Tube Rolling w/Crack

Dr. Toobz · 748300

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Offline palmfish

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Reply #555 on: August 08, 2013, 08:09:07 AM
I have been reading and learning all I can about tubes for the past few days. It's really been a lot of fun. A little head-spinning too though - these threads have been very, very helpful and i formative! Ive been crosschecking other websites as I learn about another tube and now Ive got a few stores bookmarked and my eBay watchlist is filled with multiple pages.

Yesterday, on a whim, I went ahead and bought a couple of tubes for my yet-to-be-completed Crack. I got a "NIB NOS" CBS Hytron 6AS7G and a CBS 5814A - not because I think they will sound better than the stock Chatham 6080 and unmarked 12AU7, but because they look really nice and Im a little OCD and I like the idea of the matching brand tubes with red CBS logos.

I better get this amp finished or else I spend a bunch of money on other things I probably don't need...  :D



Offline Doc B.

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Reply #556 on: August 08, 2013, 08:29:44 AM
If I can throw just a little sanity in here -

1) There is no universal best
2) Your best probably isn't my best
3) Price has nothing to do with whether you will like a tube or not. The only person who will always find the most expensive component to sound best simply substitutes a need to show off for having an ear. "Only" is a little misleading here, there are very many of these people. Just go to CES to see large flocks of them.

When the urge to buy the flavor of the week boutique item next strikes my suggestion is to stand back and look at why you decided to DIY. Wasn't it to learn enough to control yourself how your system sounds? Buy a bunch of cheap tubes and learn what kind of differences you can hear. Then form a judgment about what you like and don't care for, and focus your effort on getting there. Try other changes too, and see how much impact they have relative to tube changes. There might be other things that make a lot more difference. Unfortunately this doesn't apply to cans, but I think most of our customers would be better served by learning how to make their listening room sound better than by buying a new boutique capacitor. I also see a lot of guys with expensive headphones and rather mediocre sources. One needs to learn to balance all of these things rather than obsess about one.

Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President For Life
Bottlehead Corp.


