Output Capacitor Upgrading Questions

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Offline matthewmckay

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Reply #90 on: February 10, 2012, 02:00:54 PM
A little heads up about the Bypassing...

I had zero luck trying to bypass the electrolytic coupling caps in the crack.  The least detrimental sounding that I tried was with .01uf Audiocap thetas, but I am certain the amp sounds better without them.  All of the different caps I tried, (burned in using Grainger's method for about 5 days), seemed to add some zingy, etching crap in the higher frequencies. 

I did however, have very good luck using one of the same thetas to bypass the last electrolytic in the power supply.  There is a noticeable reduction is my noise-floor with this cap in place, and since it's addition, I no longer have any desire to replace the electrolytic coupling caps with larger film ones.

I also tried a 2.2uf, 1.0uf, and .1uf Solen (individually) in the same location and found these caps to be detrimental to the sound... in ways that are hard to describe.  I found the music less involving with any of the solens in this position, and after 15-20min of listening, would have to turn the music off because it was giving me a headache.  There is a very strong difference between the solen and the thetas in this position.

Encouraged by the success in the crack, I decided to try all of these variants in the seduction power supply as well... with very similar results.  The solens sounded much worse in place than without, and the .01uf audiocap thetas made a noticeable improvement.  I have had several friends over to confirm these observations with the seduction, and it was a unanimous vote of improvement when I had the theta bypassing the final cap in the power supply.  (several A or B sessions on a selection of tracks, not indicating what I was doing when connecting or disconnecting the alligator clip)

My thoughts now...

1) Solen caps are not suitable in these bypass applications ( I will probably avoid the brand in the future )

2) Bypassing the electrolytic coupling caps in the crack does not yield positive results.

3) .01uf Audiocap thetas made a noticeable improvement in my crack and seduction power supply (not so much in the coupling bypass)

I have already ordered more thetas for additional experimenting with the quickie.



Raksasa

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Reply #91 on: February 10, 2012, 03:38:57 PM
I did however, have very good luck using one of the same thetas to bypass the last electrolytic in the power supply.

Hi Matthew,

What values did you use here ?

Is your Crack speedballed ?

Cheers,

John T.



Offline BNAL

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Reply #92 on: February 10, 2012, 03:50:25 PM
I have not had good results with Solen caps either. I did not try it in the Crack, but in other projects and never liked the results.  I have a 2.0uF Clarity bypassing the last electrolytic on the power supply and like the results. Currently I'm burning in 0.22uF Russian Teflon caps to bypass the electrolytic output caps. I hope that I get better results. I will make sure that I give them enough time to get good and burn in. I'm currently two weeks in and plan on giving them another week.

Brad Nalitt
Iron Upgraded S.E.X. Amp 2.0
Foreplay III
Quickie w/PJCCS
Eros Phono
Blumenstein Orca Speakers, Baby Benthic Subs
S.E.X.y Speakers W/FT17H Horn Tweeters
Thorens TD 125 MkII W/ Shure M97xE JICO SAS Stylus


Offline matthewmckay

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Reply #93 on: February 10, 2012, 03:55:17 PM
.01uf /600v was the value for the thetas, I have the speedball installed, alps blue pot, and CMC swiss red copper RCAs, ... other than this and the bypass cap, the amp is stock.

here is a link.. they are $4.91

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=027-700



Offline earwaxxer

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Reply #94 on: February 10, 2012, 04:30:42 PM
A little heads up about the Bypassing...

I had zero luck trying to bypass the electrolytic coupling caps in the crack.  The least detrimental sounding that I tried was with .01uf Audiocap thetas, but I am certain the amp sounds better without them.  All of the different caps I tried, (burned in using Grainger's method for about 5 days), seemed to add some zingy, etching crap in the higher frequencies. 

I did however, have very good luck using one of the same thetas to bypass the last electrolytic in the power supply.  There is a noticeable reduction is my noise-floor with this cap in place, and since it's addition, I no longer have any desire to replace the electrolytic coupling caps with larger film ones.

I also tried a 2.2uf, 1.0uf, and .1uf Solen (individually) in the same location and found these caps to be detrimental to the sound... in ways that are hard to describe.  I found the music less involving with any of the solens in this position, and after 15-20min of listening, would have to turn the music off because it was giving me a headache.  There is a very strong difference between the solen and the thetas in this position.

Encouraged by the success in the crack, I decided to try all of these variants in the seduction power supply as well... with very similar results.  The solens sounded much worse in place than without, and the .01uf audiocap thetas made a noticeable improvement.  I have had several friends over to confirm these observations with the seduction, and it was a unanimous vote of improvement when I had the theta bypassing the final cap in the power supply.  (several A or B sessions on a selection of tracks, not indicating what I was doing when connecting or disconnecting the alligator clip)

My thoughts now...

1) Solen caps are not suitable in these bypass applications ( I will probably avoid the brand in the future )

2) Bypassing the electrolytic coupling caps in the crack does not yield positive results.

3) .01uf Audiocap thetas made a noticeable improvement in my crack and seduction power supply (not so much in the coupling bypass)

I have already ordered more thetas for additional experimenting with the quickie.

