect all my questions to be answered so efficiently.
After having swapped back to my 12AU7, I can say for certain that there is noticeable difference in clarity compared to my ECC82. I didn't know how to evaluate test results until Tom explained it and provided the image showing the tube should land at at 17-20mA on the Funke. My ECC82 sticker says 11.0 and 9.5 :o
Now I understand why I got it for $68. :-[
Oh also, my ECC82 is labeled K63 D9R, just noticed that recently as I was swapping the tubes out. Not sure what to make of that but I'm going to look around and determine what I even have because the ebay listing didn't specify the year or anything really. I think 63 means 1963 but I will set aside the speculation lol
Do you have any 12AU7 sub ins that you would recommend I take a look at if I'm trying to aim more bass heavy? I absolutely loved the bass when using the ECC82 and I think it helps that I'm also using the Tung-Sol 5998 in place of the 6080.
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If you have a Speedball in your Crack, what are the OA and OB voltages on the small board with that tube? That can be used as a bit of a test for whether the 12AU7 is near the end of its life or is relatively fresh.
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If you have a Speedball in your Crack, what are the OA and OB voltages on the small board with that tube? That can be used as a bit of a test for whether the 12AU7 is near the end of its life or is relatively fresh.
I'm getting 62.4 OA and 75.5 OB
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Try a TungSol 12AU7 for a little more bass weighted sound. Don't buy $50 to $500 tubes until you buy several less expensive 12AU7s of different brands to get a feel for what you want. More educational, more bang for your buck.
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Try a TungSol 12AU7 for a little more bass weighted sound. Don't buy $50 to $500 tubes until you buy several less expensive 12AU7s of different brands to get a feel for what you want. More educational, more bang for your buck.
Thanks Doc! That's really solid advice especially for an impulsive buyer like me. ;D I've seen how much you advise against dumping too much money into this hobby just for the sake of it, so I just want to say I really respect your honesty. 8)
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I'm getting 62.4 OA and 75.5 OB
This is a near-new 12AU7.
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Oh also, my ECC82 is labeled K63 D9R, just noticed that recently as I was swapping the tubes out. Not sure what to make of that but I'm going to look around and determine what I even have because the ebay listing didn't specify the year or anything really. I think 63 means 1963 but I will set aside the speculation lol
The K63 D9R is a Philips date code.
K6 = ECC82 with 3 being the revision code.
D = The factory code for the Philips factory; Hamburg (Valvo) in this case.
9 should be 1959 but your R is probably a misread B -> feb. R doesn't exist in that years Philips code.
Here's the data to decipher a Philips factory code: https://frank.pocnet.net/other/Philips/PhilipsCodeListAB.pdf
As PB said. Is that the test result with the Valvo in the Crack? That's really good actually.
The best tester at the end of the days is the circuit the tube is used in. If it works, it works.
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This is a near-new 12AU7.
Oh wow! I expected you to tell me it only has a month to live lol. ;D
And that wasn't intended as a jab at how it sounds, it sounds perfectly fine. I just felt it was impossible to get one of these that isn't on its way out for so cheap. Since I made my first post, the hiss has not only gone down significantly to where I'm not fixating on it, but now it's balanced and not primarily in the left channel which was way more distracting.
9 should be 1959 but your R is probably a misread B -> feb. R doesn't exist in that years Philips code.
As PB said. Is that the test result with the Valvo in the Crack? That's really good actually.
The best tester at the end of the days is the circuit the tube is used in. If it works, it works.
No wonder I couldn't find anything when trying to google it. I did mistake the B for an R in D9B. Thank you for identifying the tube, and yes those readings are from the Valvo :D
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A lot of these tubes have been sitting around for years and years since they were last run, if at all. You need to let them run for a good while before you know what you have... John