Offline btrancho

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Reply #557 on: August 08, 2013, 09:03:25 AM
If I can throw just a little sanity in here -

````````````
 One needs to learn to balance all of these things rather than obsess about one.
+100

I often think that the current crazy prices of some FOTM tubes is a kin to the great Tulip Mania of 1637 .

Bob Trancho


Offline earwaxxer

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Reply #558 on: August 08, 2013, 09:28:25 AM
Yea.... I remember that..

Eric
Emotiva XPA-2, Magnepan MMG (mod), Quickie (mod), JRiver, Wyrd4sound uLink, Schiit Gungnir, JPS Digital power cord, MIT power cord, JPS Labs ultraconductor wire throughout, HSU sub. powered by Crown.


Offline adamct

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Reply #559 on: August 08, 2013, 09:33:37 AM
Well...here is my take:

1. I find tube rolling has a surprisingly small effect on sound. I have a GEC 6AS7G brown base. In fact, I have two of them. Do I think they sound significantly different or better than the other 6AS7Gs, 6080s, 5998s, etc. that I've tried? Not really. They happen to be among the quietest tubes I've used, but I think that is just luck of the draw and specific to these particular tubes, not something that is inherent in the GEC design. I would expect there to be numerous "cheap" tubes that are just as quiet, if you can find the right one. And you can probably find any number of GEC 6AS7Gs that are very noisy. My basic position is this: I wouldn't bother "upgrading" the tubes in the Crack. Frankly, every tube I've tried has sounded excellent, and differences between tubes have been small to non-existent.

2. The drive to upgrade tubes and caps primarily stems from one source: insecurity. Something else might be better, and I'm worried that I don't have the best, so I might as well spend a bunch of money to be on the safe side. Feel free to disagree if you want, but I know that is how it works with me. It isn't that I feel a need to show off (my wife and daughters have zero interest in this stuff), it's just that I want to listen to the best possible sound. In the absence of first-hand knowledge about what sounds best, it is easiest to just spend money. That doesn't necessarily mean that what I wind up with ACTUALLY sounds the best, but it calms my anxiety. [Look, I'm wierd, OK? At least I know this about myself.]

3. I'm not yet convinced that upgrading the caps to film caps makes a huge difference, or that there are enormous differences between film caps. There may be, but the challenges in trying to rigorously test and identify those differences strike me as insurmountable. Caps may make a bigger difference in speaker crossovers, and maybe that is why we expect them to make a big difference, but I don't know if they actually do. Yet I still "upgrade" caps because I am a small, insecure and weak man.

4. This is a hobby. If upgrading caps or tubes or whatever floats your boat, then go for it. Notwithstanding my weak-willed ways, I don't see how silver wire is or could possible be better than copper wire, given that copper wire is usually thicker than silver wire, therefore more than compensating for the small advantage in silver's conductivity. But, if people want to blow money on silver wire, that's no skin off my back. I find installing film caps, and trying to figure out how to fit them, is kind of fun, so I do it.

5. It is virtually impossible to make an informed decision on how to change your system's sound. Suppose you find that your Crack is lacking in bass, or that the treble is a bit hot. Or the dynamics are lacking...whatever it is that you want to improve upon. Now, how will you go about figuring out which tube or cap to install? Pick any tube or cap, and to the extent that you can find any reviews at all, they will be reviews in someone else's system, using different components. Reviewer A will tell you that tube X has great bass punch. Reviewer B will tell you that the bass punch of tube X is sorely lacking when compared to tube Y. But Reviewer A has a separate review where he says tube Y has the worst bass he's ever heard. So, will tube X give you more or less bass? The same thing applies to caps. Reviews are all over the place, highly subjective, and basicaly worth a hill of beans. So you wind up buying something random, sticking it in, and seeing if your system still makes music that is vaguely acceptable.

6. If you want to make an immediate, obvious, objective and significant change to the sound of your system, then buy new headphones. I like to say that on a 10 point scale, the magnitude of the change in sound is 9 if changing your headphones, it is generally 2 when switching between amps using the same basic technology (e.g. among solid state amps, WOT tube amps, or OTL tube amps), it is maybe a 4 when switching between amps using different technology (e.g. switching between a solid state amp and an OTL amp), maybe a 1 when changing caps or tubes, and, I personally believe, something like a 0 when switching between DACs that cost more than $100, after equalizing for the strength of their output signal (I'm not a big believer in differences between DACs, but that didn't stop me from buying one for $1,000 that sounds just like all my other DACs...).

Best regards,
Adam



Offline Doc B.

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Reply #560 on: August 08, 2013, 10:26:38 AM
I agree except for #5. One can make an informed decision if one is methodical and takes the time to build a set of concepts that works for them. For example, after doing several rooms and learning what I can from some well informed friends I can go into a room with a pretty good idea of how I would treat it - kill early reflections, get a certain number of sones of absorption into the room, find the bass problems and work around them, etc. On the component level I can go into a design development with a pretty good idea of how I want the power supply and regulation done based upon having done it a lot of different ways and from those experiments refining the way that has floated to the top for my hearing.

Like anything else it's a matter of building experience. The buzz on the internet about mods is a great place to start, but tailoring the particular idea to your taste is where the real satisfaction enters the picture.

Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President For Life
Bottlehead Corp.


Offline earwaxxer

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Reply #561 on: August 08, 2013, 10:51:01 AM
True.... Actually the sad truth is that EVERYTHING makes a difference. To what extent - is what is in question. The variables are daunting. It's unsolved, and will continue to be. All we can do is, like playing chess, make the best possible moves we can, given the information and skills etc. at our disposal. It's probably unwise to move your king out early, as it may be unwise spending too much money on component "X".

Eric
Emotiva XPA-2, Magnepan MMG (mod), Quickie (mod), JRiver, Wyrd4sound uLink, Schiit Gungnir, JPS Digital power cord, MIT power cord, JPS Labs ultraconductor wire throughout, HSU sub. powered by Crown.


w0lfd0g

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Reply #562 on: August 08, 2013, 09:46:55 PM
If I told you that the most expensive combination of possible tubes that you could put into the Crack cost as much as the Crack kit itself, would you still want to buy it? Or do you just mean a "6080" tube and a "12AU7" specifically?

The Comprehensive 6080/6AS7 Rolling Guide:
http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,3453.0.html