Interesting experience with bypassing.... From what I have read there have been more reports of negative effects from bypassing attempts than positive. I was very skeptical going into the whole concept.

I did have a very positive effect from bypassing my ampholms paper/oils with mundorf siliver/oils in my speaker crossover. I was surprised. I really didnt expect it to work. I just happened to have the mundorfs around and I thought I would give it a try. I was planning to use the mundorfs as a coupling cap but I didnt end up building that amp. Anyway - not sure how a pure mundorf silver/oil crossover would compare - cant affort it! Quite happy for now.

Eric
Emotiva XPA-2, Magnepan MMG (mod), Quickie (mod), JRiver, Wyrd4sound uLink, Schiit Gungnir, JPS Digital power cord, MIT power cord, JPS Labs ultraconductor wire throughout, HSU sub. powered by Crown.


Raksasa

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Reply #95 on: February 10, 2012, 04:43:58 PM
.01uf /600v was the value for the thetas, I have the speedball installed, alps blue pot, and CMC swiss red copper RCAs, ... other than this and the bypass cap, the amp is stock.

here is a link.. they are $4.91

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=027-700

Thanks Matthew.  (https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi204.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb272%2Fraksasajohn%2FSmilies%2Fthumbzup.gif&hash=1da0f9a591a720f4cb896f78b18d225e8cb6b4c8)

John



Raksasa

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Reply #96 on: February 10, 2012, 05:48:42 PM
Hello again,

I just found some Mundorf Supreme silver/gold/oil 0.1 uf 2% 1200 vdc caps lying around.

No idea what I got them for.  (https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi204.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb272%2Fraksasajohn%2FSmilies%2Fpuzzled.gif&hash=5d20d8d3017679a801d32e547069cacfaed4beac)
Probably for bypassing something in a valve amp.

Might try one bypassing final PS electro. Is this cap OK for this purpose in Crack ?

Can someone please confirm which is the FINAL PS cap - 1, 2 or 3 ? I didn't build my Crack, BH did.
I'm guessing 3.

(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi204.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb272%2Fraksasajohn%2FaaaaPro%2FPhotos%2FHi%2520Fi%2FBH%2520CRACK%2FBH-Crack-PS-caps-001-.jpg&hash=806e4dad1261421f20a4c9bdc33848e3b908798c)

Cheers,

John
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 05:50:16 PM by Raksasa »



Offline BNAL

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Reply #97 on: February 10, 2012, 05:54:47 PM
John,

It is number 1.

Brad Nalitt
Iron Upgraded S.E.X. Amp 2.0
Foreplay III
Quickie w/PJCCS
Eros Phono
Blumenstein Orca Speakers, Baby Benthic Subs
S.E.X.y Speakers W/FT17H Horn Tweeters
Thorens TD 125 MkII W/ Shure M97xE JICO SAS Stylus


Raksasa

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Reply #98 on: February 10, 2012, 06:06:36 PM
John,

It is number 1.

(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi204.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb272%2Fraksasajohn%2FSmilies%2Fredface.gif&hash=1122a9a28e2d1698a691faece008d93cda37c602)

Shows how much I know.  (https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi204.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb272%2Fraksasajohn%2FSmilies%2Feyeroll.gif&hash=adbf1d904090a493ffbf3181ba7df90325936626)

Thanks Brad  (https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi204.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb272%2Fraksasajohn%2FSmilies%2Fthumbzup.gif&hash=1da0f9a591a720f4cb896f78b18d225e8cb6b4c8)



Offline Noskipallwd

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Reply #99 on: February 10, 2012, 08:21:05 PM
A little more about bypassing... There are a few different opinions on the pros and cons of bypassing. If you go to the Audience (Auricap) site they state that one should never bypass output capacitors. Their reasoning is that this can cause smearing of the sound. When you bypass you are splitting your signal in two, (each channel), from what I understand differences in charge and discharge rate, however small, can cause an audible difference in the signal when recombined(smearing). There is also the possibility of parasitic capacitence, there are others here with much greater knowledge on these subjects than I, maybe they will chime in.

Cheers,
Shawn

Shawn Prigmore


Offline Paul Joppa

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Reply #100 on: February 10, 2012, 08:55:16 PM
There's another theory, which suggests using a small resistor in series with the electrolytic - something around an ohm - and bypassing the combination. The ESL of the electrolytic can resonate with the bypass, and the resistor damps that resonance. Problem is that you need to know the ESL and the bypass capacitance to determine the best resistor value. I don't know anyone who has tried this, but it makes sense to me that a small resonance in the top octave could have bad audible effects. When I get some time I'll see what specs I can find on the Crack output cap.

Paul Joppa


Offline Laudanum

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Reply #101 on: February 11, 2012, 12:31:12 AM
This is interesting.   I didnt purchase any caps specifically for bypassing the last PS electrolytic in Crack.  I have a bunch of film caps around but most are very low value or too high of a value that I didnt consider them for bypassing.   So, I experimented with what I had on hand.  One of these was indeed a .01uf audiocap theta (I have a few of these left over, used some as crossover bypass caps).  I also tried the same value Dayton film and foil as well as a 1.0uf Solen or Axon.  I even tried a low value tubular mylar cap.  To be honest,  I really didnt notice any real improvement with any of these caps.  Certianly though, I didnt hear any negatives, just simply perceived no real difference at all.   I wrote this off as maybe the value being too low.  I increased the cap size by going away from the audio caps I had and I finally heard what I perceived as a subtle improvement in when I bypassed with a Panasonic 2.2 or 2.0uF (cant remember which) polyprop film cap.  I attributed this subtle improvement to the caps maybe filtering some high frequency noise.  But again, I attributed it to the larger cap value moreso than the "status" of the cap itself.  I later picked up some larger value Solen and Mundorf caps, around 2 or 2.2 uF with the intent on replacing the panasonic in Crack and using these in other bottlehead kits.  I never got around to replacing the Panny though as it did provide the subtle improvement I mentioned.  I can revist the small value Theta I guess and give it another listen.  However, I have a feeling I may be comparing the Theta to, what effectively amounts to, listening with no bypass cap seeing how my non golden ears heard no difference with the Theta, and those other caps I initially tried.   But prompted by this topic, I may consider experimenting with the PS bypass caps I installed in FPIII and Seduction. I installed a Mundorf MKP in one and a Solen in the other as bypass caps as part of the original build, again, thinking it was probably more of the caps uF value than the cap itself.   Understand ... Im not saying that improvements cant be had with different and/or more expensive caps.  Just saying that I didnt hear that difference with the smaller value caps I tried in Crack.  But again, I think it may be worth some experimenting with FPIII and Seduction since I didnt do any comparative listening in those amps.  Of course, everyones ears and systems are different.  I know that there are a few here that have used basic MKP caps, Solen, Mundorf etc. as bypass caps for the PS electrolytic.  They may very well be hearing positives using these caps instead of the negatives impressions expressed here by Matthew just as he is hearing improvement with .01uf Thetas where I heard no real difference.  Just based on the experimenting I did with Crack, I have to say that the small improvement I noted with the PS bypass cap doesnt compare to the improvement when replacing the lytic output caps with large MKP film caps.  The stock lytics sound good, but replacing with Film caps made for a very nice improvement.  Not earth shattering but a good bit beyond what I would consider "subtle".  To me, it was a much larger difference/imporvement compared to bypassing the PS lytic.  Again, we all have different ears and different systems but I wouldnt write off considering replacing the output lytics with film caps because of positive results achieved with bypassing the PS cap.  I tend to reach the diminishing returns justification "defense" sooner than most others in this hobby but I wouldnt consider being there before upgrading the output caps to films after doing so myself.  It was on my short list based on others results and for me, well worth it.

Of course, just my non tech savvy opinions and YMMV widely.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 12:35:41 AM by Laudanum »

Desmond G.


Offline BNAL

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Reply #102 on: February 11, 2012, 04:15:09 AM
Right now my intention is to try the 0.22 Russian Teflon caps. I doubt that I would have gone out and bought them, but since I had them lying around I figured I'd give them a try. I want to put Mundorf 100uF MPS caps in to replace the electrolytics.

The only changes I have made at this point is to the power supply. These include a bypass cap and choke. So far these changes seem to have made an improvement to my ears and I think the amp sounds great. I can't imagine that the Speedball can make it that much better.

I will also have to look at doing similar PS upgrades to my Foreplay III, but I have been doing most of my listening with the Crack lately.

Brad Nalitt
Iron Upgraded S.E.X. Amp 2.0
Foreplay III
Quickie w/PJCCS
Eros Phono
Blumenstein Orca Speakers, Baby Benthic Subs
S.E.X.y Speakers W/FT17H Horn Tweeters
Thorens TD 125 MkII W/ Shure M97xE JICO SAS Stylus


Raksasa

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Reply #103 on: February 11, 2012, 04:39:42 AM
Here's a question for the technically minded:

Is it possible to use Metallised Film caps (polyester or polypropylene) to completely replace polarised electroes in PS caps of an amp like the Crack ?
What would be the PROs & CONs of doing this ? Any actual advantage to the film caps ?

Here's a CON:  Size.

Didn't old low power tube amps use PIO in PS ? They aren't polarised are they ?

Not very practical, but I'm just interested to know.

Cheers,

John

EDIT:  This continues in a new thread in Technical Topics, here: http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,2614.msg21206.html#msg21206
Pls respond to this query there. Thanks.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 06:50:36 AM by Raksasa »



Offline earwaxxer

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Reply #104 on: February 11, 2012, 04:48:56 AM
We are talking about wiring caps in parallel to achieve the bypass right!?

Eric
Emotiva XPA-2, Magnepan MMG (mod), Quickie (mod), JRiver, Wyrd4sound uLink, Schiit Gungnir, JPS Digital power cord, MIT power cord, JPS Labs ultraconductor wire throughout, HSU sub. powered by Crown.