Hi Nick,

Can you give me some impressions on the G.E.C Brown Base 6AS7G and the Western Electric 421A? I'm using Tung-sol 5998 (actually it's Chatham 2399) and I'm tending to upgrade to the 421A or G.E.C. What are the differences between them? And are they worth the premium between the 5998s and 421A/G.E.Cs?

And of course I'm using Speedballed Crack for this.

Best regards,

Kratos.

Hi Kratos

There is a NOS GEC 6AS7G going cheap on eBay international atm (auction with one day to go) - The best option, as the others have said, is to experiment and decide.   The beauty of tubes is that you can sell them on if they don't suit you.

Cheers



Offline Nick Tam

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Reply #563 on: August 09, 2013, 05:20:32 AM
They'll probably go for 150+ by the end of the day.

Also the problem with buying tubes is that I find that they have lesser resell value if you bought them and you don't have a tester to affirm that they are worth what you bought them for... because recently I found out that a NOS NIB TS5998 that I had sitting around tests lower than the used TS5998 that I have in my Crack this whole time after spending some time and investing on a tube tester. And don't trust that tubes are NOS just because they're boxed... some time ago there was an auction for a bunch of Sylvania Gold Brand 6080 tubes. I've got 17 of these which are, all boxed and "NOS" as seller claims without any testing. Since I had no projects going on after finishing my Crack modding, I went onto buying and restoring a Hickok 799 and 2 B&K 667 testers. None of the tubes pegged 100% nominal Gm on the Hickok and 100+ emissions on the B&K. Morale of story? Tube sellers calibrate their testers so that their readings are higher OR tubes that have been sitting around for 20+ years simply could not have nominal GM OR my testers all suck.


If I told you that the most expensive combination of possible tubes that you could put into the Crack cost as much as the Crack kit itself, would you still want to buy it? Or do you just mean a "6080" tube and a "12AU7" specifically?

The Comprehensive 6080/6AS7 Rolling Guide:
http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,3453.0.html

Hi Nick,

Can you give me some impressions on the G.E.C Brown Base 6AS7G and the Western Electric 421A? I'm using Tung-sol 5998 (actually it's Chatham 2399) and I'm tending to upgrade to the 421A or G.E.C. What are the differences between them? And are they worth the premium between the 5998s and 421A/G.E.Cs?

And of course I'm using Speedballed Crack for this.

Best regards,

Kratos.

Hi Kratos

There is a NOS GEC 6AS7G going cheap on eBay international atm (auction with one day to go) - The best option, as the others have said, is to experiment and decide.   The beauty of tubes is that you can sell them on if they don't suit you.

Cheers

Bottlehead Crack

Source: Fostex HP-A4
Cans: Sennheiser HD700
Sylvania GB6080 + Sylvania VT-231


w0lfd0g

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Reply #564 on: August 09, 2013, 11:22:09 AM
^

Yep - A dead tube can still come with a box

Yep - It is possible for NOS tubes to have less than nominal new 100% emissions

Is this always the case?  No



Offline 2wo

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Reply #565 on: August 09, 2013, 12:51:38 PM
NOS tube misrepresented on eBay? Shocked! Shocked I tell you...John

John Scanlon


w0lfd0g

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Reply #566 on: August 09, 2013, 01:39:14 PM
^

ROFL



Offline adamct

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Reply #567 on: August 09, 2013, 07:07:04 PM
OK, someone help me out. In January I bought one of those 6SN7 --> 12AU7 adapters on eBay. I got the one that appeared to be high-quality, with a nice ceramic socket and gold-plated pin holes. I think several others here have the same adapter. I made sure I got the 6.3V version. When it arrived, I tried it out with a couple of 6SN7s, but they all seemed noisy, although they were quiet in other amps. I chalked it up to some sort of bad "synergy" between the tubes and the Crack (w/ Speedball). I put the adapter to the side for a few months, until I got a couple more 6SN7s. Again, I pulled the adapter out and tried them with the Crack. Still noisy. Then I decided it must be the adapter. I contacted the seller, and although I was outside the complaint period, they gracefully sent me a new one at no charge (fast shipping from China, too, which is unusual). Tonight I try out the new adapter and...same problem.

Here is the exact situation: the noise is stronger in the left channel than the right. Much stronger. At low volume levels, the noise changes with the volume pot, but quickly hits maximum noise levels and stays constant after that. The tube plays music just fine - no cracking or popping or anything, just noise when I hit pause. My Crack is literally DEAD SILENT when I use it with my other input tubes, without an adapter. The noise doesn't change when I jiggle the RCA inputs. There shouldn't be any interference from other devices, as there aren't any nearby, and (again) the amp is quiet with other tubes. And the noise is the same no matter which 6SN7 tubes I use.

Anyone else have a similar experience? If so, how did you solve it? I know some people like 6SN7s with the Crack, but I can't imagine anyone would find this level of noise acceptable, so what I have must not be normal. Suggestions? What could be causing these problems?

Best regards,
Adam



Offline Aeolus Kratos

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Reply #568 on: August 10, 2013, 06:26:54 AM
If I told you that the most expensive combination of possible tubes that you could put into the Crack cost as much as the Crack kit itself, would you still want to buy it? Or do you just mean a "6080" tube and a "12AU7" specifically?

The Comprehensive 6080/6AS7 Rolling Guide:
http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,3453.0.html

Hi Nick,

Can you give me some impressions on the G.E.C Brown Base 6AS7G and the Western Electric 421A? I'm using Tung-sol 5998 (actually it's Chatham 2399) and I'm tending to upgrade to the 421A or G.E.C. What are the differences between them? And are they worth the premium between the 5998s and 421A/G.E.Cs?

And of course I'm using Speedballed Crack for this.

Best regards,

Kratos.

Hi Kratos

There is a NOS GEC 6AS7G going cheap on eBay international atm (auction with one day to go) - The best option, as the others have said, is to experiment and decide.   The beauty of tubes is that you can sell them on if they don't suit you.

Cheers

Hi w0lfd0g,

Thanks for your suggestion, but I've just searched on Ebay and I could not find it. These GECs are all well over $170, or even > $300 for a piece. I found them somewhat ridiculous 'cause I'm not planning to buy just a power tube which costs nearly as much as my Speedballed Crack :)

Unfortunately, I'm not living in the USA, so it would be much more difficult for me to sell tubes if they don't suit me. And I have no chance to listen to a tube it before I buy it to make sure it is a good and quite tube :(

I have sometimes try to blind buy some stuff that I like, because I can not have a chance to try them: the Little Dot MK3 and the Darkvoice 336SE, but all of them disappointed me. But now I'm very happy with my latest blind-buy purchase. The Crack is simply one of the best amps I've heard with my beloved HD650, I've tried HD650 with various amps, including B22 4 boards and Burson Audio HA-160 :)

Best regards,
Kratos.



Offline Nick Tam

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